Aa
Who is protected when you lie to a child?
My partner's sister had a DUI a few days ago and spent a night in jail. The DUI occurred while her 9-year-old daughter was at school. The woman called her mother (also my partner's mom) to arrange to pick up the daughter at school and spend the night with her. Between the sister and the mother, they "decided" to tell the daughter that mom went into the hospital overnight for a medical problem, but that everything would "turn out fine."
The following day, the sister was bailed out of jail by her mother, and they are sticking to the hospital story with the daughter.
This entire scenario has outraged my partner. He feels there is never any time that lying to a child is appropriate. He was told what had happened by his mother, who was complicit in this set-up, and he let his mother know how he felt. He has not spoken to his sister.
I tend to side with my partner on this. Do parents do this so that they don't look bad in front of their children? Don't children "learn" from these situations? If mom f*cks up and has to go to jail, then isn't that something that should be shared with the child (in appropriate terminology or whatever, of course)?
I just wanted some opinions on this situation. My partner may call his sister and tell her how he feels (it's his niece who was lied to), but I know he wants to cool off about it for a little while too. What's done is done, he's not real close with this sister, and I'm pretty sure there will be no "retraction" of this story with the daughter.
The following day, the sister was bailed out of jail by her mother, and they are sticking to the hospital story with the daughter.
This entire scenario has outraged my partner. He feels there is never any time that lying to a child is appropriate. He was told what had happened by his mother, who was complicit in this set-up, and he let his mother know how he felt. He has not spoken to his sister.
I tend to side with my partner on this. Do parents do this so that they don't look bad in front of their children? Don't children "learn" from these situations? If mom f*cks up and has to go to jail, then isn't that something that should be shared with the child (in appropriate terminology or whatever, of course)?
I just wanted some opinions on this situation. My partner may call his sister and tell her how he feels (it's his niece who was lied to), but I know he wants to cool off about it for a little while too. What's done is done, he's not real close with this sister, and I'm pretty sure there will be no "retraction" of this story with the daughter.
Well, I don't know Barnbabe if you are still searching for opinions, but I have one too:) I appreciate your help and expertise in my post, so let me see if I can offer you my opinion about this situation.
I work with children and I will tell you its probably best not to get into specifics with her. If mom was an alcoholic then I would say, this is definitely a conversation to be had with her 9 year old as most likely the child is already aware of alcohol and its detrimental effects on her family situation. If this isn't mom's typical behavior, and her daughter doesn't have a clue about her mother's drinking, I would avoid the jail bit and possibly explain this in a safer way to her. Such as mom made a mistake and she has to go to court and talk to the judge. I am not a fan of lying to children because I think kids are much smarter and more intuitive than we even know! However, I know this may be more information than she can handle at such a young age - and as I am sure you know, children are very egocentric. It could be an excellent thing to share with her as she gets older and is more prone to peer pressure and alcohol. Mom and daughter can use this to bond and to explore the dangers drinking and driving. At 9 years old, she will hear mom went to jail, mom might go back to jail, mom has to go to court and pay big fines, and this will most likely make her very upset. At 16 years old, she would hear mom made a stupid decision which could have had even more serious of a consequence, and she is lucky to be alive!
I understand your partner being upset with the lying, but I have sat with children who are not restricted from the adult conversation and tell me information that they struggle/are upset about in regards to their parents relationships, finances, and life struggles. Information that I don't believe they should always be privy to, nor should they worry about at such a young age.
I work with children and I will tell you its probably best not to get into specifics with her. If mom was an alcoholic then I would say, this is definitely a conversation to be had with her 9 year old as most likely the child is already aware of alcohol and its detrimental effects on her family situation. If this isn't mom's typical behavior, and her daughter doesn't have a clue about her mother's drinking, I would avoid the jail bit and possibly explain this in a safer way to her. Such as mom made a mistake and she has to go to court and talk to the judge. I am not a fan of lying to children because I think kids are much smarter and more intuitive than we even know! However, I know this may be more information than she can handle at such a young age - and as I am sure you know, children are very egocentric. It could be an excellent thing to share with her as she gets older and is more prone to peer pressure and alcohol. Mom and daughter can use this to bond and to explore the dangers drinking and driving. At 9 years old, she will hear mom went to jail, mom might go back to jail, mom has to go to court and pay big fines, and this will most likely make her very upset. At 16 years old, she would hear mom made a stupid decision which could have had even more serious of a consequence, and she is lucky to be alive!
I understand your partner being upset with the lying, but I have sat with children who are not restricted from the adult conversation and tell me information that they struggle/are upset about in regards to their parents relationships, finances, and life struggles. Information that I don't believe they should always be privy to, nor should they worry about at such a young age.
As you have stated, you do not have children....so I will not be offended by your post. I think you like to offend people....
I would not have made any excuse. I would have told my child Grandma would be picking her up. End of story. Kids do not need to know all details of their parents lives. It was one night. If there is legal action and a jail sentence (highly doubtful on a first offense, at least here in Canada) of course the child needs to be told in an age appropriate manner.
I have honestly answered all the hard questions that my children have asked. Even when it made me uncomfortable. Have I told them every detail of my life? Absolutely not....but if asked I will always tell.
This little girl has the right to a safe, healthy, happy childhood. I am sure she loves her mother deeply and will be very hurt when she learns about this, hopefully she will be much older.
I would not have made any excuse. I would have told my child Grandma would be picking her up. End of story. Kids do not need to know all details of their parents lives. It was one night. If there is legal action and a jail sentence (highly doubtful on a first offense, at least here in Canada) of course the child needs to be told in an age appropriate manner.
I have honestly answered all the hard questions that my children have asked. Even when it made me uncomfortable. Have I told them every detail of my life? Absolutely not....but if asked I will always tell.
This little girl has the right to a safe, healthy, happy childhood. I am sure she loves her mother deeply and will be very hurt when she learns about this, hopefully she will be much older.
Isn't it hypocritical to be dishonest with your kids but expect honesty from them in return? Don't most parents try and instill in their kids how important honesty is in healthy relationships and in their dealings out in the real world?
We have to model for them the behaviors we want to see.
I don't have kids, so I guess maybe I can't relate to the dilemma this scenario might have posed. I just think it's always best to tell the truth.
You say you wouldn't have used the "hospital" story if this happened to you. Meaning you feel you could dream up a better "excuse?" A 9-year-old kid certainly has the ability to ask "Where?" if you say you won't be home tonight without giving a reason. Then what do you say?
I'm still not comfortable about withholding information from a child because it "might get out at school." That's one of the worst reasons to lie to a child. You are not protecting anybody by doing that except perhaps the reputation of the parent who is doing the lying. That's what bothers me about it. It ends up being not about "best interests of the child." It ends up being about "what will the teachers or other kids think of this kid's mother?" Try and convince me otherwise, but I just can't get behind this line of reasoning.
If you lie to your kid, then what you need to be teaching them is that "it's okay to lie sometimes," not "please tell the truth, honesty is the right thing to do." It's the hypocrisy that gets me.
We have to model for them the behaviors we want to see.
I don't have kids, so I guess maybe I can't relate to the dilemma this scenario might have posed. I just think it's always best to tell the truth.
You say you wouldn't have used the "hospital" story if this happened to you. Meaning you feel you could dream up a better "excuse?" A 9-year-old kid certainly has the ability to ask "Where?" if you say you won't be home tonight without giving a reason. Then what do you say?
I'm still not comfortable about withholding information from a child because it "might get out at school." That's one of the worst reasons to lie to a child. You are not protecting anybody by doing that except perhaps the reputation of the parent who is doing the lying. That's what bothers me about it. It ends up being not about "best interests of the child." It ends up being about "what will the teachers or other kids think of this kid's mother?" Try and convince me otherwise, but I just can't get behind this line of reasoning.
If you lie to your kid, then what you need to be teaching them is that "it's okay to lie sometimes," not "please tell the truth, honesty is the right thing to do." It's the hypocrisy that gets me.
I'm really proud of you, Barn Babe. I believe honesty is the way to go...there is always a way to communicate with a child--it just takes time to think through things. Children can sense when we're not honest with them. I have 2 kids -- they'd much rather me be honest than to keep things from them. If they found out I was lying they would be devastated....which would lead to deep hurt and rebellion. Just my thoughts...
I have always tried to be truthful with my children. I can't imagine what I would have done in this situation....certainly I wouldn't have told my kids I was in the hospital....
I hope this was a one time occurance and your sil is not in trouble.
Regarding kids finding out at school, this could create huge problems for the little girl as kids can be very cruel. And it could mean that her little friends' are no longer allowed to play with her. Their parents would probably be very concerned about proper supervision (with good reason).
I hope this was a one time occurance and your sil is not in trouble.
Regarding kids finding out at school, this could create huge problems for the little girl as kids can be very cruel. And it could mean that her little friends' are no longer allowed to play with her. Their parents would probably be very concerned about proper supervision (with good reason).
Holy cow--you're not admitting to a miracle inspired by "magical thinking," are you?! ;-D
Seriously though, I do hope for the best for your partner's niece. All children deserve to have truthful parents that they can trust and confide in for anything. That kind of open communication and honesty is a wonderful thing to have between parent(s) and child(ren).
To agree or disagree some other time (probably disagree, huh?), ttyl.
Best Regards,
Your Personal HeadACHE :-)
Seriously though, I do hope for the best for your partner's niece. All children deserve to have truthful parents that they can trust and confide in for anything. That kind of open communication and honesty is a wonderful thing to have between parent(s) and child(ren).
To agree or disagree some other time (probably disagree, huh?), ttyl.
Best Regards,
Your Personal HeadACHE :-)
Well, ACHE and I agree on something.
I guess miracles do happen.
If you believe in magical thinking. :D
I guess miracles do happen.
If you believe in magical thinking. :D
Thanks for all the feedback.
I'm not sure what the situation is with the sister and her drinking. Every time we've been at their family gatherings, she never drank anything if she did the driving (100+ miles), so she seemed to have some sense of responsibility about that. According to my partner's mother (the kid's grandmother), the woman has not had a drink since the occurrence and appears to take seriously what has happened. She is between jobs at the moment, and if she's sitting around home depressed, then I can see how she may have escalated her drinking. And I agree that this happening during the day is very problematic.
I should add that there's no custody issue here, either, so they didn't lie to the daughter because of a fear of losing custody - this girl was a sperm donor baby, and the woman is raising her alone.
All I know is my partner is crazy about his niece and he's often spoken of how great a job his sister is doing in raising this girl, so I don't think he "has it out for his sister." He was just shocked that the girl was lied to. He and his sister get along fine, they just don't see one another that often because of the geographic distance.
I'm not sure I agree with lying to a child because she might start talking about it at school, like "My mom was in jail." Again, who are you trying to protect by doing that? If all you parents followed this rule, you'd never let your kids witness any bad sh*t in your household, and sh*t happens all the time because, as we all know, the majority of families are pretty freaking dysfunctional.
I'm still on my partner's side about this. I should add that he's an E.R. doctor, and he sees dysfunctional parents and their kids all the time in his work in less-than-ideal, often critical situations, and I'm sure that his clinical experiences have impacted his feelings in this situation. He loves treating kids (he missed his calling as a pediatrician, as far as I'm concerned) when they come into the E.R., and he and I have discussed adopting a kid as a possibility in the future.
We are planning to see the sister and the niece and the mother in a couple of weeks, so it'll be interesting to see if the woman does any drinking. I've never seen her drink more than a couple of glasses of wine in an evening on the dozen or so occasions we've spent time with them.
I'm not sure what the situation is with the sister and her drinking. Every time we've been at their family gatherings, she never drank anything if she did the driving (100+ miles), so she seemed to have some sense of responsibility about that. According to my partner's mother (the kid's grandmother), the woman has not had a drink since the occurrence and appears to take seriously what has happened. She is between jobs at the moment, and if she's sitting around home depressed, then I can see how she may have escalated her drinking. And I agree that this happening during the day is very problematic.
I should add that there's no custody issue here, either, so they didn't lie to the daughter because of a fear of losing custody - this girl was a sperm donor baby, and the woman is raising her alone.
All I know is my partner is crazy about his niece and he's often spoken of how great a job his sister is doing in raising this girl, so I don't think he "has it out for his sister." He was just shocked that the girl was lied to. He and his sister get along fine, they just don't see one another that often because of the geographic distance.
I'm not sure I agree with lying to a child because she might start talking about it at school, like "My mom was in jail." Again, who are you trying to protect by doing that? If all you parents followed this rule, you'd never let your kids witness any bad sh*t in your household, and sh*t happens all the time because, as we all know, the majority of families are pretty freaking dysfunctional.
I'm still on my partner's side about this. I should add that he's an E.R. doctor, and he sees dysfunctional parents and their kids all the time in his work in less-than-ideal, often critical situations, and I'm sure that his clinical experiences have impacted his feelings in this situation. He loves treating kids (he missed his calling as a pediatrician, as far as I'm concerned) when they come into the E.R., and he and I have discussed adopting a kid as a possibility in the future.
We are planning to see the sister and the niece and the mother in a couple of weeks, so it'll be interesting to see if the woman does any drinking. I've never seen her drink more than a couple of glasses of wine in an evening on the dozen or so occasions we've spent time with them.
Well, ACHE, I agree about the open communication.
I like this part:
"Mom made a mistake. It either will never happen again, or Mom is going to get help. I'm so very sorry I've let you down. Please forgive me."
What does this do? It helps the *parent* rise to the occasion of improving their behavior so they don't let the child down in the same way in the future. It acknowledges how Mom can make it "different" next time (gets help, stops driving, stops drinking, whatever the solution is).
The other thing it does is makes the kid aware that parents are human and make mistakes. And I agree that 9 years old is old enough to get that. I guess you change the language and presentation depending on the age, but this was an "opportunity" for both the mom and the child to strengthen their relationship, because of the honesty and open communication, like you said.
ACHE, I know you'll be disappointed - still no magical thinking here on my end! :D (Keep trying, though. Keep trying.)
I like this part:
"Mom made a mistake. It either will never happen again, or Mom is going to get help. I'm so very sorry I've let you down. Please forgive me."
What does this do? It helps the *parent* rise to the occasion of improving their behavior so they don't let the child down in the same way in the future. It acknowledges how Mom can make it "different" next time (gets help, stops driving, stops drinking, whatever the solution is).
The other thing it does is makes the kid aware that parents are human and make mistakes. And I agree that 9 years old is old enough to get that. I guess you change the language and presentation depending on the age, but this was an "opportunity" for both the mom and the child to strengthen their relationship, because of the honesty and open communication, like you said.
ACHE, I know you'll be disappointed - still no magical thinking here on my end! :D (Keep trying, though. Keep trying.)
I also wanted to point out the comment RockRose made, which I thought was a good point: "When parents do stupid, crazy irresponsible stuff like this, it gives the kids 'permission' to do it too, and the girl would end up saying well YOU did it. She doesn't need that kind of ammunition against her mother."
I think the girl has more ammo against her mother if the mother hides the truth, and the girl finds out later.
Also, if the mother tells the truth now, admits that it was a mistake, seeks help if needed, and above all, seeks forgiveness from her daughter, then that is not ammunition.
If the daughter throws this back at her mother in a few yrs, she will only have the right to do so if her mother's behavior continues from this point. If not--if this is where it ends and will never happen again--then the daughter's attempt to ever use it for ammo will not work very well.
By the mother admitting to a stupid, careless mistake, and showing true shame for it, then the daughter will get the message that she does not have "permission" to make the same or a similar mistake in her future.
I think the girl has more ammo against her mother if the mother hides the truth, and the girl finds out later.
Also, if the mother tells the truth now, admits that it was a mistake, seeks help if needed, and above all, seeks forgiveness from her daughter, then that is not ammunition.
If the daughter throws this back at her mother in a few yrs, she will only have the right to do so if her mother's behavior continues from this point. If not--if this is where it ends and will never happen again--then the daughter's attempt to ever use it for ammo will not work very well.
By the mother admitting to a stupid, careless mistake, and showing true shame for it, then the daughter will get the message that she does not have "permission" to make the same or a similar mistake in her future.
Hey barn babe, never would've expected to see you in this forum! :-)
In my personal point of view, I must say that I agree with your partner; it's never okay to lie to a child. Especially with something as serious as the mother going to jail.
The girl is nine yrs old, which I believe is old enough to understand a matter-of-fact talk about how adults and parents make mistakes sometimes.
Take for example a situation I lived through about 5.5 yrs ago. At that time I was 17 yrs old, and my then-stepfather was an alcoholic. He and my mom have a daughter together, and at that time, she was 6.5 yrs old. They went through a really nasty divorce that year.
Long story short, my sister was definitely the one who suffered most, I believe, b/c she had the least understanding of everything. However, she craved to know the truth, in ways she would understand, to calm her anxiety. So whenever my mom and I noticed that she was confused, looked hurt, or started to "act out" when it came to her father and his problems (divorce situation aside), we'd tell her how it was: "Your daddy has a problem that makes him sick. He likes to drink too much beer. It would be okay if he only drank a little, but your daddy drinks too much. We want him to get better, b/c we hate to see him get so sick. When he's sick, he says things that are mean, and he does things that can be dangerous."
We had to let her know as well that his drinking could get him in trouble with the law (fortunately, he never did, but it could've happened). We just had to assure her that we would be there for her, and that we cared about her daddy and we wanted her to keep loving him too. She was 6.5 yrs old, and with the right kind of assurance, she understood just fine, and without feeling like SHE was in any way responsible. We told her that our family had problems, and we were trying to make them better.
Also, she didn't go around telling her teachers and kids in her 1st grade class. She knew this was a very personal thing our family was going through. But my mom let her teachers know, for obvious reasons. But the teachers didn't ask my sister anything unless she came to them.
So my point is, if this little girl is 9 yrs old, she will most certainly understand the truth if it is presented to her the right way. She's been lied to about the situation so far, so whether or not it's cleared up depends on her mother and grandmother.
But I think the lie added to the actual situation is going to make it much more heartbreaking to know the truth, whereas I really don't think it would've been so horrible for her if she was told up front, "Mom made a mistake. It either will never happen again, or Mom is going to get help. I'm so very sorry I've let you down. Please forgive me."
Then she has the truthful knowledge that she can trust her mom (and grandmother) to tell her when they've messed up. They would expect no less of her if, say, she got in some huge trouble at school and then lied about it to them. It's not fair if a child is always expected to be truthful, but then the parents/authority figures turn around and lie to their children, no matter what the reason. And this is no white lie they're telling her.
I hope all works out for the best, mostly for this little girl.
In my personal point of view, I must say that I agree with your partner; it's never okay to lie to a child. Especially with something as serious as the mother going to jail.
The girl is nine yrs old, which I believe is old enough to understand a matter-of-fact talk about how adults and parents make mistakes sometimes.
Take for example a situation I lived through about 5.5 yrs ago. At that time I was 17 yrs old, and my then-stepfather was an alcoholic. He and my mom have a daughter together, and at that time, she was 6.5 yrs old. They went through a really nasty divorce that year.
Long story short, my sister was definitely the one who suffered most, I believe, b/c she had the least understanding of everything. However, she craved to know the truth, in ways she would understand, to calm her anxiety. So whenever my mom and I noticed that she was confused, looked hurt, or started to "act out" when it came to her father and his problems (divorce situation aside), we'd tell her how it was: "Your daddy has a problem that makes him sick. He likes to drink too much beer. It would be okay if he only drank a little, but your daddy drinks too much. We want him to get better, b/c we hate to see him get so sick. When he's sick, he says things that are mean, and he does things that can be dangerous."
We had to let her know as well that his drinking could get him in trouble with the law (fortunately, he never did, but it could've happened). We just had to assure her that we would be there for her, and that we cared about her daddy and we wanted her to keep loving him too. She was 6.5 yrs old, and with the right kind of assurance, she understood just fine, and without feeling like SHE was in any way responsible. We told her that our family had problems, and we were trying to make them better.
Also, she didn't go around telling her teachers and kids in her 1st grade class. She knew this was a very personal thing our family was going through. But my mom let her teachers know, for obvious reasons. But the teachers didn't ask my sister anything unless she came to them.
So my point is, if this little girl is 9 yrs old, she will most certainly understand the truth if it is presented to her the right way. She's been lied to about the situation so far, so whether or not it's cleared up depends on her mother and grandmother.
But I think the lie added to the actual situation is going to make it much more heartbreaking to know the truth, whereas I really don't think it would've been so horrible for her if she was told up front, "Mom made a mistake. It either will never happen again, or Mom is going to get help. I'm so very sorry I've let you down. Please forgive me."
Then she has the truthful knowledge that she can trust her mom (and grandmother) to tell her when they've messed up. They would expect no less of her if, say, she got in some huge trouble at school and then lied about it to them. It's not fair if a child is always expected to be truthful, but then the parents/authority figures turn around and lie to their children, no matter what the reason. And this is no white lie they're telling her.
I hope all works out for the best, mostly for this little girl.
I sense your partner wants everyone to know what a bad girl his sister is - I really can't imagine a rational person would think it was BETTER for a little girl to know her mommy has a DUI, than to withhold that for her. When parents do stupid, crazy irresponsible stuff like this, it gives the kids "permission" to do it too, and the girl would end up saying well YOU did it. She doesn't need that kind of ammunition against her mother,
On the other hand, Good Lord. Is this typical of this woman to be drunk in the morning/afternoon, or was this a rare occurrance of her going to lunch with friends and having a couple glasses of wine, out of character for her in the middle of the day, and then getting caught?
I think he should strongly recommend that she get help, and keep after her until she does. This is really a red flag.
Best wishes.
On the other hand, Good Lord. Is this typical of this woman to be drunk in the morning/afternoon, or was this a rare occurrance of her going to lunch with friends and having a couple glasses of wine, out of character for her in the middle of the day, and then getting caught?
I think he should strongly recommend that she get help, and keep after her until she does. This is really a red flag.
Best wishes.
i can't help but feel that by telling the truth, this poor little girl will be suffering for the mistakes made by her mother. she is too young to understand, and it would only confuse her. if her mother is an alcoholic, and regularly has problems, then one can begin a discussion on alcoholism as an illness to help her understand. (and if she's being arrested for dui in the middle of the day then chances are she does have a genuine problem). if this is the case, and mom is an alcoholic, then the whole family, including the child needs counceling, and they can help you determine how much is appropriate to reveal to the child.
if this really was a one-time, stupid mistake, i don't think it's worth confusing the child and jeopardizing her relationship with her mother.
i applaud both you and your partner for waiting for things to cool down before you say something. i know you said you don't have the greatest relationship with the mother, but please, for the sake of the child, look into whether or not she has an on-going problem. i am the child of an alcoholic, and no one really intervened. my father was loving and caring, and never once harmed us, but looking back i can see that he often drove us while intoxicated. thank God nothing ever happened (He really must have been watching over us!). as the years passed, he progressively got worse, and ended up dying at 48 yrs old when his organs failed him.
if this really was a one-time, stupid mistake, i don't think it's worth confusing the child and jeopardizing her relationship with her mother.
i applaud both you and your partner for waiting for things to cool down before you say something. i know you said you don't have the greatest relationship with the mother, but please, for the sake of the child, look into whether or not she has an on-going problem. i am the child of an alcoholic, and no one really intervened. my father was loving and caring, and never once harmed us, but looking back i can see that he often drove us while intoxicated. thank God nothing ever happened (He really must have been watching over us!). as the years passed, he progressively got worse, and ended up dying at 48 yrs old when his organs failed him.
Interesting case...Usually I do not believe in all those white lies either and prefer lessons in integrity - however, a 9-year-old will likely still spurt out "my mom went to jail" in front of teachers and friends and rather do damage to her own image. Even if she grasps the concept of having to live the consequences of DUI or other bad choices, the others may not grasp it and stigmatize her as the one whose mom is a "jail bird". If she were 6 or 7 years older, I would have told her the truth. At this age - no.
If this whole incident remains a one-time occurrence, the mother should avoid ever telling the real story because THEN it would teach the daughter that lying is okay. The choice to make up a hospital story is a bit over the edge because there is no reason to pick a scenario that will be worrisome for the daughter. Having said this, my opinion would change drastically if the same incident would happen again. If there is a whole pattern of intoxicated driving, the main thing is to get the driver off the road. If that were ever the case, I would explain jail to the daughter as some form of school the mother has to go to in order to distinguish right from wrong.
If this whole incident remains a one-time occurrence, the mother should avoid ever telling the real story because THEN it would teach the daughter that lying is okay. The choice to make up a hospital story is a bit over the edge because there is no reason to pick a scenario that will be worrisome for the daughter. Having said this, my opinion would change drastically if the same incident would happen again. If there is a whole pattern of intoxicated driving, the main thing is to get the driver off the road. If that were ever the case, I would explain jail to the daughter as some form of school the mother has to go to in order to distinguish right from wrong.
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