child who lies about anything

[tee56]

I have a seven year old son who has been lying about anything and everything since he was about three. I think he may have asburgers but can not seem to find anyone in my community to help (small town). Is this normal because I feel at my wits end. The lies are about big and small things with no limit, he even went to school last year and told a teacher that his dad made him put his finger in the mouth of a fish so it could bit him when my husband had taken all of our kids fishing. He has had things taken away, been sent to his room and not been able to participate in family activities for lying with no change in the behavior. When I have tried to talk with him about lying he just says he does not know why he told the lie and I have heard this about 1000 times. He went to a Christian camp for 6 days with his sister and kept asking the counselors about the devil every time the had bible study. Last night his sister was singing a song about butter milk and he started saying he likes butter milk and me and my husband both tried to tell him that he did not like butter milk because he had tried it at his grandmothers house and he just kept arguing until my husband finally went to the store and bought him some and he sat at the table choking and gagging down this butter milk insisting that he liked it. My son is now 7 and will be 8 soon and I just do not know what to do and any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Sandman2]

    Small world isn't it :)
Get the book, "The ADD/ ADHD Answer book," by Susan Ashley.   She has a great section on how to get (or force) schools involved.  Also a whole section on 504 plans which is probably what will happen.  And her sections on discipline and self confidence, etc. are very good.  Even if he does not have ADD (sounds like he might), her recommendations will help you a lot.
   Another important thing is trying to figure out what is going on with him ( I know you have been trying).  Its just that you discipline kids with AD/HD differently then other kids.  And kids with AD/HD or SIDS just do things differently.  Once you begin to understand what is going on, then you can deal with their problems so much better.  
   And, as I said, in my last post - being the youngest boy in the family is not easy and probably adds more to his problems.  So do keep that in mind.
   One other thought, you said he, "can read but does not really understand what he has read therefore he really does not like to read."    7 year old boys are not great readers anyway.  And if you are not too interested in what you are reading, you certainly are not going to understand it as well.  (and he may even understand it - boys of that age are also not great communicators.)  Work on finding books he will like to read and read them to him.  I read to my son for a long, long time.  He is still not a big reader, but had no problem getting through high school and college.  There are wonderful exciting books out there (usually not the ones they read in school).   Its a wonderful time to spend with your son.  Look for Shel Silverstein books for example.  
    Oh, and finally, one of specialmoms favorite sayings (don't think she has said it yet), is to "pick your fights".   There are things you can ignore and things you can't.  There are things you can teach and change (with lots of work), and things you just make sure don't happen.  This is just essentially a way of saying to talk with your husband and plan a form of action.  I think the kid does need some space and lots of help.    Best wishes!

[tee56]

thank you so much for the advice and I will be looking up the laws in this state and get that IEP done. I looked to the school because we could not find anyone.

[specialmom]

Schools can be difficult.  They don't want to evaluate or do IEP's unless it is affecting a child academically.  You have to be a squeaky wheel.  They can not deny you an evaluation I believe by law in Ohio though.  Go to the library and find a book on iep's.  I'll google to see what I find but a parent can request an evaluation.  Also, check with your insurance.  We went the route of a private occupational therapist via insurance rather than our school system.  

also, I am more than happy to give you suggestions that are sensory related and some things that have worked for us that you can do at home.  Add/adhd is similar to sensory----  really, both are helped by sensory strategies.  

BTW, not everything has to 'fit' for the problem to be there.  My son is athletically inclined and plays sports but has coordination issues as well.  He is a mixed bag but indeed has sensory integration disorder.  So, when looking at symptoms of something----  it doesn't have to be an exact match.  you look for the things that ring bells of familiarity verses saying
that is exactly my kid because every kid is different.  

good luck

[tee56]

sandman2 I just saw you are from my neck of the woods. I am from redondo and lived in my first place in san pedro. Nice to here from a fellow south bay.

[tee56]

sorry It was Los Angeles that I moved from to small town Ohio. Now the schools is LA where not very hard to get help with, but I had to have all my own testing done with Dr Fishler from Hollywood children's hosp. My oldest has ADHD and dyslexia. And was then able to force the school to help. Back then we did not have internet and you where really on your own trying to help your child, but I tried the meds back then and did not like what they did to my son so I worked really hard and with the help of a wonderful teacher was shown some other ways to work with an ADHD child. Here in Ohio (at least where we live) finding any good help or pros seems to be almost impossible, the school only seems to care if the child is having a hard time with school work, which my son is not as of yet. He is above grade in math and can read but does not really understand what he has read therefore he really does not like to read. The school says this is no big deal because it has not affected his grades? I will look more into the sensory issue, but me and my husband watched a documentary about that and other issues and found that some of it does fit but not all of it. I would like to here how other parents have worked with there child on these issues so I can help my son and get some form of piece back into my house. See these issues do not just affect me they affect all of my children. I do have to say something though, my youngest sister had ADHD and back in the 70s people had given my mom such a bad time telling her she was a bad parent, did not no how to discipline her child she was told by the school that her child was lazy and would not do school work and it was all her fault because she was just a bad parent and did not care. Now this is how the first few posts on this site started to sound like when all I was doing was yet another attempt to find more info and to reach out to parents who may have the same issues with there child and see how they help them. You see we have tried so hard to find help with nothing but dead ends and I thought well I will see if other parents have had these issues and ask advice (just like the teacher that helped me way back when). Thank you for any and all advice.

[tee56]

the teacher in k was worried but would not refer him. that school has not been much help at all. I guess this is life in a small town

[tee56]

thank you so much

[Nighthawk61]

Just want you to know that i know the difference between a good post and a bad one. I just got this overwhelming stress for this kid all of a sudden, i can now image what the mother must be feeling. so i am genuinely sorry. It's all good Sandman I understand that it was imperative that you get your point across and i hope that i didn't cause too much stress. This is a stressfull calling isn't it. I forgive myself my blunder. I hope other;'s do as well.

[Nighthawk61]

Thanks for that, it's good to hear of the standard of excellence here, and also the advice from those who are making the most sense.

[Sandman2]

    Oh, I do hope you keep posting on this site.  And I apologize to you, I was kind of brutal.  I just had this very long post going in response and my only thought was - good lord she never will post again.  
   And I really do appreciate your response.  Way to many people just never bother to respond again and good ideas are lost.  And yes, it does take a while and a bit of effort to really do so effectively.  But, you know what they say about practice :)
   Looking forward to hearing more from you!

[Sandman2]

     Thank you for the added information.  It must be tough and extremely frustrating to try and get help for almost 5 years and keep hitting a dead end.
     I do hope you realize we do see many posts about kids lying on this site and many of the lies are pretty extreme - like smearing poop on bedroom walls and swearing they didn't do it.  So your initial posts (not your fault, I now understand where you were coming from) resulted in our answers.
    Specialmom has some excellent advice.  When you said you have been looking at these websites for years - well, things change.  I have been posting on the ADHD website (now the CL) for over 5 years and had never heard of SID until specialmom started posting maybe a year or so ago.  I became very interested in it because the symptoms are very close to ADHD, but with some important differences.  And, of course, SID is not treated with medication.  So definitely take a look at the site she recommended (it is new stuff and a lot of doctors still are missing it) - here is the link to that site - http://www.sensory-processing-disorder.com/
The site I recommended to you is the site she is the CL on here.  If after looking at those symptoms, you have more questions - I would suggest you post there.
     ADHD wise, I can tell you kids with ADHD lie a lot - for exactly the same reasons that specialmom mentioned in her post.   And ADHD is inherited.   So knowing that your eldest has it (well, might have it as docs didn't know about things like SIDS back then), would make me suspect the possibility that he might have ADHD too.  Of the numerous web sites that have info on ADHD - I suggest you take a quick look at this site - http://www.help4adhd.org/en/about/what/WWK1
   and if the symptoms seem to fit him, then post to me over on the ADHD web site.  Or, if you have any questions about anything else.   I also do want to add, that over the last 20 years the ways to work with ADHD kids has changed.  
   Other thoughts.  Now, I don't think this would explain his earliest behavior, but I can tell you that from years of reading posts on this site.  That if you are the youngest kid in a family.  And if your sister probably doesn't get into trouble very much - you are going to develop compensating ways to get attention.   And that is just added on top of what is already going on with him.  Its a vicious circle.
    Specialmom had a very good question - how do the schools look at this?
Do the teachers have problems with him?  How are his grades?  If you check out my profile - I have a lot of experience with schools and maybe can also help here.   Finally, you said you move from LA.  Is that Los Angles or Louisiana or somewhere else?  I have more experience with California schools which is why I ask.
    I would like to give you more suggestions to help - but frankly, I don't know enough to do so.  I do know many things that parents can do to help ADHD kids (without meds) and improve the family dynamics.  And, there is also things to help with temper, etc.  But that is another post.    
   Hope some of this helps - best wishes.

[Nighthawk61]

Please accept my apology, I am new to the site and there is a learning curve. I am so sorry that i made you feel defensive. That is not what this site is about. and not what you need right now. I wish you the very best with your situation and will leave you now to the professionals. My hope and wish is that you gain insight.  I have learned by this to be more nurturing. I'm sorry again, if i hurt your feelings.

[Nighthawk61]

Thank you Sandman for the "good pieces of advice" and the constructive criticism. we are a respectful family here and so it matters what you say, it makes sense that the wisdom of the elders matters`  I am so sorry tee56, for making you feel defensive. That is not what this site should be aboutt and not what you need right now. I wish you the very best with your situation and hope that you have gained some insight. Insight is what this place is all about.  

[Sandman2]

  I think that any one who takes the time to post does show concern for their son.  And, if they take the time to post repeatedly (most don't), it really does show concern and an attempt to get answers.  And yes, hearing about the good stuff is always nice, but it's not going to help us as much as listing his problems.  I have had posts go on for days before the poster and I were able to finally get enough facts down to start offering ideas to help.  Its just not that easy to put down 5 years of life into a single post.

[samari10]

some things dont make a lot of sense , you know you're son's in the doghouse, but,, he's still in the dog house? why? you obviously have to go at this from another angle, so the more people reach out and the more reading that you do, the more likely that you will find the help. insulting the help, is a waste of everybody's time.

[Sandman2]

Hi, welcome to the forum.  You gave some pieces of good advice, but ended up almost attacking the poster.  That is not the way to get people to listen to your advice - especially when they have already apologized.  Do make sure you read all the posts before passing judgement.

[samari10]

there should be some kind of disclaimer on this website, that first you should be as open as you can be, nobody can help you if your not open to it. ie.
Sandman2 is a hero in my books for opening up those sites for you. How would he know that you've tried these things? These are not stupid idle comments. This is life saving good advice, obviously, if you've already been there and done that. I understand when you get on this site, anger and resentment may be close at hand, but if you stay, and open yourself up to the love and well wishes you will have gained a family.  I've heard this said, and i'm  going to say it again, just in case you haven't heard it. These selfless individuals are there for you when you have exhausted every other avenue. They have found help for their own problems and they are giving help when needed. These long timers are angels. They're not your enemy. Please, lay your anger aside and deal with the problems that you have without the anger issues.  

[specialmom]

When you describe your child's volatility, that is concerning.  Has he been screened for aspergers?  My son with sensory can also have very bad meltdowns.  They are much less frequent now thank goodness but were scary at their worst.  Part of sensory is the emotional regulation system.  Kids with a delay in this area often have trouble with emotional outbursts.  

Does your school help you at all??  Are they concerned as well?

[specialmom]

Hi there.  I understand the difficult task of trying to understand our children.  They are there mysterious creatures placed in our care and some can be quite complicated puzzles to figure out.  I have been there in which understanding my son's behavior has caused me great stress.  

It turned out that my son has sensory integration disorder.  This can look a lot like adhd and if you have suspected adhd with your child, you might look this up just to see if anything fits.  A child with sensory can be out of the box in their way of thinking and doing things.  At times they can seem downright unreasonable.  

A great web site to look at to see symptoms for sensory is "sensoryprocessing disorder" or "SPD".  (spd is another name for sensory).  

My son with sensory has lied and what I've determined is that for him, it is a protective mechanism.  He has low self esteem and the idea of doing something wrong and being in trouble is unbearable to him.  He will tell a fib.  OR he will say "so and so taught me that" to deflect blame.  OR he might make something up to sound grand.  All self esteem related.  And his self esteem is related to his sensory integration disorder.

We work on it.  What can I say, kids are often a work in progress.  Lots of luck to you with your son!

[samari10]

honestly you sound more harassed and embarrassed than genuine concern for a loved one. Yeah, what about those redeeming qualities, we still haven't heard any MOM

[Nighthawk61]

I'm glad to hear that your eldest son's adhd was managed without meds, because it's proven that many are diagnosed with adhd that do not have it. I know one thing, and that is that you're at the end of your rope and as such are probably negatively affecting the situation, perhaps you could have your special guy get out and have a meeting with a big brother, someone is the field of psychology would probably love to help you and your son, having your son attend group activities would help him to relate to others and would give you a bit of a break, I can hear that your son is breaking ;your heart, and mine is breaking for him!!! You've given this child no redeeming factors, i find that really suspect and really strange. And please don't waste your time reaming people out on here, that says a lot more about you then for instance, allmymarbles who has had 41 best answers on this site, you opened yourself up to information, it is best served cold. read and re read the answers looking for clues before you cut somebody down so quickly, how was allmymarbles supposed know what else you've triedl before you mention it. If this is an example of your mothering skills, i would have to say you've found one answer already that makes sense, you're angry beyond intellect

[allmymarbles]

Thank you for providing more complete information. It would appear that lying is only a symptom of a larger problem.

[tee56]

And one more piece of info. My oldest is ADHD and this is not even close. I tried the meds way back when and found that there where other ways. And my oldest is a great guy with the skills to manage his ADHD with out meds.

[tee56]

yes I did see your post and these are the same websites I have been looking at for years now, this is why we truly believe he has aspergers, but I believe there is also something else going on and cant not seen to understand what it is. What I was wondering is if these are things other people have seen in there children. His lies have become very malice at times. I also did not mention that he throws big temper tantrums and will scream for hours, kick walls and hurts him self at times. He has attacked people in our home and broken lots of things (not just by accident). I am sorry if I offended anyone but look at some of the responses I have gotten. I have tried to find a health care provider and have been to children's hospital several times and been told he looks really good and if any more problems come up to bring him back, the doctor we see at children's even saw that my son could not understand him and had me translate what he was asking and still said nothing seemed to be wrong.. We even saw a language specialist and she said everything was fine because he new what dog, cat ect. and we told her he has a problem with understanding conversation not words . I saw another place and they sent him to a counselor and this person turned out to specialize in marriage therapy (really for a them 5 year old). So we have been on are own with this still searching for answers. I know if I had never left LA this would not be an issue but we thought leaving the city for a better way to raise are children would be good for them and it is except when you have a child that has mental issues of some kind. Oh and yes his twin is a girl and my oldest is a boy my 16 year old is also a girl. Now I know the butter milk thing is no big deal, but my point was he will lie about anything and everything and I do not understand why and as I said before this has been going on since he could really talk. The fits have been going on forever. The understanding conversation as also been going on forever also. We have been seeking out a specialist since he was 2. I love my son very much and just want what is best for him so that he can have a happy productive life but at this rate I really worry that he may not have that.