ocd?

[erinty]

I have been taking my son to counsling for a few weeks now for agression, easy frustration, defiance, social anxiety, and pooing i his pants- he is five.  Yesterday i went to see the counselor by myself so that we could talk not in front of my son.  He asked me what i thought of ocd. When i think of ocd i think of excessive hand washing and things like that.  My son does not do those types of things.  But it seems as though it is possible that he might be obsessed with his own personal perfection.  It seems like he thinks he should have been born knowing everything and so if he doesnt know something or how to make something work he gets very eaasily angered at the situation and his response to this is very over the top.  The doc pointed out that when he starts playing with the legos in his office it seems that the anger and agression start to come out.  My son doesnt have legos at home and hasnt really quite figured out how to make things with them.  I thought that was very insighful on th part of the doc because looking back when my son is unable to do something or he is not the one in controlof how something is being done he gets very mad.  He is also very bossy at school almost like he thinks its his job to be the teachers assistant in running the classroom.  I do see that he is afraid of making mistakes.  I didnt even know he knew any part of his ABC's until he could sing the whole entire song. Itry to teach him things at home but he wants no part of it he gets too frustrated if he does something wrong and he scribbles all over the page and throws the book.  When he was first learning to speak in sentences he would repeat the entire sentence under his breath like he was trying to see if he said it correctly.  He is very socially phobic and wouldn't even go up and get his pre-k diploma or sing the songs with the other kids. I believe his behavioral issues are caused by deeper rooted anxiety issuse and if i could find out what they were and how to help him be happy and confidant the behavioral concerns would begin to subside.  So my questions are does this sound at all like ocd? Could he be trying so hard to be smart and all-knowing that when he is unable to achieve his own standards he has set for himself he becomes agressive and his self esteem is shot?

[Cleveland Mom]

Has your son seen the neuropsychologist yet?  If so, is obsessive compulsive disorder his finding?  Please, give us an update on your son's behavior i.e. aggression and anger issues.

[erinty]

i cannot get a neuropsych eval until december i am still dealing with his anger and aggression issues i am trying redirection direct eye contact and immidiate consistant time outs i have seen a little improvement but he is very easily frustrated which often leads to aggression.  the ocd was a thought the counselor brought up yersterday.  I was reading about obseesive compulsive personality disorder which is different and that seems more like him

[jdtm]

Your posting reminds me of my friend's son.  He was first diagnosed with ODD (oppositional defiant disorder) and then one year later as suffering from SA (social anxiety).  I do not think it matters so much whether your son has OCD or SA; but that the main issue is one of "anxiety".  I like to define anxiety as "intense stress which can reach toxic levels" and these toxic levels distort thinking and behaviours in a negative manner.  The behaviours you have described can be attributed to most, if not all, of the anxiety disorders.  I might suggest you do an internet search on "childhood anxiety disorders" to help "narrow down" the correct diagnosis.  By the way, childhood anxiety disorders respond very well to early intervention and treatment.

[erinty]

I completely agree that there is a big issue of anxiety in my son.  I would like to find the root of the problem so i could help him alleviate some of the stress.  I am so worried about kindergarten because it will be full day and i think things like going to the cafeteria will freak him out.  I want the school on the same page as me so they can help him through these transitions.  I don't want him reprimanded in school when the situation could have most likely been avoided if his anxiety wasnt so high.

[jdtm]

I believe that anxiety is inherited - perhaps a chemical imbalance in the brain.  I doubt very much if there is "a root of the problem" - an inherited tendency towards anxiety that can be exacerbated by events but usually there is no specific cause.  It just is.

To help him in school, a school team approach may be required (and the parents will have to take the lead) - involving the teacher, special resource personnel (if any) and possibly your counselor/therapist/medical person.  Three books that  might help are (you should be able to find them on amazon.com or your local library or local bookstore)   (1) "Keys to Parenting Your Anxious Child" by Katharina Manassis (2) "the highly sensitive child" by Elaine N. Aron and (3) "The Explosive Child" by Ross W. Greene.  The latter two books have websites that you should be able to access by keying in the title of the books.  Perhaps the school or your medical person might be able to suggest additional material.   Hope this helps

[Cleveland Mom]

Your son may well be experiencing anxiety. Obsessive-compulsive disorder is on the spectrum of anxiety disorders.  Some of the behaviors you have reported in this post could be consistent with OCD. The therapist taking care of your son is in a much better position to evaluate if he is experiencing anxiety.   However, anxiety may not entierly account for the behavior problems that you have described previously, i.e. the level aggression and anger.  Its quite possible that he is experiening more than one condition.  I agree that it may be helpful for you to do your own investigation of OCD in children.  What recommendations has the therapist made to your regarding a behavior plan to help you with your son's behavior at home?  Best wishes...

[erinty]

Well i guess we haven't gotten that far.  He is still "observing" my son and talking with me about his current and past behavior as well as family history.  We decided not to meet this week so he could do research into what "condition" would fit him best according to his "symptoms".  Hopefully once he comes to his conclusion we can work on a behavior plan.  

[mom2rachie]

Making lists, rearranging, things like that are all signs of OCD.  Some are too mild for medications.  I was not medicated until I was in my late 20's and it was for depression coupled with OCD.  
God, whenI thik about it, I stillhavelist after list all over the house... thhings to do, things to buy, things to clean.  It's to the point sometimes that I spend more time making lists than I do actually doing anything on them.

[mom2rachie]

It's strange.  I just posted this almost word for word.
I was exactly like that when I was little.  I was a sevre perfectionist.  I would sit inmy roiom and arrange things and re-arrange things like on bookshelves and write lists and try to control everything around me; school work, games, pretend plays we would put on.  I would totally take charge and at times I was extremely overbearing.  Now, looking back it started at a very very young age, like 4 or 5.
Over time and with therapy I realized (with help) it was because there were external things going on around me.  My parents were fighting a lot for one.  Also, I was labeled a very intelligent child and a very creatvie sensitive child.
I don't know what's going on at home, but could it be that there are external things affecting him and that his way of dealing is to control everything else around him?  I know that I felt, and still do, that if I cold just control this or just do this perfectly, then everything else would beok.  I was classified with OCD at a young age.  
I'm not saying he fits that profile but it's just another spin on what's going on.  Of course, he could just be a sensitve little boy who wants to do well all the time.  
OCD does not classify itself with just compulsions like hand washing or checking stoves although they usually go hand in hand.  To this day I cannot go to sleep unles the house is organized and the pillows on the sofa are just right.
Here are some facts about OCD for your information:

Obsessions as defined by:

Recurrent and persistent thoughts, impulses, or images that are experienced, at some time during the disturbance, as intrusive and inappropriate and that cause marked anxiety or distress

The thoughts, impulses, or images are not simply excessive worries about real-life problems

The person attempts to ignore or suppress such thoughts, impulses, or images, or to neutralize them with some other thought or action

The person recognizes that the obsessional thoughts, impulses, or images are a product of his or her own mind (not imposed from without as in thought insertion)

Compulsions as defined by:

Repetitive behaviors (e.g., hand washing, ordering, checking) or mental acts (e.g., praying, counting, repeating words silently) that the person feels driven to perform in response to an obsession, or according to rules that must be applied rigidly

The behaviors or mental acts are aimed at preventing or reducing distress or preventing some dreaded event or situation; however, these behaviors or mental acts either are not connected in a realistic way with what they are designed to neutralize or prevent or are clearly excessive

--- AND: ---

At some point during the course of the disorder, the adult has recognized that the obsessions or compulsions are excessive or unreasonable (not applicable to children).

The obsessions or compulsions cause marked distress, are time consuming (take more than 1 hour a day), or significantly interfere with the person's normal routine, occupational (or academic) functioning, or usual social activities or relationships.

If another disorder is present, the content of the obsessions or compulsions is not restricted to it. The disturbance is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition

[erinty]

I was just reading that other thread and actually asked you to read mnie.  So thank you. I have read a lot about ocd and childhood ocd. but my son doesn't seem to have any obsessions or compulsions, except the fact that he is obsessed with being perfect  Is that still an obsession?  Oh well and i am not so sure about this my son will not let anyone drink out of his cup or eat of his plate.  He says he will get germs and he even says he can smell someones breath on his cup or fork if he thinks you may have eaten of his stuff.  Sometimes he even returns dishes or silverware to the sink if he thinks they were not washed properly.  But he is not a compulsive hand washer or anything else.  At first i thought it ws good for him not to like to share his cup etc... with other kids but he won't even share with me and now i guess i could see how this could turn into an obsession

[Cleveland Mom]

Erinty, being obsessed about being "perfect" is common with those of have OCD.  His pre-occupation with germs as you describe is sounds obsessive as well.   These issues are likely what is leading the therapist taking care of your son to investigate/consider OCD as a possibilty concerning your son.

[mom2rachie]

People don't know generally that hand washing and repeated behavior are not the only signs... there are tons other even smaller signs.  I think having him evaluated is a good idea.  
BTW, I'm normal... well, most of the time.  Don't be too alarmed.  If it is OCD it might be mild and it can be easily treated either with meds and therapy or with just therapy alone.
Good luck to you!!  

[Trialanderror]

Oh boy - I just posted a long comment and it did not go through...No way I can re-write, so I just wish you all the best...

[mom2rachie]

I hate when that happens!!