lymes disease

[jkv44]

hi,
does anyone know any natural ways to treat lymes disease? JKV

[wonko]

Stephen Harrod Buhner's book "Healing Lyme" is a popular herbal approach to treating Lyme disease.  I look to this and other options in the future if/when my body can no longer handle antibiotics.

I also have used "cat's claw." also called "Samento," in liquid form.  I don't think it could cure me, but it did help while I waiting to start antibiotics.

[margypops]

Yes I tried Cats Claw but it made me feel sick,I think anti biotics may be the only way, I am waiting for the test...I beleive a member here also recommended Olive Leaf to build the Immune system.

[wonko]

Do you think the "sick" feeling could have been a Herxheimer reaction?

You simply cannot beat Lyme without first getting more sick.  That is what I have experienced, read, and believe to be true.  When the bugs die, their remains poison the body.  That is why it is inevitable, you must kill the bacteria, but doing so will make you (more) sick.  The key is to find a regimen that you can tolerate, but it won't be fun.

I personally think that antibiotics are necessary in most cases, but I also believe in herbal/alternative treatment for support and maintenance, especially during breaks from antibiotics.  (I've had to take a few breaks from antibiotics to let my body restore some normalcy, particularly in my gut.)

[laura1967]

Cats Claw (peruvian Uno de Gato) is a crucial element to healing Lyme. But you have to stay on it at least 9 mos to a year. It is very important to get a good brand and to build your way up with dosage. Yes you may feel very sick at times and that is called a herximer reaction (cleansing reaction) which happens when you start killing off the lyme spirochete. Also high dosage of Vit C is needed and all the immune support your body can handle.
Antibiotics rarely cure Lymes UNLESS you catch it in its early stages, or you find a lyme literate dr who knows how to cycle the certain antibiotics properly.  
It will also be important to find out if you have any co-infections that need to be treated as well.
Dr James Schaller has written several books on treating Lymes and co-infections and is by far the best Lyme literate doctor I have read on.  I would go to www.lymebookstore.com and look at the different books and treatments that are written about.
PS- Activated charcoal is a blessing when it comes to die-off (herximer reaction) that is unbearable.

[peggy64]

How do you use the activated charcoal?

Welcome back~

[wonko]

What other immune support supplements do you suggest?  I do take C and L-lysine.

Other supplements I take include alpha-lipoic acid, B12, B complex, D, Magnesium, probiotics, and probably a few others I can't think of right now...

[ott70]

I take Jernigan's natural supplements. I think they have helped more than anything that I have taken. Each person is different though, so I'm not proposing this as a "cure all" for Lyme patients.

Google the Hansa Center out in Wichita, KS.

[Paxiled]

Olive leaf is an antiviral, not an immune system builder.  A good astragalus combination, such as the one made by Gaia, is a good immune system builder.  Wheat and barley grass might help with energy and detoxification.  And probiotics, a good one such as Healthy Trinity, are important whenever antibiotics are taken.  For the rest, I defer to Laura, since I've never had it, don't want it, and never had any customers who actually had it though so many thought they did.  I would caution on the activated charcoal, though, take only as needed, not regularly, as it leaches minerals from the system.  

[wonko]

I've read that olive leaf is good for Lyme patients on antibiotics because it can help manage yeast.  I'm not sure though, and don't take it myself.  I'm currently on diflucan.

Paxiled, do you mean they (customers) thought that they had Lyme, but did not?  How did their situation unfold?

[sick and tired 47]

Interesting post.... I have read soo many people have Lyme and it is misdiagnosed as MS, chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, ect...
I am currently waiting on lyme  lab report  from Quest instead of of the routine negative only report they send.

Any advice or help from people who have gone thru this process of being diagnosed, treated and  especially herbal products they help is appreciated.
My future sister in law has lyme disease and is in the beginning treatment with antibitotics.
Is there NO herbal/ natural treatment alone that works??? I have not read about any - all advise  antibiotics and supplements with herbals.

[laura1967]

Activated charcoal does need to be taken carefully......ALWAYS hours away from any medication and supplement. It acts as a sponge and will soak up anything and everything. It should not be taken continually.
Something else I take that is great for helping me to feel better is chlorella. Never fails me and it is chock full of minerals and goodies.  :)
A good B complex taken 2-3 times per day is very important as critters like to soak these B's up and again it is imperative for the adrenals to be strong.
Extra sublingual B12 is critical for your nervous system which is usually affected by Lymes.
Peggy- thanks for the welcome back! :)

[Paxiled]

Olive leaf is best known for being a good antiviral, a mild antibiotic, probably a mild antifungal.  Better for yeast, though, is oregano oil, pau d'arco.  Other antibiotics are goldenseal, colloidal silver.  Lyme disease has to be understood as three separate things:  first, the tick bite, and it has to be a deer tick, but most people still won't get Lyme disease.  Second, getting Lyme disease, but most people who get it will just get a little ill for a while and that's it.  The third and really bad part is very rare statistically, which are the people who get it and then get complications from it.  I don't know if anything natural cures it.  I head a lot about cat's claw, but again defer to Laura, who seems much more up on this than I am.  As I said, a lot of my customers over the years thought they had it, but it turned out they didn't.  There are many diseases that are very hard to diagnose because they are more a collection of symptoms without a known cause, such as chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia.  But many people diagnose themselves because they have a constellation of symptoms that seem to match something, but they turn out not to have it.  I had customers who over the years went from having candida to having CFS to fribromyalgia to Lyme to whatever.  They were definitely sick, but doctors don't necessarily diagnose these well or take patient's complaints seriously.  Used to see that a lot with endometriosis.  The best thing is to see a doctor for diagnosis, but even if it's technically uncurable, there are still things that can be done naturally to strengthen the body and its organs so it functions better.  You don't have to be "cured" to feel better.  That's what I meant when I said none of my customers who thought they had Lyme turned out to actually have it, but that doesn't mean people don't get it, just that I have no experience with it, just with people who thought they had it but turned out not to.  And chlorella is great, though I prefer spirulina -- easier to absorb, though algaes in general can be difficult to digest.  Lots of great research on chlorella in Japan, where they dare to take this stuff seriously!  The nerve of them!

[margypops]

I got the order for the test the other day the lab said that the docotor had only put down TSH for the thyroid test not T3 Not T4 also only teeter for Lyme.... will the teeter test be enough ? I did tell him but he as usual didnt want to listen, I did take the cats claw one of our great members on The Lyme forum, may have been wonko said that it made me sick because it was 'herxing' so what do you think guys shall I try it again,?I trid the silver pax said but that was even   worse....

[wonko]

That's pretty lazy of your doc to not order the full thryoid panel.  Bummer.  As you may know, the range most labs use for normal TSH is skewed, because HYPO patients were included in setting the average.  So while lots of labs say TSH up to 4 or 5 is ok, other doctors believe nothing over 3 is good.  Others probably know tons more about it than I do, so that's just a head's up.

My T3 & T4 were always within range, but as I got more sick, my TSH rose from 2.67 to 3.35 (with several increasing measurements inbetween).  My last round of bloodwork, taken at 5 months into treatment, it was back down to 2.9.  It is my LLMD's hope that my thyroid will get back on good behavior as my Lyme is treated.

I think several ppl on the Lyme forum have testified to the helpfulness of Cat's Claw.  Personally, (just MY opinion!) I think it is safer than colloidal silver.  So if you think you were Herxing with Cat's claw, I'd stick with that for now.  Herx symptoms usually lessen as you continue on a treatment, so the worst usually hits you up front.

As for the Lyme test, I'm guessing the "teeter" is an ELISA titer?  Not too sure, I'm not  an expert on the tests (why should I be when they failed me, eh?)  But doesn't sound like he ordered the W. blot.  So you will almost surely come back negative.

[margypops]

wonko , yes thats what I thought I went to nhim with notes I had made from all here and defialty even according to the books was the way to go, he was  new Doctor to me, I moved here a year ago, useless, on the oder the had a bunch of other tests, the TSH and Lyme teeter, I took it to the lab then they said I had to go back as all they could do was the TSH as he hadnt been specific...Its the same old thing...I did find a Dr Woeller, who is a LLMD ,oh am I allowed to say his name ? he doesnt take any insurance LOL..$495 for an hour with him......

[Paxiled]

Wonko is correct, cat's claw is definitely safer for long term use than colloidal silver.  I only mentioned it as being a natural antibiotic, but it's not for long-term use, only short-term.  But it is the strongest of the natural antibiotics, so sometimes it's the only thing that works.  But the thing is, once an antibiotic works, you don't need it anymore.  No antibiotic should be taken long-term, not even a natural one, because it will start eventually to kill off beneficial bacteria.  Now, cat's claw is a strange herb, because it's not just an antibiotic -- that isn't even it's traditional usage.  So I can't really comment on that one, you'll need a better authority than me.  If the bacteria you're trying to kill keeps coming back, that means the antibiotic either isn't working or worked too well and damaged the immune system by killing off part of it.  That's why long term use of antibiotics is never a good idea.  The proper use is to kill what you need to kill, then work on getting the immune system back to speed.  Now, with the extended form of Lyme, as far as I know it's incurable at this point, so it does seem to keep coming back.  That suggests antibiotics aren't the answer, but I don't know what is.  Sometimes, you don't have a great answer, so you do what you need to do even if it's harmful in some ways.  

As to thyroid tests, if you see a holistic nutritionist, they'll even test for T1 and T2, not even just T2 and T4, but obviously the tests are expensive.  A good one will also test over a period of a couple weeks to make sure one test isn't a temporary anomaly.  Proper medicine is expensive at the beginning but cheaper over the long term.  Getting doctors to do this is very hard, but persist -- not testing at least T3 and T4 along with TSH is a waste of time.

[margypops]

Yes I went back today to see that Doctor who gave me the order and said TSH was no good as I wanted T3 T4   his words wre that they do TSH first then check that level then do the T3 T4 after, ....I am fed up with it all, I am going to will myself well....LOL

[wonko]

I agree for the most part with your perspective on antibiotics.  Right now, long-term antibiotics are one of the very few options out there for chronic/late diagnosed Lyme disease.  I went 1.5 years with symptoms before getting a diagnosis, and probably had a dormant/inactive infection for longer.  I was also mis-treated with steroids prior to my diagnosis, which further complicates my situation.  

This is my first attempt at treatment, and I'm 7 months on multiple antibiotics to date.  I'm greatly improved, though still symptomatic and heavily impacted.  I hope my case is curable, or at least that I can beat it down to a bearable remission.  Then I plan to use lifestyle and herbal/alternative treatments to keep it at bay.

[wonko]

You tried, so good for you.  If you succeed to will yourself well, then I suspect you have a marketable gift!  I'd be first to sign up for your treatment, ok?

[ott70]

I'll have to disagree a little with the comment about chronic Lyme being very rare. Maybe that is the case statistically because the medical community can't get their act together about how to test for it other than the crummy PCR and Western Blot tests by places like LabCorp.

The CDC has admitted recently that there are probably 200,000 undiagnosed Lyme cases out there each year. This is coming from the same CDC that makes it difficult for anyone to be diagnosed with Lyme due to their requirements.

Some Lyme experts claim that more people have Lyme than HIV and something else combined (sorry, the other disease is escaping my mind).

[ott70]

Most will say antibiotics is definitely needed and some will say antibiotics first and then herbals. Not too many will admit only natural supplements will work.

Holistic medicine has worked the best for me, as I had an allergic response to some antibiotics recently. As mentioned before, I think the Jernigan's supplements work well. A person will definitely herx on them.

The best way to use their supplements is to go to the Hansa Center in Wichita, KS for an individualized regimen. As with a lot of holistic approaches, it's expensive. Figure around $5000 for 2 weeks not including travel and accommodation fees.

Some people on the Lymenet website have been going over to Germany for some specilized natural treatment based on their DNA. Not sure if it's supposed to attack Lyme disease or if it's a matter of building the immune system back up.

[Paxiled]

Chronic Lyme is as yet uncurable.  So if 200,000 get it a year, I mean, think about it, that would mean every American will have it by now.  It's not a new disease, it just has a new press agent.  And fewer people now than ever live or go anywhere near deer, and you do eventually notice a blood engorged tick hanging on you no matter how small they are to start with.  Why doesn't every farmer have it?  Let's just say I'm skeptical about this.  Not that I know, just skeptical.  

[wonko]

The 200,000 number come from the CDC's admission that Lyme under-reporting may be so bad that the reported number of cases of Lyme (NOT chronic Lyme) which is in the high 20 K's (I actually heard it is now low 30's), is a 10-fold underestimate.  

Also, the number of cases are steadily rising each year.  In my county, the number of reported cases quadruped between 2006-2007, for example.  So no, not every farmer has it.  I don't think anyone knows what percentage out of the annually reported value of ~30 K goes chronic.  It's tough to get reliable stats on a disease that doesn't exist, eh?  

It is simply not true that fewer ppl live or go near deer.  Suburban sprawl has us in homes right up against wooded areas and has caused a closer proximity between deer and ppl.  In fact, many consider the rise of Lyme to be an ecological impact of us invading forest regions to build our McMansions.  A deer tick only travels about 10 m or so in it's life (not counting the distance it may travel while on a host).  But deer and other tick carriers can travel large distances, and do just that when we force them out of their natural habitat.  These displaced carriers may be to blame for why now in recent years, Lyme has begun to show up in areas previously thought to be free of this infectious disease.

I agree that Lyme is not new.  But it is changing, and suburban sprawl is only one potential mechanism.  More and more, patients are presenting not just with Lyme, but with co-infections.  This could be one of many factors contributing to treatment complications.

Tick nymphs are the size of poppy seeds, and ticks like to attach in difficult to detect places like on the scalp.  They release chemicals into the skin to help prevent detection.  If detecting the tick were so simple, I'd think far fewer cases would go chronic before diagnosis.  I don't recall a tick bite in my life.

Who is our press agent?  I would like to fire him/her.  We lack universal acknowledgment of our disease and go through huge battles to get diagnosis/treatment.  Because of the controversies, many of us are not afforded any medical leave or other considerations at work.  In addition to the scrutiny from our bosses (if we're lucky enough to still be able to work at all), many of us have friends and family with no acceptance or appreciation.  Come to think of it, it'll be tough to get a good press agent for an illness that defies testing/treatment guidelines and leaves you sick, poor, and alone, and doubted.

As for curability, I'm much improved but not yet able to personally debunk the claim that it is incurable.  There are success stories out there, I hope to join their ranks soon.

I am extremely happy for anyone who can be skeptical about this.  I shared that view until I was personally affected.

[ott70]

It would also be narrow-minded to think that only deer and ticks are involved. I believe an infectious diseases lab here in the states has reported Lyme bacteria found in a mosquito. If a deer is the initial carrier, then we can assume that other bloodsuckers (mosquitos, flies, fleas) could stand a chance of being secondary carriers of the Lyme bacteria.

West Nile spread pretty quick across the US. It wouldn't surprise me if Lyme spread the same way, although ticks do seem to be the main carrier.

Maybe the 200,000 is accurate, but I'm not sure that everyone who contacts the Lyme bacteria actually develops the disease. We're all loaded with bunches of microbes, a "microbial soup" as one doctor told me. I think a person's immune system is going to dictate whether they get Lyme or not.

[Paxiled]

I'm not skeptical about the people who have it, just the numbers you're claiming.  It's like West Nile, a lot of mosquitoes caught in traps have it, but few people do.  I live in Virginia, where we have more mosquitoes than air, especially with the Asian tiger mosquitoes having moved in and biting all day.  Yet very few cases of West Nile have been reported so far.  Not saying there won't come a time when more people are infected, just that we shouldn't exaggerate these things.  It scares people who don't have it into believing they do.  The human immune system has been seriously degraded, but it's still pretty potent.  On the other hand, I completely understand your personal frustration -- I, too, have an ailment that most in the medical profession profess doesn't exist and have no treatment for, a prolonged withdrawal from Paxil.  My life has been ruined, and I can't find anyone who claims any knowledge of it even if I wasn't too anxious now to get anywhere.  But I am willing to admit few people have these exaggerated reactions to it.  I'm also willing to acknowledge that doctors are for the most part incompetent, lack curiosity, and don't listen to their patients, which makes it very hard to know anything with any certainty.  

[wonko]

As for the incidence of Lyme, the numbers are all over the  place.  Some Lyme advocates claim the CDC numbers to be only 10% of the actual number of cases.  Here are some quotes/sources from Pam Weintraub's "Cure Unknown:"

"more than 23,000 cases falling within the CDC's circumscribed definition for lyme disease." is from "Morbidity and Mortality" Weekly Report, March 30 2007; 54 no.53

The " a number the CDC estimates is 10% of the total such cases in the United States. At more than 200,00 new cases a year, Lyme has become one of the fastest growing spreading in fection in the United states." Reference: Telephone interview with C. Ben Beard, PhD. chief of Bacterial Disease Branch of the Division of Vector- Borne Infedtious Diseases of the CDC, 2007.

And here is a link to the CDC's reported numbers by state:

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvbid/lyme/ld_rptdLymeCasesbyState.htm

And finally, a quote from a Nature Medicine news feature:

"Lyme disease has since become the most
common tick-borne infection in North
America. Last year, the CDC received more than
27,000 reports of the disease, though the true
number of cases is probably much higher, says
CDC epidemiologist Kevin Griffith."

(Nature Medicine, vol 14 2008 p1135)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'd guess that the truth falls somewhere between the Lyme advocates' claim of 10-fold underestimation and the CDC reported cases that met the strict criteria.

I apologize if I come across as defensive, and appreciate that others are going through issues even more murky than Lyme.  

The bacteria do seem to be capable of adapting, and therefore transmission through non-tick vectors could be a danger now or in the (near?) future.  People who have had Lyme do not develop immunity to future reinfection, so I certainly HOPE other forms of transmission remain uncommon!

[ott70]

I also am not trying to be defensive or snippy towards anyone. Just throwing what I have read and what I am beginning to be believe.

I agree with Paxiled about the immune system which is why I prefer to handle things naturally rather than taking antibiotics. It's a tough road for people who take antibiotics and it's also a tough road the natural way. There is no easy answer.

[Paxiled]

Any way you look at it, those are daunting statistics.  The only saving grace (and that's a joke, there is no saving grace) is that only when enough people get something do people take it seriously.  We're not the brightest species!  Peace.

[antofloris]

HAVE YOU TRIED APITHERAPY? THE MOST POWERFUL NATURAL ANTIBIOTIC IS THE PROPOLIS, HELPFUL IS  ALSO THE POLLEN . ONE VERY EFFICINT THERAPY FOR YOUR DISEASE (AND FOR MORE OTHERS) IS THE TREATMENT WITH BEE STING ALIVE BUT FOR THIS YOU SHOULD CONTACT THE AMERICAN APITHERAPY SOCIETY .

[Paxiled]

These are very good ideas for research.  Bee pollen is one of the most nutrient rich foods available (and it tickles going down).  Royal jelly is even better (though a lot more expensive); feeding a bee royal jelly is the only thing that makes a queen a queen.  Any bee can become a queen if it's just fed royal jelly.  Bee venom has been used for rheumatoid arthritis, though I don't know how successful it's been statistically.  It's an interesting avenue for further research for people suffering the enduring effects of chronic Lyme.  Propolis is a mild antibiotic, probably not strong enough for Lyme, but in the mix it would probably be helpful.  The most powerful natural antibiotic is colloidal silver, and there are many specific antibiotics out there, such as Manukka honey for H pylori.  All honey actually contains antibiotic power in the form of something akin to good old hydrogen peroxide.

[sick and tired 47]

Hi!` I just saw an article from Dr. James Howenstein called "curing your lyme with samento/cats claw."
Here is the site:
http://www.newswithviews.com/Howenstine/james26.htm

Anyone ever heard of this?? Does it work??
Good luck to all!

[sick and tired 47]

Oops... see we already discussed it earlier... oh well... that my brain fog !!
Cats claw is still open for new discussion/opinions... check out the article above and see what you all think.
Thanks.

[margypops]

Yes I took it but truthfully I didnt give it a long enough chance ,it did make me feel quite sick, I had my blood work done last week and the results are due back tomorrow or Friday, all I coiuld get him to write on the order was TSH for thyroid and Lyme Titer...he thought it wasnt Lyme , but then he didnt want to listen to my symptoms at all he was a very short shrift Doctor, he wanted to be heard but not hear me, over ruled the fact I had learnt so much on the internet ,(here)  I thought his attitude sucked talk about listening to your patient I dont think it exists..... in Med school they are not taught anything about patient care ....

[sick and tired 47]

I found these two "natural" methods of treatment. Check out -
The Townsend letters ( google that and then lyme treatment)
and
the klinghardt method ( German Dr. here in US ).
Hope these help you out.
Good luck. Happy Healing!!!

[margypops]

I have only just spotted this I am going to google the methods of treatment you have put up here ,thanks .

[cjruz]

I beleive most people who think they have chronic lyme may have contracted a nematode or parasite along with lyme,maybe try antiparasitic herbs?

[margypops]

What are the names of antiparisitic herbs ? I will try anything, I have got some more cats claw and will start that soon, I have been unwell this last week with the usual symptoms, I think the very worse one is the hive rash that burns around my neck and tops of my arms, headaches in the mornings, stomach upset,, do you all find that the mornings are the worst I seem to be feeling okay by lunch time, I also have a very Low white cell count and high sugar they told me with the last CBC  I googled Lyme again and definatly with the co infections a low white cell count is evident.

[PlateletGal]

To answer your question... yes ! Dr. David Jernigan successfully treated his own lyme disease using herbal-homeopathic formulas. You might want to consider googling, "Hansa Center". I know at least two members here in MedHelp have visited his center and both of them were very impressed. I've also used some of Dr. Jernigan's formulas.

Best,

~PlateletGal

[Paxiled]

Most top herbal companies make an antiparasite formula -- makes it easier than buying them one by one.  The main herbs are black walnut, clove, but there are a few -- Eclectic Institute makes a good one if you prefer pills, Herb Pharm makes good tinctures, but there are several out there.

[margypops]

Thanks Paxiled I will ask my health food store,I think one tries anything to feel better ,I am not certain about parasites though ......

[cjruz]

If the herbals dont work try MMS or buy a zapper and use it on affected area.I just ordered one for $85.00 at the curezone,I think my best results came from invermectin from an online pharmacy.I am willing to try anything I hear may work.I have been thinking of trying quinine.I scare many people around her because I am used to speaking with people at the curezone who think outside the box of western medicine

[sick and tired 47]

Hi ! I hope you are doing well. Just a ?? Have you been checked for heavy metal Toxicity??  They havesome very similar symptoms according to my naturopath.

Good  luck!!

[ott70]

Humaworm is a good anti-parasitic herbal formula to check out. Most good natural anti-parasitics uses the same base three or four herbals and then a combination of other stuff they feel works well.

[cjruz]

I always wanted to try it,is it black walnut,wormwood and clove?how about old amish?

[ott70]

I believe black walnut, wormwood, and clove are the main components of Humaworm. I think you'll find that trinity in most herbal anti-parasite formulas.

Never heard of Old Amish.

[PlateletGal]

My friend just started Dr. Lee Cowden's protocol (all natural) and she claims that the formulas she's taking are more powerful than antibiotics.