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Abortion rights foes look to spread fetal pain law
http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2010/12/09/5619664-abortion-rights-foes-look-to-spread-fetal-pain-law
OMAHA — Abortion rights foes emboldened by a new Nebraska law that restricts late-term procedures based on the disputed notion that fetuses can feel pain after 20 weeks are pushing for similar legislation in other states, particularly those where Republicans won big in November.
National Right to Life held a strategy conference this week in Arlington, Va., to offer its state affiliates guidance for the 2011 legislative session. Indiana, Iowa and Kentucky lawmakers have already started drafting bills similar to Nebraska's law, and abortion opponents are pushing lawmakers in Kansas, Maryland and Oklahoma to do the same.
"What Nebraska did was fantastic," said Margie Montgomery, the executive director of Kentucky Right to Life. "That makes us more excited about it. Now we can point to it — it's already a law in Nebraska. That's really good for us."
Nebraska's law, which took effect Oct. 15, outlaws abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy based on the disputed claim that fetuses can feel pain after that point. It is a departure from the standard of viability, established by the 1973 landmark ruling in Roe v. Wade, which allows states to limit abortions in cases where there's a viable chance the fetus could survive outside of the womb, generally considered to be between 22 and 24 weeks.
Dr. LeRoy Carhart, one of the nation's few late-term abortion providers who runs a clinic near Omaha, and his backer, the New York City-based Center for Reproductive Rights, have threatened to challenge the Nebraska law in court. Dionne Scott, a spokeswoman for the center, said it would file a challenge "when the circumstances are appropriate." But losing such a challenge would risk having the court throw away the viability standard in favor of a pain standard, which could be further lowered should it be proven fetuses feel can feel pain earlier than 20 weeks.
While some doctors contend that fetuses can feel pain after 20 weeks, the American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists says it knows of no legitimate evidence showing a fetus can ever experience pain. It says a fetus' brain begins its final stage of development between the 20th and 40th weeks of pregnancy, and that certain hormones that develop in the final trimester also must be present for it to feel pain. It's not known exactly when those hormones form.
Nevertheless, the passage of Nebraska's law and the Republican Party's newfound power have emboldened those who want to outlaw abortion.
Mary Spaulding Balch, the legislative director for National Right to Life, said those working to outlaw abortion will be able to "do more in states where we haven't been able to do much in the past." She declined to name the states being targeted.
In Kentucky, Montgomery said, Republican gains in the state House offer hope for passage of a fetal pain law. She said several lawmakers have shown interest in introducing a bill, which would have to pass through committee before getting a floor vote.
"Once it gets to the floor, we know it's going to pass," she said.
House Minority Whip David Floyd, R-Bardstown, said at least two lawmakers are preparing a bill and agreed that it has a better shot — although not a definite one — at becoming law. He said he has no doubts it will pass in the Senate, which historically has been favorable toward abortion restrictions, but getting a floor vote in the House remains a challenge.
It "will depend, once again, on the Democratic majority, who are reluctant to let anything through pro-life on the floor," Floyd said.
Facing limitations in Nebraska, Carhart recently announced he was expanding his practice across the state line to Council Bluffs, Iowa, and in Germantown, Md., and Indianapolis — locations with less-restrictive state laws.
But lawmakers in Iowa and Indiana — wary of Carhart and hoping to play off strong Republican gains in their statehouses — are already drafting fetal pain legislation.
Rep. Matt Windschitl, a Missouri Valley Republican and a board member of Iowa Right to Life, said keeping Carhart out of Iowa will be among his highest priorities when the Legislature convenes next month. Republicans have gained control of the state House and governor's office and closed the gap in the state Senate. Windschitl said he's confident that a fetal pain bill will pass through the House and hopes it will gain traction in the Senate.
"This issue bridges party lines," he said. "Whether you're a pro-choice Republican or pro-choice Democrat, it doesn't matter. When you talk about killing a baby at 16-20 weeks, that's pretty far along and I think that's something everyone can get behind."
But with many states also facing budget problems, social issues such as abortion could fall to the wayside. Governors in Iowa, Indiana and elsewhere have pledged to make the budget a priority.
Indiana state Sen. Greg Walker, R-Columbus, said his colleagues have spoken at length about the priority that will be given to fiscal issues and he doesn't see the budget as a roadblock.
"We have the ability to entertain more than one idea at a time," said Walker, who is working with state Rep. Wes Culver, R-Goshen, on a fetal pain bill.
Republicans won control of the Indiana House in the November election, so the GOP now controls the House, Senate and governor's office. Walker said lawmakers in both parties have been receptive toward abortion restrictions but a change in House leadership makes the prospect of passing his bill much greater.
Carhart "has to leave Nebraska if he wants to practice as he has in the past . . . We're asking to him to find another home than Indiana," Walker said.
Jordan Goldberg, the legislative counsel for the Center for Reproductive Rights, said Nebraska's law and similar legislation "are about taking the decision about abortion away from a woman and her doctor — no matter what her circumstances might be — and giving the power to make that decision to legislators instead."
Goldberg said lawmakers have more serious issues than abortion — such as the economy — to worry about next session and shouldn't "waste state time" on fetal pain legislation that's not backed by medical science.
Hundreds of abortion opponents protested this week outside Carhart's new clinic in Maryland. Republican state Delegate Donald H. Dwyer, an anti-abortion leader in the Democrat-controlled Maryland General Assembly, said that amid heightened awareness prompted by Carhart's plans, he will organize like-minded legislators to propose bills next year tightening abortion-clinic regulations.
While not mentioning fetal pain specifically, Dwyer said: "We're going to look at all options to address the issue of late-term abortions in this state. I think it's a travesty that we continue to allow that and that we've never addressed it legislatively."
Abortion opponents in Kansas and Oklahoma say they're making a similar push for fetal pain legislation, but no lawmakers have publically announced their support.
___
Associated Press writers Michael J. Crumb in Des Moines, Iowa, and David Dishneau in Hagerstown, Md., contributed to this report.
OMAHA — Abortion rights foes emboldened by a new Nebraska law that restricts late-term procedures based on the disputed notion that fetuses can feel pain after 20 weeks are pushing for similar legislation in other states, particularly those where Republicans won big in November.
National Right to Life held a strategy conference this week in Arlington, Va., to offer its state affiliates guidance for the 2011 legislative session. Indiana, Iowa and Kentucky lawmakers have already started drafting bills similar to Nebraska's law, and abortion opponents are pushing lawmakers in Kansas, Maryland and Oklahoma to do the same.
"What Nebraska did was fantastic," said Margie Montgomery, the executive director of Kentucky Right to Life. "That makes us more excited about it. Now we can point to it — it's already a law in Nebraska. That's really good for us."
Nebraska's law, which took effect Oct. 15, outlaws abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy based on the disputed claim that fetuses can feel pain after that point. It is a departure from the standard of viability, established by the 1973 landmark ruling in Roe v. Wade, which allows states to limit abortions in cases where there's a viable chance the fetus could survive outside of the womb, generally considered to be between 22 and 24 weeks.
Dr. LeRoy Carhart, one of the nation's few late-term abortion providers who runs a clinic near Omaha, and his backer, the New York City-based Center for Reproductive Rights, have threatened to challenge the Nebraska law in court. Dionne Scott, a spokeswoman for the center, said it would file a challenge "when the circumstances are appropriate." But losing such a challenge would risk having the court throw away the viability standard in favor of a pain standard, which could be further lowered should it be proven fetuses feel can feel pain earlier than 20 weeks.
While some doctors contend that fetuses can feel pain after 20 weeks, the American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists says it knows of no legitimate evidence showing a fetus can ever experience pain. It says a fetus' brain begins its final stage of development between the 20th and 40th weeks of pregnancy, and that certain hormones that develop in the final trimester also must be present for it to feel pain. It's not known exactly when those hormones form.
Nevertheless, the passage of Nebraska's law and the Republican Party's newfound power have emboldened those who want to outlaw abortion.
Mary Spaulding Balch, the legislative director for National Right to Life, said those working to outlaw abortion will be able to "do more in states where we haven't been able to do much in the past." She declined to name the states being targeted.
In Kentucky, Montgomery said, Republican gains in the state House offer hope for passage of a fetal pain law. She said several lawmakers have shown interest in introducing a bill, which would have to pass through committee before getting a floor vote.
"Once it gets to the floor, we know it's going to pass," she said.
House Minority Whip David Floyd, R-Bardstown, said at least two lawmakers are preparing a bill and agreed that it has a better shot — although not a definite one — at becoming law. He said he has no doubts it will pass in the Senate, which historically has been favorable toward abortion restrictions, but getting a floor vote in the House remains a challenge.
It "will depend, once again, on the Democratic majority, who are reluctant to let anything through pro-life on the floor," Floyd said.
Facing limitations in Nebraska, Carhart recently announced he was expanding his practice across the state line to Council Bluffs, Iowa, and in Germantown, Md., and Indianapolis — locations with less-restrictive state laws.
But lawmakers in Iowa and Indiana — wary of Carhart and hoping to play off strong Republican gains in their statehouses — are already drafting fetal pain legislation.
Rep. Matt Windschitl, a Missouri Valley Republican and a board member of Iowa Right to Life, said keeping Carhart out of Iowa will be among his highest priorities when the Legislature convenes next month. Republicans have gained control of the state House and governor's office and closed the gap in the state Senate. Windschitl said he's confident that a fetal pain bill will pass through the House and hopes it will gain traction in the Senate.
"This issue bridges party lines," he said. "Whether you're a pro-choice Republican or pro-choice Democrat, it doesn't matter. When you talk about killing a baby at 16-20 weeks, that's pretty far along and I think that's something everyone can get behind."
But with many states also facing budget problems, social issues such as abortion could fall to the wayside. Governors in Iowa, Indiana and elsewhere have pledged to make the budget a priority.
Indiana state Sen. Greg Walker, R-Columbus, said his colleagues have spoken at length about the priority that will be given to fiscal issues and he doesn't see the budget as a roadblock.
"We have the ability to entertain more than one idea at a time," said Walker, who is working with state Rep. Wes Culver, R-Goshen, on a fetal pain bill.
Republicans won control of the Indiana House in the November election, so the GOP now controls the House, Senate and governor's office. Walker said lawmakers in both parties have been receptive toward abortion restrictions but a change in House leadership makes the prospect of passing his bill much greater.
Carhart "has to leave Nebraska if he wants to practice as he has in the past . . . We're asking to him to find another home than Indiana," Walker said.
Jordan Goldberg, the legislative counsel for the Center for Reproductive Rights, said Nebraska's law and similar legislation "are about taking the decision about abortion away from a woman and her doctor — no matter what her circumstances might be — and giving the power to make that decision to legislators instead."
Goldberg said lawmakers have more serious issues than abortion — such as the economy — to worry about next session and shouldn't "waste state time" on fetal pain legislation that's not backed by medical science.
Hundreds of abortion opponents protested this week outside Carhart's new clinic in Maryland. Republican state Delegate Donald H. Dwyer, an anti-abortion leader in the Democrat-controlled Maryland General Assembly, said that amid heightened awareness prompted by Carhart's plans, he will organize like-minded legislators to propose bills next year tightening abortion-clinic regulations.
While not mentioning fetal pain specifically, Dwyer said: "We're going to look at all options to address the issue of late-term abortions in this state. I think it's a travesty that we continue to allow that and that we've never addressed it legislatively."
Abortion opponents in Kansas and Oklahoma say they're making a similar push for fetal pain legislation, but no lawmakers have publically announced their support.
___
Associated Press writers Michael J. Crumb in Des Moines, Iowa, and David Dishneau in Hagerstown, Md., contributed to this report.
I am in the same camp as you, which is why I remain pro choice, although the idea of it is upsetting to me. However, late term is different as the fetus is considered viable. I personally think that terminations should have to take place in first trimester..and honestly that is plenty of time for a women to make that decision.
At the same time, self aborting or back room abortions are life threatening as well. However, I still think that while abortion should remain safe and legal, it should not be legal past a certain point.
At the same time, self aborting or back room abortions are life threatening as well. However, I still think that while abortion should remain safe and legal, it should not be legal past a certain point.
I am male, but am pro-choice. I also believe that I have no say what one can or cannot do with their bodies. Do I like the idea of abortions? No! Absolutely not, and I dont like the idea that abortions have become one of the more popular forms of birth control.
What I am more afraid of is that if all abortions become illegal, some women will take the matter into their own hands or worse. (Back room abortions)
This is a very volatile topic for discussion. While I am at it, I also think that one can protest abortion and abortion rights, but bombing an abortion clinic ius out of line
What I am more afraid of is that if all abortions become illegal, some women will take the matter into their own hands or worse. (Back room abortions)
This is a very volatile topic for discussion. While I am at it, I also think that one can protest abortion and abortion rights, but bombing an abortion clinic ius out of line
Yeah, and how about the infants who were born way too early? I know only a few survived born at 20 weeks or so. But after they are out of the womb, do they not feel pain? Of course they do. None of this makes sense.
well when you say they dont do saline abortions anymore because too many infants survive it..............that should say something right there!! UGH!!! Sickining:(
I didn't explain this very well last night( must have been tired!) when I said they videotaped this I should have said they did an ultrasound during the procedure to watch. I believe this may have been when they did the saline solution type abortions, which they don't do anymore, I believe, due to many infants surviving thiis type abortion.
They also noticed that the baby not only seemed to be trying to get away and thrashing but the baby's heartbeat went dramatically up, which highly suggests great distress.
To me, the signs are all there. The baby feels pain and distress and knows something terrible is happening and reacts to it.
I don't think anyone can watch this video and not be moved. I saw it a long time ago (and other videos on abortion) and it greatly affected me.
They also noticed that the baby not only seemed to be trying to get away and thrashing but the baby's heartbeat went dramatically up, which highly suggests great distress.
To me, the signs are all there. The baby feels pain and distress and knows something terrible is happening and reacts to it.
I don't think anyone can watch this video and not be moved. I saw it a long time ago (and other videos on abortion) and it greatly affected me.
I do think the baby feels pain, even earlier than 20 weeks. I watched the Silent Scream where they were video taping a couple of different abortions and it showed the baby arching it's back and what looked like thrashing like it was trying to get away as the carried out the abortion. This was the first time they had video taped an abortion (this film was made in the 80's) and they said the doctor that was performing the abortion was so shook up by the images of the baby squirming and trying to get away that he had to leave the room for a minute to compose himself until he could come back to complete the abortion.
Yes, I believe the baby feels pain.
You know, for the longest time they felt like newborn babies couldn't feel pain and that was one of the reasons why they did circumcisions without numbing or anesthesizing the area first. (they do routinely numb the area now) They now know that newborn babies do indeed feel pain and are discovering more and more that they are also smarter than we give them credit for.
We keep finding out more and more and learning more all the time. I think some day they will discover how wrong they were about so many things, including whether a fetus can feel pain or not.
Yes, I believe the baby feels pain.
You know, for the longest time they felt like newborn babies couldn't feel pain and that was one of the reasons why they did circumcisions without numbing or anesthesizing the area first. (they do routinely numb the area now) They now know that newborn babies do indeed feel pain and are discovering more and more that they are also smarter than we give them credit for.
We keep finding out more and more and learning more all the time. I think some day they will discover how wrong they were about so many things, including whether a fetus can feel pain or not.
Here the cutoff is 20 weeks. At that point the fetus is considered viable, so it becomes illegal after that point except in very extreme circumstances such as impending maternal death or something. Other then that, I want it to stay illegal.
Its legal here in Minnesota. I was offered one with my last pregnancy at 5 months along (20 weeks) I was very upset!! I dont understand how a baby wouldnt feel by then. So they are saying if they stick a vacume in you and try and suck "it" out, the baby would just be chill and relax??? That it wouldnt respond??? Or feel anything?? I hope the bill gets passed here, too many late abortions take place way too fruequently. I read a book that the roe vs. wade was stemed from (I forget the name of it) and was so saddened:(
Although I remain pro choice, I am not ok with late term abortions. They are illegal here as well, except in extreme circumstances. At least these folks are going about this the right way...trying to change the law as opposed to taking the law in their own hands.
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