There are now 71 openly Socialist members of Congress. They call themselves the Congressional Progressive Caucus. I'm sure you have heard the group 'liberals' substituted with the word ' progressives' in the main stream media dialogue. Now we know why...they have to take baby steps to introduce socialism to America and they have been doing so for decades. It looks to me as though socialism is coming to fruition very quickly now. Soon they will be able to say Socialist quite openly because the majority of the people will be getting "free" gifts from the Federal Government which Obama has promised to rebuild on the backs of the Middle Class people.
If anyone gets offended with that last statement please remember that Obama said it - Im just reminding you....and he didn't say "on our backs" but thats what it will be. He knows he will never get enough money from taxing the elite group of wealthy people in America. But I digress. A quote from article proclaiming the victory of the Congressional Progressive Caucus: " Don’t be fooled by their districts. The Congressional Progressive Caucus (CPC) is not a tiny faction of lawmakers representing radical university towns and well-heeled chardonnay sippers on the Left Coast. With the control of Congress formally shifting to the Democratic Party last month, the CPC is growing in size and influence. It is shifting into high gear and intends to bring its revolutionary vision to all of America."
I think it's okay to be very afraid now.
Actually, the problem is people who can't do simple math. They want all the Happy Days, Eisenhower era goodies like paved roads, police protection, fire protection, good schools, EMS service but don't want to pay for them. Our tax rate is much too low, but the thieves and tax cheats currently in control of the RNC have convinced the barefoot, unwashed masses they should be paying even less, and trickle down VooDoo will magically erase the National Debt. The Republican Party has been turned into the biggest bunch of want something for nothing whiners simply because they can't do the math.
Now that makes sense to me. We are paying the lowest taxes in 60 years, and the last time this country was really thriving was under Clinton, when taxes were much higher for everyone. I want to know where all this free stuff is cause it sure isn't coming my way! Here in lies the problem in this country. Anyone with an agenda going out of their way to convince us that we are not the united states of america anymore and that half of us are nothing but deadbeats who want free stuff! And they say there is no such thing as class warfare or corporate welfare to boot. sigh, and the beat goes on.
I have to agree that an article from 2007 doesn't really prove a point about today's Congress. Heck, that was a year before Obama was even elected the first time.
While there are definitely things I would like to see changed, I don't buy into the whole "socialism" fear mongering.
"With the control of Congress formally shifting to the Democratic Party last month, the CPC is growing in size and influence. It is shifting into high gear and intends to bring its revolutionary vision to all of America."
This is along the same lines as the claims made following Norquist's comments...the "list" that claimed the repubs would basically undo all of our civil rights progress. Just nonsense. I'm sorry, but I don't think either party has the kind of power some are willing to give them.
We have to stop fueling this kind of fire...it only deepens the party divide.
If all the tax evaders who have their money stashed in the Caymans and Zurich were paying their share, our nurses and teachers would be doing their jobs instead of walking a picket line for a living wage.
Personally, not a huge fan of Socialism. Even though the countries, like Sweden, that are nominally Socialist are better educated and healthier than we are, they give up a huge amount of privacy and other freedoms that we take for granted. I'd rather stay a snaggle-toothed, ignorant hilllbilly and keep my freedoms.
But that's just me.
I do take offense to the statement that the thieves and tax cheats in the RNC. In all honesty, we look for whatever method we can to pay less taxes including loopholes, deductions, etc.
Since this country needs money, I find myself saying that we should go ahead and tax the rich more. It's a desperate statement on my part. Because my sense of fairness says that those who are rich should not be financially penalizad because leaders of this country have made grave errors.
Because people want to keep what they have does not make them thieves or tax cheats.
This red neck hillbilly wants to keep what she's got and if I have extra, I'll give it to ya but don't appreciate others feeling entitled to it.
I forgot the rest of the quote beyond the thieves and tax cheats but wanted to comment that the further classification of biggest want something for nothing whiners is not something I'd put on Republicans as that is how I see many on the other side.
Please explain to me why you believe that it is sound policy to tax unearned income more preferentially than earned income.
People who work for a living are taxed at a higher rate than people who live off dividends, interest and capital gains
Romney's tax returns showed that he paid roughly 14% federal income tax. I don't make 10's of millions a year but I do pay a significantly higher rate than Romney.
Please, tell me why that's good for this country.
If what he's doing is allowed and legal, I can't see how it's anybody's business. He also contributes a hell of a lot more the charities than most of us EVER will, AND, when he spends his millions, he stimulates our economy.
I'd be willing to bet that ANY person making a statement like yours above would do the exact same thing Romney does with his money if you found yourself a multi millionare. And don't tell me you'd be thrilled with paying 70% or so in tazes because it is the "right" thing to do.
Who cares how a person gets their wealth? If they got an inheritance, or worked the stock market, God Bless them. They are smart to take EVERY deduction and loophole they have coming to them....otherwise they get taxed to death,. I don't care how many millions a person has...they still aren't going to want to just give it away. I don't begrudge people for having what they do.
dsert, I agree with you wholeheartedly, Mike that is an excellent question as well. Between the two of you, you pretty much summed it up.
I work hard, damn hard for my money. I have no problems paying more taxes, in fact I feel like this low tax rate has helped get us where we are today. We started two unfunded wars and gave tax cuts across the board during the same time period. Um, Im not a genius, but that was not a real economically smart move any way you look at it. imo
Now the cuts that were deemed temporary need to expire. I guess if ya want to call that a tax increase instead, go for it. Bottom line is before the tax cuts, we were paying more taxes and we were not in this mess. And reform the tax code and do away with the loopholes for all walks of like as well.
The money I put into my investments was earned at one time, wasn't it?
It's not just the super rich that want to save on their taxes and while I do agree that the tax code needs to be looked at, I am not sure if a person who saved, did the right thing by living below their means and investing so that when they are elderly, they'll have to rely on assistence less or if they have some major issue come about that they can rely on their own investments to help them rather than depend on others for help. Every extra dollar I give up in taxes is less I can use for that purpose.
I don't have a fancy lifestyle that I'm trying to keep---- but I do appreciate a system that allows me to invest and make some money on it. Call me greedy if you want to, I don't much care. I'm not in my heart. I'm a citizen of this country that earned what I have and do want to keep as much as possible. yep, I do. When I die, it would be great to leave something to my children that I dearly love rather than paying it to taxes for things I don't love. I imagine that wealthy people feel the same way.
OKay, so how about a consumption tax? Do away with income tax completely, and tax everything people buy. Then, the playing field is leveled more, right? If you want something, you buy it and pay the taxes. That also solves the issue of people not paying their taxes, etc.
It wouldn't be perfect, but I think it would be GREAT!
Anytime THAT is brought up, people like to shut it down, I dont get it. Who wouldn't want that extra 30-40% in their pay? Then THEY are in charge of what they do and don't...or can or can't buy.
And I'll say it again--- biggest whiners that want something for nothing are NOT Republicans. We just want to keep what we earn and a system that is fair. Republicans that take advantage of the tax code as written today are not thieves or tax cheats.
People yell about equal rights, and such. HOW is it fair to ask only a certain group of people to pay MORE?? Wealthy people aren't entitled to a fair playing field? Especially when our leaders got us into a lot of the mess we're in...you're going to ask them to pay even MORE than they're already contributing a LOT?
What if there WERE no wealthy people? Well, actually, there will be less of them keeping their money here I'm sure. The amount wealthy people pay in taxes is already astronomical. I've gone up and down tax brackets and if you've never experienced it, it's unreal. It could actually break a person.
I know Mike doesn't like personal examples, but oh well. My parents are wealthy..not Romney wealthy, but pretty well off. My dad worked hard, and invested a LOT in the market. He utilizes every deduction and loophole he can and is STILL paying an obscene amt in taxes.
Some of his investments, basically get taxed twice. Now, my parents wouldn't fall into that top 1%, but if they did, it would NOT be fair. A LOT of the money they have is from investments...that doesn't count? That's less "honorable" somehow than income from a paycheck? That's offensive. My dad worked hard to save, to work the market, he took losses, you name it. HE'S the kind of person who stimulates our economy. They're generous to a fault with charities, they're not extravagant, but they obviously buy things like a house, cars, investments, etc.
My dad has every right to hold onto his money, the same way everyone else would. He worked hard for it, both at a 40 yr long job, abnd through investing.
That's kind of what a consumptiono tax is...you pay taxes on anything you consume. There have been models made, if everyone paid a flat like 10% tax on anything purchased, it would generate the same, if not more than income tax would...plus, you can't get any fairer than that!
Oh, I'm not claiming to know what we should do or to be an expert and definately take the hint that this is well known here but am not certain why it is a bad thing to want to pay as little taxes as possible. I'm one of those tax cheats and thieves I guess.
Pfffft. is right NG! I was just wondering what those who feel Republicans are wrong for working to be in the mix of fairness (knowing that some think just because one is wealthy it is unfair for them to not WANT to pay more taxes) thought of a flat tax rate.
But that's okay. I am NOT an expert in any way obviously nor do I think I have a novel ideas to help the situation.
It is only the wealthy who can hide their tax dollars in offshore accounts. This makes it harder on the poor. There is only so much wealth to go around and when someone makes more in one day off of their interest, than many make in a year, and hide their money offshore as to not pay taxes something is broken with the system.
Personally being the anti-war person I am, I think this is where we need to stop sending our money. I don't want one dime of mine to go to making drones.
Has anyone wondered about all that super pac money that was spent ?
Where did it go ? Did the hidden corporate donor make ads, spending millions at a company he already owns ? Did the money go out of one pocket and into another ?
I am sorry but I do not think the expectation of wealthy who have more should want to give it over just because they have it. Yes, pay your fair share but they should be able to take advantage of any tax breaks that I do. And I personally don't enjoy capital gains taxes and things like that. Some people live off that earned income from investments at some point and as I said, every dollar I fork over is one less I have to sustain myself.
Desrt referred to tax evaders who hide their money off shore.
I don't care if you keep your money on an offshore island or in jars buried in the back yard. But when you have multimillionaires not paying taxes because of where they hide their money, and teachers aren't being paid, bridges aren't getting repaired, then that is problematic, don't ya think?
But, not everyone who utilizes off shore bank accts are tax evaders. There are MANY advantages to having them...ease of withdrawaling and depositing money, more security (especially with our sometimes unstable banking system...and the fact that they typically will only insure up to a certain amt). If you have multi million dollars, you aren't going to your local branch in town. Not to mention, there is more potential for earning, savings wise. Open a savings acct here, you'll be lucky to get 1.5% interest back...overseas, the return is much higher.
If the accounts are reported (like Romney's), he's not hiding anything, and he would still have to pay taxes on income going into those accounts. He would just get more breaks and benefits that he wouldn't get here. His money in those accounts is reported. He (just as an example) didn't do anything illegal.
I think that wanting to save yourself tax money is not a crime nor a sin. No one has to agree with me. And if people see other countries as a better place to keep their money and they legally place their money there, we should call them tax evaders and theives?
If you earn a dollar in this country, whether by owning stock in Wal-Mart or by doing pick and shovel in a ditch, chances are, an American paid you that dollar.
Now, let's leave the whole tax issue aside. If you don't see the value of educating the generation that will be paying your social security or you resent buying a back brace for the guy stocking the shelves at said Wal-Mart, that's a whole other issue.
Instead, just think of the consequences of taking that dollar out of circulation in this country and letting it work for a foreign bank.
Now, multiply that by several trillions.
And yes Barb, it should be illegal, but there's no way to do it without the world economy collapsing.
If you want our country to prosper, than you keep your money here.
Don't complain about the state of our country if you don't care where your money is or who it is benefiting as long as your getting yours.
Does it matter to you if the bank took your investment and used it to have child slave labor working in diamond mines in Africa ?
You don't like it when I say it, but the central problem we face is greed including and perhaps especially our own.
Well, I have a hard time knowing what is involved in my mutual funds but some are indeed global. I've diversified.
You can talk about greed, it doesn't bother me. I'm not greedy. And I don't think people that want to keep what they earn are greedy.
My goal? To be able to live without any financial help of anyone when I/my husband retires and to have a little something left over for my boys when we pass as I'm an old mom and they will lose me young (ish).
So, you can call me greedy any day of the week but I know the truth. I am taking care of my families needs.
Sometimes OH, I think you'd be happy in a utopian society and the very idea of some being poor (through their lack of effort . . . and that IS the case for some) while some are rich (no matter that it was through their OWN effort) is unethical to you. I don't agree with that. And if the poor can't strive to be rich through their own efforts---- they'll never be motivated to do so. (and I am NOT a 'rich' lady. I'm comfortable some days and scrimping pennies others. and I will tell you that I do know first hand that you don't know what life will bring you and things can drastically change. Such is life in my opinion as I've been a victem to BIG changes as well.)
We see things differently. I'm okay with that if you are.
One of the problems with global investments, and our whole concept of a global economy today, is the necessity of being a global military power to protect our interests. We sorta can't afford that right now, especially as some of our creditors/trading partners have the same ambitions.
The grandstanding in Burma and Cambodia about how much we looooove democracies, is more of the same that we've heard from every administration since the Banana Republics. We've never cared if the name was Gandhi or Pinochet as long as it was a safe place to invest.
Well, may be desrt. However, most anyone that has investments of any sort will have something global for diversification. I have all my mutual funds with one company (which has America in its name) and within that, there are different funds. Some are global and what is in them change on and off based on what the fund manager does. (I guess . . . from what i understand).
I'm not some rich lady here . . . my dad was a saver and an invester of what he saved. Go figure that I married a man very much like this. He has my two boys earn money, save it in a bank, when the bank is full--- they take a third to the bank, a third goes to our church or if something is going on at school charity wise and they get to use the last third to buy something for themselves. They go to the bank and go through the whole process. And he had them each buy some shares of stock in a company that is headquartered here in our city. (my kids are 8 and 7).
I think some here would think that my husband is teaching my boys to be greedy but I'm happy that my kids are exposed to a tried and true method of being secure financially. I want that for them. And they may get a smaller 'toy' that they buy themselves but we show them how their bank account is growing instead. They are learning the trade off.
Well, anyway, I guess it is differences of opinion about these issues.
If they take away the ability to keep money in offshore accounts, I can live with that. But some other things proposed to make the wealthy pay more will hit a lot more than just the wealthy.
If you want our country to prosper, than you keep your money here.
Think about it...there's little incentive (in some cases) to keep money here. Look at the example of my husband's friend who wanted to go with an American made product...not only did he find out it was going to hinder his production, it was actually impossible.
If you won the lotto tomorrow, $250,000, and you could earn 1% in an American bank, and 10% in a Cayman bank, you're telling me you would choose the American bank out of principle? (If you say yes, I may give you many winkie faces...lol) If this country wants people to keep their money here, they need to make it more lucrative to do so. You can call that greed, I call it looking out for one's own financial well being.
You already have wealthy people taking their money elsewhere for this very reason, THEN you're going to make them pay more in taxes, what do you think is going to happen? They're going to keep even less money here. That's counterproductive.
Hey, it would be great if, out of principle, people could choose "American", but it often doesn't benefit people, and people HAVE to look out for their own interests..if people stopped doing that, you have even MORE people who cannot sustain themselves, and who may eventually become dependent on gov't help.
"Sometimes OH, I think you'd be happy in a utopian society and the very idea of some being poor (through their lack of effort . . . and that IS the case for some) while some are rich (no matter that it was through their OWN effort) is unethical to you. "
I understand how you can think this from reading my words here.
You are right, I would love to live in an utopian society. My ideal would be a world which is self sustaining,with clean air, healthy food, no war, a place where people share and care.
However, "the idea that some are poor through no lack of effort and others are rich is unethical to me . " Isn't true. I don't find it unethical but I can understand how you could think that by what I sometimes write.
I don't believe in Socialism ( except for things like the library system) because it isn't real and it doesn't work.
There are inequalities in the world, in nature. Its factual and actual.
What bothers me is not that there is a gap between the rich and the poor but that the gap has grown so huge with the smallest 1% of 1% gobbling up all while many have none.
As far as you or anyone else for that matter, doing what they want with their money, I say, just be aware. That's what I aim for, awareness.
If you complain about the finances of this country, then know how your money being in an overseas account may contribute to the problem.
Hope you have a happy Thanksgiving. I'm off tomorrow to see my mom:)
OH, you know I've always liked you and I really enjoyed your post here. Partly because it is so very true that in a place like the CE where you take "a side" it is very easy to jump to conclusions about people or see them as black and white when in reality we are all grey. We all believe things in varying degrees but when we write, it can come off as only seeing things one way. I'm sure the misconceptions about me and my belief system are pretty huge based on how I write things in the heat of the moment here.
I want to clarify that I don't have any money outside the us per se, I invest with an American mutual fund company that has some global funds in its mix. I have probably 10+ mutual funds with the same company American based company. Each fund is a little different with the premise that you pool your money with others and the risk is spread across many companies so you are safer (I guess. . . in all honesty, money/finances are NOT my thing and my eyes glaze over whenever anyone tries to seriously talk to me about it. My husband likes it.)
We are not rich people. Yes, we are lucky enough. I worked for many years and we didn't have kids until later which helped us put away a nest egg (the investments I speak of) because we've always lived on as little as possible. Lately we haven't been able to save a whole lot but still try.
"And yes Barb, it should be illegal, but there's no way to do it without the world economy collapsing. "
"If you want our country to prosper, than you keep your money here."
"If you complain about the finances of this country, then know how your money being in an overseas account may contribute to the problem."
I know these comments were made by 2 different people, but aren't they something of a double standard? Isn't the world economy, somewhat dependent on ours and ours on it?
On one hand, keeping our money here is best, but if we do, we'll destroy the world economy; yet putting money in offshore accounts and/or investing in foreign companies (and making money), is somehow obscene. It can't be both ways...........
There are a lot of people who have investments in foreign entities, via mutual funds and they don't even know it. That, in no way, makes them bad people or selfish. I'm even older than SM and I don't have a lot of investments; my money is right here in the good ole US of A and I don't see that that's done a lot to help our economy (of course, it's only "pocket change" for many).
It seems that when people work hard and do a good job managing their money, they are made out to be "bad guys", because there are still poor people....... there has always been, and there will always be, poor people; some through no fault of their own (illness, handicaps, etc), others because they squander what they make. It's not up to those who work hard, save and invest to take care of those who could work hard, save and invest, but choose not to. It's only right to care for those who can't (vs won't) care for themselves and nobody is begrudging that care.
I dont know that much about investments personally, I have never been fortunate enuff to get a stash big enuff to start investing it. I do agree that one is responsible for doing the best they can in life to take care of ones self. I have wealthy siblings that do invest and live off the interest of those investments. I guess when you can go out and purchase with cash, two matching lexus cars, your considered to have money. That is what my niece did and I dont begrudge her that nor do I begrudge the wealthy people I work for. But the people I work for do not look down their noses at those who are not as fortunate as them either. I really dont like this war between the haves and the have nots that has been going on. Im not sure how it ever got started in the first place, but it sure aint healthy for any of us.
The gap is too wide and it should not be imo. How to resolve that is why we elect leaders to do the right thing. Im not smart enuff to figure it all out.
No, it is NOT healthy for anyone teko, you're right. You have people on one side making assumptiions that everyone who is poor is just lazy, then you have people on the other side who demonize people who have done well for themselves. I guess that's human nature, to some degree, but it's a shame.
I HONESTLY think we're our own worst enemy a lot of times. If the US is making it impossible to produce products here affordably, and if the banking system doesn't improve, become more secure, and start offering better incentives, it's a no brainer we're going to continue to lose to overseas interests. Our leaders need to wake up, and rather than pointing the finger at people taking their money/business elsewhere, find out WHY, and fix it. Global trading/investing is always going to be an intregal part of our success, but it can be improved as well.
I remember having a savings acct (passbook) for my kids that would earn somewhere around 6%. That's unheard of now. I'm not ancient, I'm 40, so it's not like I'm gauging these changes over a lifetime of 80 years. It's sad.
This is a good time to be thankful for what we DO have, I know I am. My hubby works SO hard for us, and while I appreciate him so much, I know I don't say it enough. It shouldn't take Thanksgiving to make me aware of that. In such a busy and hectic life, it's important for all of us, that while we don't have all the answers, and while there are some scary things going on in the world, we should be grateful for the things we're blessed with...family, friends, a roof over our heads, our health (those of us that have it).
I want a stronger, better America. I'm very proud to be an American, and I KNOW we can do So so so much better. I pray that our leaders wake up, toss the party line, and get back to fixing the things that are messed up.
I wish you ALL a Happy Thanksgiving, my friends. May you enjoy love and blessings, tomorrow, and always.
I think if someone who knew nothing about this country came to this board and read some of these threads, because of whats often said, they'd believe that it is only the Republicans in this country that are wealthy.
With Romney.... everyone was having a $hit fit over his money and him "being able to do what he wants because he's so rich". When you point out the fact that 6 of the 10 richest senators in this country are just as near as wealthy (or more wealthy, for that matter) are democrats.... the conversation grinds to a halt or the subject matter changes.
Wealth runs across party lines. The very things that some of us here dislike about the Republicans are the very same things the wealthy Democrats are doing. It's okay people....just realize it and move along.
Take this nations financially elite, the philanthropists who give so freely of their money and time to organizations and causes too numerous to name, out of the equation and you're going to face a $hit storm like you've never seen. It would be the demise of probably every non-profit that helps the un/under employed, and that alone would contribute to the gap between the rich and poor and create more animosity..... If the rich quit giving, where will that money come from, and who will suffer?
People having money in an off shore account isn't close to the problem here. Pick another cause.... It's legal..... American businesses going over seas is much closer to the heart of the problem, so we need to figure out why businesses are leaving and get them to come back here and set up shop.
Profit, as much as you may dislike the term, is what drives this economy. If a producer cannot generate revenue, they close down shop and that equals less jobs. More and more jobs going over seas is less and less jobs here.
That is why I thought we elected these wonderful government officials. To help America prosper in every sense of the word.
Steve Forbes offers Obama Democrats a startling piece of advice as they head into budget talks to avoid the so-called ‘fiscal cliff’ – raise taxes to Clinton-era levels but only alongside the former president's policies that strengthened the dollar, loosened economic restrictions and reduced federal spending.
Forbes, who is the editor of Forbes and a leading Republican Party anti-tax advocate, argues in his latest editorial that Bill Clinton’s America had less regulation and bureaucracy and did not take on health care reform as the economy grew.
Forbes argues for the repeal of Obamacare and smaller government, suggesting: “Federal spending as a proportion of the economy was smaller in those days. That would mean budget cuts now of around $500 billion – not spread over ten years, but right now. How likely is that?”
He also suggests it’s time for President Obama to ditch Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke and his stifling monetary policies. If Obama is serious about prosperity, Forbes writes, “he has to combine Clinton tax rates with the former president’s wise management of the economy that encouraged free enterprise and a true recovery. If not, we will see a return to recession in 2013 and continue on our current path toward European-style malaise and stagnation.”
Yes, ditch Bernanke and his stifling monetary practices, I agree.
Barb, Sm et al, On re-thinking keeping our money in US banks, really unless we bank at small local banks or credit unions, we have no idea where our money is being used. We can't trust Bank or America, Wells Fargo or Chase to keep our money here to help our country.
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