Aa
Symbols of a Christian Nation
Well every day there is something new, mostly negative information in the news, today I wake to hear that all religious symbols have been banned ffrom the Capitol in Washington.No Christmas tree or Mennorah ,you know between the crosses being covered up in the hills, and trying to stop us using words like Christmas for Holidays ,what are they trying to do to America it was founded by the pilgrims as a Christian Nation, I dont get it , is anyone going put a STOP to all this ;Change' transformation,;remaking ? where will it end........ Communism, Marxism ..........
Thats Okay, I didn't mean you.:) I meant Flmagi, but she said it was an oversight.
My apologies for not adding to my post, the authors name. I usually copy and paste to a separate file, which sometimes ends up being a collection of things I've read. Then I copy and paste from the file to the post. If I haven't had all my morning coffee, sometimes I'll leave things out or add things that may be off topic. Sorry, I need to recheck what I post or wait til I've had all my morning coffee.
Iam not an atheist, but I liked what he had to say. People are saying we're a "Christian Nation", since the majority may be Christian, so in turn, are we also a "White Nation"? Or a "Blond (or) Brunette Nation"? I feel by classifying the nation one way or another, sends a message that the others are not an acceptable people. I'm curious how Christians would feel if we had a Jewish President and instead of the White House Xmas Tree they put up a big Menorah? I'm betting there would be a lot of (perhaps unspoken) resentment.
My point being...Just because America may have a majority of Christians, does not make it a Christian nation. This nation was founded on religious freedom. Whatever religion, not just what the majority is. Our founding fathers may (or may not) have been mainly Christians, but their intent was to make this country accepting of all faiths or non-faiths.To make this country freer than the countries they originally came from.
It's not right to blame the president or even the government for calling the season the "holidays" instead of just Christmas. Our Governors,Senators, and President are pressured by other groups to make the Holidays "all inclusive". Ya know, it can't be easy, trying to make Every group happy. And that is what people want, to be recognized and not have the contrary pushed in their face, whether it be religion, race, sex, or ability or disability, etc. A country that does it's best to make everyone accepted is far from socialism. As long as this country accepts all the differences we have and takes care of the underprivileged, we will never be a socialized country.
Iam not an atheist, but I liked what he had to say. People are saying we're a "Christian Nation", since the majority may be Christian, so in turn, are we also a "White Nation"? Or a "Blond (or) Brunette Nation"? I feel by classifying the nation one way or another, sends a message that the others are not an acceptable people. I'm curious how Christians would feel if we had a Jewish President and instead of the White House Xmas Tree they put up a big Menorah? I'm betting there would be a lot of (perhaps unspoken) resentment.
My point being...Just because America may have a majority of Christians, does not make it a Christian nation. This nation was founded on religious freedom. Whatever religion, not just what the majority is. Our founding fathers may (or may not) have been mainly Christians, but their intent was to make this country accepting of all faiths or non-faiths.To make this country freer than the countries they originally came from.
It's not right to blame the president or even the government for calling the season the "holidays" instead of just Christmas. Our Governors,Senators, and President are pressured by other groups to make the Holidays "all inclusive". Ya know, it can't be easy, trying to make Every group happy. And that is what people want, to be recognized and not have the contrary pushed in their face, whether it be religion, race, sex, or ability or disability, etc. A country that does it's best to make everyone accepted is far from socialism. As long as this country accepts all the differences we have and takes care of the underprivileged, we will never be a socialized country.
Sorry---
I thought it was one of the quotes of a list in this question of the forum. When I looked back, of course it is not there. There are so many quotes, and that one really got me, that anyone would even list it. Mostly I have kept up on this question on the forum, so I didn't re-check. I will try to be more careful.
Thanks, Myown for helping me out on it.
Also, for posting the information about the Netherlands..........How horrible..
RJ
I thought it was one of the quotes of a list in this question of the forum. When I looked back, of course it is not there. There are so many quotes, and that one really got me, that anyone would even list it. Mostly I have kept up on this question on the forum, so I didn't re-check. I will try to be more careful.
Thanks, Myown for helping me out on it.
Also, for posting the information about the Netherlands..........How horrible..
RJ
Ya know what - I agree with many things you say. We might not have the same religious beliefs, but I feel we are very much a like as far as our sincerity in what we believe and that is good because we then have "common ground" and with that we can always have a civil discussion which makes things enjoyable and interesting.
And yes, the extremism is scary especially when government gets a hold of it and we then see "assisted suicide," though to tell you the truth, the horrible treatment I was on for hcv - I gladly would have taken a gift certificate from Dr. Korvorkian as a gift from hubby:) j/k sorta , I think,....:)
gotta go, see ya's later if I can get back,
MO
ps - and thanks I will check out that book.
And yes, the extremism is scary especially when government gets a hold of it and we then see "assisted suicide," though to tell you the truth, the horrible treatment I was on for hcv - I gladly would have taken a gift certificate from Dr. Korvorkian as a gift from hubby:) j/k sorta , I think,....:)
gotta go, see ya's later if I can get back,
MO
ps - and thanks I will check out that book.
There I agree. Science is important to humanity but it need not overstep the boundaries of religion and on its own is quite capable of immorality. You can google "Peter Singer" who is a "bioethicist" at Princeton University and believes that a chimpanzee should have the same legal rights as a human being and that a child with a severe disability should be euthanized. He is often cited in the New York Times as an example of an "ethicist" and interviewed and I and many members of the disability community have written and spoken out against him. That's just one example. People as a whole cannot be defined by a series of scientific facts and that's just as capable of generating immorality as some of those people accuse religion of. You might want to read "Forced Exit: the Slippery Slope from Assisted Suicide to Legalized Murder" as those ideas have been put in place in the Netherlands and created legalized active euthanasia (some of it against children with severe disabilities without consent). Different debate but that's what that kind of extremism leads to. Extremism and coercing people in regards to a particular ideology of any kind is wrong and anti-American. There I completely agree.
Here's the site from which flmagi posted. I never have a problem posting who the Christian author is if I copy and paste something. Please, if anyone posts an Atheists views - try to remember to post who they are. If you agree with an Atheist, thats your choice, but I for one would like to know who is speaking - though my hunch was correct.
http://atheism.about.com/od/americachristiannation/a/AmericaChristianNation.htm
http://atheism.about.com/od/americachristiannation/a/AmericaChristianNation.htm
http://atheism.about.com/bio/Austin-Cline-5577.htm
The one who said that is Austine Cline - an Atheist, which I figured as soon as I read the post - so I looked him up.....
Though he has all that to say about Christianity - take a look at something he says...
"Both atheism and agnosticism are neglected in popular culture, despite the popularity of recent books by atheists. When was the last time you saw an openly atheist politician, an article on atheism in a major periodical, or anyone discussing secular humanism as a serious alternative to religion?"
Though he has all that to say about Christianity - take a look at something he says...
"Both atheism and agnosticism are neglected in popular culture, despite the popularity of recent books by atheists. When was the last time you saw an openly atheist politician, an article on atheism in a major periodical, or anyone discussing secular humanism as a serious alternative to religion?"
There I'd want to know who said that. The church has always been an important part of the lives of many African Americans. After the early 70's the black power movement began to dwindle down. There are a few extremists left but they don't have much respect. As for people that are Jewish, they are indeed of all nationalities. In Israel there are the black Israelites for example that came from Ethiopia. If some people in office such as Eric Halder are playing the race card its just because they are self defensive. I would think in time this kind of ignorance will pass. Its a time of the year to mend fences, not to create antagonism and any public official that is participating in that is completely in the wrong.
Declaring no recognition of Faith of any kind, is a religion in itself. I think it is called Humanism. It strips Faith from all of us. I do take offense however, that a Christian Nation is a "White" Nation. Christians are of all creeds and colors. So where did that come from? Is that why we call it the White House? Besides, what is "white"? People of a lighter color is not classification to be lumped together. Why do you think make-up comes in many colors. Unless a person is pure blood Indian, they are made up from people that came from other Countries. Indians are not classified as white, though there are many that through mixtures have made them take on that appearance. "White- colored-people" could be Swedish, or German, or something else. There are Jewish people that have blond hair and blue eyes, not typical of how a person thinks of Jewish people. This land was seeked for freedom, religion was a cause of their search, but the control that was endured, caused religion to be worshiped as their Country ruled, not as the person believed. That is why it states in our Foundation Documents that the government cannot establish a religion for all of us to follow. Closing down worship of any of our Faiths, is the Faith of Nothing. If a person has a faith of any kind or none at all, to preserve worship in this Country, will see what ever worship center is built, or things they use to celebrate or declare their beliefs. Muslim women wear their clothing that is a Monument to their Faith. So why is Christianity such an issue? This battle needs to stop, because every faith and belief, will be filled with no faith and no god for any of us, and our choices to worship will be gone. Stopping any faith from what they say and how they celebrate, will affect all of us, then we will be right back to Government controlling ALL people. It is dangerous to strip the Country of Freedom to worship and Freedom to talk. Suppose it turns from your choice to some god no one ever heard of, and the Government decides that is who all of us will bow to? If they can take away Rights, they can put whatever they want in it's place. It is also dangerous to lose the Freedom of our own bodies, which is the next Freedom attack. It is not like the Government hasn't lied to us.
Yes well I'll read that as well. I think its unfortunate that in the outside world that Christmas itself and its symbols has become a contestation on either side. The specific meaning of the American government and how exactly the founders of our country believed was another. One would have to read about their whole lives and especially their writings in full to understand it. Alexis de Tocqueville's writings are especially important and those I have read because he was impressed by the working democracy the United States had and wanted to carry over the ideas to Europe. Regardless of religious belief all of the people who wrote the constitution or declaration of independence believed in the right to individuality and freedom of expression, something not possible before and within the United States not possible when we were colonies and it is of course the United States was the first country to create such a working democracy that other countries achieved or at least tried to. That much has been understated in history books that show America as being in the wrong, when those were individual incidents or failed policies, not the ideology of the United States as a whole.
One must see how this plays out in the outside world. In my apartment complex, there is a full Christmas display with a nativity scene. No one, including myself is upset about it or has tried to interfere. The local synagogues have menorahs on display. There is at least one mosque and they don't have specific displays as there is no specific holiday at this time of year that calls for it nor does their religion call for displays within it. The various religions and the various ways they celebrate it co-exist. One should not detract from another. As for what part religion should play in decisions the American government makes and when that is a very specific matter pertinent to each decision and how it affects America as a whole. Religious freedom must always be preserved regardless as that is an alienable right. As I said president Obama does go to church and has supported faith charities so since he within some larger scale decisions supports freedom of religion I don't think altering how Christmas is celebrated or displayed or it is good politics or productive overall. America has a whole history of thought and freedom of expression and religion is part of many people's lives and they should have that right. America does have an increasing number of cultures and belief systems but devaluing one at the expense of another is clearly wrong. In time, a more constructive dialogue will emerge about it on a national scale but this is not the right way.
One must see how this plays out in the outside world. In my apartment complex, there is a full Christmas display with a nativity scene. No one, including myself is upset about it or has tried to interfere. The local synagogues have menorahs on display. There is at least one mosque and they don't have specific displays as there is no specific holiday at this time of year that calls for it nor does their religion call for displays within it. The various religions and the various ways they celebrate it co-exist. One should not detract from another. As for what part religion should play in decisions the American government makes and when that is a very specific matter pertinent to each decision and how it affects America as a whole. Religious freedom must always be preserved regardless as that is an alienable right. As I said president Obama does go to church and has supported faith charities so since he within some larger scale decisions supports freedom of religion I don't think altering how Christmas is celebrated or displayed or it is good politics or productive overall. America has a whole history of thought and freedom of expression and religion is part of many people's lives and they should have that right. America does have an increasing number of cultures and belief systems but devaluing one at the expense of another is clearly wrong. In time, a more constructive dialogue will emerge about it on a national scale but this is not the right way.
Hey margy,
Are you kidding me - you know more than most people that were born here. Maybe you mean as far as the religious end, but as far as history and stuff, you seem to be on top of it all. But anyhow, I'll paste something that I came across - I like what this guy points out as far the discussion on deists. I found it interesting.
And if you go to the site, you will find some stuff on separation of church and state etc - which I am sure you know that this whole separation of church and state - the way it is being interpreted is all wrong....
Our History Books Are Being Rewritten.
By Chris Van Buskirk
"American History is being systematically revised and this process has permeated not only schools, but the mass media as well. In virtually every venue where information is placed before the public, it seems these false views are commonly accepted. Abraham Lincoln stated that the philosophy of the schoolhouse today is the philosophy of government tomorrow. There are many topics in History that are not taught as they actually happened, but as some with an agenda wished they happened. Here are three that are particularly offensive:
First: Our Founding Fathers Were Not Deists.
"de·ism [d ìzz m ] noun rational belief in God: a belief in God based on reason rather than revelation, and involving the view that God has set the universe in motion but does not interfere with how it runs. Deism was especially influential in the 17th and 18th centuries." (Encarta® World English Dictionary [North American Edition] © 2001 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.)
"Many of the leaders of the French and American revolutions followed this belief system, including John Quincy Adams, Ethan Allen, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison Thomas Paine, and George Washington. Deists played a major role in creating the principle of separation of church and state, and the religious freedom clauses of the 1st Amendment of the Constitution." (http://www.religioustolerance.org/deism.htm)
Thomas Paine, by his own admission, was a Deist, along with Ethan Allen. 'll concede that Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin probably were Deists, but there is no way that George Washington and John Adams were. Over and above these specific errors is the general idea that "many" of our founding fathers were. Deists acknowledge a general belief in a god, but not a specific belief in Jesus Christ, or in a God that actively governs in the affairs of men. A deist, for example, would not acknowledge that God participated in the formation of our country. And a deist would certainly not acknowledge a personal relationship with Christ as Savior. Granting that three out of the hundred or so Founding Fathers, that is still a minuscule percentage!
George Washington believed that God directly participated in the formation of the nation and the course of the Revolutionary War. One such example of his belief is contained in a letter he wrote to John Armstrong: "I am sure that never was a people, who had more reason to acknowledge a Divine interposition in their affairs than those of the Unites States…" (p. 655, America's God and Country, William J. Federer )
John Adams, in his Inaugural Address on March 4, 1787 said, "And may that Being who is supreme over all, the Patron of Order, the Fountain of Justice, and the Protector is all ages of the world of virtuous liberty, continue His blessings upon this nation." (p. 10, ibid.)
Neither of these quotes speaks of a mindset where the creator "does not interfere in how it runs." This raises the question as to exactly what describes a Deist. Ethan Allen, most famous for capture of Fort Ticonderoga at the outset of the Revolutionary War, demanded the fort's surrender, "In the Name of the Great Jehovah and the Continental Congress." (p. 26, America's God and Country, William J. Federer )
Perhaps the most telling view was displayed by Ben Franklin, when he stood up during the Constitutional Convention and said, "The longer I live, sir, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men." (p. 248, America's God and Country, William J. Federer )
One grievous error a Deist makes is the lack of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. George Washington's own words contradict the notion that he was a Deist, "…be merciful to me,O God, and pardon me for Jesus Christ sake… Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me; and hast given me assurance of salvation…"( p. 659, America's God and Country, William J. Federer )
There are other examples, and the list is distinguished. John Adams, John Witherspoon and Patrick Henry are perfect examples. Patrick Henry wrote his sister, "O may we meet in heaven, to which the merits of Jesus Christ will carry those who love and serve him." (p. 290, America's God and Country, William J. Federer )
The final evidence is the sheer weight of the number of times our Founding Fathers quoted the Bible. In a review of 15,000 items from the founders, the Bible was found to have directly contributed to 34% of their quotes. 60% came indirectly, so the Bible can be credited in some way for 94%of the quotes of the Founding Fathers. (p. 48-49, America's God and Country, William J. Federer ) All in all, it is fairly clear that our founding fathers were Christians, not Deists. And to further clarify, Deists were not the driving force behind the First Amendment guarantee of Freedom of Religion, Baptists in Virginia were. But that's another story."
http://www.faithofourfathers.org/essays/rewrittinghistory.html
MO
Are you kidding me - you know more than most people that were born here. Maybe you mean as far as the religious end, but as far as history and stuff, you seem to be on top of it all. But anyhow, I'll paste something that I came across - I like what this guy points out as far the discussion on deists. I found it interesting.
And if you go to the site, you will find some stuff on separation of church and state etc - which I am sure you know that this whole separation of church and state - the way it is being interpreted is all wrong....
Our History Books Are Being Rewritten.
By Chris Van Buskirk
"American History is being systematically revised and this process has permeated not only schools, but the mass media as well. In virtually every venue where information is placed before the public, it seems these false views are commonly accepted. Abraham Lincoln stated that the philosophy of the schoolhouse today is the philosophy of government tomorrow. There are many topics in History that are not taught as they actually happened, but as some with an agenda wished they happened. Here are three that are particularly offensive:
First: Our Founding Fathers Were Not Deists.
"de·ism [d ìzz m ] noun rational belief in God: a belief in God based on reason rather than revelation, and involving the view that God has set the universe in motion but does not interfere with how it runs. Deism was especially influential in the 17th and 18th centuries." (Encarta® World English Dictionary [North American Edition] © 2001 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.)
"Many of the leaders of the French and American revolutions followed this belief system, including John Quincy Adams, Ethan Allen, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison Thomas Paine, and George Washington. Deists played a major role in creating the principle of separation of church and state, and the religious freedom clauses of the 1st Amendment of the Constitution." (http://www.religioustolerance.org/deism.htm)
Thomas Paine, by his own admission, was a Deist, along with Ethan Allen. 'll concede that Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin probably were Deists, but there is no way that George Washington and John Adams were. Over and above these specific errors is the general idea that "many" of our founding fathers were. Deists acknowledge a general belief in a god, but not a specific belief in Jesus Christ, or in a God that actively governs in the affairs of men. A deist, for example, would not acknowledge that God participated in the formation of our country. And a deist would certainly not acknowledge a personal relationship with Christ as Savior. Granting that three out of the hundred or so Founding Fathers, that is still a minuscule percentage!
George Washington believed that God directly participated in the formation of the nation and the course of the Revolutionary War. One such example of his belief is contained in a letter he wrote to John Armstrong: "I am sure that never was a people, who had more reason to acknowledge a Divine interposition in their affairs than those of the Unites States…" (p. 655, America's God and Country, William J. Federer )
John Adams, in his Inaugural Address on March 4, 1787 said, "And may that Being who is supreme over all, the Patron of Order, the Fountain of Justice, and the Protector is all ages of the world of virtuous liberty, continue His blessings upon this nation." (p. 10, ibid.)
Neither of these quotes speaks of a mindset where the creator "does not interfere in how it runs." This raises the question as to exactly what describes a Deist. Ethan Allen, most famous for capture of Fort Ticonderoga at the outset of the Revolutionary War, demanded the fort's surrender, "In the Name of the Great Jehovah and the Continental Congress." (p. 26, America's God and Country, William J. Federer )
Perhaps the most telling view was displayed by Ben Franklin, when he stood up during the Constitutional Convention and said, "The longer I live, sir, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men." (p. 248, America's God and Country, William J. Federer )
One grievous error a Deist makes is the lack of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. George Washington's own words contradict the notion that he was a Deist, "…be merciful to me,O God, and pardon me for Jesus Christ sake… Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me; and hast given me assurance of salvation…"( p. 659, America's God and Country, William J. Federer )
There are other examples, and the list is distinguished. John Adams, John Witherspoon and Patrick Henry are perfect examples. Patrick Henry wrote his sister, "O may we meet in heaven, to which the merits of Jesus Christ will carry those who love and serve him." (p. 290, America's God and Country, William J. Federer )
The final evidence is the sheer weight of the number of times our Founding Fathers quoted the Bible. In a review of 15,000 items from the founders, the Bible was found to have directly contributed to 34% of their quotes. 60% came indirectly, so the Bible can be credited in some way for 94%of the quotes of the Founding Fathers. (p. 48-49, America's God and Country, William J. Federer ) All in all, it is fairly clear that our founding fathers were Christians, not Deists. And to further clarify, Deists were not the driving force behind the First Amendment guarantee of Freedom of Religion, Baptists in Virginia were. But that's another story."
http://www.faithofourfathers.org/essays/rewrittinghistory.html
MO
Well thats good I am not as learned as you remember this is the way I learn I am an immigrant ,it is learning for me and I find you folks are very intelligent and interesting, so I mostly listen and digest what I can.I did see her remark but it didnt sink in, so I could use you guys explaining. I appreciate you are busy.... catch you when I can ...
:) I'll try to get back this afternoon....In the meantime, there are some interesting things that were already posted that haven't been touched on. flmagi's post, has some things that would be interesting to discuss. For instance, I personally disagree with the analogy of "Christian Nation/ White Nation." How do you feel about that analogy? That could lead to an interesting discussion if you are up to it. I am having my coffee and have to run otherwise I would comment on it too. And yes, I appreciate that you fight tooth and nail for our Country:)
Seeya later, if not probably tomorrow.
MO
Seeya later, if not probably tomorrow.
MO
Well you tantaliser ...I want you to post it sooner than later, I found all this very intersting I am an immigrant with a limited amount of knowledge but a thirst to learn....dont you love the... you betcha.....oh you yanks are adorable and you wonder why I fight tooth and nail to keep America all it is and all it has been and notbecome a nastier version of Europe .....
Your welcome Margy.
Lots of quotes on record - they're all there - anyone that is looking can find them in a jiffy, yep a jiffy -you betcha.
And tho some were deists, yes indeedy - I don't believe they were deists in the true sense of the word. I found something interesting (found at lightning speed too!:) that I will post sometime over the weekend or next week or whenever. Don't have time right now, wish I did, its interesting - I think it is.
Have a good weekend,
MO
Lots of quotes on record - they're all there - anyone that is looking can find them in a jiffy, yep a jiffy -you betcha.
And tho some were deists, yes indeedy - I don't believe they were deists in the true sense of the word. I found something interesting (found at lightning speed too!:) that I will post sometime over the weekend or next week or whenever. Don't have time right now, wish I did, its interesting - I think it is.
Have a good weekend,
MO
"....The eminent American historian Richard B. Morris, in his 1973 book Seven Who Shaped Our Destiny: The Founding Fathers as Revolutionaries, identified the following seven figures as the key founding fathers: Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, John Jay, James Madison, and Alexander Hamilton.[3]...."
"....Some of the more prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical or vocal about their opposition to organized religion, such as Thomas Jefferson[12][13] (who created the "Jefferson Bible"), and Benjamin Franklin[14]. However, other notable founders, such as Patrick Henry, were strong proponents of traditional religion. Several of the Founding Fathers considered themselves to be deists or held beliefs very similar to that of deists.[15]...."
I provided information that suggests, possibly, a different agenda from the following 5 out of the 7.
Benjamin Franklin
George Washington
John Adams
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
That's 5 out of 7 of the key founders so you really have to take that into consideration when you think..................oh never mind, that's not really relevant here.
Though I didn't spend any time finding my stuff I betcha someone did. You think? I betcha......... yes indeedy.
"....Some of the more prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical or vocal about their opposition to organized religion, such as Thomas Jefferson[12][13] (who created the "Jefferson Bible"), and Benjamin Franklin[14]. However, other notable founders, such as Patrick Henry, were strong proponents of traditional religion. Several of the Founding Fathers considered themselves to be deists or held beliefs very similar to that of deists.[15]...."
I provided information that suggests, possibly, a different agenda from the following 5 out of the 7.
Benjamin Franklin
George Washington
John Adams
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
That's 5 out of 7 of the key founders so you really have to take that into consideration when you think..................oh never mind, that's not really relevant here.
Though I didn't spend any time finding my stuff I betcha someone did. You think? I betcha......... yes indeedy.
and flmagi, teko and barb, Iladvocate ...cant leave you out ..good debate .
Thank you all, I didnt find this depressing its debate and discussion, why is it depressing that what the problem is walking on egg shells ,political correctness, well I am going to read ALL the posts again I found it enlightening ,and interesting thats what this group is for surely ....,My own thank you for your posts also mikesmom ...
Even some ostensible supporters of church/state separation think America is or was founded as a Christian Nation and this belief is very poplar among Christian Nationalists, Christian Supremacists and all opponents of church/state separation. The central problem with this claim is its ambiguity: what does "Christian Nation" mean? Christians who make the claim act like they know what they mean, but that's questionable. It seems more designed to express emotion, not empirical facts.
These are some of the senses in which saying "America is a Christian Nation" may be true, legitimate, and valid:
•Most Americans today are Christian
•Most Americans through history have been Christian
•American culture has been heavily influenced by Christianity
•America is part of "Christendom," the cultural and political region where Christianity dominates
All of these statements may be legitimate observations, depending on the context, but they don't have much relevance to the political, cultural, or legal contexts in which the claim "America is a Christian Nation" is actually made.
Even worse, the above statements would be just as true if we replaced "Christian" with "white" — America is a "Christian" nation in exactly the same way as it is a "white" nation. If people don't want to derive political implications from the latter, why would they try to do so with the former? If the latter is easily recognized as racial bigotry, why isn't the former recognized as religious bigotry?
These appear to be some of the intended meanings which people seem to have in mind:
•America was founded on Christian doctrines, beliefs, traditions
•America was intended to foster, promote, or encourage Christianity
•America has a role to play in Christian eschatology
•America is a nation where Christians are and should be privileged
•America is a nation where Christian beliefs and institutions are and should be privileged
To better understand the attitude and intention here, it might help to recognize that people are saying that America is "Christian" in the same way that a Methodist congregation is "Christian" — it exists for the sake of believing Christians and is supposed to aid people in being Christians. In effect, Christians are the only "true" Americans because America is only "true" when it is Christian.
How do Christians defend their claim that America is a Christian Nation? Some argue that many who came here were Christians fleeing persecution in Europe. Aside from the irony of using past persecution to justify contemporary persecution, this merely confuses the context of how and why the continent was settled with how and why the United States, as a legal entity, was created.
Another argument is that the early colonies had established churches and the governments actively supported Christianity. This is not an effective argument because it was exactly this situation against which many early Americans fought. The First Amendment was specifically designed to prohibit established churches, and at the Constitutional Convention attempts to write in some sort of nominal support for Christianity always failed. In addition, people at the time were distinctly "unchurched." The best estimates indicate that only 10% to 15% of the population actually attended church services.
It is true that Ben Franklin proposed that delegates at the Convention open their sessions with morning prayers, and people who oppose the separation of church and state try to make a lot out of this. According to the records, Franklin suggested that "henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business."
Aside from the fact that such a prayer clearly isn't very Christian in nature, what is usually left unsaid is the fact that his proposal was never accepted. Indeed, delegates didn't even bother voting on it — instead, they voted to adjourn for the day! The proposal was not taken up the next day, and Franklin never bothered to mention it again. Sometimes, unfortunately, religious leaders will deceitfully claim that this proposal was accepted, a distortion which appears to have originated with Senator Willis Robertson, father of Christian Right leader Pat Robertson.
The delegates' refusal to base this nation on Christianity can also be seen in the fact that neither God nor Christianity are mentioned anywhere in the Constitution. Furthermore, as early as 1797 the government specifically said that it is not a Christian Nation. The occasion was a peace and trade agreement between the United States and Muslim leaders in North Africa. The negotiations were conducted under the authority of George Washington, and the final document, known as the Treaty of Tripoli, was approved of by the Senate under the leadership of John Adams, the second president. This treaty states, without equivocation, that the "...Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion...."
Contrary to the claims made by some from the Religious Right, America was not founded as a Christian Nation which was then later undermined by godless liberals and humanists. Just the opposite is the case, actually. The Constitution is a godless document and the government of the United States was set up as a formally secular institution. It has, however, been undermined by well-meaning Christians who have sought to subvert its secular principles and framework for the sake of this or that "good cause," usually in the interest of promoting this or that religious doctrine.
These are some of the senses in which saying "America is a Christian Nation" may be true, legitimate, and valid:
•Most Americans today are Christian
•Most Americans through history have been Christian
•American culture has been heavily influenced by Christianity
•America is part of "Christendom," the cultural and political region where Christianity dominates
All of these statements may be legitimate observations, depending on the context, but they don't have much relevance to the political, cultural, or legal contexts in which the claim "America is a Christian Nation" is actually made.
Even worse, the above statements would be just as true if we replaced "Christian" with "white" — America is a "Christian" nation in exactly the same way as it is a "white" nation. If people don't want to derive political implications from the latter, why would they try to do so with the former? If the latter is easily recognized as racial bigotry, why isn't the former recognized as religious bigotry?
These appear to be some of the intended meanings which people seem to have in mind:
•America was founded on Christian doctrines, beliefs, traditions
•America was intended to foster, promote, or encourage Christianity
•America has a role to play in Christian eschatology
•America is a nation where Christians are and should be privileged
•America is a nation where Christian beliefs and institutions are and should be privileged
To better understand the attitude and intention here, it might help to recognize that people are saying that America is "Christian" in the same way that a Methodist congregation is "Christian" — it exists for the sake of believing Christians and is supposed to aid people in being Christians. In effect, Christians are the only "true" Americans because America is only "true" when it is Christian.
How do Christians defend their claim that America is a Christian Nation? Some argue that many who came here were Christians fleeing persecution in Europe. Aside from the irony of using past persecution to justify contemporary persecution, this merely confuses the context of how and why the continent was settled with how and why the United States, as a legal entity, was created.
Another argument is that the early colonies had established churches and the governments actively supported Christianity. This is not an effective argument because it was exactly this situation against which many early Americans fought. The First Amendment was specifically designed to prohibit established churches, and at the Constitutional Convention attempts to write in some sort of nominal support for Christianity always failed. In addition, people at the time were distinctly "unchurched." The best estimates indicate that only 10% to 15% of the population actually attended church services.
It is true that Ben Franklin proposed that delegates at the Convention open their sessions with morning prayers, and people who oppose the separation of church and state try to make a lot out of this. According to the records, Franklin suggested that "henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business."
Aside from the fact that such a prayer clearly isn't very Christian in nature, what is usually left unsaid is the fact that his proposal was never accepted. Indeed, delegates didn't even bother voting on it — instead, they voted to adjourn for the day! The proposal was not taken up the next day, and Franklin never bothered to mention it again. Sometimes, unfortunately, religious leaders will deceitfully claim that this proposal was accepted, a distortion which appears to have originated with Senator Willis Robertson, father of Christian Right leader Pat Robertson.
The delegates' refusal to base this nation on Christianity can also be seen in the fact that neither God nor Christianity are mentioned anywhere in the Constitution. Furthermore, as early as 1797 the government specifically said that it is not a Christian Nation. The occasion was a peace and trade agreement between the United States and Muslim leaders in North Africa. The negotiations were conducted under the authority of George Washington, and the final document, known as the Treaty of Tripoli, was approved of by the Senate under the leadership of John Adams, the second president. This treaty states, without equivocation, that the "...Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion...."
Contrary to the claims made by some from the Religious Right, America was not founded as a Christian Nation which was then later undermined by godless liberals and humanists. Just the opposite is the case, actually. The Constitution is a godless document and the government of the United States was set up as a formally secular institution. It has, however, been undermined by well-meaning Christians who have sought to subvert its secular principles and framework for the sake of this or that "good cause," usually in the interest of promoting this or that religious doctrine.
Did you read what mikesimon asked?
mike:" If some of the founders did I would appreciate being directed to their writings. I want to know things even if they might go against my personal beliefs."
I do believe that he was serious and that he truly wanted to know. I don't think he would be upset now that I gave him an answer. I think he was sincere and so was I.
I don't understand why you said that - I really don't.
mike:" If some of the founders did I would appreciate being directed to their writings. I want to know things even if they might go against my personal beliefs."
I do believe that he was serious and that he truly wanted to know. I don't think he would be upset now that I gave him an answer. I think he was sincere and so was I.
I don't understand why you said that - I really don't.
I really would believe both series of quotes should not have to contradict each other. The constitution clearly valued religious freedom but it also valued all forms of freedom of speech as well. These debates are turning somewhat antagonistic and its a bit depressing. I am going to leave this forum until people can sort things through..
Have a good weekend everbody!
>God <Bless America,,,,,Land That I love,,Stand beside Her and Guide her....
You must join this user group in order to participate in this discussion.
You are reading content posted in the Current Events . . . Group
A list of national and international resources and hotlines to help connect you to needed health and medical services.
Herpes sores blister, then burst, scab and heal.
Herpes spreads by oral, vaginal and anal sex.
STIs are the most common cause of genital sores.
Condoms are the most effective way to prevent HIV and STDs.
PrEP is used by people with high risk to prevent HIV infection.
