question

Hello sir.  I am a 34 yr old female, married w/ no kids.  I have been diagnosed with borderline and/or bipolar  in the past (which btw, I'm totally not...think i was misdiagnosed imo).  I have been hospitalized for suicidal thoughts & cutting issues in the past couple of years.  I'm not seeing a doctor or therapist now cuz I don't trust them whatsoever because they are so quick to involuntarily hosptialize people in the state of Florida.  Anyway, I have been doing really awesome for a year now.  I am no longer depressed & there is no stress in my life thanks to my spirituality (I'm considered "New Age").  I haven't cut in a year until now.  I cut because I am not depressed, but because I am so spiritual and it helps me stay grounded.  I am operating on a higher vibration than most people so cutting "grounds" me & allows me to be and experience human.  I am more connected with the "other side" and parallel universes (sometimes I see things/people that arent there...these are called "bleed throughs") as I am also a young soul which makes me disconnected with this world, this incarnation, this universe.  I'm having thoughts of suicide because I am just ready to go "home".  I'm kinda like just done here. My husband is leaving town next week, and I want to hurt myself bad...not kill myself so much but I have this urge to match the cut that I made on my other arm a couple of years ago.  A couple of people (on this site) have suggested I ask you about this.  So, what is your opinion or what do you recommend?  Like I said, I am very happy now (not manic), not stressed, nor depressed.  Thank you for your time sir & sorry for troubling you about this.

[Roger Gould, M.D.]

You may not want to get help but you have to get help. I am delighted that your spiritual journey has helped you up until now, but something has happened to you that you do not understand, and cutting yourself only makes it more likely that you will go to the hospital which you may be able to avoid by good psychiatric care right now.......RIGHT NOW  it doesn't matter that you don't want too, you must........

[irisflower76]

...yeah, i'm going to hurt myself for sure...i cut my right arm a few years back in my doctor's office because they upset me...and i feel like i have to match the scar on my other arm...why do i want to do this, i dunno....but i'm going to

[Jaquta]

Please don't do that.  Could you be feeling lonely because your husband is leaving town for a short period?  And that is why the need to cut is so high?

Maybe talking about this is stressful for you as it's quite sensitive material and you are fearful about what people may say concerning your mental health.

Instead of cutting why don't you grab a red marker pen and draw a line up your arm.  Or maybe a different color would better resemble the scar.  You don't need to cut and this can be extremely dangerous.

I think you need to discuss this with your doctor.

[irisflower76]

the only doctor i have is my obgyn...i dont have a regular doctor but she said i could come to her for anything even if it is not obgyn related...but she would involuntarily hospitalize me for sure.    i don't like the mental health centers in my community either so that is not an option.

[zack32]

Wow!!! I'm am sitting here reading what you wrote and I'm in tears. PLEASE GET HELP NOW NOW NOW!!! Call emergency services, whatever you have to do to get help. Cutting and suicidal thoughts are NOT the answer.
My husband was recently diagnosed with schizophrenia and didn't want to go to the hospital either. He is the type who doesn't even take asprin when he has a headache. He now has to take medication everyday, but he does it because he doesn't want to go back to the hospital. He was there for less than a week and he has survived. You can too!!!

[Jaquta]

I guess we have all survived hospital.  Some more so than others.
I also think things are experienced differently by those with different disorders.
I think in some cases there is a total lack of understanding and this can make things infinitely worse for those who are extremely sensitive and vulnerable.

One would expect a doctor without adequate training in the field to over-react and have you committed.

I honestly don't know how to advise.  Theoretically, I should probably be advising you to see your obgyn or tell you to go to the hospital.  I wouldn't care to throw anyone to the lions if systems are that bad though.  On the bright side, maybe your mhs isn't as bad as mine and maybe talking to someone would help.
Maybe by taking the initiative and identifying the problem they will help you in a more supportive role.  I would also recommend looking into psychotherapy.

Maybe you just want others to see how distressed and confused you are.  Talking about your problems will help people to better understand them and may help them guide you in the right direction.

I hope Dr Gould is better able to advise you.  I don't know if I like any psychiatrists, but he's OK.  He's fair and listens and treats people with respect.

Good luck!

[irisflower76]

Thank you for kind words, but i think it is best to not get "professional" help...i feel this is spiritual & a necessary part of my soul evolution. thank you.

[Jaquta]

If you are anything like me you probably think it best to get professional help but have had a heap of negative experiences and don't trust them.
I've been struggling a lot lately too.  I've been actively planning and feel the desire and need to hurt myself too.  The thoughts become overwhelming, I feel stressed, I feel confused, I feel unwell and I feel paranoid.  I have been trying to figure out ways to protect myself, keep myself safe and help me move forward.  It's not an easy thing to do when the people you need to be able to trust and depend on are unreliable and untrustworthy.

For me I've thought of things ranging from talking to my doctor, asking for respite, going to the hospital, thinking about taking medication (which makes me angry because why should I medicate symptoms because the mhs won't provide adequate care?).
I've thought about hurting myself and accessing support that way.  I'm not prepared to do that either.  I've hurt myself enough in the past and I refuse to do this again.  When you hurt yourself that much and become so scared you are not in any hurry to repeat that again.  Sometimes being unwell you lack good judgment and that is the scary part.  Being tired, lacking hope and confidence doesn't help either.
I try and hold onto what people have said and try to hold onto their feelings of hope and optimism.

I've been trying to figure out what has caused me to become so paralyzed, dysfunctional and shut down.  I thought it was one thing but then it was another.

Last night while I was devising ways to steal my mum's xanax (which her doctor had prescribed in excess amounts for a flight) I was reminded of an outburst I had at my doctor's surgery regarding lack of support.  All I've really heard in the past 20 months has been, we're concerned that you've gone from three sessions to none (or one).  We're concerned, we're concerned.  Then I had surgery and radiation for some breast issues.  We're concerned.  Woman who go through that often get ptsd.  Instead of talking about the possibility of getting ptsd do you think maybe we could talk about the underlying emotional issues.  No?  Can we talk about safety issues?  Why won't you engage in a conversation with me about them?  What do I want you to say?  Aren't you the T?  He also asked me to contact him and then never returned any of my six messages.  Just sent out another letter asking me to contact him.
I guess for me I think it must be the loss of therapy and the therapeutic alliance and the loss of hope for the future I feel regarding that.  Plus unresolved issues regarding my breast and treatment.  The on-going lack of support which re-opens old wounds and then the death of my cousin late last year.

How one begins to structure and work through any of that I'm not sure.
Self-medicating with food and medication hasn't worked.  Cutting I'm assuming wouldn't work either.

Anyway, sorry for the novel, my consensus was that good therapy is most advisable.  The same may be true for you too.

You sounded as though there may be an issue with diagnosis.  Perhaps getting a second opinion would help you get an appropriate diagnosis and treatment plan.  Treatment is rarely helpful if it is for a condition you don't have.

If you are going to seek the spiritual route will you please do it with a qualified and experienced individual.  One who can guide you and mentor you but also one who is able to differentiate between mental illness and spiritual ability and be strong enough to tell you which is which.

I think on a practical level that psychotherapy can teach you so much about yourself.  Learning and growing does take you on a journey.  Often you will find that spiritual too.

You said that cutting wasn't the norm for your spiritual culture and community.  If this is so then you should get medical support for that aspect.

There is so much soulful stuff that you are missing out on by denying that there is a problem and not seeking help to bring that material into awareness and create a sense of peace and harmony with it.

Please talk to a health professional and get support.

Why are you so calm and polite?  I don't understand why if you are that centred and grounded that you need to cut.  You've already cut haven't you?

Either way, without putting too much pressure on you, please get help.

[zack32]

I'd like to know who in the world is telling you it is OK to cut and harm yourself as a way of spiritual release? YOU NEED HELP! I can't stress that enough to you!!!!!!!!!!

[irisflower76]

nobody say to cut myself...i am a young soul & having a hard time connecting here in this world.  i do not have a mental illness...my problems are spiritually based because when you are a young soul, you have a hard time connecting with others...i think this is the basis of most "mental illness".  i'm not depressed right now because of it...i just have impulses that im trying to fight. and i have to do it on my own.  i thought about calling the hotline just to talk to someone but i know they will send the police to my house & they will involuntarily take me to the mental health center which i've been too already & had a horrible experience.  i have no other choice but to fight this on my own.  thank you for your concern though

[Jaquta]

I read in another post by the doctor that it is our responsibility to reach out (and to make that connection).

If that were the basis for mental illness one could argue that you do have a mental illness and that you're just choosing to look at it in a different context, with different definitions and meanings.  Or the doctor is.  But his version is currently the most socially acceptable one.  Although it doesn't feel fair we have to work with them in their system.
I don't experience this in a spiritual way as you do.  My experience is more as an injustice and re-victimization.  The system works for a lot of people but there are also some that are harmed and made worse by it.

What do you think it is that encourages people to react to you (and me) in that way?

I once asked a similar question of the doctor here.  He said that because we had a bad experience once it doesn't mean we will again.

This frustrates me and leaves me wanting to ask questions of the doctor here.  I'm not even sure how to formulate those questions, but how are we suppose to reach out to those very same people who have hurt us so much in the past, especially when we are unwell.
Maybe the doctor would understand the question/s.
Also, are we just individually feeling bad or are we subconsciously feeding off others problems.  I feel it's becoming a problem.  Probably more because we don't trust our treatment providers and feel a degree of understanding and empathy from other members here.
How do we get around this especially when feeling anxious or paranoid?

[irisflower76]

i know for me, it is not just 1 bad experience...try 5 or more.  that's pretty frickin' bad.  i had one T involuntarily hospitalize me after one email...i was searching for a T & emailed him, the next thing i know i was hauled off the the mental health center.  i didn't even have one session with that guy.  i have to say it is nice to know that there is someone else who understands.  i dont feel alone & that in itself is comforting.

[irisflower76]

im getting worse but know that even if i seek "professional" help, they just wont understand.  the more i reach out, the more i get burned.  the only option is to seek consult with a spiritual counselor...i just emailed her tonight

[Jaquta]

My negative experiences with the mhs would easily exceed five too.  Bad luck or bad management?

I find it really hard relating to some people as they don't really understand where I'm coming from.  I think unless you get caught up in that negative cycle and with all the egos and power struggles and being without a voice you can't understand -not really.
It's almost like we become victims of our own pathology (sorry, life symptoms) too and that doesn't help our situation.  Sad that health professionals have to add to the struggle.  Like it isn't desperate and scary enough as it is.

For me these are old, unresolved wounds and they open up when I'm perhaps not doing so well or when something from my past is triggered.

I thought maybe the problem was me.  I mean I've been telling people that they should get help themselves but maybe in a round about way I was asking to be heard and nurtured (fixed) myself.  I don't know.  I don't understand.  Sometimes I think I do but then I'm not so sure.

I was lucky to have had therapy with one T who understood.  But then she said that her experiences as a staff member paralleled and equalled those of my own, hence she felt very empathetic towards me.  Ours is a messed up system.  Made up of messed up individuals??

As a patient I'm left confused by the system.  I was always told to access the service when I had safety concerns.  When I did and did access the service they told me there was nothing they could do to help (along with the other stuff -telling me to take out the rubbish, half-smile, etc).  That feels very rejecting when you feel very, very bad.
A previous T wrote something the other day and that was how another T had asked me to e-mail her and then asked me via e-mail not to e-mail her.  ??  There seem to be so many mixed messages.  I guess on this forum most people are clear but then none of what people write seems to fit with my experience of the health care system.  It's not that black and white.

I don't even know.  At times you have these instincts to protect yourself and then you try to but ... (in terms of ability to help me my mhs would probably only rate a 1/10).
It seems like a greater risk to talk to these people and involve them than not.

You shouldn't listen to anything I have to say, other than the bit about getting help.
The advice should be simple and easy to give but it's not.

What do we need to do in order to be able to access that help?
I know for me that is harder because my moods are inconsistent.

[irisflower76]

what i have found is that staff are completely desensitized to patients...often not seeing them as individuals with different needs...staff tend to lump everyone as "mentally ill fruitcakes" and treat them as sub-human.  also, my mental health center does not focus on counseling but rather medicating...i just don't believe in poisoning my body with psychotropics (let's face it, they don't know the long term effects of over half the stuff they prescribe).  i was at my local grocery store about a year ago, and saw a psychiatrist from my mental health center roaming the parking lot for 20 minutes trying to figure out where he had parked his car...yeah, like i want that guy treating me...um, not so much.  i am a very intelligent woman & i dont follow anything blindly, especially when it comes to taking psychotropics...psychiatrists don't like that too much so then they punish me for not taking their poison & hold me longer than the required 72hrs in their god forsaken crisis unit.  like you said, it is in our protective nature to seek out help when we feel emotionally out of balance, but then you have to bring yourself back to earth and say, "do i really want to subject myself to their b.s.?"

[irisflower76]

...oh, btw...last time i was involuntarily hospitalized...i was so pissed off about the "system" that i emailed NAMI and told them that their organization sucked & was a bunch of balogna & that i should kill myself to prove a point & start a revolution.  they sent cops to my house & away I went.

[MMahon]

It's always better to get help voluntarily then involuntarily.  
You speak of spirituality...do you have a 'spiritual advisor' that is competent and you trust?
If so can you speak with this person about what your saying here and take their advice?
The longer you wait the more likely a long, involuntary commitment awaits you.
Good luck.

[Jaquta]

Gee, sorry I shouldn't laugh.  Everybody takes everything so literally sometimes without understanding that the comments are made out of frustration, etc.
Probably when the balance has been tipped when you think nobody is listening to you anyway and then what do you know, once again staff are perpetuating symptoms.

When I was first sectioned I probably did something similar.  About half way through my admission (I was kept for four weeks -must have seemed like a huge enigma to them) I was so stressed that I thought I would almost certainly have a heart attack but they refused to allow me to go on leave.  Anyway, they made me stay up till 9 pm for evening meds (when I ready to sleep at 4 pm) and I was so angry and frustrated that I made an off hand, under the breath comment about it giving me time to make plans, etc.  Needless to say they were not impressed and I refused to wait up to take meds (they shouldn't give you stuff that makes you tired, unless that was just the depression, and then make you stay up).  So they cancelled all my leave, were in my face 24/7 and threatened to restrain me if I didn't take oral meds.  People can be so stupid.
People are so vulnerable when they're in hospital and then to assume that you are able to de-stress like them.  It is unfair to allow no latitude for compounded stress.

I often felt that way too.  That I would have to kill myself in order for others to stop, listen and take notice.  Nobody cares/ cared.

I had all my leave revoked and was re-admitted after another misunderstanding for another two weeks.
They said they wanted to give me a course of ect.  I said no.  I said if they did that I would kill myself.  Well obviously that was more grounds for why they should give it.
Having had some OK therapy since then I can see some of the dynamics but you would think that maybe, just maybe, they would have a tiny bit of insight into the situation.

I've been a total mess since hospital.

In a number of instances the staff are the ones who need the treatment.

I found it somewhat ironic that they would say that I was underweight and not eating when they would sit and stuff themselves with all the patients meals and desserts.

They also would make mistakes but deny them and make us out to be the basket cases only to turn around later and apologize.  I bet that hurt.  It's so undermining when you're beginning to challenge yourself and to have that sort of thing happen.
It would be nice if everybody didn't just assume that those labelled as disordered were at fault.

Here too, they are looking at just employing psychiatrists (to prescribe the meds) and psych nurses (to monitor mental state and side-effects).  In other areas people are talking about setting time limits for therapy.  Most are very limited.

Many work with 'disabled or debilitated' people in order to avoid being reminded of their own deficits.
I use to wonder why the psych registrar who was lecturing me about self-harm wasn't locked up.  Surely being a chain smoker his risk was higher than mine.

I saw the psychiatrist I was seeing once in town.  I was very sorely tempted to run the shopping trolley over the back of his heels.  I showed some restraint though and didn't.

Many psychiatrists and staff do take things incredibly personally.
For me my unwillingness to take meds, etc was seen by one doctor (an Indian male) as a challenge to him personally.  He was the one threatening me with ect and challenging the family court judge.  He should just get over himself.
My GP is trying to set up a review for me but I told him I won't see any black males.  It sounds incredibly racial but ... I don't want to go through that again -ever.

The reality is that we don't, do we?  I don't know how we would go about learning to trust people and the system again.  I'm in crisis again at the moment, whatever that means, and my GP asked me if I would go back and talk to my old T.  I said no.  I have no confidence in them or their ability and I don't see it serving any positive purpose.  I don't see myself being able to work with any of them again.  Even with external supervision.  If my life were in the balance I doubt I would call these people.  I have said I wouldn't.

All this just kind of tears you apart though.  You sometimes know what you need to do but you just can't bring yourself to do it.

People here have died because health professionals haven't taken them seriously or haven't understood the nature of the disorder.
One that comes to mind is a young woman who repeatedly asked the service for support then set herself on fire.  What do you do?  This is the sort of thing that happens when you become so angry and frustrated at the lack of understanding and support.

[Jaquta]

Is there really a difference?

You may not want to but you have too.
It doesn't matter that you don't want too, you must ...

What does that mean anyway?

[irisflower76]

Yeah, I have no clue of what Dr. Gould was trying to say to me...he just sounded like the rest of the flakes I've dealt with...whatever.  Ironically, discussing the flaws of the mental health system as well as our personal negative experiences has actually de-escalated my need to cut (though i broke down yesterday & did it).  I feel a lot better actually.  Why?  Because I think & visualize about me reaching out for help to these people & forsee the same negative outcome that i experienced in the past:  I call for help (i.e. a hotline), they don't trust my safety so they send police to my house, the police don't care what i have to say & haul me to the david lawrence center, then i have to fill out paperwork saying that i agree to services (even though i dont cuz i was brought against my will), then i am evaluated by a 20 yr old kid trying to make it thru psych school, then i see the moronic psychiatrist who twists my words & has me admitted onto the unit.  They strip me of my clothes & make me wear scrubs which then takes away my dignity.  Each day on the unit, you wait for your "15 minutes of fame" with the pdoc, hoping you can convince him to let you go home...but they don't let you go home until you try meds.  I start getting restless, and demand they call my husband to get me out of there.  My husband agrees with us, Jacquta, and doesn't want me in those places...so he usually can persuade them to release me.  Thank God for him bailing me out so many times.  Once the cops came to my apartment while my hubby was at work.  I told them not to take me away & i had them call my husband for him to back me up on this.  My hubby begged & pleaded with the cop for them not to take me.  The cop lied to my husband & said he wouldnt, got off the phone with him, and hauled me away.  You cant trust these people...which ultimately deters me from getting help.  It is so sad.  My husband agrees.  That is why I seek a spiritual counselor.  I thought about seeing maybe a life coach too...often i feel lost on my path & maybe a life coach could help me live up to my potential.  So, i do have alternatives.

[irisflower76]

once i decided to try meds (because i thought it would help me go home quicker from the crisis unit just knowing that i had no intention of continuing meds after my release), so they put me on Abilify.  Three hours after taking the first pill, i passed out.  It took the nurse 10 minutes to come out and help me.  I was hauled off in the EMS to a real hospital and the doctor told me my body had a bad reaction so they stuck me with IVs and flushed the posionus Abilify out of my system.  Nobody called my husband during this crisis...he found out about my collapse when he stopped in for visiting hours & i wasnt there...he was soooo livid!  the next day, the pdoc asked why i stopped taking the medication...i'm like, DUDE ! didn't they tell you i had a reaction?  he called the nurse & she told him i passed out because i wasn't eating enough.  And i'm supposed to trust these a-holes? c'mon. f them.  i dont want to go back there.  that place is awful.  the pdocs got their degree from a vending machine i swear.  one pdoc is haitian (and like you, not to be racisit, just doesnt work for me).  another pdoc is indian...no thanks.  the other pdoc is an old fart who should be retired (this is the one who took 20 minutes to find his car in the parking lot).  the behavioral techs are all in their 20s and make fun of the severely ill patients.  why should i subject myself to this? why?  for my safety?  they make it worse.  sorry, venting...

You said you were in crisis.  Try to hang in there ok.

[zack32]

I guess Everyone is just trying to figure out how you think. You are very confused as to weather you are mentally or spiritually disturbed.
I am the same age as you and a very spiritual person. I have never cut or even wanted to cut myself or kill myself for that matter in the name of spiritual release. If anything it is my spirituality that keeps me sane.
Cops hauled you off at your comment about killing yourself because it is there job to protect you. You may feel that you don't need the help, trust me my husband felt the same way. He was scared that he would never come home again, he hated having to go to the hospital. He takes his meds only because he doesn't want to go back there again.
Gr.Gould was right, you might not want to get help, but you NEED to weather you like it or not. No one can rightly say I am perfectly sane, but I just want to cut myself. You need to understand that you do have more than a spiritual problem. It isn't easy to be humble and admit it but it is extremely important to your health.
I have a friend who is about 15 yrs. older than us. She was diagnosed with schizophrenia in her early 20. She still to this day believes she doesn't need to take her medication. She ends up in the mental hospital about every 6 months or so, maybe if more. If we can't admit to ourselves when there is a problem, it doesn't make the problem go away. Kind of like a cancer patient saying I don't have cancer. It doesn't make it  go away or make them feel any better. It just kills them. You are in the same frame of mind. " What I don't know won't kill me" that is very dangerous because you have repeatedly talked about killing yourself.
Now I know what I say probably won't even make a difference to you, but I urge you to think about it seriously. Meditate on it! Sound it down into your heart! As a spiritual person you ought to know what I mean. Use God's word to "divide between bone and Marrow, because it is sharper than any two edged sword." In other words if you aren't going to get help from the Dr. you really need to read God's word daily and allow it to show you the right path. If you have any questions on the scriptures, let me know and I would be very happy to help you. I am a teacher of the Scriptures.

[irisflower76]

why should i trust that mental health center?   no way.

[irisflower76]

about 3 years ago i was pretty bad and my doctor set up an appt to see a psychiatrist. i went to the appt. and even set up for a follow up.  they called me back after a week and told me i wasnt a good candidate for treatment (no explanation).  they refer me to the mental health center.  the doctor couldnt even call me back to tell me this...he made his secretary tell me.  cant say i havent tried.  

[inneedofhelp82]

There isn't really alot i can say to help because you are so clearly against the mental health service, in some ways i agree, my experience of them hasn't always been good either. They seem to reach a point where they don't know what to do espically in times of suicidal crisis, there answer is to lock us up or as i have found in my case they do nothing and leave me to cope with the feelings myself.
I found on my question to Dr Gould that his answer confirmed how everyone else makes me feel, that my situation is too complicated for me to be helped. I even feel that my therapist is just going through the motions of therapy, he doesn't really care either. I often think too about killing myself to prove a point but really my family would suffer and if my therapist doesn't care when i am alive me being dead won't bother him either, so  i think why kill myself because of him.
You are lucky your husband is supportive at least he can keep you out of hospital, my partner threatnened to put me in hospital one time during an argument he done it because he knows i am afraid of the hospital.
Have you ever had any good experience with mental health people at all?
I did have a good relationship with my therapist until lately but he seems different now, i think he will try and get rid of me so its hard for me to trust him with our up coming therapy.
Can i say if you don't receive any help from them, can you cope alone? Will you be able to keep yourself alive? I know the system can be really bad at times but they are trying to keep you alive.
I get really suicidal at times so reading your views on the mental health system is quite a big trigger for me, i know everyone has had different experiences but i still try to hang on to the good, i need to believe that they can help me otherwise my life will not be worth living.
I hope you find some peace in your life.

[Jaquta]

Basically, I think what the doctor said was, GO GET HELP!!  That's in layman's terms just so there is no confusion or misunderstanding.

I don't think getting help is the problem.  I also don't think we're (may as well include myself here) that uninsightful that we don't accept we have a problem.

The problem is not about accessing support but about accessing appropriate support.
Despite what we say we know we're unwell -we're not stupid.

Maybe the doctor lied.  Maybe he gave you IV nutrition?  Not a bad way to get energy and electrolytes into a starving person.  Not very ethical either though.
Communication often seems poor between departments and between doctors and patients.  There are many psych patients who don't care about treatment but there are some that do.  I personally like to be kept informed (and involved where possible) of treatment decisions.  I don't like being treated like a thing or a number.  Though most people being aware of who you are due to their perception of you being difficult or different isn't very helpful either.

I had a bad reaction to some meds I had been given too and collapsed in the door to my room.  While I was struggling to breathe this nurse was doing some spiritual energy field thing on me.  It was some relief when a real doctor came running.

I think talking helps us to feel validated.  I was able to work through some of my negative feelings with a T which was extremely helpful.  Before that the best I could do was try and avoid the problem or visualize the staff as little babies with rattles and in diapers in some very public place or humiliating situation.

I'm sorry you cut.  You really should have spoken to someone to have avoided that.  That was where the ...you must get help bit came in.

I sometimes feel better about not actively asking for help because I know how stressful and potentially harmful that is.
Probably if I had to make a decision either way at the moment I would choose to run away.  Also not very constructive or helpful.

People are over-cautious with you.  I have experienced that too.  Now I am at the other end of the spectrum where I could be in the process of hurting myself and nobody would care or understand or do anything.
It's funny how you have to talk to staff like babies.  I  f e e l  ...  Not sure what this means to me.  I was just trying to highlight the need for clear communication.  Maybe they treat us like children so we act like them or we behave like children so they treat us like children.  I don't know.  Probably both.  Either way it's not very empowering.

I have actually found those young doctors the best.  Mainly because they haven't adopted all the negative values that the older more cynical ones have.
I have found the old doctors OK too.  After my experiences in hospital I was seen by the doctor from the 65+ service.  That was ?three times my age but hey as long as I didn't have to see any of the doctors I had been treated by.  It worked for me.

The only time I befriended the doctor was when I thought he could discharge me.  Apparently not.  He was the out-patient consultant not the in-patient one.

Some hospitals and staff members are OK.  I'm not against appropriate treatment.

I think our problem is that we feel too threatened and we run or we avoid dealing with the real problem.  It ends up hurting us and adds to our feelings of frustration.  Sometimes if we just waited and worked through stuff we would be better off.  Overall I think we make some pretty poor decisions.  Understandable but poor.

Venting can be good.

I don't know what's going on with me.  My day starts off pretty average but then by evening I have crashed and things are pretty bad.  I resolve to get some support but wake up next day feeling OK.  Then the cycle continues.

I think although I'm feeling stuck and trudging through mud all the time I think I may be able to get myself out of this mess myself (although personally when things are this bad I don't see how) and then I feel overwhelmed by the fact that if I move on then things were never that bad in the first place.  Certainly nobody ever validates how bad things are for me.  A lot is going on and it changes quite quickly.  ??

Police often add to the problem.  Many cease to treat people with psych issues with any degree of respect.  I guess they just get fed up with all the stuff that they have to deal with.

Denying the significance of cancer has helped me.  Denying there is a problem has made me feel better.  Avoiding all those oncology and surgical appointments and tests has made me feel marginally better.  In the short-term it has given me back a sense of control.
It doesn't make it go away but it gives you choice.

The choice is not to enter a mh system or service that will make the problem worse.    Really, it isn't even a choice.

People have treated you poorly.
I think sometimes it's because we're anxious, etc and they try to avoid making us worse by avoiding asking questions, etc and clarifying.

Sorry for the novels.
My plan at this stage is to talk to my doctor next week.  I hope you find the strength and courage to talk to your doctor.  Have a conversation with them, be honest with them, listen to them, ...

[Jaquta]

** Important Note **

Just because I and others have issues with accessing and accepting support from our health providers that does not mean that others should not follow up with their health care providers.  Because we have experienced a degree of adversity within our systems that does not mean that others aren't functional and aren't able to offer skilled, qualified and experienced support.  Most services are.  Not all, but most.

My personal thoughts and feelings should in no way affect anyone's willingness to access help.  Help is available and people should feel hopeful that they can change.

If people do feel depressed, anxious, paranoid, or suicidal, etc then they should seek professional help.  This is the right and appropriate thing to do.

[zack32]

Everyone has a problem with talking to the Dr. I think you all need to remember that they are only human. They are not perfect in anyway and sometimes don't have all the answers. Don't blame them for not being able to help you if you are not willing to help yourself.
Some of you mentioned that the Dr. say your untreatable. Well, yeah! if you are not willing to take medication there is no help. If you have a cemical imbalance in your brain causing the mental illness than you need something to offset that balance. My brother has ADHD. Without the meds he was completely out of control, on them he was a totally different person.

[irisflower76]

i will kill myself before i take meds...bottom line...if that is all there is for me to get "help", then see ya on the other side.

[irisflower76]

im just a reject of the system, so im dead anyway...im way triggered right now & gonna cut myself...dont care anymore...this is my last post

[Jaquta]

irisflower76.  STOP!!  I don't think any of this is helpful.

I too felt invalidated by Zack32's comments.

To me it sounds like something my mother would say.  Everyone has or everyone feels.  This isn't about everyone it is about you or me or whoever.  To try and normalize something that feels anything but normal can feel invalidating.  Also, if everyone feels that way what is it about me that hurts so much and can't change.  The comment goes nowhere near touching on the difficulties that someone like you or me faces.

We aren't expecting doctors to be perfect.  We know that people are fallible.

I don't think Zack has a good grasp on the dynamics of what is going on.  On a superficial level it sounds pretty basic, you're unwell so you should, or need to, access support.
On a deeper level it feels like someone is blaming you or re-victimizing you.
I have this saying that has gotten quite old but it is a bit like talking about abuse with an abuser.  Would people really endorse or even encourage you to do that?
Daddy raped me so I have to go to him for support.  It's the same with the mhs.  They fail you on so many different levels and then there is this expectation that you should turn to them again.  When is enough ever enough?

So why isn't all of society medicated?
Some people are so disturbed, me included, that they can't rationalize the use of medication.  There are psychological issues at work preventing compliance with that.  It's a complex issue and not one the use of force resolves.

Proper therapy is what is needed not subjecting oneself to medications that have limited efficacy in certain patient populations.

I'm glad your brother benefited from medication.

Medication is one tool.  It is not the only one.  It is not that black and white.

This is not about you, it is about the system.  Systems are also fallible.

It can be hard listening to comments that you feel are unfounded in your truth.
The comments actually made me feel a little angry too.

There is help available, you need to trust in that.  Cutting is not the answer and it may hurt people believing that it was their fault.  Don't punish them for having an opinion that is different to your own.

I feel there is a lack of containment around this issue.  I didn't even realize how uncontained I felt myself.

How long is your husband away for?

[irisflower76]

Ok, ok...wasn't feeling good...so i called the suicide hotline today...talked to the counselor about how i was feeling & things we are discussing here...and guess what??  HE TOTALLY AGREES THAT THE MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM IS COMPLETELY FLAWED (IN FLORIDA)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  in fact, he told me he was going to move to another state for his career because, he too, can't stand the poor quality of care here...he is going to move back to his home state where he knows the system does work there.  he too, is fed up & feels sorry for people who have tried to reach out in Florida.  he urged me to stay away from the system as well...to seek a spiritual counselor or even move to another state cuz these people in the mhs cant help me.  WOW!!!  in fact, he told me i wasnt the only caller who complained about the mental health system.  that's gotta tell ya something here kids.

Like Jaquta mentioned, why reach out for help to the mental health system (daddy) when they continue to abuse you?  Zack, dont blame me for being noncompliant by not taking meds just cuz it worked for your loved ones dont mean it is gonna work for us...they have schizophrenia & ADHD where, yes, meds indeed are necessary & work for those illnesses; however, i am borderline (supposedly), which is extremely difficult to treat cuz most BPDs dont respond to medication.  Look up BPD Zack...you will find that most therapists run away from people like me...we are considered the ba$tard red headed stepchildren according to the system...the disorder is so complex...borderlines are the ones most raped by the system...just google it & read the horror stories...though i feel Jaquta & me have expressed enough horror stories here just in this forum.

Zack32, hon, i appreciate your caring.  sorry i overreacted.  but your comments are exactly what staff members, therapists, and pdocs throw at borderlines when we are having our moments.  just know that i am coping better RIGHT NOW...Well, i went to work today.  then went shopping.  now im listening to music (old school NWA)...my neighbor friend called & asked me out to dinner &  the movies with his family.  i just hope afterwards i can stay safe.  hubby coming home tomorrow night.  i just hope i can stay safe.

[inneedofhelp82]

Can i say, that this is really getting out of control, you say you don't need help but because someone else has an opinion you want to cut yourself. Also can i say the word rape is not a word to be used lightly, that word can be a pretty big trigger in itself, for me anyway and i am sure many other people.
If you are doing as well as you say why do you need to cut? There are others who don't function at all.

[Jaquta]

It's a promising start being able to talk to someone, and feel safe, from a hotline.  Well done!!
I bet that felt very validating and worthwhile.  It's nice to have someone who will listen to you and who can relate.

I'm still not sure people really understand and think that we are just victims of our own making.  Which is crazy, because we know part of that is true.

I'm glad that you've had a productive day and have been included in plans for this evening.  It sounds like it should be good.

Trust that you can and ring the hotline again if you need to.  Remember these are only short-term solutions though and that you need to look for better solutions long-term.
Would you and your husband consider relocating in order for you to access care?

I think it has been a better day for most people.  I used that word and I'm sorry if it was triggering.  I feel it was useful to describe the intensity of how I feel and what people expect of us when saying, ... just get help from these people.  No one understands or can comprehend that.  I find it a useful comparison.

[irisflower76]

i wish everyone the best of luck.  i will no longer use this website...i dont feel that i should have to censor what i say & i dont care if it offends or triggers other people, cuz this is a free country & i can say what i want.  you dont like the content,then stop reading.   im tired of other people's comments on here (excluding Jaquta--you have been helpful).  i mean it this time...peace out...and i wish you happiness Jaquta.

[Jaquta]

You don't have to go and you don't have to censor what you say (as long as it is not obscene, etc, etc).  You should see some of the things I have posted (or maybe you shouldn't -some things have been pretty bad).
I think it's unavoidable that at times people do get triggered or have a reaction to others comments.  I know I sometimes struggle or feel uncomfortable with what people write.  That doesn't mean that they should stop posting about them though.
I will sometimes even disagree with comments the doctor makes.  While I can try and understand his perspective, a little difficult in this medium where he responds once, I still have the right to my thoughts, feelings and opinions.  Because we have differences of opinion, etc that does not mean that we should not talk about them or the subject.

Many people who use these forums have personal experience of mental illness, etc and while that can make us resilient it can also leave us feeling vulnerable.

I can empathize with people who struggle with some issues (for me those are labels and hospital and support and a whole host of other things) bu that shouldn't preclude others from discussing them and understanding them and trying to get closure on them.

I'm one of those people who despite warnings in subject headings, etc just have to read the content.  It can be pretty bad and you would think that I would learn, but no.
I guess that's a bit like when driving past an accident.  How many people don't look?

I was wondering if it was my fault that there had been problems here.  I have been accused of taking all my toys and playing in someone elses sandpit before.  Probably partly because I wasn't free to express my thoughts and feelings.  That was a bit like Zack's comment about medication I think.  Like you have to do what someone wants you to do despite having thoughts and feelings of your own and being told to quash those.  Which can be pretty frustrating and hurtful when you're trying to figure out who you are and what you want.
I suggested people post here if they had questions.  I feel that I've done something although I only ever wanted people to get the best advice and to be pointed in the most appropriate direction.

Maybe the problem is that I tried to support people when I could barely support myself.  Did I need others around me to make me feel more well?

I feel stressed.  I feel I have let others down when they have needed support the most.  We all know that that should come from health professionals but ...  

[zack32]

Listen! I was totally NOT trying to offend anyone especially you irisflower. I truly am a concerned citizen for you and anyone who wishes to end their life. I was simply trying to reach out to you. Life is the most precious thing that we poses. If you feel like nothing now, you really will be nothing if you kill yourself. So maybe try thinking of it in that light. Is there someway you can make a difference. EX: Are you creative? Can you teach yourself a craft such as crocheting or knitting and make blankets for babies or homeless people, cancer patients? Look at them and know that life could be so much worse than what you have. I don't know I'm just throwing some ideas out. The person who receives the gift will be so happy that it will rub off on you and help you greatly with depression. " There is more happiness in giving than there is in receiving".
Another something you can go after: Get to know your creator, the truth about him. " Draw close to God and he will draw close to you" " and he will open his hand and satisfy your every desire" Get to know that he is a "God of love" and would never ever want to see you murder yourself.
I know you said you where not going to comment anymore but I do hope you read this.

BTW you said you are where Borderline BPD. My husband is borderline Schizo. The Dr. even thought he might not be schizo.and took him off his meds. Within 6 weeks he was back in the hospital with another episode. He too wanted to kill himself when he was in that state of mind. Thankfully the because he said that, the ambulance drivers had to take him to the hospital, by law. It was the worst being in that hospital,  lumped together with all the other patient's, locked up like a prison, he couldn't see be but for 2 hours a day sitting the hallway. We couldn't even hold hands. He was not aloud to see the kids, which would have made him get better faster, because he loves them more than anything. So when you say the system is broken down and doesn't work good, I completely understand. My husband is now almost a year from that experience and is on a very low dose of medication. For which we can both be very thankful. Now I'm not telling you that you have to take medication. What I'm saying is that our knowledge of the one and only true God and his promise for the very near future that all sickness and death will be done away with here on Earth, has helped us through this very emotional and upsetting ordeal. You too can have this same hope and purpose without looking very hard. If you would like to know where to find this hope, just let me know and I will be more than happy to give you spiritual advice.
BUT PLEASE WHATEVER YOU DO JUST P.U.S.H.
Pray Until Something Happens.
DO NOT TAKE YOUR LIFE< EMBRACE IT!!!!!!

[inneedofhelp82]

Hey do you know what its like to be raped, really raped repeatedly, i do and if the word triggers me thats my right to have that you don't have the right to say i can't read what i want, anyway keep the forum, i won't need it soon as soon as therapy starts i don't plan on being anywhere not in this life anyway.

[Jaquta]

I thought the disaster was over.  I shouldn't add to it but I don't like dissension.

Zack.  irisflower isn't going to kill herself.  Although I shouldn't say that or it may push her in that direction.  What she has been asking for more than anything is for support and for understanding.  Many people need to feel heard before they will allow themselves to be helped.  Is 'borderline' really some foreign language that nobody understands?

What I came to learn was that suicidal thoughts, gestures, attempts, etc aren't always about ending life.  More than anything they are cries for help.  Often it is a way to communicate extreme distress.

The nothing already feels like that nothing.  Maybe even that nothing is more than this nothing.

People know that your words were and are of support and encouragement and hope.  When people are unwell they can be more sensitive to comments and lash out.
Despite knowing that you care and come with good intentions, I too, have struggled with my own reactions to some of your comments.  I am unsure why, after reading some of your comments, I feel as though I have been rubbed up the wrong way.  It's interesting and it gives me material to work with.  What I learn can tell me a lot about myself and perhaps positively affect how I choose to relate to people in the future.
I'm not attacking you.  I like that you are who you are.  Kind, caring, compassionate, ...

Is praying any different to hoping because many of us wish that things were different.
I often felt that praying was about asking questions and so once asked the mind went about ways to problem-solve the situation.

inneedofhelp.  Many know what it feels like to be abused, betrayed and violated.  You have every right to feel angry that that happened to you.  And not just that, other events too.  The police should also have been more supportive.

Everybody has a right to their own thoughts and feelings.  People can read whatever they choose too but then they need to accept the consequences.
I'm not sure writing and reading about it was such a bad thing if it gets you to talk about it.  You definitely need to follow this up with your T though.
I'm sorry you are feeling this bad.  It can't be helpful feeling this bad going into a week of intensive therapy and feeling somewhat disconnected from your T and feeling triggered or attacked by me or others.

What are you talking about?  You are going to therapy, right?  What about your kids, you know they need you.  You should ring somebody today and let them know how bad and stressed you feel.

[zack32]

I guess I just feel that if something where to happen to any of you, I would feel blood guilty. Like I had some kind of power to try to help you to see the brighter side of things and I didn't do anything about it. I reach out because I care and I am TRULY AND HONESTLY SORRY that I have offended any of you. It was not what I set out to do. I wish all of you the best and a happy future. I guess all we can do is just survive sometimes. That in it self is a big accomplishment when you feel you don't want to go on anymore.
I'm a teacher of the Bible so if any of you need spiritual understanding, I will be more than happy to help, for free.

[Jaquta]

We aren't your responsibility though.  We need to take responsibility for ourselves.  I read some of that in a clinical text book.  At the time I thought it was quite harsh, that there was someone in need reaching out for help and they were told that they had to manage everything themself and that the therapist wasn't responsible for any consequence.
I guess it's right though.  Within reason.

I know what you mean.  I know that inneedofhelp was feeling really low and was stressed and I thought that might have been the breaking point for her.  I was very worried especially based on previous events.  I think she's in respite now though and undergoing a week of intensive therapy.
I was concerned but then I felt that she also needed to take care of herself.  I know how desperately hard that can be at times, especially when the struggle seems constant and feels overwhelming.  But it's something she needs to do for herself.  Something we all need to do for ourselves.

I felt guilty because one of the guys at school shot himself.  He was in our house but my brothers dorm.
I guess what hurt me the most was when people came to class and said that he had told them he was going to do it.  I felt responsible because I felt that if I hadn't of been such a loner or had of been able to interact more I could have made a difference.
I doubt I would have but I still felt like it was my fault.  Crazy really.

We all say things Zack that others may misinterpret, etc.  It probably wasn't even anything you said.  I personally don't understand my reaction to you.  I'm owning this as my issue, not yours.  Certainly nothing you have said warrants this reaction.
You're polite, you're sensitive, you're grounded.  I'm not even sure why I feel like I am attacking you when more than anything I feel we share common goals and concerns.  I'm not sure why things feel divided to me when I feel they should feel whole.  Maybe you just remind me of people in my own life and that triggers off all those old wounds.

I was listening to my mindfulness meditation cd the other day, or partially listening.
Jon Kabat-Zinn said that we need to give our full attention to it but for some that may only be 80 or 90%.  We just have to invest whatever we are able to at the time to improve our health and well-being.

Maybe a prayer for our health and happiness would be nice.

Take care Zack.
Best wishes J

[zack32]

I guess it was partially my fault. I was trying to reach out to irisflower. I should have put that in the to box but had not realized that there was another commenter there, inneedofhelp.I know irisflower said she wasn't going to be on here anymore, but I just thought in the off chance she did, I wanted to reach out to her. She seemed to be in denial. I know she isn't my responsibility, but I have always been the take care off others type. I should have been a nurse, but can't stand the sight of blood. Hehehe!.I care for people so much that I can't even stand it when they get a cut and need a bandaid. My husband always has to take care of the kid's cuts and scrapes.
Thank-you for your kind words and I hope you the best as well. You seem to be a very knowledgeable person and are able to help many. Keep up the good work.

[Jaquta]

I don't think inneedofhelp had problems with anything that you had written, just me and irisflower.  I think she cut me some slack because she knows a little of my situation.  Mainly I think it was my comments about an unsupportive system and the 'r' word.
I think she's crashed a bit and I didn't expect my thoughts and feelings to be interpreted as meaning that there was no hope for anybody ever.  That wasn't what I meant.

I expect she (irisflower) would have read some of the posts.  Her situation had changed again so I'm not sure how important it is for her to come back here.
Leaving was a shame because this site has some good info and resources.

I was feeling a bit confused as to what she thought.  I think she knew.  I think she may have found it difficult to ask questions due to her history.  I think more than anything she was feeling alone and afraid.

Oh dear.  I guess that wasn't meant to be.  Maybe a counsellor of some sort.  Maybe the biblical stuff gives you what you need and is the path you were meant to take.  ??
That's pretty sensitive.  Sometimes you have to hurt just to help.  I mean an example which is often used is that of a burning building.  It's not helpful to go and sit with the person and comfort them it is usually best to guide them to safety.  Hurting them to help them.

Thanks.  I'm sure our paths will cross again.

That reminded me of something I heard recently.  It is better to write for yourself and know your self than to write for the public and not know your self.

I think sometimes we know ourselves best when we talk with others.