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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!
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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have a confession so please listen. I was diagnosed with depression and given effexor as a med.
I never thought in my wildest dreams that I would be in such a place having to consider antidepressants to sustain me.
My life has recently suffered due to job loss, financial challenges, serious unexplained medical issues, and overall lack of joy.(want to be honest here). There are many storms happening and yet I continue to be strong. My question is, I'm scared to death of taking the effexor.I want to feel better but I just can't get motivated to take it. I recognize that there are other options but this makes me very uncomfortable. I desperately want to be made whole again. I never realized how my job kept me centered.Now with the health issues that I'm dealing with finding a new job is painful. I'm 52 years old. What a bummer. The last thing you need is free time and looking for a job under antidepressants.PLEASE HELP.
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Avatar_f_tn
If you have been prescribed medication then you should probably take it.
I'm anti-meds so I don't usually advocate for them but they do have a role.
I think the problem may be about what the medication means to you.  Taking medication doesn't make you weak or change who you are.

You could always try therapy if you don't want to take medication and long-term that will probably be more beneficial for you.
Use the time while you're unemployed to work on yourself.  That's a job in itself.

Taking medication is a difficult one.  I'm suppose to be taking iron supplements but stopped due to problems with mood and motivation.
I can give you scary scenarios about not treating depression.
I refused to take anti-depressants and eventually I was involuntarily hospitalized, forced to take meds and then threatened with ect.  Trust me, you don't want any of that.  Easier and less traumatic to address the depression now.
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667078_tn?1316004535
I will not pretend to know what is best for you or how you are feeling. In my own life I have had depression and had to try different treatments I was not eager to try. I thought they would impede my daily life when in fact the depression was impeding my functioning. My depression tends to tell me I do not need help when I know I really do.

Good luck to you,

Alex
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Avatar_m_tn
Hi Boots,

A dreadful time for you.

The things that have happened to you are major negative life events (obvious) and they do impact on us over time. If you get a number together it's almost inevitable we will be very down in modd for some time at least. Job loss at your age is devastating. I know. My career was taken away by depression at 48.

I have to say I always felt I hated work and only did it because I had to. But once it was gone it was a real shock to find out how much of my persona relied on what I got from work. You know, respect, satsifaction and a lot of good stuff. Just didn't appreciate it until it was gone really.

So I do understand how hard just that can hit.

I am confused though when you say you continue to be strong. What does that mean? Do you mean you don't feel depressed etc? As, if you don't then you don't need meds.

You haven't really listed any symptoms of depression except the overall lack of joy. That is a key one as it also tends to indicate a lack of any real motivation, not just for taking meds, and a lack of interest in most things.

If the lack of joy is the only thing you suffer then I say don't take the med, see a therapist, talk therapy, instead.

Whoever prescribed FX for you clearly thinks you are quite depressed as it is not used lightly. It is quite an effective anti D and deals with anxiety as well. I take it and have several times, all with good results.

There's nothing different about looking for work whilst taking anti d's. Except that you are likely to feel and appear much better than without them that is. This one isn't one which turns you into a zombie etc as some do tend to.

You say you are scared to death of taking it. Then don't. It's that simple. You have to make the decision about whether you need meds or not and what med if you don't like a particular one. The doc will find an alternative if it's the one med that worries you. My opinion is it is likely to be the most effective for you but clearly not if it makes you afraid.

I should say that meds will not make you whole again, in the long term. They can glue you together while you take them but the only real remedy is therapy, talking it out and YOU finding out the why's etc and learn how to deal with what's happened to you. Meds make the therapy side much more effective as you can think rationally etc.

It truly is up to you in the end. Docs help and so do meds and therapy but it's you that makes it work and become whole again.
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Avatar_m_tn
If you honestly think that this depression of yours is strictly "situational" meaning due to recient life drama and loss, then taking an antidepressant may not be the best approach.

In general most complaints about reactions to antidepressants come from people that have only situational depression and not a real chemicaly depressed brain.

In my case my depression was strictly non-situational and came about for neurological reasons still unknown. For me Effexor XR worked very well (I take different meds now) but I got 4 years of remission from my depression and anxiety from Effexor XR.

I think the real question is.....are you situationally depressed or are you suffering from Major depression as due to a chemical imbalance in your brain?
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Avatar_m_tn
Hello all and thank you for your responses.Please keep them coming. This is the only true therapy that I get. I can't afford a therapist right now. I'm sitting home right now wondering if this nightmare will end. Just one year ago I was ok. Had issues but I was fine. Now I'm a mess. This is so wrong.



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Avatar_f_tn
I think everything in life happens for a reason.  If you look hard enough you will find some meaning in all the 'mess'.
Work gave you an identity.  It's not lost it just needs time and some self-reflection.

The expert on the mental health expert forum told me that memories, thoughts and feelings, etc are just pieces of information that can't hurt.
Being scared to death is just you giving it power when in fact it has none.
Just a thought.

Wanting to be made whole again implies that you're not now.
If work made you whole, what can you do to re-create that?  What feelings and needs does it involve?

You may like to consider other options too such as voluntary work, a hobby, study, etc.  Find an activity you can do to help you feel fulfilled.
Maybe there's work to be done on or around the house??

The options will be endless if you get creative and think outside the square.
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Avatar_m_tn
Hi Boots,

Glad to hear back from you as it's often frustrating to write to someone who says nothing. So we know you are listening and that's why we all come here really, to talk to each other.

I just want to say something in answer to Hensley that is relevant to me, and you if that's OK.

Hey Hensley. This long term issue of what is chemically changed and what is not I believe was combined quite some time ago now. Like the same issue about what's genetic and what's not. The genetic issue has never been proven but the "Twins" studies suggested about 33% of humans are depressed from birth which means the rest are environmental, or situational as you put it. It also used to be called reactive depression. That is, reacting to a situation or event etc.

My understanding is they are all called environmental now, except the possible genetic ones. What doesn't change with an environmental cause is, for example, if an abusive partner is causing the depression. A pill won't help that for sure. Or if it's your job causing it, staying there and taking pills will not help that either. SO it is a matter of what sort of cause it is and whether that source of depression has been changed.

Another example is a relationship breakup. Say a couple break up but continue to share the house. One becomes depressed because they broke up but still lives with the person. A pill won't help that either. See what I'm saying?

So, in Boots case, having lost the job it is probably harmful if Boots has contact with that employer or even some of the employees of that organisation.

In my case I had to stay in legal contact with my ex employer for nearly seven years and it triggered me also nearly every day. Oncve contact was severed? The anger and so on disappeared and it was not activated again. One problem was removed.

Either way though Hensley, those of us who are depressed long term due to environmental causes do indeed have a changed brain, chemically changed. It is the depression which causes the change, not the other way around. So, for me, having initially been affected at age 10, have had 48 years so far of being depressed although there were long periods, one of 25 years, where I didn't feel depressed. I was always though a negative, devil's advocate person though and drove the cheery people nuts. Hell, they deserve it don't they?

So, what I'm saying is mine was environmental and FX works great for me and has over the last decade, on and off as needed. I've been on other meds in between as you know most meds reach a tolerance level after a time and need changing.

I've had 3 major events causing depression at ages 10, 35 and 48. The age 10 one was ignored by all as it was "pretend everything is OK" time back then. That's the underlying problem and essential cause of the other two which were marriage breakdown and then career ended by others.

So anti d's certainly work on environmental depression as it is essentially the same as the genetic depression.Yours is, as you say, neurologically based, cause unspecified as yet. Frsutrating for you to be extremely mild. I only took about 40 years to work out why I felt like I did. As old as you are now. But, no. Not me, I'm not slow! I'm just another human who was trained to believe we could fix ourselves without any help, always. Took 40 years to break down that defence.

Surprisingly I'm no longer bitter about all those wasted years as I've still pretty much done everything I wanted to. Didn't get to be an international gigolo but what the hell huh? I still have a lot of rage though, mainly from early childhood I have established. Not abuse, just constant nagging if you like.

I've written this mainly for Boots just to consider the issues I mention and the way meds are not useful and where they may be rather than to try and convince anybody of anything I believe.
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Avatar_m_tn
I understand what your saying and yes I do think there is some validity to the point your making.

If the depressive situation and environment has been going on in a persons life for many years, then yes there is speculation that this constant trauma can actually change the brain in very negitive ways. Effectivly creating a "depressed and chemicaly altered brain."

What I'm saying is that your average joe that is down in the dumps because his ex-wife is giving him grief and he is having money problems, is no indicator for Major Depression.

This man may show many of the signs of depression, but to say that he is clinically depressed is not on target. The man may have a perfectly healthy brain, but a bad situation which is causing him much depression at the given time.

Should this person start taking antidepressants? I'm not so sure thats a good idea for a person like this. Lets first plow into his past and see what his past mood cycles have been like before prescribing pills.

It is a fact that people who are given and take antidepressants who do not have "Real" properly diagnosed Major depression or at least an anxiety dissorder or both, do not respond well to the treatment. This is simple and proven fact.
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I understand your reluctance to go on AD's.  I had to deal with that myself, twice.  One thing that helped me was that my therapist told me it should only take 18 months for my brain to heal and to watch out for "old school" therapists that like to keep people on it indefinately.    Going on AD's doesn't mean you're weak or that you're giving up.  It just means you need some help getting through your situation.  Ask your Dr. if there are other options besides Effexor that could be beneficial for you.  I tried it and found it was too strong for me.  The withdrawals were very difficult however, I know a friend who withdrew just fine.
Therapy is something you should look into.  Depending on where you live, you should be able to find some free stress workshops, etc.  Hospitals usually offer free preventative workshops or support groups.
Also, I found a psychiatrist who actually tries natural remedies first!  Do some research and see if you can find a Dr. who is willing to try B vitamins, or SAM-E, etc.  
There are so many options out there for you so take heart!  You are your body's best advocate.  
Job loss is very stressful and I think it is normal to be struggling with how to cope with all the change.  I wish you peace and joy today!
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Avatar_f_tn
I feel confused by people's posts.
Isn't all depression situational?  Granted it's been ages since I've bothered to research anything on depression (including endogenous depression, etc) but for the most part don't we just feel down because there're issues there that we haven't resolved?

I personally don't believe people should be taking ad's for mild depression, or even moderate depression for that matter, when talking through the issues would be much more beneficial.
Doctor's too readily prescribed these happy pills these days (and mainly only because patients ask for them).  I wonder how many of the perceived benefits are due to the placebo effect?
I saw a program where it said all drugs (medications) do harm but a doctor needs to weigh up the harm vs the benefit.

I think relationship issues and financial difficulties are risk factors for major depression.  I agree that feeling blue does not necessarily indicate that one is depressed.  I think feeling down does indicate that some things in our lives need working on and I think that sometimes when that work isn't done that we can get depressed.  Mood exists on a continuum.  We shift on it based on how we feel.

If he shows any signs or symptoms of depression then I would argue that he or his brain is healthy.
How do you tell if a brain is unhealthy anyway?  I'm sure that would involves tests which would then make it considerably less healthy.

These are just some of my thoughts and opinions.
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Avatar_m_tn
No that's not the case at all.

To say that Major depression is situational is much like saying a person with Schizopherenia must have Schizo effective dissorder simply because he or she is in a bad life situation.

Major Depression is in fact mostly a real medical and mental illness. The people who suffer from it have actual detectable problems inside the brain. The brain of a non-depressed person and the brain of a person with the disease major depression show marked differences in brain scan study.

This is why it is called a disease. It is a real illness just like any other mental illness.

If all depression were situational then Major depression wouldn't really be a problem now would it. Once one corrected the situation and improved their life then all the symptoms of depression would vanish right? Wrong. It doesn't work that way.

You can't take a person with a sick brain and remove external problems and expect that to correct that persons depression.

Many people with Major depression report that they have often been at their worst regarding their condition, even when externaly their life was fine.

Major Depression doesn't need a reason to strick someone down. It can and does so all the time for no real external reason at all.

You are confusing simple sadness or a "down in the dumps" feeling that is normal for all people when they are hit by rough life situations. Those are called rational and healthy emotions.

The disease of Major Depression is far different. In fact the symptoms are even different and obviously MUCH more severe and chronic. They often happen for no logical reason at all except to make an attempt to destroy the sufferer.

Bi-polar dissorder is no different in it's destructivness. No matter what type of Bi-polar it is this dissorder is also not "situational."

For people that would say, "you just need long term exposure to life trauma and you will develope Major Depression or Bi-polar dissorder, or perhaps anxiety dissorder."

I say that's a load of ****. I happen to know people who were beat and abused in horrible ways growing up and they do not suffer these diseases as adults.

Think about all the WWII vets that saw and had to do unspeakable things. They were shell shocked, shot at and saw death everyday. Yes, I agree a percentage of them did experience Porst Tramatic stress dissorder and later major depression, but the vast majority did not and went on to live mentally healthy.

So I do not buy into this notion that trauma causes Major depression. It just doesn't hold water.
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Avatar_f_tn
I think most depression can be traced back to some life event.
I'm not saying that depression isn't real.
I don't think it is like all other mental illnesses though.  And quite possibly that's taken into account with it being an Axis I disorder.
Like I said, depression exists on a continuum.  I think in many of those cases there are still underlying issues that haven't been resolved.  I'm prepared to give some latitude but I think for most people they're still depressed because there life isn't working as they would like it.  Or because they have unresolved grief.
If those external factors were what caused the depression, then yes.

Depression is also affected by a persons thoughts, feelings and perceptions.

I don't think I am.  I think you're missing the point.
Difficult life situations can result in feeling down, etc that can then lead to depression.
I think depression does happen for a reason (at least most of the time).  If you think it doesn't then I think you lack insight.

I would say that bipolar is more biological in nature.

I think some people are more predisposed to illness.  My theory is that if you do significantly stress individuals for long enough then they will show signs of mental illness.  Studies show that to be true.  Individuals who are severely sleep deprived become psychotic, etc.

Perhaps war gave meaning to their life?

I think it does.  I don't think just taking meds cures depression.  I think a major component is due to lifestyle and past issues.
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Avatar_m_tn
Well of course just taking meds does not cure Major Depression. It's just a treatment and nothing more. There is no cure for Major depression and this includes taking medication for the illness.

You say Bi-polar is strictly a real illness of the brain, yet Uni-polar depression is not? That is in fact what your saying if you read your post again.

Uni-polar depression is a mental and brain dissorder just the same as any other mental illness.

Tell me then why it is that people with Uni-polar depression show marked differences in brain fuction as it relates to the area of the brain that regulates mood?

Is this because their Daddy didn't give them enough attention as a child? Poppy **** I say.

My Psychiatrist is also a Neurologist and leader of the Psychopharmocology center at Tulane university. He knows that situational events in a persons life are not the largest reason for such profound changes in the brain.

Given that he is on the cutting edge of mental health research, I think I will trust his opinion over yours. He has the hard facts and data that you do not.

When you complete 12 years of university study and an additional 4 years to be a licenced Psychopharmocologist, and also an additional 20 years of active practice, then I will listen to your far out and unfounded argument about how all situations cause Uni-polar depression. Until that day you may want to keep your uneducated theorys to yourself.

They only serve to upset the members here that have a real mental illness the likes of which you obviously do not have.

For you I am happy that you resolved your "life situation" and released yourself from your illness, but for the vast majority of people with a real mental illness it is not that easy and just doesn't work like that.

Just as I always say, "you can never expect a non-sufferer to understand the dynamics of a real mental illness because they have no personal concept to measure it by."

When your body is trembling, your head feels like it may explode from the inside out, you haven't even concentration enough to read a childs book and suicide makes you feel warm and good inside, then you can step in my office and act like you understand. Until that day, you haven't a clue IMO.
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Avatar_f_tn
If depression were purely biological in nature, like you seem to be suggesting, then one would expect medication to make a difference and given the right medication to cure.

I believe bipolar is more biological, yes.  But then I'm not a psychiatrist, or a neurologist or a psycho-pharmacologist.

I never said depression wasn't a mental illness.  Just that I believe a lot of its origins are psychological.

Because issues have gotten them down thus affecting mood (and quite possibly results on a PET scan).

Nurture is an important factor.  Goodness of fit and attachment are also important for emotional growth and development.

I wonder where your doctor is getting his research funding from?  He wouldn't have any biases or conflicts of interest would he?

Your beliefs are somewhat different to my own and while you gravitate more towards medication I gravitate more towards therapy and experts who better understand the effect issues have on us (our brains) and our lives.

And I will trust myself and the experts who better understand.
I'm happy for you to feed your brain with toxic substances that at best only manage symptoms.

I left the door open for some purely biological cases.
You're taking what I'm trying to say out of context.  Not every event will cause someone to become severely depressed.  That's crazy!

Me challenging a view upsets people?  Yes, I can see that it would.  It is much easier to live a life of denial.
I am not minimizing the affect mental illness has on an individual (or even a society).  I am not saying that mental illness is not valid.
I am not saying that a person should not listen to either themself or their doctor.  I think recovery in very individualistic and is different for everybody.
I am not forcing my views on people and saying do this.  I am saying I believe the recovery process is different for every person.  Recovery is a process and a journey.  That process should be flexible though and not exist at the exclusion of all other possibilities.
I stand by what I say when I say I believe psychotherapy is very important.

Is it that obvious I don't have one.  I wish I didn't have psych diagnoses or psych records about three or four volumes thick.

My recovery process is ongoing.  How long do you think it takes to resolve trauma?
It's not like whacking a plaster cast on a broken limb and six weeks later it's healed.

I would argue that out of many others with mental illness that mine has been as, if not more, disabling.
I think a lot of others here have probably experienced that distress and disability also.

You can judge me all you like.  I wish you wouldn't though.

It's interesting that you feel I haven't experienced any of those symptoms.
At the moment I am not trembling and my head feels OK but that is more because I'm not running from the existence of issues.  I am trying to identify them and resolve them.  As for poor concentration I do struggle with that.  My concentration has also been made worse recently because I have been anemic and sleep deprived.
I don't think you should be inciting suicidal thoughts -they are never warm and fuzzy.
If you knew even a little about me or my psych history or were perhaps even just a little sensitive you would understand that they are dangerous comments to be making.  You don't want me on this forum because you don't think I understand or have experiences.  Are you kidding??  Do I have to be suicidal to have credibility?
Can you not even see the tree for the forest?

I actually come here to distract from my low mood and suicidal urges.
Thank you for making it a welcoming (and safe) place.

I think you defend against depression so strongly because you're afraid to look at what's behind it.  That is just my personal opinion.
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Avatar_m_tn
Just because an illness is biological in nature doesn't mean that it will always respond to medication. There is a reason there are so many different classes of antidepressants. The reason is because not all people with the same illness respond to the same medication.

They may need a different class of drug or maybe a combination of drugs.

Here we have countless thousands of members with all different types of depression. Did you know that 99.9% of them have never experienced relief from CBT Cognative Behavioral Therapy or any other type of talk therapy.

Should we tell these people that they just didn't try hard enough because their problem is "situational" and that they are not digging deep enough into their past to remove the root of their depression?

I don't think that would be very motivating to most sufferers.

You keep working on that self affermation if it is working for you. Unfortunatly for the vast majority of people suffering, only meds provide proper relief.

There are people with what is called Mild Depression. In many cases these people can make it without medication. I am happy that they do just that.

What about the people with Severe uni-polar depression that is very chronic? The ones that never had any life trauma ever. Do we say, "tuff luck, you should look in the mirror and ask yourself what your problem is." According to you that will cure them.

I can tell you that they have already tried that approach and it has gotten them no where.

I have never met one person with a very severe case of Major depression that was able to overcome the dissorder or fuction at a normal level unless they were taking the proper medications. Not even one.

I'm sorry, but when the disease gets to that advanced level you can't just wish it away, nor can you talk it away. Don't think I'm right about that? Just ask some people here that have severe depressive and anxiety dissorder. They will tell you the exact same thing.

Now, we do have people with Mild depression that think their depression was severe. Problem is that their symptoms are not the same. These people with mild depression were able to fight thru their illness without meds.

It is mild sufferers that often look at Severe chronic sufferers and brush them off as people that can do anything without meds because they don't understand.

Could you be one of these people?
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Avatar_f_tn
I too, am in your situation in trying to find a job at 59 and my best friend at 60, and it is very depressing.  Depresion comes in two froms "chemical imbalance" and "situational."  Like what you are going thru right now is "situational" eveything in your life is affecting you in a way that makes you depressed, and it is times like this when medication can help you through until things improve, and then you can get off the meds.  A chemical imbalance means you have just that and will need to be on meds for the rest of your life.  There are millions of people who only take medication during difficult times like what you're enduring, death of a loved one, divorce, etc.  Taking your meds may help you function, and feel better while going thru this. I worked for years while taking anti-depressants, millions have and still do, it shouldn't affect you in a negative way.  You have to decide what is best for you, but if I were you, I'd take them.  Also, know you're not alone and that many of us are going through the same right now.
Take care........
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Avatar_f_tn
Doctors don't even really understand why or how medications work.  
Have you read, Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy by Dr David Burns?
In the intro it says that genetic influences account for about 16% of depression while for many life influences appear to be the most important cause.  It also says that cbt can be as effective as drugs and for many patients be more effective.  And that following recovery patients treated with psychotherapy are more likely to remain undepressed and significantly less likely to relapse than patients treated with ad's alone.

I have been depressed and have benefited from psychoanalytical psychotherapy.

It should always be assumed that patients are trying their best to recover.
Looking at a persons past can be sensitive and it shouldn't be addressed with the finesse of a bulldozer.
I don't think attacking patients or making them feel inadequate for their efforts is constructive.  In most cases that would only serve to deepen the depression.

I don't believe in affirmations.  Therapy is considerably different to affirmations or forcing yourself to believe something is true when it is not.  That's not therapy.  Not in my opinion anyway.

I think everyone has life-trauma or events which have affected them.
No, I suggest people address issues with a T.  I don't propose people look in the mirror.

I have been diagnosed with severe depression.  Aside from the medication I was forced to take while in hospital my mood improved and I returned to a baseline level of functioning.  I read that most depressions resolve naturally within nine months.

I have issues with both mood and anxiety.  Resolving issues does help with both.  Being more entrenched means that there needs to be a lot more talking.  Two weeks of therapy isn't sufficient.  You wouldn't go to a gym twice and expect long-term benefits.

I'm not confusing the severity of depression.  Trust me.  I tried to convince doctors that my depression wasn't bad and they are the ones who wanted to give me ect for severe depression.  I was happy to go to therapy and less happy (but willing if it meant avoiding ect) to take meds.  I understand severe depression.

You could argue that a severely depressed person is sufficiently unwell to appreciate the true benefit or even need of medication but I still insist that that decision should be made with the patient.  If I don't want to take meds then that decision should be respected (regardless of whether I'm deemed to be mentally disordered or not).

I'm not sure why my stance has you (and maybe others) believing that there is no mood disorder.
Certainly there has been times when I just really don't care and accept sleeping pills or medication for anxiety but ... I prefer to fight the battle without meds.
Severity of mood doesn't typically alter my non-compliance with meds.
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Avatar_m_tn
Sorry but I am not from the old school Freudian camp such as you are.

I have worked many years with various Psychotherapists and it was all a huge waste of money for me. I also know so many just like me that derived no benifit from Psychotherapy no matter how long they were involved in it.

As for this Dr. Burns that you quote..... I can also show you 10 times that many books written by cutting edge Psychiatrist that de-bunk everything Mr. Burns is saying.

So in short we dissagree. You think my severe depression was caused because my daddy didn't change my diaper on time when I was a child. This upset me and made me cry and feel abandond.

I say that this condition was not caused because my Mommy spanked me when I stole a lollie pop as a child.

Not everyone has past life trauma my dear. Many with severe depression also do not have past life trauma. To say that everyone does is just crazy talk.
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Avatar_m_tn
Back to your response to myself.

Yeah, I agree. Many that are diagnosed as depressed and given anti d's would possibly have recovered with a bit of decent care and counselling. And yes I generally refer to long term, deep depression as that's what I know. To be blunt I usually think of anything less as "a little worried" although that's biased. They still feel bad I know but essentially I do agree a short term illness like that is not a brain changer.

And re Boots, again I agree. He hadn't given enough info at the stage I last posted to be thinking anti d's, especially FX. But as we know if you tell a GP you're depressed they knock you down reaching for the prescription pad don't they?

I'll read on and see what else Boots may have added.

To Camamtin,

Any doc who gives you a time frame by which you will be cured is an idiot and should be avoided. Sorry but predictions of timing are not possible. I must add that your view on Effexor is backwards. You throw out the concern about withdrawal as if it is a given yet you say nothing about the benefits of this drug.

Add in using a psychiatrist who dishes out vitamens and I think I know your "line". Why go to a doc at all? Just go to the vitamen shop!. That response is less than helpful for someone who is suffering.

Jac,

No. All depressions are not environmental at all. If you had researched you would know that.

Could I ask what this is supposed to mean :

"If he shows any signs or symptoms of depression then I would argue that he or his brain is healthy. "

That makes no sense at all. Your following statements also are off the mark. I have seen nowhere brains referred to as "unhealthy". There is a noted chemical difference identified by certain processes for those who have been very depressed for long periods but that brain is still not "unhealthy" at all. It's the thoughts that are unhealthy as that same brain can be trained back to allowing healthy thought, rational thought.

You also say tests would make the brain more unhealthy? Really? Where did that come from? You won't find anything in medical science to support that view either.

You mention finance and relationships as stress areas. Just two of a list that is endless. A noise can be the trigger for some. The weather, their partner, the person on their bus who whistles all the time. Anything can create this illness, it is relative to the individual and their life experiences.

I'll stop here and catch up with the rest of the conversation later. Jac, I'd really recommend you research depression again (you said you had) as many of the things you say have never been espoused by anyone and are not valid at all. Sorry. It's fine to have an opinion but on this topic facts are necessary.


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Who, I amended my comment to include the 16% of depressions which are said to have genetic origins.  This figure may have changed somewhat in recent years.

If a person has MDD then they are clearly not healthy or well.  
Depression severely affects a persons GAF.

If the difference is of clinical significance then that implies that the values, etc lie outside the parameters considered to be normal or healthy.

It is the thoughts that are unhealthy.  Thank you.  I think you finally got it.  The thoughts which can be addressed through psychotherapy.

On the contrary, medical tests come with risks.  One expert recently posted about the radiation exposure from some tests.  There is research to support this.

Yes, whatever the person considers stressful (which can be real or perceived).  I think the main factor is whether the person feels in control.  If they do it is unlikely that the stressor will affect them that badly.  If the person feels powerless it is more likely that they will become depressed.
Not anything!  A persons perceptions.  How they think and feel about something.  And also about what that means to a person.

I disagree with what you say and I have valid comments.  I would suggest you extend the parameters of your research.  I believe you are excluding aspects that are extremely important to the understanding of depression and other mental illnesses.
The disclaimer to the left of the screen says that comments reflect members personal opinions only.  I don't think it is necessary that I alone should cite all my resources.  This is not an academic paper but a post.

To Hensley.  I think you need to revisit the definition of trauma.  Trauma can vary.  It too probably exists on a continuum.

I don't think thrashing this topic is benefiting anyone and I am finding it extremely destructive.  I didn't come here to engage in a power struggle or a battle of wills.  I came here to participate.

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Sorry Jac,

But making sweeping statements means nothing at all. Quote references and maybe you have something to say. Until  then I treat your knowledge as superficial and your statements as harmful to anyone reading them as, in my opinion, they are very misleading indeed.

I made a reference early in this thread to genetic depression being about 33$, an estimate at best. You stated after that there is no genetic depression, all is environmental.

Now you state genetic is about 16%. Why did you change your opinion? Why did you not read what I wrote and check it out? You didn't, just totally ignored it and ploughed on with misleading statements which do harm people. As, if they believe you, they pick it up and quote it elsewhere.

By the way the twins study is not "new" information. It's been around for decades which tells me how thorough your own research is.

Similarly you say thet BP is more genetic than BP. On what basis do you make that assumption? There is a theory of that ilk but it is just a theory based on the "cluster" connection. No scientific evidence at all to date. There may be in the future, but isn't right now.

That is, where children of parents who have depression develop depression then the assumption is that they must have inherited it.

Not so, most learn it by living with people who behave in a depressed manner and unintentionally impose their behaviour on their kids. That is not genetic.

I have been diagnosed as bp2 but mine is not genetic. No history for starters. I acknowledge it as correct given my experience 10 years ago and a couple of events since but I know it developed at about age 48 due to maltreatment by incompetent docotrs and psychiatrists.

Additionally it is also well known today that many anti depressants DO invoke BP periods, or periods of mania/hypomania.

Enough of your childish put downs without the background to justify what you claim.

It is damaging to spread misinformation and I do not intend to sit still when I see it. It is your choice whether you continue trying to insist your claims are valid but be prepared to produce evidnec else it will be scorn.

If you don't have the ability to read and think then don't waste my time.
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I've just read your statement about trying to fight depression without meds.

I wasn't aware that was the case but if so then I do wish you the very best of luck and support. It's what we would all like to achieve Jaq and if you can do it I applaud you.

The problem I have with people who want that to work is they seem to get their minds into a state that says "I must not use anything or I'll fail". And there is no need to decry meds or other treatments either.

By the way, Dr Burns? Feeling Good was published in 1980 and is no longer relevant. If you check his website he does not include dates for the early books which is now a series.

Why does he need a series of books if the first one was accurate? Please, do answer that question, for yourself. I know the answer.

It's not like that. There's no need to put down anyone for how they try to deal with their illness, it is always their decision. But if it involves picking up peripheral opinions that are not valid then I disagree with it.

By all means use that for yourself but don't preach it as fact. Do you follow? You make it feel like you winning an argument with feelings against facts and logic will somehow justify something and that is of no interest to me.

I always write on these forums with everyone reading in mind and say what I know or believe to be true and proven. If it is a theory I say so. I don't guess. When there is dount, I ask my pdoc who will ask his colleagues if he isn't up on the particular topic.I don't like getting personal but I can certainly play that game very well. I just hate it on these forums but if it's necessary then sobeit.

I just wanted to ask you this too.

On another thread you started titled "Support" you stated you had none and asked where to find it.

Both Hensley and I gave you options but regardless of what was said, you rekjected it and claimed you were alone and had no support.

Subsequently you revealed you have a great GP. That's morte support thasn the majority of sufferers ever get. But you denied he is support.

Then you also revealed your family is supportive and yet they too were denied in your earlier statements.

The way I read what yopu say Jac is that you are very defensive and will automatically deny anything someone else says but later see the light.

My question is Why deny you had any support when you have both a great GP and good family support? I assume when you say you have no support that you are speaking the truth. Clearly, you don't.

When you attacked my considerate response and avoided all the personal issues it became clear where you are at Jac.

For example you stated you didn't know why you felt so much worse at night. I told you and you said nothing, Probably ignored it as you hadn't heard of it.

It's simply the Diurnal Mood Variation that is basic to all serious depressions. Docs ask you the question, usually without explaining. They ask "Do you feel better in the morning or at night?" If you say either then they know your depression is valid you see. You didn't know this so again I question your claimed knowledge. This is depression 101.

Please, desist with this stuff and focus on your struggle without meds. You have the support of all on that, truly you do. No one would wish you to fail, not here.
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You take everything so literally who.
For the most part I use myself as a reference.  That is, I express my opinions based on my experiences, my research, etc.  My understanding or perception of anything can only ever be made against my history and personal experiences which change over time.

While you were busy warning people off misinformation you neglected to say that the internet is perhaps one of the biggest sources of inaccurate and unreliable information.

That's correct.  I have minimal support.
Did I need to include the dog too?  Animals are good emotional support.
I did read all your suggestions.
My GP's role is to deal with physical issues.  His role is not to provide therapy which I should be receiving from the mhs, but aren't.
I don't have an understanding family.  My family do not support me.

I accept that people are entitled to their views and opinions.  I try to be open minded but I don't feel that I change my stance without good cause.

Having a good GP does not mean I'm being supported for my mh issues.  Support isn't having someone hold your hand and tell you you're depressed.  At least that isn't my idea of support.  I was referring to support during my illness.  Support that will help me move forward.  Not support that helps me to merely exist or even support that destabilizes me.

That's not true.  I'm aware of what diurnal variation is.  In fact it is hard for me not to know as that was one of the symptoms the inpatient psychiatrist used in his letter to the court when he applied to have my stay lengthened.
I think my mood probably gets worse over the day as I have more time to think.  It is probably because everything compounds over the course of the day.

I feel your last comment was patronizing and insincere.

Maybe that is the problem.  Maybe (subconsciously) I feel angry because medication is readily available but psychoanalytical psychotherapy (which has been helpful) isn't.
Maybe I am projecting issues here because I feel people are invalidating my chosen path to recovery (which is through therapy and not meds).  ??
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I hope that you all are still with me. Again, things are very dicey .I have my good days and bad ones. My situation (job, physical health, financial concerns), is wearing on me.Now that the holidays are here I dread visiting my cousin due to my health issue.(I'll explain this later). Support group I hope you're still out there. I am really struggling with my life and need you. How do I make it through? Whodunnit, you stated that your career was taken away by depression.  What are you doing now to keep yourself busy? I need to know that there is hope for me. Please help....
(Note: health issue...unexplained weight loss, dental issues, overall ...uncomfortable with the dramatic changes my body, life and mind has taken)
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Hi

Just a thought. For me i have to have meaningful work. I have to have a reason to get out of be. If you cant find a job then i suggest volunteering somewhere you are needed.

Well for me this is essential in my recovery.  Also i would take the medication, for sure. You might not need medication for ever, but it will get you through this patch.

I wish you the best of lick and get back to us.
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