Sleep problem suggestions, please?

[el_dave]

I saw that 'sleep problems' was an appropriate topic for this forum, so I'm hoping for the benefit of you good folks' expertise. It's odd, I don't want to wake up once asleep, but getting to sleep is extremely difficult. Here's what works ninety percent of the time: 1 lunesta or sonata (whichever is available to me at the time), 2 ounces of Nyquil, 2 over the counter sleep aids (50 mg of whatever puts the 'PM' in 'Tylenol PM') and one mg xanax. Ninety percent of the time that combo puts me out in an hour or so. Subtract the 1 mg of xanax, which I often don't include in order to avoid developing a tolerance, and the success rate drops to perhaps sixty or seventy percent, and it takes a couple of hours to work. What I'd like to know is if you folks have any suggestions regarding what I might ask the VA people to provide that might be powerful enough to knock me out for the night, yet not be as destructive of my liver as I've been led to believe the combinations I use now are.  Has anyone any suggestions, please? Thank you very much in advance for your time.

[Jade59]

You are taking quite a combo there.  I have sleep problems too and take 1mg Xanax at night only.  I'm afraid I don't have any suggestions as to what might be more powerful than what your taking, but I can tell you this.  Once one gets into the habit of taking something for sleep every single night, then rebound insomnia is likely to come into play.  If anything, I would suggest speaking with the therapist about an anti-depressant like Traxedone or Remeron.  Both of those are designed to help with sleep I think.  I am interested in getting off the Xanax, and the Traxedone was suggested to me because of it's sedating effect.  Taking all that you do, I suspect, is keeping you from getting any kind of quality sleep and is probably contributing to your depression.  

Hope this helps...

[el_dave]

Well, hi again! Thanks, I'll look those up and see. Of course, that's not to say the Dr. will prescribe one of them! The combo I use has been for years, but I have to tell you that when it does get me to sleep I do sleep like a log and wake up "rested". The only problem is, I don't like the idea of facing another day. Oh, my, waidaminnit, waidaminnit.. I knew I'd seen that "remeron" somewhere before. That's the stuff (aka mirtazapine) that resulted in the flashback. Well, it was sort of a combination flashback and nightmare, I guess. My girlfriend and I were in Viet Nam, it was a beautiful summer day. It was the "new" VN, the one we send tourists to now that they're not shooting us. I heard choppers, and looked up to see a flight of them, and they were dropping what appeared to be upside down Christmas trees. The lights detached themselves from the trees, and were falling, and I suddenly realized that they were "cluster bombs". I pushed my lady friend to the ground, told her to stay put, and tried to cover her. She got up and started running, and as will happen in dreams the "cluster bombing" became mortar fire. I have a great deal of experience with mortar fire. Well, they were walking them right onto us, and she was up and running, and from the sound I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that the next one was going to get her. I know it doesn't sound so awfully bad, but you'd have to know the girl and you'd have to understand what hearing and feeling mortars walking toward you feels like, and you'd have to have seem a body that results from them. If you knew the girl you'd understand the horror of it, she is the opposite of everything that's wrong with the world. So I've got that stuff right here, 'mirtazapine 30 mg' of which I'd taken half a tablet according to instructions.  I'm very afraid of it. I have to say, though, that I didn't take any of the other stuff (again, per instructions) and did sleep until I woke up screaming and drowning in grief. The VA lady told me it's a valid side effect of the stuff. I'll check out the 'traxedone', though, and thank you for giving me that to work with. I apologize for rambling.

[xanweaner]

I still don't understand why you aren't interested in being with other vets from VN who also have PTSD? No one but a vet can truly understand the horrors of that war and the damage that ensued to so many soldiers' brains and psyches.

I would think that talking it out would be very therapeutic...
Sorry if I keep going back to this point...just want to understand....

p.s. I took traxodone - made me very conjested - sinus wise...

[el_dave]

Most of them are a lot worse off than I. I saw a little action as a combat engineer, because I'd gone through infantry AIT also I got parked behind an M60 at night a lot.. but when they found out I'd had a radio license since I was a kid they put me on the portable MARS stations, and I believe I've already explained what the problem there was. The problem I had was listening to these guys personal communications with their loved ones, having a beer with the guy later while he bragged about his baby he'd never seen, and then later find that the guy was dead. It happened numerous times.. not always a new baby involved, but I think you probably get my drift. That's still not unbearable. The biggest personal problem I had was expecting a mortar or rocket to drop in on us any time for a year, and a few times we were in danger of being overrun so had to do the soldier thing for real.. That's nothing compared to what so many others went through, and is still very bearable. Coming home, we had one consolation.. the people seemed to have won. We pulled out of there, where we knew we never should have been in the first place. At least the guys who died accomplished one thing: the American people no longer let the government squander their son's lives on a war that was a lie. Now it's happening all over again. The people are "drinking the Kool Aid", as my Iraq vet son in law puts it, and the body bags are coming back home again. The worst part is that even many vets are playing along with it despite having known what the truth was back in the sixties and seventies. Every guy who lost his life in that useless war is turning over in his grave. So I'm not happy as a veteran, no, but it's not the same as guys who went out on patrol every day and had their friends shot to pieces around them. Those are the guys you're thinking of. The VA people say I have PTSD, but I think what I have is a hard earned aversion to senseless death and destruction. Am I making any sense at all?

[xanweaner]

No, I'm not only referring to the soldiers who were in the trenches, shooting, etc...I'm referring to anyone who was a part of the whole disaster. I believe that you do have PTSD - and there is no shame, weakness, etc. in possibly considering it. I know that the more you talk about it, the more you can get it out, deal with it, and sometimes, quiet the demon.

I can't even talk about this whole Iraq mess - all I know is that we will be dealing with so many wounded soldiers that I hope and pray that our VA system gets a complete revamping. It's a mess....I know all too well....I walked the halls of many VA's in this country, as I was a medical sales rep. calling on the docs, surgeons, and ICU's...

And yes, you made total sense...
I'd write more but it's time to shut down the ole computer for the nite....
Have a restful evening, dave and all....

[el_dave]

I think they may be improving a bit. My Dad walked out of a VA waiting room after waiting three hours after his "scheduled appointment" time. Never went back, though he knew he had cancer. It killed him two years later. The longest wait I've had past the "scheduled appointment" time has been about ten minutes.  Perhaps they're getting things geared up for the new guys.

No, I won't try to get you to talk about Iraq. Talk about a depressing subject!

Uh oh! I see in the monitor the Mrs. is home, and I have not done the dishes. What pain med would you recommend for one having had a frying pan laid upside the head? Also, since it will have been a dirty one, any recommended antiseptics?

Oh, Jeez. I always run out to close and lock the gates. She gets out crying. One of her best friends at work died last night. I knew the lady too. She and I shared a ribald sense of humor, and my wife was always laughing when she said "You two cut that out!" Oh, man. I have to go.

[xanweaner]

That is a very sad story about your Dad. I'm sorry that he passed on without getting the help that he earned.

I'm happy to hear that you're getting results from them. I found the VA's incredibly sad places...and I used to tell friends that when they were having a "bad hair" day or feeling "ugly", they should walk the halls of a VA. You won't feel the same after that.

Did you pick an AD yet? I couldn't tolerate any of the SSRI's - they make me agitated, nervous, feeling awful...worst than the depression. So, I take mirtazapine - Remeron. It's not perfect, but can be affective - it's a tetracyclic, so it's in a different class of AD's.

Good luck in your pick, and hope that you're beginning to feel better now that you're opening up and getting support.

Best,
-xan-

[el_dave]

Wow, SSRI, that's what this paroxetine is, right? Mirtapazine gave me a flashback, can't touch that. This paroxetine stuff, well, I got angry. Can't have that. I'm seriously considering giving up on the idea of these brain-changings chemicals.. I know there's no chance they'd give me anything I could take when the pit is deep but don't have to take otherwise. Anyway, I may have given up on the chemicals just from the experiences of these first two. I was lying big time to FMXSMKR about my reason for the xanax thing, it was my intention to do the deed. It is no longer, but that's not because of chemicals, it's more due to stuff I've read in here, stuff I've said in here, and the VA lady (in that order).

Right now I have two big problems: I've gone checking, and seen a number of cases where people seem to be in need, leave what are obviously cries of distress, but the number of people who are able to help them seem to be very small compared to the number of people that need help. Being a know nothing, I make some feeble attempts, but 1. I have NO idea how to help myself, much less anyone else, and 2. my available time is so limited. Number two comes into play especially since I've got this hooker I know to sit out under a canopy with me for two hours earlier yakking about, to begin with, how a good hit of crack is God's gift to mankind and leading gently to why it might be that despite that I won't pick up the pipe. Oh, I'm proved, I've had it shoved at me, on the pipe, take a hit, let's boogey. So this hooker and I spent some time exploring why it might be that I say no. I think I was playing "VA lady". But she did end up crying, and wanting her kids, and tired of "the life". Of course you're thinking that the pretty young lady was leading the old fool down the primrose path, but I've been where she's at and SO much deeper, and you honestly can't bs an old bser. So now I've got me a truck to repair (she lives in it) and no money for parts and will have that to deal with too. Depressing? No, being needed isn't depressing, it's salvation.

I took her to buy more groceries and let her have $20. I didn't tell her she'd be betraying me if she bought a rock with it, but that it's true it would make me happy if she didn't.  Then I left a small hint as to a slight possibility of coming up with a few more bucks this afternoon (I wouldn't really, of course). I'm very happy to say that she's not been back.. if you know rock stars, you know how elaborate their tales are and how urgent their jones' are, and you know a 20 can never begin to be enough. So what if she hangs on to the $ instead? What if I find a way to fix the truck and help this little floozie find a job? What if she gets her kids back and a place to stay? What if when her OM gets out of prison she's in a position to help him unlearn what he's learned in jail and get out of 'the life' too? Of course, you know exactly what you good folks here in this conference call all those 'what if's': hope. (Yah, Dave, and what if you just happen to be on the up side of an up and down?) (Stop thinking that!)

Gotta go see somebody that died tonight. First time I've ever intentionally gone to see a dead person. Even Dad.  Nothing I can do, Her Highness wants me with her, and "ours is not to wonder why, ours is but to do or".. cry, yeah, that's the ticket. I'm sorry for coming here and tapping my keys so much. I'm ignoring a couple of dozen customers while doing so, but it seems to help me, so you're not being bored for nothing.

[Jade59]

Hey Dave, I'm sorry about your friend passing.  And you're never boring.  These forums help me a lot too and many responsibilities have been going by the wayside lately because of it.  It's a bit addictive.  Helping yourself, helps others and vice versa.  You are understanding what the forum is about.  

Btw.....you think I didn't know your true intentions about the Xanax?  I didn't just fall off the turnip truck you know. :-)    That's exactly why I was a bit distressed to hear someone replied to your question privately.  It sounds like you've got a handle on things for now.  You're doing much better.  I wish your original post wasn't deleted though because some day, you might want to look back and see how far you've come.  

Take care....  

[AnnaE]

Ask your doc about ambien cr. I recommend it, if it is good for you.

[Jade59]

Well at least your "what ifs" are positive.  Most people playing the "what if" game tend towards the more negative side.  And Dave, don't worry about how many people you have time to reach out to here or if you're saying the right thing.  First, this is a depression forum and EVERYONE here suffers from depression so it makes sense that more people might be down than up and there would be more people with questions than people with answers.  I see that too.  Reach out to the ones who you can relate to the most and hope that the next person will relate to the person you had to pass up.  If you look at the forum as a whole, then it's easy to become overwhelmed with wanting to help everyone. You seem like a kind and caring person.  Very genuine.  You have a lot to gain(you say so yourself) and you have a lot to offer here.    

Who knows, maybe this gal you're talking to will change her life around.  And all because someone like you cared enough to help her.  

Hope you're feeling well today and I'll talk with you tomorrow.  It's late...gotta shut down.

[el_dave]

O-u-t-s-t-a-n-d-i-n-g suggestion!  I got some ambien (not cr) from the street and it did put me to sleep. I've been trying to cut down on the sleepy stuff, last night did only the 2 oz nyquil, slept 1200-0330 but then laid awake staring at the back of my eyelids until 0600. CR.. betcha that's the answer! You're gold!

[el_dave]

Yeah, is it a case of 'ya can't bs an old bser'? But the person who told me 'no' gave me hard scientific data to prove that you just can't do yourself that way. Of course I can't be sure they weren't just feeding me toxicity facts and there may be another unmentioned aspect, but they definitely made me doubt it enough to put that idea way, way on the back burner. The rest of you folks took over, I got myself a project (I honestly believe that girl may have what it takes to get out of 'the life'). Went to a 'viewing' yesterday, of a dead friend. Better friend to the 'Pick than me, but still.. she was all laid out in her coffin, all made up, so peaceful, and so, so very permanent. Why rush something inevitable? That's what she seemed to be telling me. She was a spicy, saucy lady, just my type, and I'm listening. What really bothers me is that so many of the super depressed people in here are so young, and when I think of the previous two times I'd been brought to the brink of self destruction and resisted it, and all the GOOD things that have happened in the years since, and even the BAD things, I'm so glad I didn't act on what seemed to be such a need at the moment. I want to take all those young people and.. I don't know.. just somehow help them.

Yah, I'm genuine. I'm not living any more lies.

Talking to her won't do the trick. I have to find ways to scrape together the money to get her mobile again. One or two bills top, it wouldn't be too hard except I have a number of folks depending on me at least partially for financial help and I can't find a job. So 'I make mine on eBay'. I don't know if anyone else here makes their living there, but it's a truly, incredibly unfair system that treats sellers like dirt. Very difficult for a fighter to accept... and very (yup!) depressing. But if I can get this young lady mobile again, and if she should end up getting her kids back, I'd feel pretty derned good about that. And if I get her mobile again and she sells the truck for rock, I'd feel badly for her, but I'd know I tried. But nothing would be possible if I'd gone into the deep woods and pulled the trigger.

[xanweaner]

Re: your question about SSRI's - yes, Paxil is an SSRI. As I said, some people (like myself) just cannot tolerate that class of drugs, for whatever reason.

Since you had a flashback with Remeron, there is always the old standards - the tricyclic antidepressant family of drugs. They have a long history - and have helped many people.
It sounds like you're already getting good results from good ole "talk therapy", which is excellent news!!!!!

I'm still looking for a therapist that I can afford - I prefer to see ph.d's and they tend to cost a bit more, so for now, it seems like this forum is my therapy for now.  

Glad you got good results from Ambien CR - luckily for me, Ambien 10 mg. works quite effectively. I'm looking forward, however, to weaning myself off once I finish my xanax weaning.

Hope you're having a good day today...
-xan-

[el_dave]

Well, I got out of bed this morning reluctantly, but only because I didn't get much sleep last night 'cuz of trying to cut back on all that sleep stuff. I didn't try the Ambien CR yet, I see the VA lady Friday and I'm going to ask if she thinks they might give me some. But some time ago I got some of the same Ambien you use and it did let me get to sleep, but not stay asleep. So the CR is a great suggestion. But my deal is that sleep or no sleep, I feel okay. You guys made me think, and in thinking I sought, and in seeking I found. I think perhaps all I really needed was to be needed. Still have the same old problems, still no fire in the Ol' Lady, still no possibility of permanance in my sweetling, still body bags coming back and the VN KIAs are still turning over in their graves, but somebody needs me. It seems to make a lot of difference, unless this is just an unusually long high on the roller coaster.  You know how it is with this thing, a 'high' only means not sad... but it's 10,000 times better than where I was. For the moment, I'm thinking perhaps forget the antidepression medication entirely and just seek a better way to sleep (perhaps that Ambien CR). I'm not too sharp about these things, but I think it was you folks here that made the difference, watching you help folks, amazed by the beauty of your caring, and from that coming to the conclusion that it would be better to try to be of use to someone than to be dead. Right now I'd pay to stay alive. Good work, and thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Can't you get the therapist for nothing or a heavy discount? Unless CA is very different from FL, perhaps the Icepick may have some suggestions about that. Here, if you truly can't afford it, you WILL get it. That's her job.

[xanweaner]

I would agree with your decision as to using a sleep aid vs. taking an AD. Recent evidence is pointing that in mild - moderate depressions, AD don't always prove to be the most effective. If I hadn't suffered a serious anxiety/depressive episode, I wouldn't have taken one either.

Re: therapy - I could probably go to someone with a Master's vs. Ph.D., but I prefer the additional training. And, so far, everyone out here is charging between $90 - $100/session who has a Ph.D., and that's the low end of their sliding scale. I don't want to use insurance because I don't want my medical records accessible to them. HIPPA or not - once you put it through insurance, they can request the entire record anytime they want. And, your record can follow you everywhere.

Again, you are so lucky that you clicked with the VA lady - that makes all of the difference in therapy. You have to have the chemistry as well as respecting the person you're seeing.

Glad you're here...and I still think that you'd do quite well in a VA support group, but I'll stop pushing that idea....sorry....

Good luck with your Ambien - I can't wait to wean off of mine.....soon.....hopefully....

[Jade59]

I too, think you made a wise decision by sticking with the sleep aid instead of an AD.  At least for the time being.  I was on AD's from 1980 to 2004 and it never really did much good.  I have situational depression too, and once I was able to come to terms about the "situation" I felt a lot better and the AD's were just.....well, depressing me because I didn't need them.

Lack of sleep can make even the healthiest person feel like ****!

[xanweaner]

Yep...sure do understand the situational depression....all too well. That's what is the cause of mine, too.
Good sleep is definitely good for the soul...

[el_dave]

Geez, if that was "mild to moderate" then I sure hope I never go through "severe". Well, that wouldn't be survivable, I don't think, "Situational" depression, what a good term. But I've given up trying to understand, it's obviously too complex for me. I know about resistors and capacitors, not neurons. Anyway, still no "joy" here, but no crushing weight either, and that's good enough. Y'all know I'm a know-nothing, but I have to say, I'm not sure that the point is the severity of the depression that may define whether or not an AD is the best idea, but rather whether the depression is situational or whatever the other term would be. You know.. chemical imbalance problems. I'm probably sounding like an idiot, but it seems to me that to give a person a drug to combat situational depression is counter productive. Some of the elements may not be things you can do nothing about, such as in my own case. I had no idea of my craving to be needed, just to have a reason to be here. No, finding a project hasn't brought me back to being the happy go lucky fella from before, but nor am I unloading my .38 and lovingly caressing the rounds. These SSRI and other AD things aren't like a good snort of smack, they don't make you happy. They just make you "normal" or closer to it, right? So if one of those things I tried hadn't been bad itself, I'd be here taking them, and have no reason to try to find any possible solutions to "situations". I've considered that perhaps the SWs and psychiatrists continue probing for the situational cause of depression, but how effective can that really be if SSRI's or whatever are masking the depression? Am I making any sense?

Xan, I gotcha on the records thing. H can't find any loopholes, either, but I'll ask her to check with the firm's lawyers when she can.

We have sort of an informal VA support group thingie that goes on in the waiting rooms. It's not guided, though.

I caught H's cold. Incidentally, for they who may be tracking such things, I took my full complement of sleep aids (2 oz nyquil, 1 sonata, 2 OTC pills, 1 mg Xanax)  last night at 0900 and slept from 1030 to 0700. Awoke miserable only because of the cold, no wanting to keep sleeping so as not to have to face the day.

Thank you again, people. You really are golden.

[xanweaner]

Severe depression is when you are so sick, you can barely get out of bed...you barely drag yourself to eat a meal that someone has prepared for you, and you don't bathe, brush your teeth..sometimes for days. The effort that is required is too much..your brain is muddled. You are bedridden.....it is very serious.

I'm certainly not discounting how serious suicidal ideation is, either...as that is a very horrible aspect of depression, too. So, that would probably fall into the category of serious depression.

Certainly, I don't have a medical degree, just past training as a pharmaceutical sales rep. who sold an AD and  an antipsychotic agent years ago. This was before the advent of SSRI's, too. And, also before the huge increase in the usage of AD's and antipsychotics.  So much has changed.

But for you, Dave, you have to stop cocktailing this night-time regimen. Get a rx for Ambien CR or something,  and stop this drug combination. We want your funny posts to continue here....ok?? So, put your comittment in writing that you'll stop and go get that script, please...

Situational depression is when the situation itself (like death of a loved one, loss of job, serious illness, etc.) brings on the depression. And, you're right, the AD is supposed to help you function during this time of suffering, until hopefully, the situation improves.

Hope your cold improves quickly and that you are feeling your old peppy self soon...
-xan-

[Jade59]

Situational.......like the fact that you love your wife, but can no longer be intimate.  Like that.  

And like xan says, even though your nightime cocktail helps you sleep, it's causing a negative effect in the long run.

Hope your cold gets better soon ♥

[Jade59]

Hey, it's Friday.  You must have had your visit with the VA lady.  How did that go and did you get the Ambian CR?

[xanweaner]

YEP - good one, FMXSMKR....a good nudge in the right direction for Dave. We're all waiting here...with your good news, hopefully...

[el_dave]

My VA lady is leaving me! Waaaah! Waaaaah! My VA lady is going back into private practice. She wants to set me up with someone else. I told her it had to be someone as pretty as she is. Ha, I even made a VA lady blush!  Anyway, I'm just getting the lady to a point where she's beginning to understand that the 'pick and I have a relationship far removed from Oprah (IOW Sweetling is NOT causing problems) and now she's moving on. I feel like she'll never be able to complete her Zen training without me to balance the rational side of existence.

However, I completely forgot the sleeping medication thing. She always wants to talk about my Sweetling, I think the VA lady still suspects that at the base of it all I'm "in love" with the one I can't keep. Shucks, that's just not the case. Sometimes I'm not sure which of us is counselling which. Of course she instantly thought she knew what my problem was when she found I have a 39 year old perfectly formed girlfriend and a round 55 year old wife, and it's taken a while to get her to be able to see things from our perspective.

Of those signs of "serious" depression you listed I had only one, but that's "situational too. Not bathing? That hot water is too good no matter how badly one feels. I turn it so hot most folks can't stand it, and I'd crawl to it if I had to, regardless of physical or mental problems. Not eating? I don't eat anyway, and whenever I do it's whatever's easiest to pick up. Teeth brushing? When you keep your teeth in a jar you needn't do that. The not getting out of bed is the one I can sure identify with.. I've spent as many as six hours trying to get out of the sack and face the day, but the idea was just so terrible I'd try but lay back down. It was bad. I'd caress the bullets, load, unload, it gave a lot of comfort. I'd console myself with the thought that one day we all die, this won't be forever. I'd concoct schemes to off myself in a way that the Icepick could collect some kind of insurance, and that would give me comfort. Death seemed such a kindness. I used to have ups and downs, and for a while there there were no more ups. Folks, it seems to me that sitting here right now, looking forward to a visit by my Sweetling Monday morning, WAY behind in my work because of that long period under water (meaning busy busy busy lots to do), having ridden in the sun half the day, I remember the weight of depression but don't feel it a bit. Won't be really happy until Monday morning, but Monday's coming. The young lady I wanted to help has disappeared.. she knows I'll know if she's been smoking rock, must be on a binge.. but it doesn't depress me. So I'm really a bit confused at the moment. The only thing that's changed is that before I wasn't in here with you good people, plus I've been having some really interesting conversations with Jehovah's Witnesses, so to my simple mind one thing or the other brought me up. I don't think it was the JWs, it's fun to philosophize with people who think so radically differently than I, but I doubt that's behind my "miracle recovery". Do you think perhaps I'm just going insane? Dunno, I only know that not feeling that crushing weight of despair is a-ok in my book. The VA lady booked me for her last day with the VA, on 23APR. I'll remember to ask about the Ambien CR then. In the meantime I'm "riding this high" (because relatively it is) for all it's worth.

Have you folks ever heard of such a thing just dissipating of it's own accord? What if it never comes back? Can I still come here?

The situations causing my 'situational depression' haven't changed. My spicy tomato is still a leaf of lettuce. My sweet Princess is still not really mine, and still can never really be. People are still sending their sons and daughters to die for nothing. People are still going into the forests to kill animals that have no defenses. Television is still rotting the minds of millions. They're still not hiring people over 50 in this town. eBay is still a vicious tyrannical greedy make-believe Disneyland, and I still have to eke out a living there. I could go on and on, but you get my drift.

Can chemical imbalances ebb and flow like a tide?

Whatcha think? Is an old fool setting himself up for a long fall? Yesterday I felt much better, today I even feel 'normal' (well, as close to 'normal' as I ever get, anyway). I would very much appreciate your opinions on this, I find it very curious.

By the way, I'm not disregarding your advice. For the time being, I'm only doing my 'cocktail' every other night. Which is why I'm up at 0145. Instead of going in there trying to sleep when I'm not going to be able to, I'll just work these computers until the wee small hours. That should help, right?

[xanweaner]

Yes, depression can go away on its own...they say that psychotherapy can be very effective. This may be what is going on with you...
But, if you and the VA lady hit it off so well, could see her in private practice? Or do you prefer the VA due to financial reasons? (can certainly understand that...)

Be happy that the "black cloud" has moved on....you might just be on your road to recovery and feeling like your ole' self. Certainly, if you stop the nighttime cocktail, you might get even more improvement.

All I know is this.....the more I know, the more I realize that I don't know much at all. I'm constantly learning all the time...especially about mental health issues, as I've uncovered some really great psychiatrists in my research who confirm many of my  theories I've had about drugging up children, teens, and adults. If you're ever bored, check out Dr. Loren Mosher and Dr. Peter Breggin - remarkable psychiatrists.

Have a peaceful night....try some valerian root tea - can be very helpful for sleep...

[kcdem]

I have just read all the posts on this thread.Dave you have a great writing style and a terrific sense of humor. However as you know you are a mess, as am I. You are all over the place. If you do not have severe depression than I am George W. Bush..(my God that is a horrific thought). Suicidal ideation (sitting in bed for hours caressing bullets) is not the act of someone with situaltional depression....period; unless it was only for a short time after you experienced a traumatic event. Trauma... like combat, wife cheating, divorce, death of a parent or child, watching a W speech about the economy,,ETC.

SSRIs would probably make the insomnia worse. Remeron is great but you do get VERY vivid dreams allthough mine were generally happy VERY weird ones.. Nyquil is of course alcohol with a couple other things in it. You may as well just down the med cocktail with a double shot of bourbon.

I would try the other class as others have mentioned, unless you no longer have that doomed feeling.That dread the day feeling is NOT even remotely normal (what ever that is). The last 7 years, hell the last 1,000 years is enough to make all but the most ignorant among us depressed, but most get by because they know this is their only go round and they want to be happy. Thinking of death as sweet serenity and bullet caressing need attention, otherwise you will just keep gettin what your gettin; and even though you write it in a very funny thought provoking, blatantly self honest way, it sounds very NOT fun and very NOT content.I wish you the best and hope you take REAL action and stop just spinning your wheels. I did LOL many times, but overall the truth is obvious.

Keep hope alive
kcdem

[RCA7591]

"it's obviously too complex for me. I know about resistors and capacitors, not neurons"

^quote


Dave,

So, you're an electronics man, are you? So am I. I've been building/repairing/restoring communications receivers, transmitters, and high-fidelity audio amplifiers since I was five years old. Turned it into a business at the age of fourteen, long before I ever had a degree. Got my FCC license at the age of sixteen.

Those neurons in your brain aren't atypical to that of an electrolytic capacitor. The 'lytic works on the principals of an electro-chemical reaction, and those neurons in your brain operate on much the same principle. Take Xanax for example - Xanax agonizes (adds to) the neurotransmitter GABA(a), which is the major inhibitory neurotransmitter of the central nervous system. GABA possesses a pre-synaptic and post-synaptic neuron, along with an ion channel (chemical component) in between. The 'lytic has two plates (much like the pre/post synaptic neurons), and an electrolyte (much like the ion channel).

Xanax works by blocking the reputake of GABA at the pre-synaptic neuron, thus, more GABA is available at the post-synaptic neuron to inhibit the nervous system (resulting in sedation, hypnosis, etc), and the electrolytic capacitors works by storing a voltage potential between a space charge, and increasing the applied voltage increases the charge. Eventually, the Xanax will lose it effectiveness resulting in rebound insomnia, just as the electrolytic capacitor will develop leakage, turn resistive, and fail to hold its rated charge. Both lose their effectiveness over the long-term.

Taking your sleep cocktail every night is comparable to operating a Hallicrafters S-40A with a faulty electrolytic filter capacitor (say, a 20/20/20/20 uF @ 450V FP type made by Mallory). Sure, it may operate sufficiently for some "X" amount of time, but ultimately, you're running on borrowed time and the sucker will spew its guts (you know how pesky those electrolytics are). Initially, selectivity/sensitivity may suffer of the MF-HF bands due to capacitor DC leakage/loss of capacitance, and before you know it, the 120-cycle ripple from the full-wave rectifier affects the performance on every band, decreasing the common-mode rejection ratio. The 5Y3 rectifier tube's plates begin to glow cherry red, and the fuse pops. Time for a replacement cap.

Unlike the multi-section capacitor in the Hallicrafter's receiver that can be replaced and normal operation restored, the same can't be said for the human mind. The capacitors will always leak in the case of anxiety or depression, and there will be many up's and down's. The only currently available option is to tack new capacitors onto the old faulty ones. As an electronic's man, you already know that's not a very good "fix", but that's the best that modern psychiatry has to offer in the way of pharmacology at the present time.

When depression is severe, and the SSRI class of drugs have failed, the second best option are the Tricyclics, and, in particular, Tofranil (Imipramine). Tofranil bypasses the faulty capacitors (neurons) and makes new ones. The effect compared to the SSRI's, however, is far more subtle and natural.

Electronics is one hobby that I find to be very effective for taking my mind off of negativity (in my case, anxiety and depression, surrounding my health). I like the vintage tube stuff, mainly hi-fi amplifiers these days. Remember H.H. Scott, Fisher, Marantz, Dynaco? Good stuff, and usually is such a state of disarray that I don't have time to sit and *think*. Hunting down the elusive, noisy carbon-composition resistor requires some critical attention to detail! Perhaps you could try something similar.

Best to you,

Ryan

[el_dave]

12 hours sleep last night. Trying to get rid of this cold before the cold weather comes back tonight. It'll be bad for the next few days. Folks come down on me hard for complaining about the weather, but if I want to freeze I'll go to New York where they're prepared for the cold and where 30 or 40 degree temp swings in a day aren't so numerous. Don't you find it interesting when folks respond to a gripe with the lovely observation that others have got it worse? Like that's supposed to make you feel better? I'd respond better to 'don't worry, the sun is shining through whispering palm fronds in Luquillo".

I have no money. When I do have money I give it to people who need it an awful lot more than I do. That makes me a wonderful, caring, giving person who will probably get St. Pete's job at the gates of heaven. You see, I want everyone to love me because I give away my money. So the VA lady is gone after that next visit, but knows what I need. I need a very pretty young (relatively) therapist I can want to go see just 'cause she's easy on the eyes. If her skills are such, as the VA lady's are, to get me past that point, then I'll have lucked out again. Well, not luck.. the VA lady is choosing her replacement. It will simply be further evidence of her skill.

And of course I don't really think I can buy my way into heaven. Heck, I don't have faith in any heaven outside of Luquillo Beach or Canto de Piedras. Some of us give away our money because we've done things in our pasts that gnaw away at our peace of mind. Me, I even sell my worldy goods to have the money to give, but it's not because I'm Jesus returned, it's because if I don't and the 50/50 chance of God's existence comes heads up, I want to have at least SOMETHING to point to when He looks me in the eye and says, "Payback is a m.." uh, "Payback is a b.." that is, "Payback is hard", yeah, that's the ticket.

And that's not even entirely a lie, there's some truth to it. I'm not afraid of God, every time they talk about God wanting to be feared I feel like insulting them back since (if He exists) He's not here (incarnate, anyway) to defend himself. In reality, people spout "it's better to give than to receive" without really believing it, but once they start giving past what's comfortable they find it's better than anything else they could do with the money, and.. this is the important part.. brings them more feelgood. And I know you are kind and wise enough to do me the honor of understanding that it's not because of any "goodness" in me, it's only that I've seen too much of the other side, but there's no way I'd fork over the sort of money the VA lady would ask, especially not if I'd have to pass the homeless shelter on the way to her office. That would be what I call "living society's lie". Sometimes I'm afraid of being diagnosed a dirty pinko commie.

That was a lot of writing over a simple question, wasn't it? Don't worry, I can get worse!

Ma'am (Please! One of my very best friends on this planet is seven years old, and I *always* call her 'Ma'am"!) I'm not fibbing about only doing my 'cocktail' every other night. Night before last I only did 1 oz of Nyquil.. I don't think I did anything else at all.. still got 3.5 hours, but for me 3.5 hours is really worse than none at all.  And one way or the other I will get to that Ambien CR stuff and see if I could perhaps sleep every night without having to put myself out. Jeez, imagine such a thing.

"All I know is this.....the more I know, the more I realize that I don't know much at all.".. the first step to wisdom. In that statement you give an experienced person cause to have faith in your statements of what you do know. Like that depression can dissipate. I believe that means it also can come back. Right now finances are horrible, and I need $2,900 for a bike I saw. (No, it's not for me, and there are very good reasons why it has to be water cooled and able to reliably do regular 500 mile trips in the heat carrying like 400 or 500 pounds without overheating.. $2,900 is a GREAT price). But the chances are getting it are slim, and there are others who must be placated. No way to do so, can only work at it. Cold weather is coming, and I so detest that. My 'project' lady friend was last seen street sweeping, so she is definitely on an extended rock binge. The body bags are still coming back. The 'pick is still.. well, you know. Sweetling will be here (Lordy, Lordy) but there's still the knowledge that afterwards she'll have to go back to where there's no appreciation for her at all. Yet I'm not unhappy, I feel no despair, and if you pull a gun I'll run. Mystery!

Okay, so I've got Valerian and Roseroot on my shopping list, and I appreciate those suggestions, which will certainly be experimented with. Perhaps I'll just get the Ambien CR on the streets this week, why wait? I'll check it out. Meantime, the Icepick says mowing the lawn would have great therapeutic value, especially since if I do I won't wake up tomorrow morning with a lawn mower shoved.. well, never mind that. Anyway, she convinced me that it would be lots of fun to mow the lawn.

[el_dave]

Perusing around, I saw your picure with your own sweetling behind you. Your sweetling is also your wife, right? Man, I'll bet you don't get out of the house much. As a writer, I'm sure you recognize a frustrated writer here. If I had the skill to convery the things I've learned (okay, okay, the things that have been jackhammered into me) it would be a good thing. I sure envy your ability. I notice you listed combat as a trauma, is that from personal experience? Not that it matters, I was just thinking of your Remeron causing vivid dreams, if you were in combat and the Remeron didn't bring it back in one form or another, as it did to me, it would be something to add to the ol' pro and con tally sheet. My dreams are almost always the same, basically. In my dream world there is no jealousy, possessiveness, greed or hatred. Events transpire, but aren't the result of those ugly emotions that define real life. As you might imagine, anything that takes those dreams away is unacceptable.

You mustn't knock president bush, he has brought me closer to having faith that there is a God than anyone else. After all, if there is a satan, there must be a God, and if ol' Georgie ain't Beezlebub ( I know, spelling, spelling) then I ain't Dave. I was just sickened at that furor over war records, with people arguing about whether that Carey fellow did or did not do a specific thing on the boats on the river. There's no argument that he was on those boats on that river. I wasn't on the boats, but I was back in base a number of times when they'd come back in, and I saw what sometimes came back. So did every guy who was there, including the ones going back on the boats. The fact that the man got on the boats, saw, and went again is all that needs to be said. I was put in for a silver star for heroism myself, having run out of a safe bunker to lead a group of Navy guys through hell back to the haven I'd run out of. Direct hit on a major ammo dump. See http://www.emilydd.com/dong_tam/Ammo_Dump_Explosion/vc_hit_ammo_dump.htm if you're interested. The recommendation said I was over on the Army side, away from the initial major explosion, and I ran TO the thing, immense fireball in the air, ordnance still detonating all around, incoming still coming in, and led those guys to safety. I'd be overwhelmed by my own heroism if I didn't know the facts. Rocket City (**** Tam) took incoming more nights than not, it was a nervous place to be. At that time, there were restrictions on presence of Army personnel on the Navy side without orders. They had good weed on the Navy side. In reality, when that ammo dump took that hit, and the entire sewer complex of New York City hit the fan, I was very close to it. What I did was run like a jackrabbit for the Army side where bunkers weren't flattened, and on the way, happened to yell "follow me" to a bunch of Navy guys whose bunker had been messed up. There was no deviation from my flight to safety. There was no heroism. But since it was contrary to orders for me to be toking joints with the sailors and I appeared out of nowhere yelling 'follow me' the Army made something out of it that it wasn't. I had to do some fast and slippery talking to get out of that nomination without getting myself into trouble, but fast and slippery was my specialty. My point is that in one direction or another, those things can be so distorted by facts and lack of facts, and I think using such material to argue for or against someone to lead the country is silly and destructive. That Carrey or however you spell it was on the boats. If I want a warrior for a president that's all I'd need to know.

I know this isn't a political forum, but I MUST state my idea here. Last election, I voted for the first time in my life. I voted against Bush, of course, and I didn't vote for the other guy. He got my check mark, but warrior or no, it was a vote for 'the better of two evils'. I really believe there are more people voting for 'the better of two evils' than we know. I believe there should be a choice for 'no vote- no candidate deserving of it', and that if a certain percentage of votes came back that way the entire thing should be chucked and those candidates removed. I believe that until there are candidates put up that are personaly worth voting for to a significant portion of the population, an election should be invalid. I realize that it's complex, but I can't believe it's not doable. I also think candidates might be 'drafted', kicking and screaming "WHY ME?" from the ranks of successful business people and such.  Sure, I prove how naive and ridiculous I am to have such an idea, but if better minds than mine that have actual, real desire to improve things for our children would give it serious consideration, I truly belive they might find merit in the concept. The more a person desires power, the less it should be available to them. But that's just me being me.

Fear of abandonment? Do you think guys like you grow on trees? Of course I have no idea of the specifics that might lead to such a fear in your circumstances, but if your Ol' Lady (yes, I am entitled to use that term) gets upset when you have fear of abandonment she may be justified. I haven't miraculously been turned into someone who has a clue, but my gut reaction from that picture of her standing behind you, from her expression, is that such fears are unfounded. I sure hope so, anyway, that's quite a doll you have there.

Thanks very much for the advice, you folks have made me pretty much commit to finding a better way to sleep. Thank you for helping, and if there's anything I might be able to do in return, just say the word.

[el_dave]

You know when that old Hallicrafters has been sitting on the shelf too long you reform the electrolytic by appling power slowly and turning it up. Since I don't want a xanax addiction, I never make that a regular part of my 'cocktail', and unless the need for sleep is desperate (there are old bikers and there are sleepy bikers, but there are no old, sleepy bikers.. certainly not in a college town with lots of cellphone service) never make the xanax part of the recipe two nights in a row. Is that doing any good, or am I kidding myself?

A buddy in Germany had a 5L14N  he bought shipped here 'cuz the vendor wouldn't do international trade. Man, it's hard to send that on. Do you have the Tek AN 'standard audio tests with the 5L14N'? It's very good. Even if you don't need it, you might want it to pass on to others. Lemme know,  I could set you up FTP access to the smaller text searchable version (PDF). The high res version is like 340MB, but if you're doing any teaching or anything and might want to print them I could send it on CD. Documentation R Us these days, so let me know if there's anything you need, we may have it.

In NYC I was a bench tech for all the good stuff you mentioned. Man, is that stuff beautiful or what? I've partial hearing loss since I was 19 years old, and I need good, clean power and equalization to be able to properly hear my beloved 'house music' and merengues.  Incidentally, a buddy of mine recently found a Marantz amp in a dumpster. Geez, that's the day to buy a lotto ticket, his planets were definitely in alignment!

The Icepick is muttering something about wrapping a lawn mower around my neck, so I guess I'll have to be quick, but I sure appreciate your explaining the mechanism behind xanax. Also, your comment recarding the tricyclic agents, on top of other recommendations for same, have convinced me not to shelve the AD concept entirely. I'll wait to see if the depression comes back first, though.. at this time it seems to have gone the way of a politician's promises!

I'm afraid I sold most of my gear, only have a TS-440S and IC-3200A left. It was for a very good purpose, though, gave an Angel help for her children. Things like that keep getting in the way of my bench time, but I do know exactly what you mean.. sure wish I had an ol' KWM-2A to nurse back to health right now! For now, 73, OM, es BCNU down the log (straight CW here). Tnks much for the ideas, and lemme know what you think about my every-other-day (at most) use of the xanax.. are my 'lytics still as likely to pop?

[xanweaner]

This will be a quickie reminder.....NO DRUG COCKTAILING TONIGHT FOR YOU!!  
I'll post more later...
Oh, in case I forget to mention it....you sure can write up a storm. Do you type fast, too?

[el_dave]

No choice last night. Had a date with heaven on earth this morning, and at my age one must rest before participating in strenuous physical activity if one is to convince one's sleek young exercize partner that the trip was worth it. Yet one must also still be sleepy enough to hold heaven for a couple of hours, dozing, before partaking of it's delights. Gee, I like the way I said that. Mustn't think about it, for me it's like Chinese food.

Gotta work on that Ambien CR idea! Unfortunately, right now I'm farther behind in my business than I've ever been, and I am forced to turn this machine off and go to the work machines and get to producing . No choice. Do the house music is UP and I'm reluctantly outa here for some hours. I love this place, I think that other than being with Sweetling this place is where I like to be best.

BCNU guys in a bit.

P.S. I was laughing my hiney off when I saw that the system had converted the first word in (letter after c, letter after n, letter after m, letter after f) Tam in my communication above regarding the ammo dump explosion to "****". In Mexico there's a drink called "chicha". I only wrote that to see if the system thinks Mexican or Puerto Rican is the "real" Spanish.

-El overworked, underpaid Dave

[el_dave]

P.S.P.S. Yeah, real fast. One hand has the nerves crossed across a couple of fingers from an old injury, so when learning to type on RTTY machines, which required a real PUSH of the keys, I hadda do it two fingers. So I type probably faster than most two fingered typists do. The extra half hour between messages is all spent trying to locate and correct typos.

-E.D.

[xanweaner]

You sound like you're feeling good...I hope you can get the Ambien CR so the drug cocktail will be put away for good. If no Ambien CR - remember, Valerian Root. I drank it in the tea form, but there might be capsules, too.

When do you go to the VA again so we can hear about your new therapist?

I just started from next phase of Xanax Weaning - it's Day 1.
Let's hope that the few weeks or so go smoothly - I really want to be off this soon.
Then, it's time to wean off my Ambien. Hopefully, the Remeron will take care of my sleep needs...

Have a great day today, E.D.!!!

[el_dave]

Am jumping in here while burner does it's job on product, between discs. I think perhaps valerian first, ambien second? For me, I mean. I'm busy locating a source for Roseroot by the truckload for the other. Might even hit the health food store this afternoon when I run the outgoing orders to the post office. Would the capsules be more potent than the tea? Is there a toomuchtoit or could I wash down valerian capsules with valerian tea? Insufficient time to expain right now, but my tried and true 'cocktail' has been working TOO well and I wanted to ask some specifics.. will do that later.

I don't know anything about stepping down off legal things like xanax, but I can get someone off narcotics pretty quickly. I think xanax is harder, though. Do you do anything besides help people like me to lessen the withdrawals? Or are you doing it so slowly you've no withdrawals at all?

I think it's like the 23rd for my last session with the VA lady. The new VA lady, unless she's forewarned, will be sometime after that. Just watch the papers, if you see a newspaper article saying a VA therapist was running down the street flapping her arms yelling "They don't pay me enough for this!!!" then you know I've got me a new victim.

Shucks. Back to work. Burner beeped.

[xanweaner]

HAHA - good one about the VA story...I'll be on the look out for it...

Re: the valerian root and capsules - I can't say for sure...I only drank the tea and it was effective. This was after I had weaned off Ambien several years ago. You might want to talk to someone who's knowledgeable at the health food store or do a google search on it. Maybe there's something on this site, too.

My Xanax weaning started with my desire to stop taking it. I know that it's incredibly addicting, and I also knew that I couldn't stay on it for months and months, so I told my pdoc that it was time to get off. Interesting that he didn't suggest it - just further validates that the field of psychiatry has become one big "pill pushing machine"...

And so, this whole ordeal started in October. I admit - I may have dragged this out a bit too long, but again, who knows? Every step I take is tough, but so far, I haven't had to increase my dose when my intention was to decrease it.

No matter how you cut the xanax, you are going to face periods of discomfort unless you supplement or transition to another benzo like Klonopin or Valium. Since I didn't want to take a replacement, I chose to tough it out. There's no question that it's a rocky ride because so much of the withdrawal is psychological with some minor physical stuff throw in. Since I've weaned slowly, the physical stuff is minimized. It's all been a gradual taper...that's the key to overall success.

So, here I am....nearly in the final stretch----a few more laps to go, and hopefully, I'm xanfree. I've done this two times before, but it was so much easier. Not sure why - maybe the ole' brain is getting worn out from the benzo usage - who knows?

And this forum has helped, too...it's a useful form of distraction and a good support for me. I do enjoy offering whatever I can to help others, and I've also learned quite a bit - especially from Ryan on the anxiety forum. He's amazing!! He's going to make one damned fine physician someday, unless they beat him up in residency training, which does tend to change many great doctors in the process.

So, Dave, take it from me - find a replacement for the xanax now before it gets a bit trickier. You'll be so much happier in the long run.

Day 1 is just about winding down, and so far, nothing earth-shattering has happened thus far. My 10 mg. of Ambien will take me through the night, hopefully, and tomorrow starts Day 2. It tends to get a big trickier then...

'til then....take care and have a great night,
-xan-

[el_dave]

Do you have to use the ambien now because of going off the xanax? What I mean is, why didn't you stick with the Valerian tea?

Having, over the years, "weaned myself" off crack (only one way to do that: cold turkey.. there is no other), alcohol, heroin (almost said skag, but who wants to sound like the junkie he is?), hydro, then oxy, I've some idea of the factors that make things difficult to get off of. Xanax is a scary one, because it's principle 'you need me' mechanism is in the mind, just like crack. The difference being that it seems almost impossible to me to quit xanax cold turkey if you've a source for more. I know you're in a hurry, naturally, but if I were you I wouldn't consider dragging it out since October as dragging it out at all, not from what I've read. Seems to me you're doing a bit better than average.

I suppose it's not difficult to understand why I'd like so much to avoid mind altering chemicals like remeron and mirtapazine (well, yes, and xanax, if anxiety were any part of my "problems"). Most druggies that get off (get off drugs, I mean, not get off on drugs) do so because they got busted, or in some other way hit rock bottom and ended up in a rehab or jail or something. I've never seen the inside of a rehab, nor been busted (for drugs.. because of drugs, yes, but for drugs, no.. and I escaped custody before being formally arrested, and did spend the required seven years out of the country, so no jail either.. ain't dope wonderful?). I got out of 'the life' strictly because I was tired of it. So if I'm so tired of drugs that something as erotically exciting (remember who you're talking to) as crack, or something as happy-making as opiates is no longer appealing, the idea of addicting myself to a drug that doesn't even get you high seems.. unwanted. So I'm anxious to try the valerian tea and/or capsules thing. When you'd do this tea, how big was the hit? A regular coffee cup? In my case, that's about a pint. I'd rely on the health food store professional's instructions, but around here, the eldest health food store employee will be the manager, who will most likely be in his or her early twenties, and though they'll have real desire to be of good assistance, the experience factor will be lacking. I pick on you because you've actually done it.

Unfortunately, I'm not one of those folks who doesn't get enough sleep without help. Without knocking myself cold, I get no sleep whatsoever. Zero, ziltch, and that goes for four days in a row (the longest I've tried before giving up). I guess my question to you would be if, in your experience and from what you've heard, there is such a thing as "too much" valerian tea and/or capsules, or is it like vitamin C?

Unfortunately, New York is vacationing in North Florida again.  El Dave be an island boy, I'm happiest dressed just short of the point where the cops stop thinking about arresting me for indecent exposure and actually do so, and I feel best when the temperature is above 90 degrees. So being 40 degrees out there right now, it's very difficult to face the 60 mph wind chill factor for me (no car, remember). Otherwise I'd go get some right this minute (never got out last night... too many eBay questions.. on eBay, for every sale, there are half a dozen "questions from members").

I musta missed something.. day 1 of? You mean weaning to 0? If so, outstanding! Don't fear regressing, you don't have to do that. Remember, all you have to control are your hands. You needn't control your desires, only your hands. But you won't need to take it to that level anyway, because who wants to be a junkie, legal or not?

Well, gotta go. My Sweetling couldn't make it this morning, but for the best of reasons. Hubby is getting a daytime job, and she has to go get stuff he'll need. Since Sweetling works mostly nights and the kids are both in school now, guess who will get more time in heaven-on-earth? I still have the missionaries coming to discuss philosophy, though. One of them is pretty derned good looking, so I'm brewing up a pot of Roseroot tea (kidding! kidding!)

[xanweaner]

quote:

"Do you have to use the ambien now because of going off the xanax? What I mean is, why didn't you stick with the Valerian tea?"

No, I started Ambien around the same time I started with Xanax and the mirtazapine when I was hit with a severe depression. As in the past, I get great results from Ambien so we just started back up on the regimen that works. Typically, I can take 1/2 of the 10mg., but this time around, I've ended up taking the whole 10 mg.  I hadn't needed any sleep aids for several years prior to the depression.

[xanweaner]

quote:

"Do you have to use the ambien now because of going off the xanax? What I mean is, why didn't you stick with the Valerian tea?"

No, I started Ambien around the same time I started with Xanax and the mirtazapine when I was hit with a severe depression. As in the past, I get great results from Ambien so we just started back up on the regimen that works. Typically, I can take 1/2 of the 10mg., but this time around, I've ended up taking the whole 10 mg.  I hadn't needed any sleep aids for several years prior to the depression.

[xanweaner]

quote:

"Do you have to use the ambien now because of going off the xanax? What I mean is, why didn't you stick with the Valerian tea?"

No, I started Ambien around the same time I started with Xanax and the mirtazapine when I was hit with a severe depression. As in the past, I get great results from Ambien so we just started back up on the regimen that works. Typically, I can take 1/2 of the 10mg., but this time around, I've ended up taking the whole 10 mg.  I hadn't needed any sleep aids for several years prior to the depression.

[xanweaner]

That was weird - my post just ended up tripling itself and I wasn't even finished with my reply. Strange glitch in the system - didn't mean to do that....

The Valerian Root Tea was used several years ago after I weaned off Ambien so I could have a substitute sleep aid if I needed it. I'm not wild about the taste, but it did work. It doesn't knock you out...it was a gradual relaxation that aided in sleep. I probably still had to do some other techniques to fall asleep. I don't think that you can take too much of it, but again, I'm not the Valerian Root Tea expert - hopefully, anyone reading this can offer some suggestions. I only drank 1 cup and used 1 teabag. I understand that valerian root is used in Russia for anxiety and relaxation. I'm not sure if it's available in different strengths - perhaps it is. You need to scope it out and report back. I bought my tea at Whole Foods.

I know that some people take xanax only in the evening for sleep. If you're taking the short-acting, it's really not the best drug as it's really only effective for about 4 - 6 hours. It's not a hypnotic but an anxiolytic agent so it's true use is to reduce anxiety. I'm just a believer that if you have decent pharmaceutical sleep aids like Ambien to use, why not take that if it's quality sleep that you need?  Also, overt ime, you might be waking up to some rebound anxiety that might occur after the xanax wears off. It's my opinion that if you have options, a sleep aid is the way to go if you are in need of quality sleep. I don't take Ambien CR because I've heard that you can get a bit of a hang-over with it due to its long-acting mechanisms, but I haven't tried it. Plain ole Ambien works great for now.

When I wasn't taking Ambien, one of my favorite techniques is this: When I can't fall asleep, I tell myself if I don't fall asleep in a certain period of time then I  have to get up and start organizing my old paperwork or go through old filing to sort and throw things away. Since I procrastinate doing this, my mind somehow gets the will to fall asleep so I don't have to deal with it.
I think that you could substitute replacing the paperwork organizing with something else that you don't like doing.....so you tell yourself - it's sleep or you need to get up and do some work.  Might sound strange, but it does work sometimes.

I started on Xanax for trembling and shaking that I had when I first got hit with my sickness last year. It helped tremendously but after I began to feel better and stronger, I knew it was time to get off of it. When I write, Day 2 of weaning - I mean a dosage reduction or tapering. I'm currently weaning down my dosage from 4/day to 3/day. Overall reduction is .125 mg. (or 1/2 of the .25 mg. pill). I am not taking a total of .375 mg./day.

So far, I'm happy to report that I'm due to take my 3rd and final dose of the day, and fortunately, I haven't had a rough Tuesday. No real anxiety yet, no shaking, no feeling "strange", no irritability....so far...not too bad of a day.

Hope I didn't ramble on too much...maybe it's part of the withdrawal process....(hah)

[el_dave]

Ramble! Ramble! It makes me feel bad when I write my lenghty, rambling, shambling missives and folks answer succinctly. Oh, I see.. well, reduction is the ticket, you can sure do it that way, and from what I understand of xanax it's about the only way. Okay on the valerian, I still didn't get any, but now Mom knows about it so if I don't have it by Thursday I'll have it. It'll be like 40 degrees and I have to be at the VA at 0830, so Mom's taking me in a car 'cuz I'm an ol' wussy when it comes to cold. Gee, I've got a ton of this xanax stuff, you know why I picked it up, but it did seem to add that final touch to my 'cocktail that put me out like a light. I think, though, that if I continued using it I'd indeed become 'anxious' during the day... anxiety is one of the few things I've NOT been accused of having, so I think I'll just let the stuff sit in it's jar after tonight. I have an appointment with heaven on earth again tomorrow morning so for tonight, one more cocktail for ol' Dave.

Unfortunately, sleep aids can't really help me. I need sleep induction that's like a sledgehammer. I tried doing nothing, after four sleepless nights I gave up. Ran a red light, so decided to give up.. I had a lady on the back yesterday, and when the road turned to sand she said, "Don't want to mess up your bike, so let me off here".. I knew that lady was a biker because she knew the concern was messing up the bike, not the rider. There's nothing sadder than seeing a downed biker dragging his broken leg behind him as he crawls over to see how much damage was done to his beloved steed.

Nobody outrambles El Dave!

I'll let you know about the valerian, I'll just play with it and see what happens. Tea, caps, heck, I'd cook it up and smoke it if I thought it would do any good. Folks who sleep regularly every night without problems sure are lucky. Actually, the thing I liked best in my cocktail was Lunesta, but my source dried up. When I used Lunesta as opposed to sonata, I could get away with only 1 oz of nyquil most nights, and also only added .5 mg of xanax, and it put me under. Good stuff, if you can get it. For some reason it's really hard to find on the streets.

Thing is, I think once you start using drugs to force sleep, that becomes your 'norm' after years of it. I started being unable to sleep well after my second year making a living on eBay, I had never dreamed there could be such disgusting greed on so many levels. I saw one of their cutesy family-oriented ads once when I happened into a room with a TV playing.. if there's have been a brick handy to throw throw at the set I'd have been buying someone a new CRT for their TV set. Anyway, I guess I still am a junkie in a sense, because I believe I'm addicted to drug induced sleep.

Can't concentrate, I want it to be tomorrow morning, Iwanitiwanitiwanit!!! (picture 58 year old baby boy on floor throwing tantrum here). Anyway, on nights that I decide to try not to knock me out, I also lay there thinking that if I don't fall asleep soon I'll get up and do some work. The way my work is, time in is money out, so there is always profitable work that could be done in lieu of sleeping. Unfortunately, that thought doesn't help, and I end up getting up and working. We always have a large fan droning in the room, and one thing that did work for a while when I was doing Lunesta only (yah, there was a time!) was to imagine that the rushing noise of the fan was ions streaming through the thin walls of my ship to the exhaust. They were scooped by a vast upside down parasol-like device at the front of my ship. It was a cool ship, would operate in atmosphere as well as space, so I'd see the top of the house, the grounds, all that dwindling away.. I loved going by Saturn especially.. but I'd travel on and on, marveling at the sights as I traveled out further into space.. and then in the morning I'd wake up. Nowadays, of course, I'm usually passing time with my sweetling, and the droning is the screws turning on our rather obnoxiously large yacht as our all girl crew takes us island to island. Hildy is Captain, of course, and also holds the title of first mate. Sweetling is second mate, and I'm their beloved cabin boy and deck swabber.

Years ago I made a white noise machine, and it worked well to deepen sleep, but I've found that a large, noisy fan does the same thing. Or a squelchless radio tuned to a dead frequency. Do you use any sort of noise as a sleep aid?

-El Dave

[xanweaner]

As I was reading your long, rambling post - a thought just occurred to me - why doesn't anyone jump in here and offer something. Like feedback on Valerian root, for example. Or other creative methods of inducing sleep...without the use of Nyquil, Xanax, and stuff.
You know, you don't need to scrounge on the street for sleep aids - most psychiatrists are happy to write them, as I think that they recognize the importance of sleep on mental health.

I don't plan on staying in Ambien - I typically wean off after I'm done with Xanax, and I plan to do it again. The trick with that  again, is a very slow tapering. If you try to cut too much, you'll get nasty rebound insomnia and you'll then think that you're incapable of sleeping on your own.

If Sonata is effective, ask the new VA lady to get you a rx for it. I know that you don't want to get hooked on it, but when you're fighting off any serious depressions, the sleep component is very important. It sounds like your black cloud has floated away - I hope?

My son sleeps with a hepa filter air purifier that has a nice sound. I don't like to hear any sounds when I sleep, but we're all different. Not sure of your relationship with Ebay and the lack of sleep....maybe you file a claim against them for damages - ha!
I haven't used them, as I'm not a big supporter of ecommerce. There's a variety of reasons why that I won't go into, but I still like doing business face-to-face. I like to know who I'm buying from, where their business is, etc. So, if I need to return something, etc., I have some control over the situation. And, there's also small claims court if someone rips you off. I think that can be a bit tough doing business on the internet when someone rips you off.

I do, however, like this forum, and it's been an incredible support group for me. You have provided a great source of entertainment, but I hope somehow our posts have provided some value to anyone who's reading it.

Good luck with the VA - make sure you get a script from them, And, if you can, put the xanax away and reserve it just for occasional use. You don't want to end up like me, with a nickname like "xanweaner"...

[el_dave]

I dunno. Prolly my long rambling posts drive people batty and they just skip them. My Baby Doll didn't show up this morning while I was still out cold, so I got up and went to work. My shop door opened and in walked an Angel! Three and a half hours later I hopped out of bed again, and for two of those hours Sweetling was fast asleep right in the ol' coot's arms. I know what those Witnesses are saying about someday all God's promises coming to pass, I spent a couple of hours in paradise there just this very morning. BUT! (Gotta be a but, right?) Sweetling starts apologizing for falling asleep (I wonder if St. Peter apologizes for letting folks through the pearly gates) (you must forgive me, I'd have to look way, way down there through a powerful telescope to see cloud nine).. anyway, it turns out Sweetling didn't sleep at all last night. I give her xanax, but I'm very careful about how much. With her home situation and the kids and hubby and all, the dear girl is usually so worn and frazzled.. I can't really depend on her, even as intelligent as she is, not to overdo it. My problem is that with xanax I'm not sure where the overdo it point is. Considering your experience, would you say taking .5 mg of xanax to help sleep every other night could cause her and sort of tolerance or addiction problems? Sweetling says I'm her hero and calls me 'honey'. Hero honeys don't make junkies out of Angels. I'm kinda worried about this. Whatchathink? Sweetling is about five feet tall (I didn't know they stacked sugar that high) and weighs, oh, I imagine perhaps 100 lbs, I would guess. Do you think, if she restricts herself to .5 mg, two nights out of three might be safe?

Sonata's okay, but doesn't seem to be nearly as effective as Lunesta. Tomorrow I have an actual *medical* type app't w/the VA, but I think it's just "labs". A few days later I'm supposed to see actual physician types, which is what Mom and Hilda forced me to go for in the first palce. The form asked if I ever had suicidal thoughts, and I answered it truthfully, so they've been trying to make me into a mental case ever since. When I see these physician types, they can also deal with sleep issues, right? If I could only remember when I get to their offices what it is that I'm supposed to be there for. For some reason every time a physician asks me "How ya doin'?" I reply "Just great, not a problem in the world!" I keep asking them to just call Hildy and she'll tell them of any complaints, but the unreasonable fools keep on insisting on treating me as though I were an adult.

ecommerce is the only way my business can be done. I sort of invented it, and now have worldwide competetion, mostly just reselling my products, which are copiable. The clientele is also worldwide. Gee, Sweetling's visit has me so high I'm not even depressed when thinking of the plagiarism that's come close to ruining my business. eBay, unfortunately, encourages plagiarism.. they don't care if something is unfair or unjustified, and I do have that in writing from them, in those words.. no misinterpretation. Yes, I sincerely believe if I was the suing type, I could win a pretty good lawsuit against eBay. I imagine one day some sharp shyster will unite eBay vendors and take care of it, but that's not something I do. If I trip on a crack in the sidewalk in front of your house I don't sue you, I apologize for falling on your lawn. I like to be able to look in the mirror while shaving. Belive you me, if there were any other way to make a buck, I'd tell eBay to stick their whole system where the sun don't shine! Been there eight years now.. no, nine.. each one a little more depressing than the one before, thanks to their insatiable greed.

Off to the post office with me, then, if I've rambled enough. Let me know your opinion about the xanax, though, okay? If I was any part of causing harm to Sweetling I'd really go bananas.

[Summer123]

Hi all,
What an interesting discussion.  Honestly, I only read about 1/4 of the discussion, but because I forget a lot, while you were discussing sleep aids I thought I might tell you about Trazadone.  Trazadone is an AD that no one uses as an AD (probably because it doesn't work).  Anyway, I've been on the darn drug for a 100 years.  I take it to go to sleep.  It works very well.  Unfortunately, now I cannot stay asleep, but it always knocks me out.  

Dave, sorry to hear about the lady who died and about your experiences with the VA and in NAM.  I do want to thank you for your service to your country.  I did work in VA hospitals for 9 years, and I, at least, always tried to help veterans and I'd like to think I did.  You would not believe though the staff to veteran ratio (and this was in the 70s and very early 80s). I know I worked my butt off and it dismayed me to know that veterans were still waiting.  

Now, Dave, do you have the wife, the girlfriend and the prostitute now?  How many women do you need to not be depressed?  I'll read the rest of everybody's comments later.  Do want you to know though Dave, you are too interesting to ever do yourself any harm.  The same goes to the rest of you friends.

[el_dave]

Just Hildy and Sweetling, now. I went through working girls by the four-pack before Sweetling picked me up, so I still have a load of them as friends. In fact, many of them have let me know that if my Sweetling ever goes away or her husband cleans up his act or anything, they'll be here for me even if I'm broke. Some girls engage in prostitution because it's a needed service and their chosen vocation.. others are desperate, usually because of a crack addiction. I always had a rule that if a girl had a rock cough or other indicators, she needn't bother coming to me, I wasn't going to finance her habit. You'd be surprised how many ladies appreciated that, and you also might be surprised how many truly respect my commitment to my wife. It's been my experience that although there are some prostitutes like on TV (hard hearted) the majority are good people and much more honest than people give them credit for. The crack ho's of course, can't be trusted not to steal, so though I let them in and feed them, let them take showers, wash their clothes, all that, I watch them like a hawk. Hildy says if any of them ever steal from her again they can't come here any longer (a girl once took a bottle of perfume). I just tell a girl up front I'll have to watch her and I tell her why, and every one of them says it's all right. It's very sad when you're so hooked through the gills you'd steal from a friend, but it's a reality, and they know I know it.

Anyway, in my experience, having numerous women doesn't beat depression. Nor cause it. It's like, my Sweetling was with me today, but now she's gone back to hubby and the kids, yet I'm not depressed. The secret is to stay in reality, keep the feet planted firmly on the ground, and not fantasize about things that can never be. See, in order to be with my girlfriend full time I'd have to walk out on my wife, a selfish act that would make me very different in the eyes of my girlfriend. She can also think things like 'if he'd walk out on Hildy what would keep him from walking out on me?'  The fact that she's beautiful beyond description? And what if she, too, had an illness that degraded her physical beauty? That's a 'what if' that's very real in my circles. Think of my wife.. she has the inner beauty that allows her to compensate for my weaknesses and love me regardless. You can't buy that, and you sure don't walk out on it.

Think if you'd been married like twenty years, then became ill, had a series of operations, lost your libido and had to take all sorts of drugs that caused serious weight gain. Think of having weighed like 100-110 pounds before, and of having been fantastic as a lover, way beyond what guys normally get. So good that "replacing" you in the sack took girls by the four-pack. Think of what it would feel like to then be walked out on for a younger, prettier girl. Even if I didn't love my wife (and I do, very much), I could never do something like that to anyone.

In my fondest dreams, we all live together and support each other. Yes, Sweetlings's husband too, because their kids need him. It's the factors operating in our world that make my fondest dream impossible that were the root of my depression, I think. Doesn't matter how many lady friends I have, those factors aren't going to change until mankind progresses a lot further from the pure animal stage (my apologies to animals).

Oh my, in the 70's and early 80's you must have seen some really bad cases. I remember being in not too great shape, hiding in closets and avoiding crowds and all. Heck, to this day my shop is built like a bunker, and my friend Jenny points at it and says "you don't have PTDS (or whatever it is) my hiney!" 2x4 barriers across the doors, video monitoring of the outside.. maybe she's right. But doesn't everyone have a rifle lashed under their workbench? But seriously, I remember some of the guys that came back, they were really, really basket cases. I may have my little eccentricities, but those guys had real problems. I'll bet you helped a lot of them, and so it's you who should be thanked for your service to the country, not me.

Trazadone has been mentioned before.. is it addictive?

[Summer123]

No, Trazadone isn't addictive.  Although if you've been on it for years and try to get off of it, you will suffer from a little insomnia for a while.

Yes, I saw some really sad cases at the VA.  A couple people I saw at the VA were there because they tried to kill themselves.  One through himself in front of a train and had no face.  Another put a bullet to his head and it only made him blind.  One thing I learned from that is there is no guarantee if you are so depressed that you will die if you attempt suicide and, not only that, you may be in far worse shape than you ever imagined.  

And, I beg to differ, but I still thank you for service to your country. It takes a lot of guts to go where people are trying to kill you.  Takes no guts at all to get paid for a job to try and help some vets.

[el_dave]

Then we agree to disagree for sure. It takes guts to go where people are trying to kill you, but when you do you've been brainwashed into thinking you're the biggest, baddest, meanest you know what in the valley. To me it takes a lot more guts to deal with people who have no face and people who are blind. If you can get a job trying to help some vets you can get a job trying to help some people recovering from plastic surgery to have nicer boobs or a bigger penis, yet you stuck with the vets. Sorry, but I have to pass the medals back to you.

I've never quite understood the concern folks have about insomnia returning when a sleeping agent is abandoned. Since you couldn't sleep before you began the agent, if you are able to sleep well for a couple of years, then abandon the agent and are unable to sleep, seems to me that what's happened is you've gained a couple of years of decent sleep. If the preceeding statement is idiotic, please remember that it's actually quite sophisticated for a moron.

[xanweaner]

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, but I know that lack of quality sleep can impact us very negatively. I have used sleep aids - Ambien - off and on for years - using every night for months...then weaning off...and able to sleep on my own...Then, anxiety depression comes back - and back using Ambien again.

I guess it all depends upon your individual needs and what you and your Dr. want to use to help with getting quality sleep.

For your needs - you just need to find something to take on its own - no more combinations with OTC stuff, if you find that you have to use something to get your sleep. You could also go to a sleep lab and get a work-up....there may be other medical reasons that are interfering with your quality of sleep.

For ex., - do you have sleep appnea? Or other issues? Hildy would probably know that, but it might uncover something that you weren't aware of.

Some VA's have a great sleep lab department - not sure if yours does. I used to sell in this field and called on quite a few VA's when I sold my sleep lab equipment.
Just a thought...

[el_dave]

In haven't slept "normally" in many years. How would Hildy know if I had that sleep appnea thing? What's that? My need for sleep aids began about six years or so ago, and it was simply business building. I was working 16 hours a day then, and when it came time to hit the hay I couldn't, mind was just spinning with what I needed to do. At that time I actually went to doctors and got lunesta (I believe it was.. there may have been something pre-lunesta, don't remember). It did a great job, and I got a lot of work done. However, insurance copays were extremely high, and I found out I couple buy prescription drugs on the street for less than the insurance copay (really!) so gave up on the doctors. I've never been one to trust them much, unless they're female and pretty, in which case for some reason I always develop symptoms of testicular cancer which must be checked out asap. Anyway, lunesta started being less effective so I started adding things, until today I have the xanax/OTC/sonata or lunesta (whichever is available)/Nyquil combo.

Business has been ruined by plagiarists worldwide (my product is reproducable and eBay is a money hungry irresponsible self serving pack of thieves) plus I've some pain in all my joints, but the left arm gets so bad it keeps waking me up. My "cocktail" sort of knocks me out as opposed to being a sleep aid, so it helps with that too

Sure, I'm not stupid, I went to a doctor to find out what was causing these pains in all joints. I was told "put ice packs on it". At that point it became obvious what doctors are there for (other people.. perhaps people with money?) so I stopped wasting time on them.

Thing is, life really, truly sucks. Sweetling comes over, yes.. when she can slip by her husband. Then she has to slip on back to the house she lives in with him. Hildy's even nice to me sometimes, but has never been known for having a sweet disposition. Oh, I won't go on and on whining.. thing is, sleep is my real reason for living. I have a completely different world I live in when I'm asleep, and it's so superior to this waking world. There's no sign of greed or jealousy or posessiveness or hatred in it. I live when asleep in a world not defined by those things. Can you imagine that value of that?

I got the money for some people who have to have a car fixed or lose a job, I've got to go pick it up in Georgia so I have to ride on outa here.. I get to see the VA lady first, last time, as she's going into private practice.

Oh, my question about the xanax.. there is a level of use at which tolerance and subsequent addiction won't develop. For hydrocodone, for example, at 5 mg, for a ~100 lb 5'0" Angel with carpal tunnel it's safe every other day. I was wondering if you knew any similar data for xanax.. for instance, .5 mg every other night to help her sleep has not addicted her, and she was thinking of increasing it to two nights on, one off, and I'm not going to do that without some solid info received from experienced people. You'll soon be xanfree, and I don't want my Baby Doll to have to take your present moniker any time in the future.

I gotta run. Georgia's on my mind!

-El Dave

[xanweaner]

Here's the medical definition for sleep apnea:

Apnea is defined as a cessation of oronasal airflow of at least 10 seconds in duration. When it occurs 30 or more times during a 7-hour period of nocturnal sleep, it is called obstructive sleep apnea (OSA) and requires immediate intervention to prevent it from becoming life-threatening.

Basically, Hildy would hear you snoring - that's how you have some clue as to if you're suffering from it. During sleep apnea, she would hear a pause in between the intake and outake of air.
This is considered one of many issues related to sleep disorders...

Doesn't your work involve listening to music loudly for hours? This can definitely mess with  the brain - overstimulates - and it's difficult to fall asleep right away....I know people in the recording industry, and after working for hours in the studio, it can take them quite awhile to unwind and quiet their brain so they can fall asleep.

Again, for your health, ED, you are best to skip your street connections and buy your sleep aids at a discount pharmacy, if you can. I believe that Ambien is generic now...and you can also get a AAA discount. Doesn't VA provide drugs at a discount?
If they don't, that's terrible...as they should...

Re: xanax - I wouldn't recommend taking it two days in a row, then skipping one day. The likelihood could exist that she could start to experience some of the rebound anxiety phenonomen that xanax is famous for.

If  sleep is the goal, I suggest ask a doc for a sleep aid. Xanax is for relief of anxiety, and isn't supposed to be used long-term. Of course, thousands/millions (don't know the hard data) of people use it for long periods of time. And, some of them end up here on the anxiety forum, posting for advice on how to get off or switch to something that's indicated for long-term use.

You don't want your sweeting to end up as xanweaner2, right??
Then again, when I'm xanfree...maybe I can surrender the name...

If you're on your way to Georgia, definitely don't speed in Macon County when you get there...

[el_dave]

So what I'll do when I can find some time is set up a recording device for like between 2 and 4 a.m. and see what I can hear. Thanks!

Naw, I listen to merengue or house music at high volume, but all that shuts down three to five hours before beddy-bye time.

If the VA provides it it will be free. I'm one of those "no-copay" type vets. I saw the MD type doctor today who said that judging from the bloodwork and all that I'm healthy as a horse. However, she can't do sleepy stuff, By VA regs the head plumber has to do that. He's the guy that keeps prescribing me these things like paxil and remeron and all. We'll see what he says next time.

Sweetling is about as big on doctors for herself as I am (and she's a nurse!) but I think it's mainly a financial issue with her. She runs the kids to doctors all the time. I tell her I'll pay, but.. well, she's just too nice to me, I'll just leave it at that. I'll keep her on the .5 mg every other night, though, per your advice. If they give me anything for sleeping I'm sure I'll be able to engineer things so there's enough to share with her, and perhaps we can deal the xanax out altogether.

No speeding in Macon county. Got it. Same thing as Madison county here.

El Dave be unhappy. Kiddo is in "mean mode" and Sweetling was going to come over and do what she could (oh, that one can do a lot, Lordy, yes) but then Kiddo came home early, just as Princess was walking up the drive. I feel like a kid at Christmas who opened up an empty box.  Well, no, make that a box with one of those spring loaded punching things like in the cartoons.

Sometimes I wish I still drank. Sometimes it's so hard to live with one who always seems to be able to find fault... Hildy sees me and immediately starts griping. Sweetling sees me and immediately starts smiling. We have that in common, the grinning like fools at the sight of each other, but also her Mom treats her like Hildy treats me.

Tell ya what, everybody mail me a quarter and I'll quit whining.

-El Dave

[xanweaner]

OK...we all have our reasons to whine....

I'm not feeling all the great today - it seems like the withdrawal just kicked up a notch - it can do that in the second week, I've found....you think that the nasty dosage reduction stuff is quieting, when all of a sudden - wham! Your hands are tingling (right now), you feel like you missed taking your last dose of xanax (and I didn't - I keep a log), and then you start feeling like ****...started a few hours ago.....sigh......
I just want this whole ordeal to be over.....

Please don't let sweeting take xanax more frequently - you really need to find something else for sleep, so you don't end up in my situation...

I'll keep nagging you until I get a post that reads, "i got an rx for Ambien (sonata, or Lunestra...or something else...).
This is  one very tricky little drug, and the longer that you're on it...the trickier it is to get off of.

Big sigh.........
xan

[el_dave]

Don't you worry, I am taking your advice very seriously. I see the head plumber in a couple of weeks or something like that (Hildy and Dallas handle scheduling, I'm not bright enough to keep track of appointments) and by VA regulations He's the one who has to write a script for sleepy stuff. What I'll do is share it with my Sweetling. I love that girl, it burns in me like a hot fire, if I did anything to hurt her.. well, I just can't stand the thought of it. So please know that your tingling hands, typing on your keyboard, have saved someone else from going through what you're going through.

-El Dave

[xanweaner]

The tingling in the hands - particularly the top of the hands - is part of the withdrawal symptoms...I know that it could be worse. If you saw some of the videos on utube under xanax withdrawal, you would cry.....I'm thankful that mine aren't severe and debilitating.

I hope you have a peaceful sleep tonite....my 10 mg. Ambien is waiting for me on my bedstand...but, soon, that's the next one to go.....

[el_dave]

Well, I'm only doing the sonata and the two OTC sleepies tonight, canceling the xanax and the nyquil. So I'm still awake. I just wrote Sweetling a note asking her to go sailing in the Caribbean with me, perhaps that's what we'll be doing. Tomorrow she'll be coming to see me, and Monday morning.. oh boy, no, that's oh girl, Monday morning there will be no clouds in my sky, heaven on earth time. I pass your information on to her, and she trusts me completely, and thanks to you I know what I needed to know to keep her safe. Thank you.

You're going to be completely free of that stuff soon now. It will only be a memory, and you'll continue to help other people get out of it or better yet, never get into it. It's very hard to go through, but you're wiser now and the people you'll be able to help because of the experience you're having right now will be much better off. So it's not for nothing, and it's not only for your own personal freedom that you do this, it'll end up doing a lot of good. I'm sure I'm not the first person you've made understand the danger.

Freedom. Such a beautiful word. A jail cell can be in the mind, in the form of a little pill. The spotlights are sweeping the yard, whistles are blowing, guards running around frantically, but all to no avail. You're escaping!

You gonna vacation in Florida this year?

[xanweaner]

I chose to take xanax a year ago when I came down with severe anxiety and depression. I've taken it twice in the past, so I find it incredibly effective...this is the first time that it's been so difficult to wean off of...not sure why....

My pdoc will usually give me just about anything that I ask for - and he knows that I'm incredibly fearful of developing addiction as I always want to get off of drugs after I'm feeling better...

I wish I had the money to travel to Florida - have a few friends living on the East coast,, and Ialso have some interesting memories of living down there...Lauderdale and a short time in Key West...what a trip that was!! Lost one of my best friends down in Key West to a guy who worked on the fishing boats....long story.....

Your sailing trip sounds amazing...I used to windsurf...
When are you two sailing off into the blue waters of the Caribbean??

[el_dave]

Just about every night. It's very pitiful, an old man dreaming of sailing his favorite sea with his Sweetling. But That's how I get by day to day, with dreams. I'm afraid that her husband and my wife would have some major objections to our vacationing together in real life. We have a difficult enough time spending a few hours together here and there. Well, Hildy kinda looks the other way, but I guess Baby Doll's husband has problems with pride. They haven't even slept in the same room for over a year, yet he still wants to play the posessiveness game.

So we write back and forth and plan our night. Isn't that beautiful? Isn't that sad?

Last night we did sail, but also spent a bit of time on St. Thomas and St. Croix. There was one interesting episode though, and I swear I'm not making this up.. you were in it! I guess we've been writing back and forth a lot. It was sort of odd, Sweetling and I were here in my workshop, doing what we usually do when no one is around. The shop has a door I built that kitty can climb but not get through, so instead of screening it has chickenwire. That's the door into the main house. Well, Sweetling and I are going at it like a couple of teenagers, and watching the monitors for 'approaching problems', when you appeared at the inner door! Of course, I've never seen you, but you know how funny dreams are. Someone was there, and I said to Sweetling, "It's my friend from the depression forum, xanweaner, that's been warning us away from those blue sleepies" And you said: "Dave, I see what you mean. She is indeed beautiful. If I were into girls I'd be on her like white on rice!" Isn't that strange? Do you think such a thing has any meaning that can be analyzed? I think perhaps it's that it bothers me that the picture I have up of her is so terrible. She hadn't had any sleep in days, and had done a lot of crying. That was taken when we first started seriously working on her problems, and I had just finished explaining to her that things were going to work out because we'd never stop trying until they did. I've no idea of how, but I did convince her that we would succeed, and that smile you see was hope, and the realization that someone truly loves her. But it's an awful picture. I went down to the hair stylist and set her up for a new perm and highlights and all that, and Sweetling will go sometime next week and have it done, and now she has a job and things are indeed looking better, and I'll take a picture that is halfway worthy of her. She doesn't really need all that 'perm' and 'manicure' and stuff, but it makes her feel good and radiate even more brightness than she usually does.

Thing about Sweetling is that her physical beauty is nothing compared to her kindness and spirit. And intelligent?!  The girl can put two and two together and make twenty two. I'm sorry for going on and on about her, I'm kinda missing her right this minute.

Sweetling and I also go into outer space a lot. Hildegard says that's my natural habitat anyway. By the way, on our boat Hildy is Captain and First Mate (though we don't, she retains the title). Sweetling is Second Mate, and I'm their Cabin Boy and Deck Swabber. And happy as a fellow can be.

Do you dream?

Well, remember if you're ever in this area, we have a couple of guest rooms and you can certainly avail yourself of one or both. We've had folks come from Europe and Japan, so California isn't that far!  I remember the Japanese fellow, Shigeru.. I took him to Panama City Beach, and the guy was beside himself.. he goes walking up to this beach bunny in a nothing thong bikini and just panned his video camera up and down her body. Her big bruiser of a husband or boyfriend looked like he was going to get restless about it, but then Shigeru looks all wide eyed at the guy and says, "In Japan girls not dressed like this!" and the guy was all right.  We also took him out in the woods and let him shoot our guns, something he'd never done before (of course, no living thing was murdered).  AND we Americanized him to the extent that by the time he left he was talking union. I don't know if you're familiar with Japanese ways, but that was a big step for the guy.

Well, I think I'll go read and then be with my Princess. She's hitting the sack at midnight tonight.. we plan these things. So sad that it will only be a dream, but sometimes our dream comes true. In our situation that's really all one can ask for.

I hope you sleep well tonight, ma'am. I apologize for rambling so. I guess I must be feeling kinda lonely back here. Kiddo's up front with her lover (the television set), so maybe I'll go bother her for a while. I've bored all you guys to tears, why should Hildy get off scott free?

-El Dave

[xanweaner]

Loved your post - you definitely made me laugh....it's funny how people crop up in our dreams...unfortunately, I don't dream much on Ambien - it basically knocks me out until morning...sometimes I can dream lightly in the morning, but the dreams typically aren't glorious....One of the many reasons why I want to wean off the Ambien next....

All this weaning-----I'm just one big weaner, I guess...

Thanks for the offer - you live in Tallahassee?  I haven't visited that city in Fla - not sure what part it's in - would have to check the map...Florida was always one of my favorite places to visit...great beaches...loved Daytona in the 70's - was a sleepy town, kind of funky....we used to go down for Spring Break....fun and games....

I like the post from jurplesman - I have to check out some of the sites - nutritional psychology sounds pretty good to me....drugs aren't always the answer, but they do have their place, I feel. If I could have avoided them altogether, I never would have swallowed a single AD or anxiolytic agent or sleeping pill. But, that's water under the bridge...

I have to deal with what's on my plate right now....I have a new psychologist who rocks...I wish I could afford him - $100/session.....but I think he'll definitely help me during this transitional weaning process. If it were up to my psychiatrist, I'd probably be swallowing pills for the rest of my life, so I could keep writing those $100 checks for a 20-minute "drug management" session......

Sweet dreams...have fun sailing with Sweeting tonite....perhaps I'll be in it again, this time windsurfing by on my Mistral Super Light board...
-xan-

[el_dave]

Perhaps tonight. I'll get Princess one of those boards too, and you can teach her. Hildegard and I will hang around on deck and watch all the children play. At some time or another, I'll say or do something inappropriate and Hildy will knock me off the boat, but I'll catch up with you guys next island.

I don't know, I guess I'm anti-drug in a sense. I have no problem with folks doing a drug for immediate and temporary relief from something or another (be it boredom, pain, or anything else), but permanantly (permanently? Oh, well) altering body chemistry.. that just doesn't sit well with me. Of course, I do realize that there are folks that need it, and my avoidance of it should not be construed as judgement.

I feel so sorry for you guys that have to pay for medical stuff. Before they made me go to the VA, I refused. When the copay for one lunesta prescription became the same thing as the total of the entire bill for my birth (including hospital, doctors, materials, the whole thing.. and I'm talking the entire bill, not the copay) I refused to have anything to do with it any longer. My attitude was "I'll see a doctor when I'm carried in to see one". When I was younger and filled with false pride and arrogance, I'd take nothing from the army or the society that had, in my opinion, emotionally raped a naive youngster (me) but now I'm older and wiser and poverty stricken and glad to get some payback for that year in 'Nam.. which I have to say they do seem willing to provide. Like with your not being nude in an El Dave dream production, call the papers..  a government agency I'm not complaining about.. who'da thunk it?!

Tallahassee is "Georgia with a Florida zip code". At the very top, pretty much in the middle. 250 miles to Savannah East, 250 miles to Mobile West. It's like an hour to the beach, even by motorcycle.. but we have dug up various ways to have fun around here anyway, and even some that are fit to discuss in mixed company. Honestly, you're welcome any time you'd like to explore this area, perhaps on a "pit stop" on your way to "real" Florida. Summer's the only time this area is continuously habitable, though, by other than arctic wildlife.. but that's the opinion of a fella who's happiest when it's ninety degrees farenheit and above.

Oh, jeez, I hope ambien wouldn't change my dreams. They're all I have, the majority of the time. Tomorrow and/or Tuesday morning I'll have the dreams come true for a few hours, but usually the memory of dreams is what gets me through the day. Have you ever tried lunesta? For a few months that actually worked for me, just 1 mg of lunesta and nothing else.

Oh, sheesh, I guess I'd best get to work. Big problems here, the FTP server is offline due to redirector problems beyond my control, and I'm making time-consuming alternates for distributing samples and freebies, all of which are important for advertising my wares. Y'all have a great day!

-El Dave

[el_dave]

The shrink bailed on me! Called in sick! I'm rescheduled for May 27th. Hildegard would have been proud of me, I left a message requesting that he write me a script for something sleepy tomorrow, and specified "like ambien". Just like a grownup with an actual, functioning brain would do! I'm so proud of me! We'll see what happens.. when no action is taken on my polite request I'll put the 'pick on it. I think she's been itching for a rematch with that nurse anyway.

Howzit going?

[xanweaner]

Sorry to hear about the "no show"....and you have to wait until May 27th?? I certainly hope that other Vets get faster appts. than this...geez....

Hopefully, you can get a rx for Ambien or one of the others...

But more importantly, I found an old post that I had written with some quotes from experts on Xanax....and one of the articles was specifically about dependence on xanax when taking it only 1/day. If you want to read it, let me know, and hopefully, I can find it. I was doing quite a bit of research on withdrawal phenonomenon when I was really struggling back in Feb./March.

Today was a touch better...it's day 15.  Let's see how it goes tomorrow before I can decide if I'm now stabilized at this new, lowered amount. And, thanks for asking...

Hope it's going better for you re: server problems...

[el_dave]

His nurse called and said if I want to just call first any day to make sure he's in, they'll stick me in there as a walk-in. As a walk in, you usually get whatever you're asking for, unless the head plumber sees some reason why not (like if I had a history of drug abuse and was asking for an opiate).

All is fixed on server.. unfortunately, all is not fixed regarding my Sweetling. Her loving husband stole from her again and lied to her again. I feel so darned frustrated. I'm not allowed to care too much, Hildy wouldn't like that at all. But I do care. I'd like to go over there and get all her stuff and the kids and move them in over here.

Sometimes I wish I had no honor.

-E.D.

[xanweaner]

I'm sorry about Sweetling...sad story when someone is married to a liar and thief...she is lucky to have you, as you are lucky to have her...

I know that Hildy would not want to set up a new, expanded household...
I have no answers, unfortunately...

I'm glad to hear that you can now be a "walk-in"...yay! Soon, you can say good-bye to the xanax for sleep.  Here's that info. I told you about...I know that you didn't ask for it, but I just sent it over to another forum member who is struggling through Ativan (lorazapam ) weanimg....the 2 benzo's are basically in the same class due to their half-lives. So...please take a sec. and read. I hope that it reinforces why I've been nagging you...
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"Individuals who take only one pill daily for sleep or anxiety are not exempt from withdrawal problems. In my private practice during the last few years I have worked with several people who were unable to stop taking a once-a-day standard dose of Xanax, Ativan, Klonopin, or other minor tranquilizers. In each case, the attempt to stop the medication led to a disturbing degree of anxiety or insomnia within twenty-four hours. The problem seemed to be caused by rebound anxiety or rebound insomnia (see ahead). In a personal communication in late December 1990, internist John Steinberg confirmed that patients taking one Xanax tablet each day for several weeks can become addicted. Steinberg is medical director of the Chemical Dependency Program at the Greater Baltimore Medical Center and president of the Maryland Society of Addiction Medicine. He points to research that Xanax and other short-acting benzodiazepines can cause a reactive hyperactivity of the receptors that they block. The hyperactive receptors then require one or more doses of Xanax each day or they produce anxiety and emotional discomfort. Steinberg calls the impact of Xanax "a fundamental change in the homeostasis of the brain." After the patient stops taking the Xanax, according to Steinberg, it takes the brain six to eighteen months to recover. Xanax patients should be warned, he says, that it can take a long time to get over painful withdrawal symptoms. Since doctors frequently don't realize this, they, too, are likely to be confused and to continue the drug in the hope of "treating" the patient's drug-induced anxiety and tension.

Many detoxification beds are occupied by patients addicted to minor tranquilizers and even more by those who are cross-addicted with alcohol and other drugs. Steinberg says that Xanax is "by far and away" the worst offender and that it definitely causes addiction without being mixed with other sedatives. Steinberg estimates that one in ten patients receiving Xanax will become addicted. * (Based on an estimated fifteen million people receiving Xanax each year in the United States, Steinberg concludes that 1.5 million Xanax addicts are produced each year. "
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I know that you're not taking it nightly, but I just wanted you to understand the nastiness that can result when you least expect it.

As for me, I'm on Day 16 - I think I'm beginning to settle at the new, lowered amount, and hopefully, can start a new period of weaning in a few more days....

When are you taking the VA walk?

[el_dave]

Thank you, I will pass that on to Sweetling too, to be sure she understands my concern.

Yah, it's rough as all get out sometimes not to be able to protect her. Sometimes I just have to "ride the wave" and not think too deeply about things, or I'm afraid of that nasty ol' depression setting in. All I can do is everything I can do for her. Today she's at work, and I'll have a dozen roses delivered with a note, "An Angel like you deserves for every day to be Valentines day". That should cheer her up. But I can't escape feeling that if only she were with me she wouldn't need cheering up. Sometimes it's very hard.

I'm not sure when I'll do the VA thing. Should be shortly, as they guy won't be there the first week in May. Geez, I guess that means if it's not today it'll be over a week. Darn it! I spent yesterday with Sweetling, we didn't even get out the sack until noon, and then we ran around looking for a thing she wants for her son's birthday. So I'm way behind in filling customer orders. May not be able to do it today. May have to wait until after 08MAY.

Thank you for keeping us from going through what you're going through.

-El Dave

[xanweaner]

Glad to know that my info. made an impression....I hate to beat a dead horse, but I want to spare you and your loved ones from any future problems with the drug.

I started weaning down on Ambien last nite - was planning to wait until I'm off Xanax completely, but I was compelled to give it a try. I took 3/4 of the 10 mg. and slept like a log. I was so tired this morning still....I had hoped I'd have more energy, but I know it'll take time. I'll stay on the 3/4 for about 4 - 5 more days, then go down to 1/2.

And, in spite of another headache again, I felt ok on the lowered xanax dose - now on day 17. I think I'll be read yto go in 3 days...wow - the end is near....I just want to be past the tough weaning trials...it's truly psychological torture...talk about head games.....

Hey - did you hear about the death today of the infamous LSD inventor? Man, 103 or was it 102 years? Guess when you have access to the pure stuff, it doesn't affect you as much (ha!).....I haven't read his full story yet - I think I'll go check it out now.

When I think of LSD, I think of Timothy Leary and Osley LSD  out of San Fran....I think he was a contributor, too...and ole Jimi Hendrix was a fan out it, too...
I just love Hendrix...still listen to his greatest hits in my car, cruising around...

Hope you catch up with your orders...

[xanweaner]

Here's a quick synopsis - I found it really interesting...hope you do, too.....

Swiss chemist Albert Hofmann, inventor of LSD, died yesterday at the age of 102, just 10 days after the 55th anniversary of his notorious bicycle trip while tripping on "acid". Hofmann, who suffered a heart attack at home in Basel, Switzerland, was the first person to synthesize lysergic acid diethylamide, better known as LSD, and the first human known to experience its mind-bending effects.

The drug was the 25th he created from the basic chemical ingredients of ergot, a fungus that forms on rye, in his search for treatments for circulation and respiratory problems. He reports in his 1979 autobiography LSD, My Problem Child, that he became restless and dizzy when he accidentally ingested the compound while making it—and "perceived an uninterrupted stream of fantastic pictures, extraordinary shapes with intense, kaleidoscopic play of colors" for about two hours.

The very next day (April 19, 1943), he swallowed 0.25 milligram of the acid to confirm that it had caused his odd symptoms. Overcome by dizziness and anxiety, he asked an assistant to bicycle him home; once there, he writes that he was overcome by feelings that he might die (prompting a later call to his physician), along with delusions that included perceiving a kindly neighbor transformed into a malevolent witch.

Sandoz Pharmaceuticals, his employer at the time, tried to promote LSD as a drug to treat psychiatric disorders such as schizophrenia under the trade name Delysid by sending samples to psychiatrists—and the compound was briefly used as the treatment du jour in conjunction with psychoanalysis.

But acid swiftly found its way into wider use among artists, writers (such as Brave New World's Aldous Huxley), actors (including established movie stars like Cary Grant), and rebellious teens in the 1950s and 1960s. In fact, it became so popular as a way to "tune in, turn on and drop out" that in 1966 New York State and California made it a crime to possess it; the U.S. government followed suit in 1970.

Hofmann also manufactured a wide range of medical drugs from ergot, including methergine (which is still used to halt bleeding after birth) and hydergine (which improves circulation). In the psychedelic realm, he was also the first to synthesize psilocybin, the active ingredient in so-called magic mushrooms (Psilocybe mexicana).
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I couldn't believe that this was going on in the 40's....amazing....sent the samples to psychiatrists.....things weren't all that different back then....probably they'll be writing about the SSRI's 40 years from now and talk about the millions of Americans who used them and how it impacted our society...
I was looking at the no. of prescriptions that are written for SSRI's - it's in the multi-millions/yearly......

Sad - huh?