There is nothing good about me or my life

[ZeldaAdmirer]

All our own personal created meanings, our values and worths, and even our own morals (such as the ones you have) are all neutral. Thoughts are just thoughts no matter what they are. You can come up with a bland thought in your mind and you can then proceed to come up with a moral thought. But they are no different. They are only different in the sense that they are different words, images, sounds, etc. and that is it. They might send signals to different parts of the brain to make you do different deeds. But even those other parts of your brain are neutral as well. Your thoughts (created meanings of good and bad) cannot somehow project themselves onto other people, other objects, or even other parts of your brain and make these things good or bad. Therefore, since pleasure stands alone by itself as always feeling good no matter what while pain and despair stand alone by themselves as always feeling bad no matter what, this is the reason why pleasure is the only good thing in life while pain and despair are the only bad things in life. As I said before, good and bad are, therefore, scientific properties for this very reason. They are the functioning of those atoms and particles in our brains that give us pleasure as well as pain and despair and even our own neutral thoughts of good and bad cannot somehow project themselves onto our pleasure and suffering and make these things good, bad, or even neutral.

So you would be delusional to think that your life is good or bad or that you are a good or bad person without feelings of pleasure or pain and/or despair since good and bad are actual scientific properties and your personal created meanings in life (your thoughts) can never be these scientific properties. As I said before, "good" is a scientific property (which would be the pleasure itself). Same thing for "bad" while all our thoughts remain a different scientific property (a neutral scientific property that is neither good or bad such as the functioning of the atoms and particles in objects and other things).  So you might then be asking how it is that people with anhedonia (which is an absence or very little pleasure) find good meaning about themselves and their lives anyway.  This would be because their minds trick them into thinking that they as human beings and that their lives are somehow good.  They are tricked by thoughts alone when, in reality, these thoughts are all neutral anyway (neither good or bad).  So these people would be delusional to somehow think that they as human beings and that their lives are somehow good anyway without their pleasure.

I realize that it is in our evolutionary design to view other things in life besides our pleasure and suffering as being good or bad in life.  But even our own evolutionary design (and, again, our created meanings through our thoughts) are all neutral.  Also, I do still help and value others anyway. I can live my life valuing the pleasure of others. But all thoughts and personal meanings we create in life are all neutral. Therefore, even my own value towards the pleasure of others is neutral even if I were to tell myself the message such as that "At least I have given others pleasure because it is good for them despite my own absence of pleasure." I am not in the minds of those other people and cannot experience their pleasure. Therefore, it is only my own pleasure that is good. Even if it were pleasure that is obtained from either witnessing others experiencing pleasure or even me obtaining pleasure from harming others, it would still be my own experienced pleasure that is good from my own perspective while the pleasure and suffering of others is only good and bad from their own perspectives. Even if I were somehow a psychopath right now who obtains pleasure from harming others, I would still be a good person since my own pleasure is the only thing that defines me and my life as being good.

Now someone might tell me something such as that I am a good or bad person and the sound waves from that message that person spoke would then enter my brain.  However, it is still my own interpretation that determines whether I am a good or bad person.  Actually, as I just stated before, all those interpretations and messages are all neutral anyway and it would only be my own pleasure that makes me and my life good.  Therefore, how good one is (their level of greatness) and how good one's life is solely depends on the level of pleasure they have in life.  Also, since pleasure always feels good in of itself no matter what while pain and despair always feel bad in of themselves no matter what and this is something that can never change while our thoughts (perceptions) of good and bad in life can change, this would also mean that our perceptions in life are neither good or bad.

Even our own actions are neutral as well and they are the result of atoms and particles. Our thoughts of good and bad cannot even project themselves onto our own actions and make them good or bad either. As for a question one might ask such as that if good and bad are nothing more than one's own pleasure and suffering, then why is it that we can even perceive other things in life as being good or bad in the first place and why is it that there are other things in life that are good and bad besides pleasure and suffering? The answer to that would be that we are just designed by evolution to benefit our survival by perceiving other things in life as being good or bad when, in fact, all our thoughts of good and bad are still nothing more than just thoughts anyway including even our own evolutionary design being neutral as well. Even if we perceive our own thoughts as being good or bad, even that perception itself is still nothing but a neutral perception. However, this neutral perception would then send emotional signals to our brain which are either emotions that feel good or bad. Therefore, it's only our own emotions that are good and bad as well as pain itself being bad as well. All other things in life besides our own pleasure and suffering are also nothing but neutral (neither good or bad) atoms and particles as well.

Now some might say that there is no grand purpose in this universe in that we must all live good worthwhile lives and all that is necessary to live is to eat, breathe, etc. and that I should, therefore, be just fine living a life of no pleasure.  But my personal experience of pleasure was so profound and meaningful to me that there would absolutely be no way for me to be fine and content living such a life since my personal experience of pleasure (which would be all good feelings including love) tells me that it is the only greatest thing about me as a person and my life.  My personal experience now of depression and anhedonia (emotional numbness) which I'm about to explain below is also the worst experience for me and this is yet another reason why I will never be fine and content living a life of little to no pleasure no matter what.  Also, the reward system is a very vital part of living (our evolutionary design).  Therefore, this is also another reason why many people will never be fine and content living a life with little to no pleasure just like me no matter what.

(Note to Reader:  This post is continued below)!

[persephonedemeter]

Hmmm. That's interesting. I didn't know tough love involved statements like that, and I used tough love on occasion too, and mangaed to turn people around. How's it working on you, ZeldaAdmirer?

[nursegirl6572]

I don't have much to add, other than to say, for one, MH DOES have a rule about creating multiple usernames, it's not permitted.  My FIRST reaction was to report the thread to the moderators for that reason, but I wanted Matt to have a chance to address it...and make sure he saw that his posts was seen by us.  

I wasn't "warning" anyone away from the OP, I was trying to make a point of making it possible for people to get the back story a bit, by reading through his history.  It puts people who are volunteering their own time at a disadvantage to have to re-ask questions that have already been answered, many times.  I think that's really unfair, and putting people at an unnecessary disadvantage.  If Matt is looking for a new perspective completely...it obviously doesn't make a lot of sense to post the exact same kind of information where it's going to be obvious that it's him...especially when several of us have gone round and round with him, trying to help him.  It's basically impossible when a group of people have a history with someone....to start over fresh....without those prior conversations being relevant.

I personally didn't find anything wrong with Paxiled's comment, and personally I agree with it.  We've both told Matt the same thing directly.  His mind is his own worst enemy.  He's a smart guy, that's very obvious.  

The one thing I 100% agree with you about is that a lot of Matt's posts are probably more appropriate as journals....as most of the time, he doesn't actually ask any questions, or engage in continued dialogue.  I've suggested that to him.  I think journaling would be a great outlet for him personally.

I'm sorry you view mine, or Paxiled's posts in ANY way as shooting Matt down.  I don't think you could be any more wrong on that.  Call it tough love, whatever you want, but just like every poster here has a different story, different needs.....the same goes for approaches in how one is able to get through to someone.  

I'm going to try not to post to this thread anymore, unless Matt wants to enter into a discussion about his depression.   I don't think it's helpful to debate and critique other people's posts, methods, or reasons.  One could argue that that is also not helpful and would maybe be better served as a private message.  Everyone who takes time to try to help people do it a little differently.  We also all have very different opinions at times, and that's okay.  We're not always going to agree with one another.  

Hopefully we can all get back to what's important, and that would be helping Matt, if he's open to discuss the issues.

[persephonedemeter]

I've listened in real time and virtually to all kinds of people who have gone through depression, other illnesses now, and other kinds of problems and situations for 4 decades now. A lot of people like ZeldaAdmirer or Matt every now and then, as recently as last week.  There are people who take awhile to overcome their various illnesses, and when people spend a lot of time in the cerebral part of their brain, it is the most comfortable and most useful coping skill they have to distance themselves from the suffering that they have to endure, I am sure you came across it in your practice with physically ill people as well as people with mental illnesses and with both.

You already directly set limits and boundaries with Matt, and called him on it. There is no need to discount him or throw sand on his face, and as far as Cay12345's question, even if it gets revisited alot, that is a good question,  I don't think it was necessary to warn her off of him. I didn't get the sense he was even a cultist.

I went through a time when I intellectualized and came up with "creative rationalizarion" when I was severely depressed. Normally, I don't express myself that way and I don't ruminate or outhink myself, but when I was really ill, that's what happened. Maybe, ZeldaAdmirere is going through something  like that, who knows. I did it over and over again. Spinning it around. Ruminating on it. Questioning and believeing it. I drove myself crazy over it and I know I really turned a lot of people off, becasue they told me so or just left the room.

I don't think it is necessary to make comments about a person's style of intellect on either side of the intellectual spectrum. Online, no one can appreciate if somone is teasing or being cruelly critical, but I do know Paxil's comment wasn't helpful or even kind, It is discounting.

Matt or ZeldaAdmirer may have reasons to change his online identity, but from what I can tell, he doesn't really have anything malicious in intent or trying to overtake or run a post to his own advantage for whatever reason. People can either participate or not, he is not bullying anyone or overshadowing anyone or stuffing it down people's throats. If it goes too far, I am sure the moderator would cut it off if people complained about it to them directly,

People reinvent themselves and change identity for all kinds of reasons, It's not a crime unless you are evading the law for crimes you commit or doing so to harm covertly. As far as I can tell the forum is not for one flavor of depression or one flavor of treatment. This is a public forum on the net, and there isn't group  therapy rules here nor is it really a controlled environement, obviously. This is a poor format for therapy or direct treatment.I don't t think I need to tell  you or Paxil, it takes a while for people to get a handle on things, especially when there is a condition that affects the mind like depression, and there are different kinds, different levels and even other diagnosis both physical and mental going on with a person and all the responses are different, It happens in physical illness also, where you cannot treat everyone exactly alike and expect the same results every single time.

On the forum, a lot of times, no one gets a complete picture, and no one can really spend an awful lot of time painting a whole picture, so you get a one dimensional description, and with that, advice can only go so far. If it is simple, sure it's easy. Sure people play games too here, but I don't get that sense here, and as far as why he has a different user identity, it doesn't really matter to me. If I feel it's getting under my skin,  used and abused, I just say bye-bye, especially if there doesn't seem to be a good sense of meaningful dialogue. I try not to add wood to a fire I know I won't be able to contain. It's kind of hard to want to post any further when a person encourages you with one hand and then shoots you down with another.

There's my 2 cents. It took me years to get over my intellectualization, rationalization, or whatever you want to call it. It got better when I got better, and when I got a bit better, that's when I knew there was something really wrong with the way I was thinking and I was able to help myself with it in adjunct to the treatment i was already getting to make really good change and progress. I also saw the same thing happening with others. It was pointed out to me, but no one ever told me it was cute or that I did a good job painting myself in an intelectual corner. If you were in Matt's position and reading that comment how would you react? I doubt he is laughing it off and taking it in good spirit. If anything, I hope he ignores the meanness in it. That's what it looks like when someone reads it with a blank slate. It looked like kids ganging up on someone in a playground and making unkind, cruel critical remarks thinly veiled.

If anything, I would say to ZeldaAdmirer, that if he doesn't really want much of anyone else's opinion and using the forum as a form of expression, he may want to consider the journal in his My Medhelp page if he is looking for self discovery. He can make the journal public by just making it public, allowing people to comment on it.

[nursegirl6572]

Oh yes, I agree with that completely!!!

[Paxiled]

I'm not certain, but I think this is his second new handle.  You gotta say this, he's interesting, and nobody paints themselves into an intellectual corner better than he does.  

[nursegirl6572]

I'm not sure why the OP made a new username, as he has a long history of posting here.  I figured it may be easier for anyone replying to be able to reference his older posts, that details what kinds of help he's gotten in the past (otherwise, the same questions will be asked again and again):

http://www.medhelp.org/personal_pages/user/4952506

To be honest, we've been back and forth with him so much, and it gets a little frustrating, as nothing ever is really accomplished, because he's "stuck" in his thinking, and IMO, he doesn't try real hard (if at all) to address that.

I hope you come back to post Matt, and explain the username thing.  Actually, MH has a rule against creating multiple ids.  If you want to CHANGE your username, you can talk to the mods.  They will help you.  Use either of these links:

http://www.medhelp.org/contactus.htm

http://www.medhelp.org/forums/show/110?camp=msc

[Cary12345]

Are you treatment
Did you meet a psychiatrist ?

[nursegirl6572]

Matt, why did you create a new id?

[ZeldaAdmirer]

In conclusion, I would like to say, again, that I have depression and severe chronic anhedonia (emotional numbness) in which I have no brief moments of any pleasure to any degree whatsoever and there is nothing good or worthwhile about me or my life anymore.  If I choose to do things in my life anyway, I will feel enraged due to the fact that none of these things are actually good in my life and that will make me feel even more enraged towards my loss (absence) of pleasure.  Therefore, I will instead let me, my life, and all my dreams waste away because at least that makes me feel less enraged and less depressed towards myself and my life.  My anhedonia has lasted all day everyday for many months now and I don't think it will get any better.  I am also an atheist and this makes me feel even more enraged since I am unable to experience pleasure both in this life as well as in an eternal life of joy which would be heaven (which I now know is a false promised afterlife).