fordyce's condition/hpv problem (lip line - white bumps/redness)

hi everybody, this is my first time posting here, although i have read through different forums for a couple of months now and have found this site extremely helpful.

ok so here is my problem: about 4 or 5 months ago i contracted hpv. i wasnt completely sure i actually contracted it until a couple months ago when i noticed a wart in my genital area and had it frozen off. this whole ordeal, although it stressed me out a lot, went relatively smoothly.

however, the thing is, that about a month after i believe i contracted hpv, i noticed two small white dots on the border of my top lip. i assumed they were just white heads because i have had semi-frequent pimples on the borders of my lips before. So i put some tazorac on them to cure the problem. however all that happened was a real pimple showed up right next to the dots, got big, popped, and went away leaving a slight scar. while the pimple got big, the two dots seemed to fade away, but after the pimple went away the dots came back. so now i have these two white dots on the edge of my lip on top of a scar that is a little darker than the color of my lips.

I was worried for a while that they could be the beginnings of warts on my lips, but judging from the what i have read and from the fact that i did not engage in oral sex with my partner, i doubt this is the case. My dermatologist took a very brief look at them and said they are either clogged pores or sebaceous glands. Then when he saw the sebaceous glands actually on my lips (which i'm absolutely sure is fordyce's condition) he said they're probably just more sebaceous glands and there is nothing i can do about them.

however in this last month or so i have noticed many more of these small white dots appearing along the edges of my lips and a little above. i wasnt too worried at first but then they became more and more visible, and started having lots of redness around them, which is the worst part, making them even more visible. this is causing me to start to doubt that these dots are sebaceous glands.

they seem to be worse after i wash my face or if i stretch my lips a lot or anything like that, and sometimes appear very oily and shiny. i find at times the red area seems to sting/burn until i pat it down with a paper towel.

they seem to blend into my lip more and not be as visible when i drink LOTS of water, right after sleeping, or when i drink alcohol.

i apologize for the length of this post, but i thought it would be best to include as much information as possible in order to clear up any vagueness or over generalizations of conditions.

if anyone has experienced anything like this, please let me know what has worked/not worked for you, or your ideas on what it might be?

i am assuming that the timing of these bumps and the hpv are just coincidence, but if there is any reason they may be connected, i am open to hearing it.

again, i apologize for the length, but hopefully some of you can relate and we can help each other out. i wish good health to all of you, thanks.

[techno72]

I've been reading more and more posts and I'm convinced this is a viral condition that just isn't recognized as contagious.  I contracted mine 18 years ago from an 18 y/o male and since have given it to two people orally and one vaginally.  I feel like a leper!  Nobody in their right mind will kiss me, so the partners I find are all basket-cases.  I keep to myself anymore until I can find a dermatologist that's open-minded enough to consider that Fordyce is a common misdiagnoses for a small white pus filled lesion that's likely caused by a member of the HPV family.  I know what oil glands look like and they aren't contagious. Please, please, somebody do some research into this!  

[luljul]

I have the same stuff on my lips. I also think that this contagious because the dots were noticed when I started to meet with my husband; he has them on the same area as you do...

[jperr]

i also have these little bumps on my lips and my daughter that is 2 years old has it also..i was told that it was fox fordyce and that it could be taken off by laser surgery but the scaring afterwords may be bad..i dontknow what to do about it...ive tryed all the over the couner creams diaper rash creams cold sore creams even facial scrub to try to open pores ....i feel ya! this *****!

[pompano]

can i see a picture of it?

[aluire]

techno72, I noticed your post on another hpv forum and wanted to add to your comments.

I too got these dots, showing up a few days after giving an unprotected ** to a guy in his 30s. I've never had them before, or if so never to this degree. Though they look exactly like the Fordcye's spots shown in online images and described by others (small, white, more apparent when stretching skin, more thickly clustered around the corners of the lip), it's hard to believe it's just a sebaceous gland considering they cropped up right after direct contact with another's sexual organ.

techno72, in your other comments on hpvfaq.org you mentioned that harsh skin abrasion seems to be a factor in the transmission. The day I performed that fateful act I had lip chapping and had put vaseline on. My upper lip was especially bothersome and I scrubbed away a lining of dead skin. Perhaps this is why my upper lip is "infected" and my lower lip isn't, but it seems a majority of online commenters with this complaint are similar in only the upper lip being affected. If this is HPV, wouldn't it be transmitted to the lower lip at least occasionally?

It was 6 weeks ago when I contracted these things, and they aren't going away. Right where my upper lip hits the skin of the lower lip there are nasty clusters of these white protrusions, much smaller and more tightly packed, looking almost like very small, short tentacles growing outward in a similar direction, as when hair is brushed. One of the clusters has redness around it. The look of these white things is similar to the wart growth I've seen on warts I've gotten elsewhere on my body. I think I would have to go to a dermatologist and not ask but demand that a biopsy be taken on some flaked-off skin from the lip to test whether it's a strain of HPV. I might do that some day, but for now it's stress and worry as with you.

[aluire]

Some other comments since this is a web hot topic asked by many but unreliably answered.

I mentioned above that "right where my upper lip hits the skin of the lower lip there are nasty clusters of these white protrusions, much smaller and more tightly packed, looking almost like very small, short tentacles growing outward in a similar direction, as when hair is brushed."

Those suspicious looking growths are fairly widespread without distinct borders - and a distinct border is apparently a characteristic of an HPV growth.  

Anyway, here is a picture of oral "verruca vulgaris" growth on someone's gums

http://img.medscape.com/pi/emed/ckb/dermatology/1048885-1079920-3327.jpg
source: http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1079920-overview

On the top and corners of my lip the white dots are diffuse and look exactly like other medical images of Fordyce's spots found on medical sites and personal submitted images. But the white dots near my inner lip have that suspicious verruca wart-like growth, very much like the above picture but on a smaller scale and not quite as tightly packed. They are not protruding outward yet, though the growths don't seem to be slowing or reversing to normal so it freaks me out.

Another write-up on oral HPV describes "Squamous papilloma" growths as "the most common epithelial neoplasm in the mouth and is typically seen on the lingual frenum, lips, palate, and buccal mucosa." It goes on, "The lesion has fine finger-like projections resembling a sea anemone or it may show a more cauliflower configuration." Sea anemone, or my characterization, tentacles ... oh crap.
source: http://www.cda.org/library/cda_member/pubs/journal/jour1200/pap.html

-Perhaps all the dots on my (and many of your) lips are HPV related after all.
-Or perhaps the Fordyce's spots just came up at the same time as HPV growth on my inner lip.
-Or perhaps (most favorably) it's all just completely benign untransmittable Fordyce's granules that just HAPPENED to show up after giving a man oral sex.

I have serious doubts about this last option. This seems to be an STD. Someone with this issue who had a biopsy done should report, as the many topics online about these elusive white dots, often cropping up after risky sex, provide no reassuring answers.

[dudejr]

I think I have the same condition, and I'm concerned its HPV as well.  I contracted the genital wart strain of HPV around the same time I noticed the bumps (even though I used protection).  I think I performed oral as well.  Now I have a small cluster of white bumps on the inside of my upper lip towards the corners.  It seemed to spread a little bit at first if I can recall correctly, then remain seemingly stagnant at some point.  

However, its about 3 months later.  Now my lips often feel constantly chapped, and I think it may be causing swelling on the center of my upper lip, where it is more visible.  I'm hoping its not a wart forming on my actual lip, just constant swelling, cause as you said, it seems to go away with water, alcohol, after sleep, or when i put on some cortisone.  Im starting to freak and out and this is causing me a lot of stress.  It was much more manageable when it was hard to see.  

I am wondering if anyone has had any follow up with this topic to further determine what was wrong, or if anyone has had any successful treatment.  Further, does anyone know if there are any effective treatments for oral HPV.  It seems like a lot have people in this thread have verified  my suspicions, but no one has offered a remedy, or follow up, which is what I think most people who stumble on to this are looking for.

someone help!! :(

[tsarius]

I too have these horrible white spots on my lips. I got them from my not so faithful lover. He had them first then a few months later I got them and now my five year old daughter has them. I've had them for five months now and since I noticed them have been trying to get a diagnosis. I know they are very contagious since my five year old got them and my lips constantly are chapped and so are my daughters. They are more noticeable when the lips are stretched ans they are only on the top lip.my dermatologist said it could be a fungus so I used the medicine she gave me and they never went away. So then I went to a family doctor and she called another doctor in the room to look and they were both completely stumped. She gave me a steroid to try and it didn't work. So then I went to my dentist and he thinks they are fordyce granules. The only problem is fordyce isn't contagious although my lips do look similar to the fordyce pics. Along with the white bumps on my lips I started getting little white ulcers in my mouth and muscle twitches all over my body that are worse during my time of the month. They all came at the same time and that was when I trusted and tried to work things out with the idiot I was with. The only problem now is that I've gotton three different diagnosis but nobody is real sure and I'm wasting money left and right just to end up at a dead end street. I'm scared everyday and even seperate my silverware and toothbrushes from my other two kids because I don't want them to get this mystery diagnosis too. I'm sad because I won't kiss my kids and I feel like my lips are so ugly.these little things changed my life forever. If anyone has any luck please post back on here so I can at least now what's going on thanks

[tsarius]

I too have these horrible white spots on my lips. I got them from my not so faithful lover. He had them first then a few months later I got them and now my five year old daughter has them. I've had them for five months now and since I noticed them have been trying to get a diagnosis. I know they are very contagious since my five year old got them and my lips constantly are chapped and so are my daughters. They are more noticeable when the lips are stretched ans they are only on the top lip.my dermatologist said it could be a fungus so I used the medicine she gave me and they never went away. So then I went to a family doctor and she called another doctor in the room to look and they were both completely stumped. She gave me a steroid to try and it didn't work. So then I went to my dentist and he thinks they are fordyce granules. The only problem is fordyce isn't contagious although my lips do look similar to the fordyce pics. Along with the white bumps on my lips I started getting little white ulcers in my mouth and muscle twitches all over my body that are worse during my time of the month. They all came at the same time and that was when I trusted and tried to work things out with the idiot I was with. The only problem now is that I've gotton three different diagnosis but nobody is real sure and I'm wasting money left and right just to end up at a dead end street. I'm scared everyday and even seperate my silverware and toothbrushes from my other two kids because I don't want them to get this mystery diagnosis too. I'm sad because I won't kiss my kids and I feel like my lips are so ugly.these little things changed my life forever. If anyone has any luck please post back on here so I can at least now what's going on thanks

[Keep_On_Keeping_On]

I'm a 30 yo man. I have the dots too. They look EXACTLY like Fordyce's spot but aren't, I can claim the same progression of the condition as previous posters:
In september of 2010 I had sex with a girl who was a little aggressive and bit my lips too hard / ran her tongue deep in my mouth. I had what I would consider sore in my roof palate a few days later, that I attributed to my eating extremely hot/spicy noodles, but it might have been that my sensitivity was accentuated due to the condition morphing. The next couple of weeks my lips went through extreme dryness and peeled continually, particularly the upper lip. At the time I attributed it to the harsh dry climate conditions (tibetan desert.)
A few dots showed up. I looked it up and found out about Fordyce's spots, thought of it no more and figured "hey I'm getting old, it happens." They aren't the first thing you notice, but on closer inspection they are clearly there. They appear to form an under-layer directly under the surface. They appear clearly when stretching the lips. Furthermore they appear in the inner cheek layer in my mouth, where the dark red / clear white contrast makes them more obvious.
Disclaimer: I had genital HPV before this. I'm looking into those white spots and believe the OP when he says this is an underlying CONTAGIOUS disease. My theory is that skin has to be broken for this to take root in the inner membrane of the mouth. My fear is that it might slowly spread to all of one's skin, adding rough patches. I am calling it contagious because this is a condition which I was entirely clear of prior to it showing up. It is a rather extreme change from a "always healthy" upper lip to one that looks like it has been exposed to a dry wind for 2 hours continuously. Add to that the awkward looking white patches on the lip (that if stretched are made of white dots) and I'd rather it have the "dry lip" look than the more noticeable "hydrated but visible patches on lips" look.

To doctors and others who are like me doubting their condition:
REALIZE that AIDS was unheard of until 1981 (http://treasuresoftheinternet.org/health/aids/intro/aids_intro.shtml)
New diseases can be discovered even NOW that no doctor have a prior knowledge of. Share your story with others, append your experience, and only when enough have done so will we have people actually pay attention to the issue. If you are a doctor, ask your peers about the condition.

[jeffrey514]

I have the exact same experience as all of you.  It started with a white dot on my top lip after kissing a gay guy when I was 18 (He was also 18). It has slowly spread along my top lip since then.  Now 17 years later I just learned to live with it. It looks bad under certain light.  If my lips are hydrated the white dots are more noticable so I prefer the dry look too but they do feel more chronically chapped and dry. I also concluded that it is an HPV that my healthy immune system is controlling but not completely.  I know it would be diagnosed as fordcythe but am sure its some kind of viral transformation based on the fact that it appeared a month after kissing and has been spreading slowly ever since, likely ...it would be great to come up with a treatment for it...is there any research??  The other thing I noticed is that ton of people have it and i think its pretty much unavoidable if you are a normal human being doing normal human being things like kissing. i still get great modeling gigs and its not the end of the world, but really would be nice to treat!! a good starting point would be to look for HPV genes in tissue biopsies from the site.  I don't think you need more than a scratch of skin to get results from a PCR reaction...why isnt this being done? it coudl be related to cancers etc...