ketones w/normal bgs

[Anne0]

I'm a type 1- use a Cozmo pump. I need some clarification on the subject of ketones(and just under what circumstances they are "dangerous." Say you've got a stomach ache, and are running blood sugars between 150-400. Testing urinary ketones (large- 300 mg/dl plus) and small (under 200). Never quite getting rid of the ketones. I know a blood sugar of 150 is not going to put you into DKA but surely its not good to have any ketones at all. I don't ever vomit(even when I've had extremily high bgs) so thats not a very good indicator. My doc says"well, if you've really high bgs, high ketones, and are puking fluids- then, you should get to the ER". When I get ketones- the last thing I feel like is drinking or eating caloric fluids.(because my stomach hurts)Are ketones not dangerous, if one doesn't have bouncing bgs? (high-normal, high-normal..) if a type 1 were trying to lose weight- and running normal blood sugars ketones wouldn't be dangerous? (I'm not trying to lose weight, just trying to understand this)
thanks!

[fullmergavin]

There is an alternative approach to some of this that I've only learned about recently. As ridiculous as this might sound, if you would ever be able to convince a police department to test your breath for alcohol, and/or find a (legitimite) distributor of alcohol testing devices online, it might not hurt to try to confirm whether or not you are registering any alcohol in your system, believe it or not.

Sidney Baker, MD, one of the better medical authors in the business, writes about an account of an airline pilot that crashed a plane in his latest book. After the crash, his blood tested positive for alcohol, but eye witnesses confirmed that he had not been drinking anything at all previous to the flight. (IE-a classic example of the works of fermentation)

The medical explanation for this phenomenon was blamed on dysbiosis, which, in elementary terms I guess, is an overgrowth of the lower GI's natural inhabitants (Bacterias, etc), which can occur quite easily w/ an overall lack of oxygen available to the system, believe it or not.

Beyond the keto acidosis that's observed in diabetes, there are four other events that have been known to cause the build up of ketones in both diabetics and non diabetics-
#1)Alcohol
#2)Low Carb, High Protein Diets
#3)Exercise
#4)Long standing illness

Unless you're exercising eight hours a day, I would very much doubt that the on going presence of ketones would ever be related to your exercise habbits (Unless you're doing your urine test everyday within a 2-3 hour of exercising).

If you're doing an "Atkins like diet," that could be doing this, too.

The alcohol/illness factors might be related. The recent studies confirming for the misguided Zonulin activity in both Type 1 Diabetics and those with Celiac Sprue all but confirms that the base roots of this condition has something to do with intestinal permeability. Such should also prove that some type of defect in either xylitol (Xylose) itself, or that of the xylanase inhibitor is at work in some of this (I'm assuming that some here have heard of the "Mannatech" company-this concept plays right into their back door).

The bottomline is that if all else fails, and your alk phosphate, bilirubin, LDH, albumin and creatine levels are normal, as crazy as it may sound, this might be an option for you to explore.

There are literally thousands of web articles available dealing with intestinal dysbiosis/permeability. I would suggest that you explore a few of those, and if need be, secure some sort of an alcohol test to see whether or not this type of situation might be at work in your situation?

If all of that comes up blank, it would be my best guess that you're deficient in one or two of the B vitamins, those dealing with carb metabolism-B1, B2, B6, and Biotin, mainly.

I'm not a medical doc-please don't take this to be medical advise whatsoever~. Talk to your own doc about your options asap.

[Christina McCurdy]

I guess maybe i have gotten used to feeling bad? I dont know? When the Ketones get really high, i get really sick, like with DKA.

[Anne0]

thanks for your comments. I've always heard you test for ketones when you aren't well, until they're gone.. I just don't get it. Its hard to tell the differance between a stomach bug and the ketone/high bg deal. If I get a high-and ketones, (that don't go away when I get my bg down) I guess it is more of a illness.
Christina- you don't feel sick when you have ketones? I always feel bad when I get ketones.

[Christina McCurdy]

Oh, i forgot to mention, i am on a pump as well. Minimed. Maybe that has something to do with it?
I AM trying to lose weight though, lol.

[Christina McCurdy]

I dont have an answer for you, but i did want to let you know you are not alone. I have had (recently) really good bloodsugars, but I continue to have Ketones as well. I see a nephrologist every 3 months and my endo. every three months, neither have voiced any concern about this. i am not saying you dont have anything to worry about by any means, i am just saying you are not alone.
I hope you get your answer, and if you do, post it, i want to know too.
Have a wonderful Christmas!!!
Christina

[JDRF-Team-LRS]

Anne,
As you may know, we're volunteers here & not medical professionals.  The presence of ketones and what they signal can vary by individuals, so your endocrinologist is the best person to discuss this with.  

Ketones can build up for a number of reasons.  Basically, our metabolism is out of whack when we build urine ketones.  If that continues and our kidneys can't flush the ketones from our bodies, ketones can build in our blood and that is very dangerous.

Intermittent ketones due to illness is not surprising and your doc's guildelines are precisely aimed at preventing buildup of ketones in your blood (which would make you feel nauseaus and worse).  To help flush ketones from our system, we need to take on more non-caloric fluid.

Sometimes we can produce ketones when we exercise (similar to the weight-loss presence of ketones) and yet we shouldn't be exercising when our BG is above about 200.  It can also take some time (hours) for ketones to pass ... So, if you had an episdoe that caused you to create ketones, it might be several hours 'til you take on enuf fluid and your body re-balances until your urine is free from ketones.

I'm also a Cozmo pumper.  I'm interested in why you test for ketones when you're well.  It wouldn't occur to me to do that (tho' there might be good reasons to, I just don't know).  I haven't answered your question, but perhaps I've given you ideas to discuss with your medical team.