Acidifying urine

Jake will be put on a food to acidify his urine (which is loaded with crystals and very alkaline).  

Anyone who has experience with this--can he take vitaminC to help acidify his urine, too?  How much (he's 65 pounds) should he take, if he can take it at all?  Cranberry tablets?  Might they help, too?

Any recipes for treats to make to help with this?  (he can only eat the special food, NO EXTRA TREATS AT ALL).  Someone mentioned there might be recipes you can make that will not interfere with his treatment.

Thanks.

[have 2 kids]

When Alex had this problem we were told not to give him anything else.     I'm not positive  but I thought I read somewhere that you shouldn't give vitamin's to dogs.  

[BabaluandOtis2]

Hi,
I had a Dal who had this yrs ago. It was so bad he needed emergency surgery to remove the blocked stones.

He had to be on a script diet too. But if I remember correctly there were also prescription treats available...I think it was thru Science Diet. But of course this was many yrs ago, I would think they now may have other options.
You should really google "canine urine crystals" there is a wealth of info on the net about it, and what you can do to prevent it in the future.
I would also look in the major pet stores for foods/treats that are made for this. I know I've seen some while perusing those isles.
Of course they are more pricey, as usual. But you might find some recipes online for the crystals.
I believe w/ the crystals that too much protein is a problem.
Good Luck with your baby ; )

[peekawho]

I have been googling my heart out.  I haven't found any treats today at Petsmart or Petco that are specifically for this.

The diet is Hills c/d.  

Too much protein, too much phosporus, and too much magnesium.  

[BabaluandOtis2]

There are quite a few conflicting articles about the Hills brand online. Some say the foods by other more premium companies are better, such as Innova and Wellness.

It's so confusing for us owners to know what to do!!

Basically I would research the ingredients that are causes of stones and research ingredients that are good for them and read the ingredients on the specialty treats in the stores, as they do carry many now for special diets. Also I would look online for treats/foods that can be ordered.
Or even research people foods that are used for people w/kidney stones etc..and maybe there is a people food  you can use as a treat instead?
I did that when I had a diabetic baby, I bought him cookies that human diabetics can have. At that time there was basically nothing for dogs w/ diabetes. I also bought a human diabetic cook book and made foods/treats for him with that.
So maybe there are cook books w/ recipes for people who have urinary stones too?

Good luck in your search ; )

[peekawho]

Innova and Wellness have prescription foods?   Hills c/d is a prescription food, specifically formulated to make the urine acid, to dissolve stones and help with crystal formation.

[Me967]

Hi there.  This may get alittle long, I just want to make sure that I'm as clear as I can be.  It's been awhile.

Urinary tract disease is associated with the build-up of crystals and stones in the urinary tract that can cause painful and bloody urination and potential blockage in your dog as I'm sure you already know. One type of crystal that forms in a dog’s urinary tract is called struvite.  Hince is why they probably put him on the c/d.

"Prescription Diet® c/d® dog food is formulated specifically to provide nutritional management of dogs with struvite-related urinary tract disease. they have reduced levels of magnesium and phosphorus, and also produces an acid urine pH to aid in the management of struvite crystals and stones."

If you want to make treats for him make them out of your c/d food by putting some in a bowl and let it soak up some water.  Make it into a dough like consistency.  Place the treats on an ungreased cookie sheet and bake in the oven at ~300 degrees for about 30 minutes or until they look like cookies that are done.  They won't be as healthy as the fresh food because the food is altered by heat, but I'm sure Jake will not mind.  I have done this for mine.

Urinary Acidifiers:  Struvite stones form in alkaline urine. You would use medications that acidify the urine hoping they will keep the magnesium ammonium phosphate crystals dissolved and prevent them from precipitating out in the urine. Examples of such medications would be ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) and dl-methionine. Some of the other less common types of stones actually form in an acidic urine, so with these, you would want to make the urine more alkaline. To counter the activity of urease that is produced by the bacteria, we may also use a compound called acetohydroxamic acid. It prevents urease from breaking the urea down into ammonium and carbon dioxide molecules and this can, in some cases, greatly reduce struvite formation. Remember:

Do NOT give urinary acidifiers when you are using one of the specialty diets that also acidify urine though.  This is very important to know.

Hill's has slightly increased the sodium chloride (normal table salt) to increase water consumption by the animal, thereby increasing a flushing action through the bladder and better keeping the crystals in solution.  You want Jake to drink plenty of fluids to flush out the crystals.  You don't want to add salt though because there is a risk that too much can cause heart and kidney disease issues.  Did they say if they would have to flush his bladder?  

I personally would not give him anything except the c/d for now.  If he get's to much protein or if you acidify his diet to much (which is easy to do) then your going to be in the same boat only with different type stones.

I don't know if this helped or not, just thought I would put in my 2 cents.  Sorry I sorta got carried away.

Take Care;  Amy

[peekawho]

Amy!  Thanks so much!  This is exactly the information I wanted.  

He's doing well.  I've already gotten his urine pH down to 6.5.  It was 8.  He loves the food, and I'm going to make cookies for him tomorrow out of your recipe!  He misses his treats.

He had tripleP and amorphous crystals.

He's going to have a full urinalysis in 2 weeks, to see where we are, plus a bladder xray.  He's starting to drink a lot more water, which has me slightly worried...he has these cycles where he just starts drinking gallons of water for no reason.  They've pretty much ruled out anything physical, except this last time when he did it, he had another UTI.  For the most part, they think its a psychological "drinking" problem.  

Figures I'd have a dog with a drinking problem, eh?

[Me967]

Peek.  Hey there,  glad to hear back from you.  I didn't realize I had made it so long and was a little nervous about that.  

It sounds like your vet is being very thorough.  I'm glad to hear that the pH is going down.  The best range for most dogs is between 5-6 so that's great.  Just curious, was his other results good on the u/a?  Did they say anything else was showing up?  Example: glucose, protein, bld, etc.  Bayer sells the multistix 10SG for home urinalysis at most drug stores.  I keep them in at home to keep tabs on my guys.  Then if I have anything out of whack with them I take in so they can re check it and spin it down.  

LOL on the drinking issue.  ha ha ha; nevertheless, it is a good thing that he is drinking and congrats on him liking the food.   That is an issue with a lot of dogs.  Your totally right on not giving him anything else but that food now.  I had to learn alot about making food special for my dog with MG out of what she could and could not have.  
You can also give a frozen treats by soaking a wee bit of food in water and putting it into a ice cube tray.  I have 3 trays in my freezer at all times for each that have different diets with there names on the trays.  I started that for one of my dogs years ago that had issues with high temps and I could not get him to drink when he was down.  Now I just give them as summer treats.  

Keep me posted and Take care;  Amy

[peekawho]

Amy, I am using the Multistix 10 on him at work to check a couple times a week.  Nothing else showing up right now, negative for everything.  SG is 1.012 at last check.

When he first got this last UTI, he was drinking so much that his SG was 1.001!!!!  They of course did a full UA, but at that specific gravity there was nothing to be seen due to the dilution.

It wasn't until he completed his month on antibiotics that his SG went to 1.040, and they could then see the crystals on the spun urine.

I'm gonna soak the food and make biscuits right now.  He'll love it.

[Me967]

Peek,  hi there.

As far as him drinking alot it seems that dogs are smarter than us concerning their health out of instinct. As far as the "psychogenic water consumption" I'm not sure.????    Actually Ok I'll say it ...I disagree with your vet here.  

If he done that all the time maybe; but, it seems to be at times when he is having certain issues.  Refer back to smarter than us sometimes.  LOL.  

Since you are already collecting his urine, make sure to take note of color and odor.  Since he is drinking alot, is he urinating a lot too?  

As to your question on adding any extra pills or anything to his diet though; I would not.  His pH is almost within normal range now which is 5-6.  I would keep him on a strict diet of just his food.  Make treats out of food and keep him on this diet.  That is just my personal thing though.  

The best places to search is where they have done actual research but they debate a lot on this from one study to the next.  That is why I said I would probably not try it.  The food sounds like it's doing the trick for now.  Let me know how his appointment goes. I imagine they have already palpated his bladder and done a rectal exam for the evaluation of the urethra and prostate issues.  I don't know what other test they done but, I would make sure that you have a full eval. of serum chemistries, including BUN, creatinine, calcium, phosphorus, and serum electrolytes.  This will help them in there diagnostic information.  Though you hate to look at issues like that it's better to know.

It sounds like he will be fine.  Your doing great. And I know your a very good mom to your kids.  

Your Friend,  Amy

[Me967]

Got me thinking now.

If there is not any other issues on the stip you may be able to rule out renal issues.  Dobes are great (I hate to say) for kidney issues.  Age noted.  The blood work listed above mainly is renal related in which should be run (to be on the safe side)   I got to thinking about the drinking issue.  I'm not sure now cause I don't have time to look up but.  

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp

If you go to the link above type in:   Nephrogenic Diabetes Insipidus
It is more of a hormanal (sp. check) issue than in the diabetes most people think of.   You can add things by placing a ,    Ex.  Nephrorogenic Diabaetes Insipidus, high pH, fluid intake, bla bla bla and it will highlight your words in the book.
Anyhow, this will cause excessive drinking in which will leave the urine dilute.  DO NOT TRY testing by pulling water away though on your own.  This could be very dangerous.  Let him drink as much fresh water he wants.   Hope the vet can give you some better answers.

Sorry Gotta run, I will check back later.

[peekawho]

Still maintaining ph of 6.5.

Doc thinks no to diabetes insipidus.  He can concentrate urine when he's not drinking.  We're going to keep watching, which is fine by me.  Bladder xray when I get back from vacation, and going to spin another urine.

Jake loves his cookies!  THANK YOU so much for the "recipe".  He missed his treats.  I make them every few days now.

[patsadie]

Hi  I have a 7 yr old lab on Hill's cd. Her urine is still around 7ph consistently and most recently she has developed cholesterol deposits in her eyes. I have read that too much fat in the diet can cause them. Is there any other food out there that is available to acidify urine. We feed only 3/4 cup twice a day to keep her weight constant. Have also read trying a fish based diet rather than chicken. We are feeding the kibble not the canned. I am planning on having a full blood panel done to make sure there aren't other problems.

[ginger899]

You could definitely try a cranberry supplement for your dog. This can be bought as capsules. A little apple cider vinegar either added to food or water can help too. But ask your vet about this. Cranberry is your best bet. It might be easier to buy one specially formulated for dogs, to get the correct dosage.