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Can too long toe nails make a dog chew his feet?
I have hit this subject before, and have used Hot Spot treatment, Medicated bath (including washing feet with a wash cloth and Med Shampoo every day), Bitter Lime lick deterrent, chewy toy/food, and limited diet being some of the subject areas.
The dog is a 9 year old (estimate/rescue) Westie and has a beautiful coat, some ongoing battle with Yeast infection. His feet have varied over the last couple of months form no problem to large hair loss and bright red skin above a nail or two on a given foot. When I stop him from licking/chewing the skin is wet and very clearly irritated.
I have yet to get a good session of nail trimming but have used nippers to cut the "thumb" inside nails that do not touch the ground. They had grown enough to have a serious curl. At the present I can see the nails touch the floor when he is standing still. He also slips some, which may also be due to hair between his pads.
He has had a "professional" grooming and nail cut about 4 months ago. He does some outside free-dog activities including running after White Tail Deer, but on grass, not hard surfaces. He does not care much for walking in town on a leash, so little sidewalk nail trimming is done.
Where am I? Yes, my question, could his nails be what is attracting his attention to licking and chewing on his feet? Again, not all feet, and not the same feet. He does rest well, and when I stop him from licking he usually just goes back to resting/sleeping. This suggests to me nothing is burning even when he gets it all read. The "Hot Spot" liquid I put on the area doesn't seem to sting much, he would let me know.
Tips of nail trimming welcome. I have new snips and a dremel durm sander for nails... I think I need a muzzle too. He will let me touch his feet, even cut/sand a nail or two, but he starts to object, and he will strike out with an open mouth, he has not yet bitten me. I have looked at muzzles at Petsmart, but didn't find a simple "Velcro" belt type which I think would work best, simple and easy to put on, he will let my place my hand around his muzzle.
The dog is a 9 year old (estimate/rescue) Westie and has a beautiful coat, some ongoing battle with Yeast infection. His feet have varied over the last couple of months form no problem to large hair loss and bright red skin above a nail or two on a given foot. When I stop him from licking/chewing the skin is wet and very clearly irritated.
I have yet to get a good session of nail trimming but have used nippers to cut the "thumb" inside nails that do not touch the ground. They had grown enough to have a serious curl. At the present I can see the nails touch the floor when he is standing still. He also slips some, which may also be due to hair between his pads.
He has had a "professional" grooming and nail cut about 4 months ago. He does some outside free-dog activities including running after White Tail Deer, but on grass, not hard surfaces. He does not care much for walking in town on a leash, so little sidewalk nail trimming is done.
Where am I? Yes, my question, could his nails be what is attracting his attention to licking and chewing on his feet? Again, not all feet, and not the same feet. He does rest well, and when I stop him from licking he usually just goes back to resting/sleeping. This suggests to me nothing is burning even when he gets it all read. The "Hot Spot" liquid I put on the area doesn't seem to sting much, he would let me know.
Tips of nail trimming welcome. I have new snips and a dremel durm sander for nails... I think I need a muzzle too. He will let me touch his feet, even cut/sand a nail or two, but he starts to object, and he will strike out with an open mouth, he has not yet bitten me. I have looked at muzzles at Petsmart, but didn't find a simple "Velcro" belt type which I think would work best, simple and easy to put on, he will let my place my hand around his muzzle.
He's so lucky to have had you adopt him! It's very obvious how much you care about him, if only we could get inside their heads and be able to figure them out!
One thing to watch with groomers is that, while you DO want them to remove any unnecessary hair from under the pads so that he has good traction, you don't want them to clip the hair between the toes too closely, because when it begins to grow back, it's going to poke him in that between-the-toe sensitive area, which could irritate him and exacerbate the foot-chewing to a whole NEW level. I know, damned if you do and damned if you don't.
I can't help but feel, from what you have written in your posts, that a lot, if not most of the licking behavior is a nervous behavior/attention getter. You have to remember that animals don't rationalize things the way humans do. If they want attention, ANY attention will suffice. In that respect, negative attention holds just as much value for them as positive attention, so if he gets your attention by licking his feet, even if you are scolding him for doing it, he GOT your attention, so in his mind, the foot licking worked. That's one of the reasons I suggested speaking with a behaviorist, to see what you can do with regard to the behavior, how you can act toward him (or not act toward him) that will make the licking behavior unproductive for him (as long as, of course, it IS a psychologically based behavior and not a physiologically based one). At first, I thought that perhaps you could get a Kong and stuff it with cream cheese or peanut butter and "trade" him the Kong for his toes if he starts licking, but if he IS licking for attention, then he might interpret the action as "oh boy! all I have to do is lick my feet and I get YUMMIES!" and then you've REALLY got a problem because he'll have himself chewed raw looking for treats.
At he's one of the luckiest pups to be adopted in recent memory, IMO, having you in his corner. Whatever his problem is, I know you will eventually get to the bottom of it because doing what is best for him is clearly #1 on your list.
Ghilly
One thing to watch with groomers is that, while you DO want them to remove any unnecessary hair from under the pads so that he has good traction, you don't want them to clip the hair between the toes too closely, because when it begins to grow back, it's going to poke him in that between-the-toe sensitive area, which could irritate him and exacerbate the foot-chewing to a whole NEW level. I know, damned if you do and damned if you don't.
I can't help but feel, from what you have written in your posts, that a lot, if not most of the licking behavior is a nervous behavior/attention getter. You have to remember that animals don't rationalize things the way humans do. If they want attention, ANY attention will suffice. In that respect, negative attention holds just as much value for them as positive attention, so if he gets your attention by licking his feet, even if you are scolding him for doing it, he GOT your attention, so in his mind, the foot licking worked. That's one of the reasons I suggested speaking with a behaviorist, to see what you can do with regard to the behavior, how you can act toward him (or not act toward him) that will make the licking behavior unproductive for him (as long as, of course, it IS a psychologically based behavior and not a physiologically based one). At first, I thought that perhaps you could get a Kong and stuff it with cream cheese or peanut butter and "trade" him the Kong for his toes if he starts licking, but if he IS licking for attention, then he might interpret the action as "oh boy! all I have to do is lick my feet and I get YUMMIES!" and then you've REALLY got a problem because he'll have himself chewed raw looking for treats.
At he's one of the luckiest pups to be adopted in recent memory, IMO, having you in his corner. Whatever his problem is, I know you will eventually get to the bottom of it because doing what is best for him is clearly #1 on your list.
Ghilly
A Behaviorist, wow... I think I may need Counseling or a Psychiatric myself over this adoption - we know it was not a foster arrangement, but maybe he doesn't.
While he is not a lap dog, he clearly loves affection and rarely stays in a place if all the people move to another room. When we both (all) leave the house for an hour or two (not very often we are both retired) we usually find him asleep (he is near deaf so we can enter the house without waking him) when we enter and find him near a door - either the one we left through or the front door.
A constant effort to stop him from licking, with recognition of the real "need" to lick feet when he comes in from a wet outside, and use of an Elizabethan-Collar plus the addition of a chewy appear to be producing results. I have on several occasions in the first two or three days of use of the E-Collar have interrupted he licking/chewing with a forced installation of the Collar This collar is a nice fit and with his bushy hair around the neck I am able to slip it on and it will stay without any ties. As I may have mentioned he immediately becomes very solicitace with close contact, including running into me with the collar edge, and the big sad eyes. This passes and within an hour or two I find a reason to remove the collar, e.g., to let him go outside, or eat a meal. Right now this morning he has just come in from outside, had a light breakfast (kibble with fish oil and splash of hot water) he is resting and not licking... albeit, he did lick for perhaps one minute on the front two paws, nothing on the rear.
This problem has been going on for at least a month, where he lost much hair and the toes become red and irritated, not all 4, but as many as 3 at a time. Right now his two rear are recovering from that condition, his front are beginning to look more normal..they do heal when the licking stops. I also use a hot spot treatment, but less now, licking is the problem.
I tried a couple of bitters, one undefined in an antiseptic spray by Adams (Walmart) and Bitter Lime by 4 Paws, it had the best customer evaluations on Amazon of all the bitter sprays. It appeared to have no affect. The physical collar barrier, some chewy interest (he doesn't "love" them but any chewing is time well spent - I have taken to dropping on in his water dish, he will immediately fish it out and chew for a while, but not eat it all at once).
We will discuss the paw licking with the vet on his annual check up. I think I'll take him to a groomer first. I think my wife will let me try Petsmart - he has been groomed twice so far by independent grooms - a bit more expensive with variable results. That will include a nail trim, and I will confirm trimming of hair between the paws, and I will ask for an opinion on his scent sacs. The young lady groomers I talked with strike be as "too young", but at my age almost everyone strikes me that way. I will take a very careful look at the trim job and then start using the new muzzle and dremel to see if I can maintain them. I will try once a week unless I can not see growth in that period.
Oh, yes, I have tried more walks to a lower meadow on our property, this often includes an opportunity for him to run after some Canada Geese which he seems to enjoy - break the boredom, I hope. Again, he is not interested in long walks in new territory on a leash. He also has dog house guests a few times a year. That is a large GoldenDoodle and a medium size LabraDoodle (3/4 poodle). They usually stay with us for 3 days/nights or longer. They get along well and all three sleep with us in the master bedroom. There isn't much play beyond a contest to see which can get out the door first to bark and run off anything that might be found in the yard. The LabraDoodle will run his heart out chasing tennis balls (use a "chuck-it" to get long throws) but neither our dog nor the GoldenDoodle are much interested in hard running. too bad.
While he is not a lap dog, he clearly loves affection and rarely stays in a place if all the people move to another room. When we both (all) leave the house for an hour or two (not very often we are both retired) we usually find him asleep (he is near deaf so we can enter the house without waking him) when we enter and find him near a door - either the one we left through or the front door.
A constant effort to stop him from licking, with recognition of the real "need" to lick feet when he comes in from a wet outside, and use of an Elizabethan-Collar plus the addition of a chewy appear to be producing results. I have on several occasions in the first two or three days of use of the E-Collar have interrupted he licking/chewing with a forced installation of the Collar This collar is a nice fit and with his bushy hair around the neck I am able to slip it on and it will stay without any ties. As I may have mentioned he immediately becomes very solicitace with close contact, including running into me with the collar edge, and the big sad eyes. This passes and within an hour or two I find a reason to remove the collar, e.g., to let him go outside, or eat a meal. Right now this morning he has just come in from outside, had a light breakfast (kibble with fish oil and splash of hot water) he is resting and not licking... albeit, he did lick for perhaps one minute on the front two paws, nothing on the rear.
This problem has been going on for at least a month, where he lost much hair and the toes become red and irritated, not all 4, but as many as 3 at a time. Right now his two rear are recovering from that condition, his front are beginning to look more normal..they do heal when the licking stops. I also use a hot spot treatment, but less now, licking is the problem.
I tried a couple of bitters, one undefined in an antiseptic spray by Adams (Walmart) and Bitter Lime by 4 Paws, it had the best customer evaluations on Amazon of all the bitter sprays. It appeared to have no affect. The physical collar barrier, some chewy interest (he doesn't "love" them but any chewing is time well spent - I have taken to dropping on in his water dish, he will immediately fish it out and chew for a while, but not eat it all at once).
We will discuss the paw licking with the vet on his annual check up. I think I'll take him to a groomer first. I think my wife will let me try Petsmart - he has been groomed twice so far by independent grooms - a bit more expensive with variable results. That will include a nail trim, and I will confirm trimming of hair between the paws, and I will ask for an opinion on his scent sacs. The young lady groomers I talked with strike be as "too young", but at my age almost everyone strikes me that way. I will take a very careful look at the trim job and then start using the new muzzle and dremel to see if I can maintain them. I will try once a week unless I can not see growth in that period.
Oh, yes, I have tried more walks to a lower meadow on our property, this often includes an opportunity for him to run after some Canada Geese which he seems to enjoy - break the boredom, I hope. Again, he is not interested in long walks in new territory on a leash. He also has dog house guests a few times a year. That is a large GoldenDoodle and a medium size LabraDoodle (3/4 poodle). They usually stay with us for 3 days/nights or longer. They get along well and all three sleep with us in the master bedroom. There isn't much play beyond a contest to see which can get out the door first to bark and run off anything that might be found in the yard. The LabraDoodle will run his heart out chasing tennis balls (use a "chuck-it" to get long throws) but neither our dog nor the GoldenDoodle are much interested in hard running. too bad.
Dogs can chew their nails for a variety of reasons from boredom to trying to ease an irritation caused by a fungal infection.
Have you checked his paws to see if there is anything going on there with regard to redness, loss of hair, rash, or anything else that doesn't belong there? In some dogs, various neuroses manifest themselves in the form of nail biting. The thing to watch here, however, is that if a dog is REALLY neurotic, nail biting can become an obsessive/compulsive behavior and at that point it becomes very difficult to stop.
You could try putting bitter apple or something on the paws to see if that will stop him from chewing the nails, however licking the paws to some extent is a perfectly normal part of a dog grooming himself, and making it difficult or uncomfortable for him to groom his feet can simply lead to a different neurosis because of the stress of not being able to groom. It's a difficult situation.
Since you have already had lab work done and found nothing, it is looking more and more like you might just have a bored and/or neurotic dog on your hands, and the fact that he was in rescue only a year ago could have a lot to do with that. Despite the fact that a good dog foster mom makes them feel right at home and very much loved, being in a foster home is very stressful for a dog because they are smart creatures and they know that they don't truly belong where they are. Any other dogs in the household let them know this by sending a memo around the "pack" every chance they get, and while a human might not realize it, your dog was getting the message loud and clear. Perhaps a behaviorist could offer some insight into a solution to the problem. It couldn't hurt to talk to one.
Ghilly
Have you checked his paws to see if there is anything going on there with regard to redness, loss of hair, rash, or anything else that doesn't belong there? In some dogs, various neuroses manifest themselves in the form of nail biting. The thing to watch here, however, is that if a dog is REALLY neurotic, nail biting can become an obsessive/compulsive behavior and at that point it becomes very difficult to stop.
You could try putting bitter apple or something on the paws to see if that will stop him from chewing the nails, however licking the paws to some extent is a perfectly normal part of a dog grooming himself, and making it difficult or uncomfortable for him to groom his feet can simply lead to a different neurosis because of the stress of not being able to groom. It's a difficult situation.
Since you have already had lab work done and found nothing, it is looking more and more like you might just have a bored and/or neurotic dog on your hands, and the fact that he was in rescue only a year ago could have a lot to do with that. Despite the fact that a good dog foster mom makes them feel right at home and very much loved, being in a foster home is very stressful for a dog because they are smart creatures and they know that they don't truly belong where they are. Any other dogs in the household let them know this by sending a memo around the "pack" every chance they get, and while a human might not realize it, your dog was getting the message loud and clear. Perhaps a behaviorist could offer some insight into a solution to the problem. It couldn't hurt to talk to one.
Ghilly
I purchased an E-collar and a muzzle yesterday;. I am trying to put the E-collar on only when I catch him licking his paws. I take some trouble to watch. He looks so pathetic when I put the collar on, it breaks my heart. He wore it over night last night, can't watch him when I'm trying to get some sleep. The muzzle was purchased to trim nails and cut hair between pads. I don't want to hit him with too much at once, so it will just be the E-collar for a few days.
I talked more with the grooming service at PetSmart and was told a full grooming that includes the nail trimming is $49, or about twice the cost of a nail trim only. I decided to look at using the muzzle - but my wife is talking time for a grooming anyway. If we get it done at PetSmart it will be less than past grooming which ran $60 or more plus tax and tip. At the $49 I figure a $5 tip is enough, it that's what we do the total with be under $60.
My wife thinks I'm a tightwad, could be she's right. In any case if our dog is crying out in panic while I dremel his nails with his mouth muzzled she will say I shouldn't do that, just pay the money to make it "go away". That's what I"m getting now with the E-collar. My argument is if we go to the vet for $35 (or whatever an office visit is) she'll tell us to use an E-collar and sell us some medication no better than what I already have.
This dog has been checked by a vet including some lab work no more than a couple of months ago.
Report on the E-collar on one of my related posts if I find it accomplishes anything.
I talked more with the grooming service at PetSmart and was told a full grooming that includes the nail trimming is $49, or about twice the cost of a nail trim only. I decided to look at using the muzzle - but my wife is talking time for a grooming anyway. If we get it done at PetSmart it will be less than past grooming which ran $60 or more plus tax and tip. At the $49 I figure a $5 tip is enough, it that's what we do the total with be under $60.
My wife thinks I'm a tightwad, could be she's right. In any case if our dog is crying out in panic while I dremel his nails with his mouth muzzled she will say I shouldn't do that, just pay the money to make it "go away". That's what I"m getting now with the E-collar. My argument is if we go to the vet for $35 (or whatever an office visit is) she'll tell us to use an E-collar and sell us some medication no better than what I already have.
This dog has been checked by a vet including some lab work no more than a couple of months ago.
Report on the E-collar on one of my related posts if I find it accomplishes anything.
Well, that sounds more like a grooming service. They used to charge us like $10.00 on Wednesday night after 6:00 or something like that.
I haven't used that service for a long time and just called our local store and they don't offer it here anymore. Darn it.
Have you checked with the Vet? I haven't done that in a long time either but I think my Vet just charged maybe $15 fir a trim with no office call fee. LOL, I should call him too cause they have done a lot of upgrades and price changes so bet that has changed too.
I haven't used that service for a long time and just called our local store and they don't offer it here anymore. Darn it.
Have you checked with the Vet? I haven't done that in a long time either but I think my Vet just charged maybe $15 fir a trim with no office call fee. LOL, I should call him too cause they have done a lot of upgrades and price changes so bet that has changed too.
Looking at the PetSmart web I see for under $20 [regular price]
A dog pedicure service that's convenient for you and your pet
Ear Cleaning
Nail Trim
Scented Cologne Spritz
Nail Grind
Bow or Bandana
Which sounds good, but our Westie appears to have lots of allergies, so the "ear cleaning", "Scented Cologne" sounds like trouble to me, or at least possible trouble... suppose one can opt to not getting those parts. Or an opportunity to decide based on what chemicals are being used.
I think about 90% of the dogs in this world are tough guys/gals that can take about anything in and on them and do just fine...not so with my Westie, and from what I read not so for the breed in general.
I suppose one has to add 7% tax (NJ) and a $5 tip, so the cost is closer to $26.50
A dog pedicure service that's convenient for you and your pet
Ear Cleaning
Nail Trim
Scented Cologne Spritz
Nail Grind
Bow or Bandana
Which sounds good, but our Westie appears to have lots of allergies, so the "ear cleaning", "Scented Cologne" sounds like trouble to me, or at least possible trouble... suppose one can opt to not getting those parts. Or an opportunity to decide based on what chemicals are being used.
I think about 90% of the dogs in this world are tough guys/gals that can take about anything in and on them and do just fine...not so with my Westie, and from what I read not so for the breed in general.
I suppose one has to add 7% tax (NJ) and a $5 tip, so the cost is closer to $26.50
You may want to check. I think they do them one night a week here for like $10 - $15. A few of us used to take the Greyhounds over sometimes. Up to you but sometimes they are better for someone else and let them be the bad guy. :-)
Seriously, when we took dogs over, we would get nails done then go "shopping" and give treats, which they loved.
Or, keep trying
Seriously, when we took dogs over, we would get nails done then go "shopping" and give treats, which they loved.
Or, keep trying
Thanks I am sure I am going around in circles a bit. My big problem with dogs is I am too much of a buddy so I love to treat them and hate to do anything they dislike. As said, he lets me handle him but isn't a lap dog. When I pick him up, 20 pounds, he is very cooperative and even so when he knows I am taking him for something on the "work table" (Top of the cloths washer with a towel on it). But being a Terrier (Stuborn comes natural I think) he will fight back if I push too far. I have fond that if I hold his head tightly, say under one arm, he tends to calm down - otherwise I can get hit with an open mouth, not a real nip but too close for comfort - and even a hit with the open mouth on the back of the hand can hurt and even draw blood. Thus a muzzle my be just the order - I also note he usually immediately forgives me and often follows me around the house.
I think Petsmart has a $25 nail offer, but I think he may bet better treatment form me. They have to have a non-nonsense method if there's to be any money per hour.
I think Petsmart has a $25 nail offer, but I think he may bet better treatment form me. They have to have a non-nonsense method if there's to be any money per hour.
Well, I suppose long nails could be a cause of the licking. I think it is still some irritation or just habit. I used to have a Sheltie here that would bite her nails and they were trimmed, go figure.
I thought I had sent you a couple of links and ideas concerning the feet issues. As for the hair on the feet ( I have grooming shears) but you can just get some small scissors and clip off the long hair even with the pads and trim between the toes.
The thumb nail is the dew claw and it can curl back and grow back into the pad or leg. Years ago, one of my neighbors came over with her Shitz Shu cause the dog had a bore back foot. Mind you, this woman's husband was a damn doctor, not an animal lover and would not let take the dog to the Vet. Well, after a thorough check, that is exactly what happened, the dew claw had grown back into the leg and was infected. She didn't even know they were there. For whelping puppies, I have some surgical supplies here so wrapped the dog in a towel and I was able to get under the nail and clip it and pull it out, told her to soak it twice a day and it was ok, thank goodness.
Yes, using a muzzle would probably be a good idea. What might be a better idea is to just let a groomer do them every few weeks. If you have a PetsMart close by, they may offer cheap nail cutting one or two nights a week. Ours does.
Wish I could get the one here we adopted used to the Dremel!
I thought I had sent you a couple of links and ideas concerning the feet issues. As for the hair on the feet ( I have grooming shears) but you can just get some small scissors and clip off the long hair even with the pads and trim between the toes.
The thumb nail is the dew claw and it can curl back and grow back into the pad or leg. Years ago, one of my neighbors came over with her Shitz Shu cause the dog had a bore back foot. Mind you, this woman's husband was a damn doctor, not an animal lover and would not let take the dog to the Vet. Well, after a thorough check, that is exactly what happened, the dew claw had grown back into the leg and was infected. She didn't even know they were there. For whelping puppies, I have some surgical supplies here so wrapped the dog in a towel and I was able to get under the nail and clip it and pull it out, told her to soak it twice a day and it was ok, thank goodness.
Yes, using a muzzle would probably be a good idea. What might be a better idea is to just let a groomer do them every few weeks. If you have a PetsMart close by, they may offer cheap nail cutting one or two nights a week. Ours does.
Wish I could get the one here we adopted used to the Dremel!
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