Dog with Liver Failure

[Megan136]

We have a 12.5 springer with liver failure, diagnosed on 1 Nov but poss had longer. Also had pancreatis and gall bladder problems. Still jaundiced but not as badly as on 1 November, faeces OK slightly lighter, no ascites/fluid retention. Drinking generally OK.   On liver supplement tablets (Zentonil)  and antibiotics from vets. We are giving Vit E and Milk Thistle compound together with Biostrath (herbal pick me up). He's managing OK but we think we could help him better if we knew how to or what to give him. He has very good days when he will eat and then a day when he vomits bile (usually only once, possibly twice) and then won't eat. We've just had a period of 11 days and no vomiting and eating like a horse (but restricted intake by us). Low fat, low protein, easily digestible diet, i.e. white fish, rice, pasta, turkey mince - boring but seems to keep him OK. Occasionally porridge or weetabix cereal with low fat milk.   Going to try him on probiotic yoghurt as we;ve been told it's good support for humans with liver problems.  Anything else WE can give him to support him and which will encourage him to eat?  With his eating for 11 days solid, he was back to being bouncy and "naughty" and we almost forgot he was ill!  It was lovely.  Would like to keep him like this and support him like this for as long as possible.   Any suggestions would be most gratefully received, whether it be for extra medicine from our vet (we only see every couple of weeks and he says he's doing OK at present) or extra vitamins/minerals which will help him.  We've also tried Marmite for B vitamins which he hates!Thanks in advance for any advice you can give us.

[CooperLover]

My dog started off eating toast and buns etc, then he stopped. He waits by the fridge and drools over chicken and turkey. He will not eat sweet potato, rice, carrots or anything that he used to. I have no idea what to do.

[Lolita66]

Hi Megan, my 5 years old shih tzu was diagnosed with Portosystemic Shunt. He lost weight and dont eat the food that the vet prescribed (low protein called UD).  He hasn't been eating for 5 days and i dont know what to do anymore. I would like to know if the food that your are given to your puppy, i can make for mine. I was searching over the net today and read about Milk Thistle and I ordered. He  has no strenght in his legs, doesnt keep his head up, well all the symptoms for that disease.  I would like to make some homemade food for him. Thanks for your help or to anyone who may give me an idea on what to cook for him.

[Me967]

I feel so bad for you. :(  I'm sorry, I just found out.  I know you done everything possible.  Write me anytime you like.  Take care my friend;  Amy.

[arachnaphob]

I'm sorry.  I hope you can take comfort in knowing, that you gave him a good life and you were there to help him at the end.  His life and death would have been better than a lot of very unfortunate people in this world. He was lucky to have such a caring family.

Arach

[Megan136]

Hi all, Just a quick note to let you know that my fur-baby started refusing food on Saturday and deteriorated quite rapidly from that point onwards. We had to make the decision to have him put to sleep this afternoon as he was in so much pain and asking us to help him. At this stage, he wasn't eating and could barely stand due to the pain.His breathing was also affected.  As the Vet said, he had three months extra which he shouldn't have had considering the state of his liver and his blood counts, and in that three months he had the full quality of life with us (including his "peel me a grape" stage!).  A BIG BIG thank you to all who came up with suggestions to help my fur baby, I am so grateful to you for helping me to enjoy him for an extra three months.  

[Me967]

So sorry I did not see this until today.  Brain fart I guess.  Anyhow with Lady I took her in and they had done some blood work and the results were off the charts along with her U/A results.  The films showed an enlarged liver?  
Diagnoses...was chronic active hepatitis.  Without the ultrasound and biopsy (done with a scope)from the specialist though it was a tough call on how to properly treat her, so she was referred to the specialist by our vet.  They are good that way.  
The hardest thing with any dog with liver failure though is appetite.  Sorry so late on getting back to this.  I'm better getting back to notes and messages sometimes.  LOL  Lady is doing good again on eating.   I hope your doing ok with him and found what he likes...for more than a couple days. I know it can be frustrating.  Take care.  

[Megan136]

Thanks for your post.  Re ultrasound - no it hasn't even been mentioned.  Initially when originally dianosed with definite liver failure in Oct/Nov, this was done by bloods. Vet said no sense in opening him up as he wasn't strong enough. Don't know whether Vets have capability of doing ultrasound - suppose they must really, but is it worth pushing for? I can't see what else it could be apart from liver failure. Also asked the Vet yesterday about the pancreatis i.e. has that gone down now and the problems with the gall bladder as I know they're all connected to the liver function and thought maybe is the pancreatis had gone down a bit that would have possibly given him the capacity to eat well for 11 days.  Again, the response came that he has liver failure so basically it doesn't matter what the pancreas or gall bladder are doing! We were told originally by Vet that eventually one of them will give out totally and then the other two will just follow very quickly and no more fur baby!  Bit difficult getting second opinion, think if our Vet found out, then we'd be barred! On a good note, eating well today - possibly the antacid medication has a lot to do with this, but he's only on one of them for 10 days so we'll wait and see.  Again, thanks.

[arachnaphob]

I was just wondering, why do so many dogs and cats get pancreatitis and liver failure?  Do you think there is something in their commercial dog and cat food or perhaps it's our lifestyle reflected onto them. You know what I mean...........too much food, not enough exercise. (this applies to me)  Maybe you have some other idea.

It seems like every second person you speak to has had a pet with pancreatitis or liver failure or both.

Chirley

[Me967]

I hear your frustration and understand.  :-(  Did they do an ultrasound on him yet?  I know you like said you like your vet.; but, if there's any question you might want a second opinion.   My border collie as I said before was the same way.  We finally have her eating baby food, giving nutra cal on the side and every now and then she will eat a piece of chicken tenderloin.  It is all pretty easily digested.  Maybe not the best for her but she seems to be picking up.  Unfortunately she has lost alot of weight.  Best of wishes to your baby.  Take care.

[Megan136]

Thanks again for your posts.   We had him on white fish and pasta for 11 days - no problems at all then he suddenly had an "off day" and went off the fish!!!  Since NY Day he's been a bit "iffy" - a good day, a bad day (eating and for the past two days he has vomited food and bile).  I've also tried him previously on kippers (suggested by vet as a "strong" taste) with a little success but not overkeen, for the past two days he has had grilled salmon fillets(already in freezer for us!!!!) and, again, he's not that enthusiastic but has eaten bits.   He's totally gone off pasta at the moment - spitting it out all over the place like he did with rice!  He might be ill but he's still got a good spitting range !!! We've tried him on toast, dry and with a little butter - depends on what mood he is in! Sometimes he will wolf it down, other times he will just ignore it.  He had a little salmon and some turkey mince for his meal tonight, but only a little and then had some new potatoes (no butter or anything) from my dinner plate!    Feel a bit negative and quite angry at the moment 'cos went back to Vets today and I don't think he quite understands what we are trying to do.  He's very negative as well - the 11 days good eating came to an end "probably" because the food couldn't squeeze past the gall bladder or duedenum or something.  So how come it managed for 11 days??? What made it suddenly block up?  Any way of prevention?  Answer given: "His liver is failing".  Really?????     I ask a question and get made to feel that I'm stupid! I came out of there feeling quite angry and frustrated (albeit with some antacid medicine and tablets).  I feel like shouting at him "For heavens sake, give us a bit more info/help here" . I DO have faith in him cos he's seen us and our pooch through quite a lot, including a previous really nasty bout of pancreatis which they originally thought was a liver tumour, but as I've said before, I wonder whether he realises what we are trying to do, i.e. quality over quantity, or if he thinks we are just going for quantity (which would be an added bonus of course but fairly unrealistic).  Grrrrr! Sorry to have gone off on one in this post, which I didn't mean to do, but...   On the positive side, another dogs human waiting at the Vets couldn't believe how old our dog was, she thought he was only a puppy, about 1year old (he does have shorter hair than his portrait!). That was quite nice!  We'll just keep plodding on with different ideas for his food.  He has a more varied diet than we do at the moment!  

[ginger899]

...........another idea, will he eat fish? steamed or grilled (broiled) fish which you can easily de-bone might be nice. Also you could try him with Potato/Sweet potato/Barley(well-cooked)/ cooked oatmeal/wholewheat bread zwieback (twice-baked) You can get close zwieback by toasting the bread until nearly golden, then cooling and toasting slowly again. It's crunchy, tasty, and dogs love it.

[ginger899]

I don't think for a minute you are being 'negative all the time' Hey what you've got here is a poorly dog. He is not going to be a breeze to feed. You are doing your level best to get nutrition down that doggy! Sounds like you are doing well, trying anything to help him. And I'm sure you are helping him. With liver failure, he's going to be one of THE PICKIEST eaters, depending upon how he happens to feel that day.

Got that about Greyfriars Bobby.......maybe not then. I'd no idea what happened, only a vague idea what it was about.

[Megan136]

Thanks for your post.  I've printed it off and am going to H.F.shop tomorrow.  I know he won't eat apples though - we've tried before - I think he believes that they're far too healthy for him!!!  The branflakes are a good idea - don't know whether or not he'd eat them dry, but worth a try otherwise with tiny bit of skimmed milk. Rice is a maybe.  We've tried white rice and if he feels like it he will eat it, otherwise I end up picking up grains of rice from the kitchen floor.  They're good spitting tools and spread quite a bit!!   I'm getting some really good constructive advice off people and I'm sorry if it sounds as if I'm being negative all the time.  I'm not really, and prior to his illness he definitely WASN'T a fussy eater - would eat anything and preferably something that he wasn't allowed i.e. "human" food, but since his illness he's become a little 'b' regarding food!  One day he will eat something and the next he will just totally refuse the same food but will eat something different!  As the Vet said that with the jaundice associated with liver failure everything will taste like cardboard, we're tending to give in to him and try to find something that he will eat at the time rather than just leave him until he gets hungry, as we would have done in "normal" times.  Please keep coming up with the ideas!   At the end of all this, I will probably have enough ideas to do a book "How to feed a fussy/ill  springer", the H.F. shop will probably have had enough money from me to open another shop and the sale of Kalms will have gone through the roof!!  Joking apart, thanks again and as said previously, I'm going to H.F. shop tomorrow so will see what they have.

[Megan136]

Thanks again for your post.   I'll try it.  Not sure about the carrots as he's had carrots in the past and he was quite sick after, but it's worth a shot at disguising food. He used to love broccoli but like a lot of things, he might/might not eat it again now.  Depends on how he feels and what mood he's in!!!  Refused turkey mince off my partner this morning but then ate a weetabix with a little warm milk from me and then turkey mince from me! Only problem is, he refused to eat weetabix from bowl - had to be finger fed!!! As I said previously, I'm convinced that at least some of the time he's "trying it on" but I don't want to take the risk that he's not!  
By the way, saw your post to Jaybay re Marley.  Believe me, you DO NOT want to watch Grayfriars Bobby!!!  I saw it many years ago and it left in indelible mark on me.  I am definitely NOT going to see Marley and Me or even read the book. They'd be carrying me out of the theatre/cinema in a white hug me jacket!  

[arachnaphob]

Hi,  

I have just discovered last night that my dogs like pasta bake.  I made the pasta bake for me and put carrots, cauliflower and broccoli in it as well (cut up finely)  I bought a bottle of three cheese, low fat pasta bake.  When I looked at the bottle, I noticed that despite the label saying three cheese, it was actually very low in protein, as well as being low fat.  

I gave some to my dogs for their dinner and they loved it.  I was pleased because they also ate the vegetables I put in it without even knowing. I won't be giving it to them very often because it's still full of calories and they are on a weight loss diet, but I thought I'd pass the idea on to you.

If I find anything thing else they eat that is low fat, low protein, I'll pass it on to you so you can try and vary his diet.

Chirley

[ginger899]

Oh I do wish your dog well. He is getting quite a lot out of life, and you so obviously love him!
Very good 'roughage food' which suits dogs well is Wholegrain Brown Rice. Now this also does contain a small amount of B vitamin. Boiled or lightly-grilled plain-cooked Chicken Breast contains B vitamin, but as you are trying to keep him on a low-protein diet, might be too much. Yeast flakes are usually available from Health Food shops, and contain B vitamins, but I don't think they have salt. My dog loves Bran Flakes, and I give her the odd few off my breakfast!! (Very bad habit. Now she begs when I have breakfast, of course!) They are good 'roughage' food, contain B vitamins, but also a (very minimal) amount of salt I think and sugar, but the amounts are quite tiny. She just crunches them up dry.
The apple I mentioned is good for dogs. And they do generally like apple. And they are good 'roughage' food.
As a low-protein meal, brown rice, with a little chopped apple, and some steamed carrot, or peas, with maybe a little gravy made from yeast flakes with water would be excellent (it might sound boring to Humans, but I'm sure he would like it) So that's a recipe you can add to your list, to keep some variety in his diet.
As far as herbs go, CLEAVERS (Also known as Goosegrass) is a good general gentle detox herb, good for dogs. DANDELION may be helpful. Both these herbs might be helpful with liver failure. What's his weight...about 35-40lbs? It would be ok to use about 1/3 of the recommended (human) adult dosage of these herbs. But these may be already contained in the Biostrath formula you're giving him, so I wouldn't double up on that.
For nausea, BLACK HOREHOUND works well. This is a herb considered safe for pregnant women to take for morning sickness, so I'm almost sure would be ok for him....but check this if you can with a herbal vet. There might be someone online you could ask?? I'm not sure.
  

[Megan136]

Hi and thanks for your comments.  Any suggestions gratefully received.  We try not to give him a lot of dairy, but sometimes just to get him to eat, we'll give him weetabix or porridge (with sugar dare I say it!). Also the weetabix for the roughage as we don't think the pasta or fish give him enough and we want to keep him "going".  The electrolyte/glucose drink is a good idea though - my niece suggested this last week - her university course involved looking after horses and when they had "tummy upets" they were given electrolytes.  She said similar to the sports drinks but obviously not those so I will ask my health food shop tomorrow.  When he is having an off day, we put a bit of sugar in his water - don't know whether any benefits but I always equate sugar with energy, albeit a short burst and obviously I don't put too much in.  It's all just a question of keeping him eating - preferably on the good stuff like fish and turkey mince, but if he won't eat that then almost any type of food is preferable to none!  It's really difficult as we know low fat, low protein but then he won't eat his dinner but is looking at ours!  Mind you, with the post Christmas diets coming in for us, then it might not be so difficult! We'll all be on the same diet!  Watch this space!    Re marmite - vet said to try cos of B vitamins, but as he doesn't like it, might try and get a Vit B compound from H.F.shop.  Our vets only seem to have a general "dog vitamin" (we have asked!) and we are very carefully checking weights and dosages on "human" stuff we are giving him!   Again, thanks for the post - as I said, all ideas very gratefully received.  It's all about quality I think, not quantity although vet did also say that liver regenerates itself every 3 months and see what happens, but then qualified this by saying that he is definitely NOT going to get better! As he was originally only given days to a week or so to live, I think 2 months down the line is OK for now and for the majority of that time he's had the quality, so you never know, I might still be posting in another month or even three!

[ginger899]

However, sometimes your dog will know whether or not he can cope with eating. Sometimes his system might not be able to, and he'd be better off only drinking (for short periods) I wonder if an electrolyte/glucose drink might be helpful when he's queasy? Can the vet give you something like this?

[ginger899]

Milk Thistle is an excellent herb for the liver, and apparently, can help the liver to cope with any difficulty much better. I'd keep giving him that, in the appropriate dosage for his weight. His diet sounds good, but (and anyone correct me if I'm way off...) I wouldn't be giving him milk. I don't know for certain, but I think dogs can sometimes have a problem with digesting it. (Though most of them do love it)
A little bit of ripe apple might be helpful. Marmite has B vitamins, yes, but contains a good deal of salt! which might not be a good idea.
Angelica Root is a herb which is traditionally used to encourage appetite, but I cannot tell you if it is, or is not, safe to use for dogs. You will have to ask a herbal vet.