not sure what to do....

[roxy2007]

alrighty, i've only been on this sight for about a week... and my gosh, how have a lived my whole life without it? =P
i got such lovely responses to my original question, i thought i would get some thoughts on something i've been trying to decide on for the past 2 months.

we adopted a great dane about 2 and a half months ago, she was a puppy mill dog, she is "3" years old and has had at least 5 litters. (this is why i question the whole 3 year thing, they would have had to have bred her EVERY heat.... which... i guess i cant really say i dont believe someone would do... but.... i dont know) anyway. her heart is not good, the vets have yet to give me medication for her as when i got her she was about 50lbs underweight and they weren't sure what exactly was going on with her heart (her chest was so hallow her heart was echoing)

anyway.... she has just come into heat... so after her heat i have the option of getting her fixed.... this is the big issue....

she is in really bad shape, she's not a strong dog at all, she has been in a cage her whole life and when we got her we started taking her for 3 minute at a time walks (because her pads were so soft) she could stand but it was a struggle to walk.... since then she has learned to walk, run and now bounds around happily with my other brat. they fight sometime and after a fight she will be GULPING for air.

the vets are telling me (and i actually believe this 100%) that because she was a breeding ***** she is at a very high risk of future infection and cancer in her reproductive organs.... so of course they suggest to get her spayed. However they agree that because of her heart it's a pretty big risk and she might not make it.

now, i know yes you can do blood work and get the exact percentages and this that and the other... but she probably only has.... NO MORE then (and this is a big max) 4 years left... if she's 100% lucky and we play our cards right.

i'm sitting on the fence with this... but i'm leaning more towards not getting her fixed and letting her be a dog for a few years. she has had NO life.... she wasnt even house trained... she never ran or played was never a dog.... i;m thinking that even if we discover cancer in even 2 years... at least she will have had love and a family for those 2 years instead of being sent straight to surgery and possibly passing away on the table.

When we first for her she was such a bad dog... she bit (i have many scars from her), she chewed, like i said she wasnt house trained... it was HECK with her for the first month... now though.... i mean she has learned where she is in "our pack" and she tries SO hard to be a good girl. she is house trained now and has learned all the basics in training... i have NEVER in my life seen a dog try to hard to be good....

i dont know.... i feel like she deserves to be happy for at least a few years... even if it's not the complete life span of what she could have if she were fixed and guaranteed cancer free... i feel she deserves at least a little.... i cant imagine her dying on the table after having upteen puppies... making her previouse owners thousands of dollars and then never being loved or cared for.... i have a hard time picturing this.....

you guys are all animal lovers and from what i've read VERY knowledgable (lol i'm SURE thats not spelled properly) so any advice or opinions on this are very appreciated.... even in they contradict my opinion....

i'll just add... before i turn this into novel, she wasnt just kept in a cage and bred... she went through heck... several of her nipples have been chewed off by her puppies her tail is still RAW from the puppies... she had SO many parasites... i mean it was hard... really hard for her....

advice?????

[roxy2007]

does it even make sense that she is in heat.... if i adopted her on NOV 15th and her puppies were 3 weeks old... they would be about 3months old now.... do females have their heats as early as 3 months after having puppies?????

i was talking with one of my friends last night who knows the story with Ruby and she freaked out when i told her that she was in heat, saying that it was impossible and she seemed 100% sure it was pyometra.....

i've been doing research on it but Ruby still has a VERY healthy appetite, still very active... doesnt seem to be uncomfortable.... and her heat looks pretty healthy. There is alot of blood... but she is a great dane.... but it's blood, not puss or discharge... it looks like a healthy heat..... any experiences with pyometra??? is it obviouse to detect in a dog or something that usually isnt noticed until it is fairly advanced?

[roxy2007]

oh my gosh!!! what a beauty!
your dogs are beautiful, the dane is... wow!! where did you get him from?
it's depressing.... my girl who is suposidly 3 looks so much older and SO much more worn out then him... =(
I have had rescue dogs since i have moved out of my parents house and have fostered... too many to count but would eventually (when i graduate and we buy a house) like to buy a dane pup through a reputable breeder.

The problem with our Ruby right now is that she is still so thin (she has gained a bunch of weight since Nov. but is still bag of bones) is that no vet seems to know whats going on with her heart. It echoes and sounds "woshy" and in order to do further exams we would have to sedate her (she can be VERY aggressive) and no vet is comfortable with that seeing as they dont know.....

For the spaying thing, i am going to wait for the summer... the vet that i dealt with yesterday is the first vet that seemes to know her stuff and she flat out refused to do surgery until Ruby is in a healthier and more predictable state....

The vets on this forum really are amazing. i posted about my shepherd and the vet hit the hammer on the head... according to the info i got yesterday from mine.... i will ask about this tomorrow morning =)

the other thing i'm wondering is.... (this is embarassing) can the vet tell the difference between a swollen uterus and a swollen tummy? the dane got into her food bin the other night.... and ate what i would guestimate at 10lbs of food... at least. that was 2 days before her visit... i had assumed up until now that a vet would know the difference between stomach bloating and swollen uterus but now i'm wondering... i know also it was ONLY her that ate the food as all the other animals go to their *cough*  "bedrooms" at night. she cant be trusted with any other animals so she is left loose in the house.

i dont know.... after the vet visit yesterday i'm so unsure.... i really hope she's not pregnant but hey, we'll deal with it if need be!

as for food... she doesnt respond well to what i consider the "higher quality food" physically she did do well on ACANA (made by orijen) but she STANK.... the whole house reaked of fish (she has chicken allergies)

the other grain free diets didnt work well with her (i will try again in a couple of weeks... with the 2 of them an average sized bag lasts about 2 weeks)  but right now she is on proplan, salmon... not my favorite but she is actually packing on the pounds with it.

I'm no expert... i'm 21 and although i have a good "animal" background i still feel completly at a loss with her.... i have never muzzled an animal but when the vet came i had to with her.... i'm sort of... well... just at a loss right now....

[peekawho]

Hi, Roxy!   Click on my name, and then take a look at my dog pics to see Benjamin, our 5 year old harlequin Dane!  

A pregnancy in a Dane may be more difficult to diagnose, especially in the scenario you describe. .  I don't know about still having heat symptoms if pregnant....I'd have to assume the vet knows what she is talkiing about--so if the vet says its possible, I guess its possible.   Sounds like you'll find out soon!

I strongly agree with the others.  See how it goes for the next 6-12 months.  There is no hurry.  Danes are prone to cardiomyopathy--is that what the vet said she has?  There are medications that can control it to an extent.   Be sure she's getting high quality food, but its important to feed whatever the vet recommends.  If she has heart problems, there are certain foods that have a lot of sodium and must be avoided.  

Bless you for adopting this wonderful dog, and for giving her a great, great life.  Seriously try to post on the Ask A Vet forum, found here:

http://www.medhelp.org/forums/show/112

If you can't post a question, keep trying.  They only take a few questions a day.  If you try to post in the morning, you'll have the best luck.  Dr. Cheng is a wonderful resource, and she may recommend some herbs that you can use to assist your dog with her return to health, too.  (She often uses chinese herbs to augment health in her practice).

Good luck!  Keep us posted, PLEASE!

[roxy2007]

I will also add, that the puppy mill (obviously) had everything from danes to chihuahuas so she doesnt look pregnant (I mean she looks bigger then she was but we've been trying like heck to boost her weight up) sooo... if she bred with a small or smaller dog would it maybe not show as much??
I'm freaking out as we are already up to our necks in rescued... behaviorally difficult animals.....

[roxy2007]

hmmm.....
ok, the vet came yesterday.... i'm very confused....

We seized her (i have checked the paperwork since my last post) on Nov.15th....  her latest litter of puppies were 3 weeks old at the time.

The vet gave her her physical and then looked at me with raised eyebrows and asked "is it possible she's pregnant?"
I said "no" right away (we have been SOOO careful with her) and she gave me a referal to a clinic where they can check her reproductive organs for infections and swelling. Now, i have my apointment next week to have ultrasound and whatever else the vet deems necessary.... BUT as soon as she left it hit me... could she have gotten pregnant while still at the puppymill?! she is in heat now, which i reminded the vet when she asked and her response was "they sometimes still get a heat"....

now my question is... first of all could she have gotten pregnant while her latest litter was 3 weeks old? and if so... lol how much time do i have to prepare for what will most likely be a complicated birthing process?

[ginger899]

Yes it is very sad and shocking to use a dog as a breeding (money-making) machine. The callousness of doing such a thing astounds me. It is so wonderful that she has now found people who care deeply for her and her welfare.

[Ghilly]

I am in complete agreement with Ginger and Jaybay.  Give her some time to heal and come into herself.  You never know, with care and good food she could easily become strong enough to withstand the surgery, so I say to put it off for 6 months to a year and see what's what before risking her to the anesthesia.  That poor girl!  And yes, it's entirely likely that they have bred her on every heat, including her first one.  She never even got to be a puppy herself!  Giant breeds take two years or more to go from puppyhood to being an adult dog, and that whole time was spend with puppies!  That's HORRIBLE!  She's so lucky to have found someone as understanding and loving as you!

Ghilly

[Jaybay]

Yup - ditto what ginger said.  You needn't make a decision on surgery right now.  Give it some time - say 6 months - and see how she's doing.  She's come such a long way but apparently needs some more time to reach her physical health capacity.  

At the end of 6 months, if you see improvement check back with your vet for an opinion.  The heart issue appears to be somewhat in doubt, so you might ask for a referral to a specialist for both a cardiac workup and the spaying surgery.  If she's going to be a tough surgical case, she needs to be in a hospital with state of the art equipment and ICU capabilities - just in case those services are needed.

Have you posted your concerns to one of our vets on the Ask a Vet forum?  It never hurts to get another professional opinion, and it's free.  :-)

I totally understand why you're waffling on the decision - I'd be doing the same thing.  Time is not your enemy at this point, so a few months may make all the difference as far as her being a surgical candidate.  Great rescue job by the way!  :-)

[ginger899]

I can only give you my opinion. Yes, the vet said she is at higher risk of pyometra and reproductive cancer. That doesn't mean she is for CERTAIN going to get it. Yes, it is a better idea to have dogs spayed (or neutered) But here, maybe you are right. Let her be a dog for as long as she can enjoy things. Build up her strength. Feed her well, love her well, build up her cardio-vascular fitness by regular gentle exercise, get her meds/supplements/whatever support she might need.
All unspayed b-i-t-c-h-e-s don't automatically get cancer or pyometra, even though the chances are a lot higher. Be watchful of course for breast lumps (always get them checked if you find any) Be watchful for signs of womb infection in the future about 8-9 weeks after her season (vaginal discharge, fever, lassitude, drinking a lot of water, possible vomiting) Or any other signs of health changes.
IF ever she does get sick, by that time if she has built up her strength, she may well be strong enough to tolerate anaesthetic and surgery. That is possible in the future. The happier and healthier she lives with you, the more likely her past traumas will become  "fading scars", and not such "open wounds" as they are right now.