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Neti Pot and nasal irrigation
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Neti Pot and nasal irrigation

When I try to use a neti pot my head hurts so much I have to stop. Its like a bad headache. A CT scan years ago showed my sinuses were blocked. So is Nasal Irrigation not suitable for blocked sinuses?
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449909_tn?1233413497
Neti Pot is from ancient India. In "Yoga" nethi (Sanskrit word meaning - 'to clean') was/ is advised using such pots. It is just a way to pass water into the nose to wash the same - and whatever opens into it (sinuses).

But one problem is that it may transfer dirt/bacteria from one place to another inside the nose and sinuses and hence may 'spread' the infection when the body defenses may be trying to limit it. So it may be unwise to use in case of acute infections.

Ideally it should be undertaken after proper advice from a medical doctor. With a CT showing your sinuses 'blocked', better take advice from an ENT specialist.

Hope this helps.

Best,

Dr.Thomas Antony
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Avatar_m_tn
If the CT scan was years ago, I agree with Dr. Anthony, go see an ENT specialist.

Nasal irrigation works very well against blocked sinuses, but not the way most people do it.  The neti pot, to me, looks like an invitation to a Eustachian tube infection.  A better device is Dr. Mehta's Neilmed Sinus Rinse, available at most drugstores.

Unfortunately, it only clears the lower sinuses (maxillary and ethmoid) before gravity takes over.

I invented the Flip-Turn Sinus Flush, which uses gravity to flush out all of the sinuses.  It's extremely effective, but it's risky, because you have to bend over, which could possibly make some people dizzy and fall.
I only advocate it if people have tried everything else short of surgery, or if they are young and fit.

http://www.medhelp.org/user_journals/show/2322

good luck,
friggy
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Avatar_f_tn
Hello
The original scan in 1998 showed all 4 sinuses were blocked. I didnt have surgery as I assumed it would just unblock.

This week I had a CT scan and it showed a normal scan which really surprised me as I have had a sinus headache for at leaSt a few weeks. The scan showed no blockage at all so I cant understand why my cheeks ache and head aches across the top of my eyes.

I tried nasal irrigation and water didnt really come out of my other nostril and my headache was so bad I had to stop.
I took the scan back to my Dr and he suggested a nasal spray which hasnt worked
So I am now going to have another scan from a different place for a second opinion
MATILDA
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449909_tn?1233413497
1. Repeating CT scans at such short intervals is not advisable because of radiation. Unless of  course there is dire emergency.

2. The mucosa inside the nose may be sending the pain signals, like you experience with nasal irrigation.
The nasal spray was probably advised to tackle the inflammation of the nasal mucosa. You say it hasn't helped.

3. Did you visit an ENT specialist? He may be able to make out if there is something wrong inside which may be causing such pain.

4. If there is nothing to account for the facial pain, one has to step back to take a look at the whole picture. The pain may be signals from higher levels along the nerve path.

Your age, whether you bare a diabetic or not, what medications you are on - all count. How long has the pain been there? Do your monthly cycles influence the pain? How is your sleep? Do you have nightmares? How do you rate yourself in the happiness - sadness scale?

Hope this helps.

Best,

Dr.Thomas Antony
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Avatar_f_tn
Dr Antony
This is becoming very interesting

With the scan in 1998 it said I had a deviated septum as well as blocked sinuses.

The scan last week 2009 showed septum central. I went back to the CT scan radiologist and said does that mean septum is straight as I cant have a deviated septum in 1998 and a central (straight ) septum in 2009.

I was told the top Dr at the radiologist (In Australia) will look at the scan and advise me.
So does central mean straight?

I have had this  sinus (icecream type headache)  over my eyes and cheeks for about a month now.

Sinus tablets and sprays hasnt helped.

I am past menopause now for the last two years and dont believe its due to any other reason other than sinus.
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449909_tn?1233413497
Deviated septum in 1998 and straight in 2009 is no big deal. That too in the black and white images of CT scan films.

And sometimes we see this happening over a few days. The mucous membrane of the nose is 'cavernous' and can engorge or shrink (normal 4 hr cycles as well as for many other reasons) and can take the cartilaginous part of septum with it, and appear deviated.

And nobody has written the final book on human physiology. Many things are being discovered :-)

What makes you think/believe your headache/ pain face is from sinus?

New chapters on pain/ headache etc are being written world over, don't be surprised if they rechristen many headaches;-)

Best,

Dr.Thomas Antony

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Avatar_f_tn
Hello Dr Antony
In 1998 a ENT specialist told me I had a deviated septum and had to have a septoplasty ( is that the correct term?)

I didnt have the surgery.

The pain is accross the top of my eyes and is very localised not speading. Today I had a cup of coffee and thought it felt like I was having an ice cream headache. I thought that cant be right as I was having hot coffee. I have a little bit of pain in my cheeks.

I dont have a runny nose at all.

I tried the neti pot again out of curiousity.
Water did not come out of the other nostril and it caused a headache again.
Its got me curious.

I thought when my GP got back a normal scan he just figured everything was ok but it oviously isnt as I have a ache acrss the top of my eyes every day. Have had my eyes tested and my glasses have had to be upgraded. I am very long sighted and had a lazy eye as a child
Regards
Matilda
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Avatar_f_tn
I just cant win
I was given amoxycillin yesterday which had Clavulanic acid but I had a reaction.
The Dr said I cant take Penicillian again but my chemist said he believes I am allergic to Clavulanic acid

My sinuses are still causing me a problem !
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449909_tn?1233413497
Since I am unable to examine you (if you have your own plane in your backyard, fly in; you're welcome!;-) I have to build up on guesswork.

1. Deviated Septum. 10 yr back you were advised septoplasty for deviated nasal septum. Probably you had symptoms due to the DNS; like recurrent sinusitis, or headache, or nasal obstruction..? Only very few of us has carpenter-straight septum. Anyway you didn't consent for the surgery. (Since most ENT problems don't have pain - like an appendicitis - quite a few avoid/procrastinate the same.)

But now your septum is straight in CT scan. How does it appear to the ENT when he looks into your nose ? Did he comment?

2. The Headache: (a)The pain is across the top of your eyes, meaning it is felt on both sides. (b) A cup of (Probably hot) coffee gave you an 'ice cream headache'  Was this headache in the same location or in a different part? Sudden cooling of the throat in some, can give a headache, usually seen while taking ice-cream, hence the terminology. We can name it coffee headache, at least it describes your (this) headache, assuming you took hot coffee.

3. Pain in the cheeks can come if some areas inside the nose are irritated / stimulated. Maybe there may be some areas of inflammation there. I wonder if the hot coffee vapour did irritate that area :-) Or even your nethi pot experiment.

4.There are no 'touch sensors' inside the nose like you may have on skin. Only 'pain sensors'. So touching inside the nose will give pain. This pain is referred to different areas of head/face. (like a pain in the heart getting referred to hand or jaw)

5. Water didn't come out of the other nostril when you used the nethi pot. It would have gone somewhere else. Did it go down the throat? If the water manages to go to the back of the nose, it can go down the throat or come out through the other nostril.

6. A normal CT scan of nose and sinuses doesn't mean your headaches are not from nose and sinuses. CT can show only variations in the structure; and to be visible in CT, it has to have a thickness exceeding that of the normal structures inside the nose/sinuses. Whether the variations found can cause your type of headache is for the specialist to conclude. Has an ENT specialist examined you for the present headache?

7. You didn't give your reason to suspect the sinuses. Is it just because the pain is felt in the forehead and cheeks?

8. How about your neck? Do you have any problem there. Some problems in the cervical vertebrae can throw a pain in the head and face.

9. Why was Amox+Clav prescribed? Yeah, allergy to Clav is unusual and that to penicillin group is common. But we have to be open to 'news'.

10. Do you think you can post digital photos of your CT scans on the web? I could take a peek.

Hope this helps. Don't loose heart.

Best,
Dr.Thomas Antony

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Avatar_f_tn
Hello Dr Antony
I feel as though you are helping me more than my GP ! I havent seen a ENT specialist as I was waiting to find out about the recent scan

In 1998 the reson I didnt have surgery was  because I dont like surgery ! and the ENT specialist told me I had to sign a form saying therre is a possibility my eyesight could be damaged by the surgery so I declined. He said my sinuses couldnt be more blocked

Here is my scan from 1998. I dont know why I didnt think of it earlier to post the scans

I just took a digital photo of the scan so not too good

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff168/kjl07/Osteoarthritis/IMG_2724.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff168/kjl07/Osteoarthritis/IMG_2725.jpg

The scan from Feb 2009 they are still at the radiologist for a second opinion. They have had the scans for a week so not sure why they are taking so long to get back to me

I will answer your questions above
Regards
Matilda
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Avatar_f_tn
1. Took scan to GP and he said its normal. I forgot to tell him about the straight septum so went to the radiologist. Honestly I think this is beyone my usual GP to figure out

2. Yes pain accross top of eyes

Yes coffee headache in same place but only had it the other day. I can drink coffee but doesnt give a ice cream feeling headache since a few days ago


3 Worked it out Sinus headahe? and pain in cheeks started about 22nd Feb
Sometimes pain in bone where ear is but mostly accross eyes and cheeks
Slight nasal congestion but not very  much. No runny nose

4. Sorry not so sure what you mean. No pain inside nose

5 If I had my mouth open water came out of nostril I poured water in. Not out of other nostril. Water sometimes went in my mouth but I am certain water has never come out of the nostril opposite to the one I poured water in

6 No but do what to see one now

7 Yes localised pain have had it before

8 No problems with neck at all except OA xray showed in C Spine but I have no problems

9 Amoxycillin given by GP. I thought about it later and sure I had a reash with penicillin before but forgot about it. Im sure the allergy is to the penicillin. Stopped taking it rash went.
Was prescribed Doxycycline hyd instead. Headache not as severe all the time comes and goes but is there every day

10 Pic posted


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Avatar_f_tn
Another scan photo 1998

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff168/kjl07/Osteoarthritis/IMG_2726.jpg
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449909_tn?1233413497
I happened to come online now, and I thought I will give a fast reply :-)

I think waiting to see the ENT sp after you know about CT scan is like putting the cart before the wheel. Scans are pictures by machines made of black, gray and white and have to be assessed in the clinical setting, which only the ENT (if that is of nose and sinuses) can do. Sometimes we just ignore the findings/ report by the radiologist if they are not relevant.

Consent for surgery: :-) I agree the wordings are scary. When you fly, buying an air-ticket means you have consented to their terms and conditions. No surgeon/ doctor will purposefully do any harm. But if a blind man is helped to cross a road, and if both get hit by traffic, the helper can be sued. Litigation has reached artful imaginative proportions, that one is required to picture unpleasant details to the patient which can scare even the surgeon's kin away. (In fact that is what is done in some free hospitals to keep the workload bearable, I understand) There is a debate about how much should the patient be informed. Scary details serve only negative purpose and the patient can land up with more scary complications.

In your particular case, a septoplasty wouldn't have led to such a risk, but a FESS (endoscopic sinus surgery) could have. Your scans show that you required such a surgery too; yes your sinuses are blocked. Some surgical clearing was required in your ethmoid sinuses (that between the nose and eyes) which can rarely encroach into the orbit or optic nerve.

The scans: You have given only three pictures. I can make out a mild septal deviation to the right side. Your sinuses (maxillary and ethmoids are visible here) are blocked, either with fluid, pus or swollen mucosa. In one picture (2724 & 2726) I suspect concha bullosa (air filled middle turbinate) on right side touching the septum, but only succeeding cuts can say if I am imagining this. This contact might have caused a headache, but I would expect this on the right side. Concha bullosa on the left is ‘blocked’. But since you had a bilateral involvement of sinuses, your pain, if you had it, would have been on both sides.

We order such scans only after giving a course, perhaps a longer one, of antibiotics and decongestants, sometimes steroids included, so that whatever 'reversible' shadows would have disappeared, and only those requiring surgery would have shown up. If the sinuses are clear in the present scan, there are two possibilities. One is a spontaneous resolution of the condition, and the other is that your scan was done during an acute illness?

We will have a better idea once we have the new scan pics as well.

Hope this helps. Thank you for all the nice words :-)

Best,

TA
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449909_tn?1233413497
And what was the reason to take this scan in 1998?

Rgds,

TA
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Avatar_f_tn
Yeah , I agree! I think those nasal irrigations things dont provide enough relied to endure that pain everyday. Again, I would probably suggest talking to you Ent and askin him about using an anti biotic to treat the infection? I actually take  my antibiotics through a nebulizer its really nice cause i never expierence any reactions or side effects. I think its called aerosolized medications. It so easy to do to! I hope this helps, i def sympathise with you.

Good LUCK!

Ashley
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Avatar_f_tn
Hello
I couple of days ago I  finished a course of  anti biotics Doxycyline Hydrochloride but pain/ pressure still with me.

Dr gave me Avamys spray which I have only just started using. Interestingly this spray I feel fluid? in my throat whereas the Rhinocort I feel nothing
Rung the Radiology place to find out why it has taken them nearly two weeks to re ***** my scans. They apologised and said the top radiologist will look at them.

I explained I wanted them back !
I still have pain/pressure accross the top of my eyes and cheeks but also

I have pain at the top of my head and back of my head that comes and goes. This has happened for a while so may or may not be related to the sinus headache?

I then thought yesterday is all this problem from the OA in my cervical spine ?
Pics arent very good but here are the links

Report summary 2007
Loss of normal cervical lordosis noted
Deg changes discs throughout CS
Osteophytes vertabral plates discs C3/4 and C5/6
Left neural foramen C3/4  and the right  NF C4/5 are sig indented

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff168/kjl07/Osteoarthritis/IMG_2808.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff168/kjl07/Osteoarthritis/IMG_2809.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff168/kjl07/Osteoarthritis/IMG_2810.jpg


Matilda




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Avatar_f_tn
Hello
I finally got my scans back and their report is
yes deviated septum 1998
Septum  not so deviated in 2009
Dr believes straighter than in 1998 ?????
I have put up pics here to compare
http://www.flickr.com/photos/matilda2009/3361476031/

I am seeing ENT specialist tommorrow.
I still have pain just above my nose between my eyebrows

Matilda
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Avatar_f_tn
Had MRI to find out why I am still having a headache between my eyes and above my nose.
See posts above
This is the MRI


http://www.flickr.com/photos/filmprops/3514345788/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/filmprops/3513537427/

Regards
Matilda


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Avatar_m_tn
Hi. I have had similar affects to some of the above so thought I would share. It has been recommended that I look into Balloon Sinuplasty.
Here is one video I found:
http://www.truveo.com/Balloon-Sinuplasty-by-Dr-Raval-MD/id/2305843009849978066

Sounds promising and less invasive than surgery.

Be well.
--------
Jeff
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1181645_tn?1264103539
I decided to buy a neti pot after I saw the demo on Dr. Oz.

While doing it I also got a huge pain 1) on the top of my head and 2) top of my eye. The pain was so bad like my head was going to explode,  I had to stop.

Tried the left nostril and got the same pains but the water didn't go thru.  So I didn't push it.

Tried again the next day, still got the pain on both sides, water did go thru the left nostril this time.

I am afraid to continue using it although it does make your nostril clearer of debris.  In any case, I have decided to use Q tips in a rotating motion,and go all the way back to get the mucus out.  That works well.  Is this recommended?

Why this horrible pain?

Renee
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Avatar_f_tn
Matilda,
Whatever happened to you? Are you OK now? Just wondering as I have been suffering for two years with similar symptoms as you.
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Avatar_m_tn
so what did you used to flush your sinus
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Avatar_m_tn
please ignore my first comment, when you said bend over is that backwards so the liquid would come out in my mouth is that right
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