First ivf: expecting bfn

Just wanted to give an update on my first ivf try.  My ivf cycle after retrieval went South.  Last week I got a call from my nurse that our 9 embryos "are not doing as well as they hoped for."  So, we had a day 3 transfer that same day.  The news was only downhill from there.  We had no grade 1 embryos.  So they transferred two 5 cell and one 6 cell all grade 2-2.5 (3 being the lowest grade).  Basically this was a transfer for the sake of transferring something; I doubt any of these would live to day 5.  When they showed us embryos on the screen I knew it was over.  All 3 had some fragmentation and one was so misshapen that you don't have to be an embryologist to know it's not looking good.  All others were 2-4 cells.  I just got a call that none made to a blast stage and we have nothing to freeze.  

I am very sorry for not being able to communicate for a while since analyzing what happened only made me cry hysterically.   However, I would like to take this opportunity to thank alaskacouple, magda, anne72, ms320, jjsh,  Kari, Heather5, fyrefly and all of my AGP sisters for their support and advice.  Thank you for being there through all of the ups and downs.  I want to wish the best of luck to all of my ivf pals.  I am back and will try to provide you with all of the support that I can.  I hope your journey is a more successful one.  Finally, I sincerely hope that those considering ivf (Heather5, Sally) will get their BFP this cycle.  I am rooting for you guys!!!

Finally, my question:  How can I improve the quality of the embryos next time??  I only had 16 eggs retrieved so quantity was not a problem.  Do you think that changing protocol may help???  Any suggestions will help.  

[sasparilla]

You are absolutely the kindest soul.  And you have been so selfless in sending me sweet messages and words of encouragement when Ive been going through my turbulent roller coaster ride.  I sincerely hope and pray that your little embies decide that being in your tummy is such an awesome place they decide to hunker down and stay for 9 months. You deserve it my dear!

Of course i am clueless to answering your actual question.. Did you read the article in newsweek a few months ago about The Fertility Diet?  Of course being a freak, I drink a glass of whole milk a day now (which I recommend b/c it is delish!).  

Thanks again for being superiorly awesome.
Sally

[kp1212]

Hey there,

Glad to see you back.  We were all worried about you, and missing your presence.  I'm so very sorry that things aren't going as well as you wanted.  Try try try to stay positive...you never know what can happen.  

As for improving the quality of the embryos, I'm not sure that I can answer that one.  I have read lots about traditional chinese medicine (accupuncture, herbs and teas) that may help.  Have you read the book "The Infertility Cure" by Randine Lewis?  I found it very imformative.  

Sorry I can't be of more help...

Thinking of you,

Krista

[sarge1]

Helen-
I am saying this in all seriousness:  My second IVF we got pregnant with a day 3, 4 cell embryo.  ok, it ended in miscarriage, BUT I am now 14 weeks pregnant with a day 3, 5 (or 4 cell, we don't know which one took as we transferred 4 embryos) cell embryo. I don't know the grade as the RE was not big on the whole "grading" system, and really for me that was probably best not to know.  
I looked at it this way too-our egg retrieval was at 11:00 am, and our fertilization didn't take place until 9:20 pm.  Our transfer was at 9:00 am 3 days later. Well, if you think about it, it wasn't even 3 whole days, and those little guys can divide quickly, so who's to say in another 3, 5, 7 hours they wouldn't have been 10 cell or more?  We never had any to freeze.
Our first IVF they retrieved 10 eggs, none of them ended up being good quality.  Our second, we only had 3 to work with by transfer day, and our third we had 4 to work with. So, maybe a few good ones is better than a lot of not-so good?  My RE did change protocol after each IVF attempt, yours may do the same. OR, you may not need to!  Don't give up, when is your blood test?

[alaskacouple]

My thoughts are with you!
Wanted to let you know that we too had changed protocols with our third ivf.  We had less follicles, but better eggs -- quality over quantity. I guess when there a bunch of follicles, they tend to not do so well.
With our last cycle, we did bc pills, NO lupron for suppression, just FSH, and then Ganirelix (spelling??) NO HCG trigger - instead used a dose of Lupron as trigger, and then PIO and estrogen patches. And, we pregnant until about 5 weeks. (We now know I have a blood clotting disorder and will start Lovenox with next cycle).
Talk with your ER about switching protocols.
Best of luck to you sweety!
Thinking of you and sending wishes your way.

[miky72]

Dear Helen,
to tell you the truth I was waiting for better news..
BUT I agree with sarge1 if you talk to most RE they will tell you that the gradde of the embryos is not so important for the pregnancy rate and if you look at my case on all my 3 IVF I had PERFECT embryos once day 5 once day 6 (frozen) and once day 3 and it always ended not well,instead some "ugly"looking embryos develop to be healthy babies.
Do not give up yet.I kow how you feel I always felt pessimistic during my 2WW .
Keep your chin up we are all rooting for you!!!!!!
SSSSSSBD,
Miky

[bny807]

Miracles can defintely happen, and I'm praying that this will be your miracle!!!! I hope you get a big suprise BFP and you'll never have to go through all of this again!!  Keep us updated! i will be starting our first IVF soon as well, so nervous! Your in my thoughts and prayers! : )

[Helen72]

sarge1,
thank you so much!  Your story is always an inspiration to me and I always appreciate your response.  My beta is on Monday and I will be talking to my doc some time after that so I just want to have all of my questions ready.  

Krista,
thank you so much for your notes.  You are a wonderful person and I hope your ivf goes smoothly.  If you have any questions about Lupron injections feel free to ask since I am an expert  :)  

Sally,
Lisa (babyalive) is actually very knowledgeable about fertility diet and gave me lots of tips and recipes so I did try that.  In fact, I am having once of her soups right now since it's good for the soul  :)  

[Helen72]

Thank you guys for your advice!  I will be making a list of things to ask my doc.    I just feel how HCG is leaving my body and after today's call from the clinic I perceive that my chances are infinitely close to zero.  Miracles do happen but they do not happen to me.  

To add insult to injury I am dealing with a student who is asking for my  leniency because she had to deal for 6 weeks with pregnancy symptoms during this semester and then an abortion.  Can you believe this stupid b&itch?  I was almost tempted to write back to her that I had to deal with ivf during this semester and I was teaching her class right after my retrieval!  Ughhh!

[HeathJo]

Helen--Being a close friend of mine, I know the pain behind your intelligent and articulate words, and how hard this has been. I also know you are a woman of great intelligence and reason, so I wanted to point out a couple of things.

First, I just read an article in Marie Claire (May issue, I believe) about a woman's journey simply to harvest and freeze her eggs. I was astonished at how few eggs are actually "on ice" at this point in this country. The technology is simply not as advanced as it seems, and so I wouldn't view that as a failure. That's different than actual embryos, I realize, but as progressive as reproductive science has become, the field itself is only about 20 years old. I know after going through everything you have it'd be nice to have the insurance of a few frozen embies, but one step at a time, sweet friend.

Second, unless your doc says so, there is no reason to believe that YOU personally are doing anything that can affect your egg quality. Reading books and eating well are smart and proactive things to do, but ultimately it is a game of chance. Just reading the previous post shows me how fragile this process can be, and how things may look bad and turn out wonderfully. I know you've been through the ringer, but you are still young and healthy enough to keep trying.

Third, have you asked the embryologist on this forum for advice? I know you have corresponded with her in the past. Perhaps she has some well-educated facts that can help you make some decisions.

Finally, I just love you pieces and cannot tell you how many people you have helped on this forum. I know everyone here would give you a BFP if they could.

Stay Strong!!!!

[4Angie]

OH MY!!!  I am sure you were fit to be tied!  What do you teach?  I am a 2nd grade teacher because my daughter just started elementary school.  After a few years, I would like to teach college.  I am finding a lot of teachers on here.  Is that a sign that our job is too stressful to conceive.  :)
Love ya Girl!  Hang in there!

[HeathJo]

Oh, and I'd fail that student asking for leniency, but I guess that's why you're in a position of power and I am not!

[4Angie]

Oops, that post above was for you HeathJo.  I thought it was Helen who posted that!  Sorry.  This is the first time I talked to you.  :)

[Helen72]

4Angie,
I teach college.  I have lots of irresponsible freshmen this semester and have to deal with many immature requests.  

HeathJo,
my embryos never got to the freezing stage at all.  They simply never lived to day 5 which is probably true of the 3 they transferred.  The fact that I cannot improve the quality of my embryos is the most frustrating aspect of this process.  Unfortunately, it's probably a function of my age (i.e. my eggs are getting old).  I realize that there is no miracle cure.  
I hope that LvnEmbryos will answer my post.  She is very generous with advice.  
Thanks again for your kind words and your friendship!

[anxious2]

sorry to get off the subject.  Where did you guys get your meds from.  I was just informed that my insurance will not cover my injectables and they will cost me about $2025.00

[Helen72]

Trust me, 2000 is a good price.  I had to pay 4500 for my meds in part because I was using Gonal-F.  I bought my meds from Schraft (Walgreens pharmacy).
Good luck!!!

[fifi blue]

Helen, hang in there because there is still hope.  I'm praying for you.  

f.

[Heather5]

Oh, Helen, I totally understand your frustration with all of this. IVF is an emotional roller coaster to begin with, and when you add the financial strain on top of that, it's enough to get anyone a bit down...but I'm still hoping you'll get a surprise BFP! Sending lots of sticky baby dust your way!

As for improving egg quality, I tried to find some info online, and it seems like the most common suggestion is acupuncture. I'll send you a PM with some links that I came across.

Take care, Helen, and try to stay positive! We're all rooting for you!

[ms320]

Helen:

First, no leniency for the dumb a** student.  She has to learn sometime that actions have consequences - now is as good a time as any.  However, as Heather said, that is why you are in a position of power.  

Have you read anything about co-culture.  I have heard that doing co-culture can improve the quality of embryos.  Not sure if I heard correctly or not, but wanted to run it by you.  

I wish I had some words of wisdom for you, because you always seem to have them for everyone else.  I know you were hoping to have some embryos to freeze, but hopefully the point will be mute.  My fingers are still crossed for you

[4Angie]

If you email me at Angela.    Clifton     @    VBSchools.     com,  leave out the spaces, I will email you a spreadsheet that I have.  It includes some medications that I am using:  Ovidrel, Follistim, Gonal-F (because it is comparable to Follistim), and Antagon (also known as Ganirelix).  I have the phone numbers, fax numbers, and costs from 6 pharmacies.  I can email them to you tonight.  There is someone else that is supposed to email me too who also wants the prices.

[kp1212]

I have purchased my meds from Freedom Pharmacy and IVP Pharmacy.  All of the drugs have been comparable in price, except the GonalF, which was a couple hundred dollars cheaper at Freedom.
Hope that helps!
Krista

[Kari15]

Hey Helen,  I've thought about you so much over the last few days, I just wish I could actually give you a shoulder to lean on or cry on.  There have been some wonderful things said by these lovely ladies who posted ahead of me... and don't give up on your miracle.  Real miracles don't happen often... maybe you've never had one before and maybe you'll never have another, but this could your one.  I will keep praying for you.

You're aware of my quality issues as my IVF cycles produced oodles of follies/eggs but none so far with any quality to speak of going 0-17 on my embryos.  But my RE did change my protocol this cycle and things have gone beautifully thus far.  I expect to see some serious improvement in my embryo quality when we get our report in a few days (fragmentation was always a serious issue with us too).  There were so many changes this stim cycle and I won't get into details until I know we see quality improvement, but I will tell you that all of the changes were medicinal in nature.  I was actually much healthier with my Oct '07 E/R... I had recently lost 20lbs and was seeing an acupuncturist weekly and exercising (at least walking) every single day.  And I had **** for quality and a few negatives during the stims process.  This cycle, 8 months later, I've put back on those 20lbs and I haven't done so much as walk since stimming and I haven't gone to one acupunture appt... and so far, this is my best IVF stim cycle BY FAR out of the 3 that I've done.  HeathJo is right... it's more a game of chance and there is not a whole lot we can do to influence the outcome unless we are negligent in some way.  So don't give up hope... even if you don't see that BFP this time, another go at it could easily bring you the baby of your dreams.  Keeping you in my thoughts and prayers. (((hugs))) Kari    

[Helen72]

This is what I found about co-culture:

http://www.****.org

I guess I should talk to my embryologist if they do that here.  Perhaps that may help.  Thanks for the tip!!

[ashort]

HI Helen..I really don't know that much about IVF but I wanted to say I'm soooooo sorry!  You are such a great person and have been so supportive to all of us on here that I'm hoping you get preg. really soon...you definately would be an awesome mom!  Please try to stay strong and know that if you want to talk we are here for you!  HUGS!
Amy

[FaithNHim]

I want you to stay encouraged and keep the faith. I know at times it is difficult...especially when it is difficult to almost impossible to see a "shimmer" of light at the end of the tunnel..... your time will come and you will get your BFP!
I have had THREE failed IVF cycles. I was totally heart broken on the third cycle because eerything went perfectly.....I had a five day transfer and the embryologist indicated that the eggs were very good.....still......a BFN.

I said that to say, there is still hope. Once the embies are on the inside of you, the doctor's do not know what will happen because they do not have control over the implantation process. Regardless of the grade, it only takes one. Keep the faith...it's not over yet!

Thank you for the words of encouragment. They were greatly appreciated.

[babyalive]

Helen,.

I conquer with what everybody here has said.  You are simply the kindest, most generous thoughtful human being I know.  Given all that you are going through yourself you find the time, energy and desire to comfort, support and encourage all of us with such a steadfast devotion.  You are simply my idol.  I strive to be more like you.  You are so deserving of being a mother.  There is purely no way on earth that this won't happen for you.  I am still holding out hope that you get a big fat surprise in about a week or so and realize all your heartbreak was for nada and a bfp greets with joyous abandon.  

Hugs, hugs, hugs, warm thoughts, prayers and of course cartwheels and twirling your way.
Lisa

Oh, the question.  I would suggest the same thing about Randine Lewis's book.  But, also I've read DHEA, accupuncture, and the geritol tonic can all have beneficiary effects to quality of your eggs.  

[SDScientist]

I have seen many a cycles with so called poor embryos make babies and many cycles with perfect embryos not make babies (me case in point 5x over).  It is such a crapshoot.  Hang in there.  You just never know.  I know the anxiety during the wait is terrible.  I am hoping for good news from you.
BTW, stimulation protocols have a huge effect on egg and embryo quality.  I have been on 3 different ones.

[Jen7900]

Oh, Helen....

You support, generosity and compassion for others in need never cease to amaze me - despite the fact that you are having such a tough time. I agree with Lisa - one of the best people I know and I thank my lucky stars to have you as a friend and support during my trying times.

I met a girl at the RE office last week who said she had much better eggs and cycles in general when she started acupuncture. She also cut out caffeine and most of her sugar intake. Not sure there is any validity to her procedures, but she did say that the quality of her eggs dramatically increased. Hey, its worth a try! At this point, I may start eating acorns (random, i know) if someone told me it would work.

I (like the others) am still hoping for some good news for you. I will continue to pray for good things for you, girlfriend. In fact, despite my lack of coordination, I will cartwheel and twirl with Lisa - starting now!

Oh, and I would NOT grant leniency to that student. I have been in similar positions with my students (and they are in graduate school) and believe that holding them accountable is the best policy. Just my opinion!

[SHP]

I did acupuncture and cut out all caffine and had better and more eggs.  I have high fsh and am 40 and the doctor was shocked - we had 14 follicles with 10 mature eggs.  We had 4 perfect embryos transferred and two left over that made it to blast and we froze.  This was my last try with my eggs.  My DH and I have spent over 40K trying in the last year trying.  I am going in on Thursday for my prg test.  I could test right now but I can't handle it.  4 perfect embryos transferred and I can tell that I am not pregnant.  I am taking estrace and progesterine shots but every day my breasts are less sore and my nipples do not hurt at all like they did last week.  I had cramps last night in my uterus - sort of shooting pains. I cried myself to sleep last night.  I have to work today and tomorrow.  I have taken off Thursday and Friday so that I can have my breakdown when they officially tell me and go to bed.   I am so sad right now.  I feel like I can't take it any more.
The point to this is that perfect embryos do not guarantee a baby.  
Good luck to you.  I wish you more success than I have had.

[magda_s]

I was about to send you a pm when I thought I'd check the forum and there you were... I'm so glad to see you posting again.  
I don't know that I can say any more than I already have so I'll keep this one short and just tell you how much I've been thinking of you.
As for improving the quality of the embryos, I don't know much but something my doctor said the other day gave me the impression that meds can make a difference.  When I asked him why we had such a low fertilisation rate he said that there's really no way of knowing but that the only thing to try to improve it was by changing meds... perhaps it's the same for embryo quality.

[Helen72]

Thank you guys for all the advice and compliments.  I will be talking to my RE about changing the protocol and talking to my ivf lab about co-culture.  Hopefully, my next try will have a better outcome.

My beta is on Monday.  I'll post an update when I hear anything.  I am not going to POAS early since my embryos weren't exactly ahead of the curve for an early BFP.  

[Apan321]

Hi Helen,
I am so sorry to hear that your embies didn't make it. I hope your next cycle will be a complete 100% success. I am way less knowledgable than you in this field, so I will try to help with a story. I friend of mine was trying for an year to get pregnant and she was only 24 at that time with no problems at all. She was skinny too (about 100 pounds) and she decided to gain a little bit of weight. She gained about 8 pounds and she thinks that this may have helped her get pregnant. I am not sure, but I think that this is a harmless approach that you may want to try. Best of luck in future! Annie

[Helen72]

I am kinda small and skinny but well beyond 108 pounds  :)
I definitely do not abstain from any food (other than coffee and alcohol these days) so on your advice I will not feel guilty about that.  After I am getting my bfn though I am abstaining from nothing!

Thanks for your advice!

[sasparilla]

Helen, you stop thinking that way, dammit!  You said yourself.. pee positive!

[magda_s]

You tell her!!

[miky72]

Helen,
I really know how you feel..I always felt pessimistic..I do not know why I guess its character..
So since you cannot feel optimistic about this cycle WE will for you!!!!!
We all root for you!!!!!

[kp1212]

Yeah, we will all be uber-positive for you!!!

(You must admint, Helen, it's contagious and you are feeling a little better?!?)

[Helen72]

Thanks guys.  Everyone tells me to think positive.  But every time I look at our 3 transferred embryos (they actually gave us the photograph) I know that it's over.  They all look so sad :(

[Jen7900]

Maybe if you turn the photo upside-down it will look like they are smiling? :)

Just a thought...

XOXO

[Helen72]

That is REALLY funny.  Thanks for making me laugh!
Good luck on your u/s today!!!
Helen