Good answer from Dr HHH - re difference between him and Doctor Bob

For those of you who want to rwad Dr HHH' explanation between his 6-8 week time to positive test and Dr Bob's (thebody.com) conservate view of 3 months go to the doctor v patient forum

http://www.medhelp.org/forums/HIV/messages/932.html

[BadDay1972]

Quote from Dr HHH

"On top of this, there simply are no precise data on seronversion window time. In order to know the time with precision, you would have to study more than 1000 persons exposed at a precise, known moment in time to the exclusion of all other possible exposures, then test them all every 1-2 days for 3+ months."

Test them all every 1-2 days for 3+ months...

What does this tell me?

SEROCONVERSION CAN HAPPEN AT ANYTIME! To me this comment means that nobody really knows when HIV seroconversion actually takes place. It could be 3 weeks, it could be up to 8 weeks, it could be 3 months or it could even be 1 year. Who knows? We don't have "precise data" to justify when seroconversion actually takes place.

This doesn't scare anyone???

[peekawho]

I saw this!  You beat me to it, I was going to post it here, but decided to just have a beer instead.

[mike_no]

WOW !!!

This was really really required.

I think this would really help the major chunk of the population here !!!

[peekawho]

He also said in his reply:  "An uncovered penis isn't hard to spot".

Beer came out of my nose when I read that.  Struck me as a very, very funny comment.  Dr. HHH is cool.  

[mike_no]

Yes, He is moreover after this clarification most would consider him the 'SAVIOUR'..lol !

[xworriedx]

You are reading way to much into that ......doesnt the fact that the Dr has never EVER seen someone test negative at 6 weeks go on to test positive with modern testing give you some comfort?

It just doesnt happen.

[worriedtongue]

man, you're way too much - dr hhh gives probably the best explanation to support his 6 week comments and you turn it into a farce. You need to go and kiss another stripper.

[peekawho]

Kissing isn't enough.  Grind one.  That should do it.  

[BadDay1972]

Why do you guys mock me? I'm the one who went through the true ARS symptoms unlike you guys. You all are just worried because of your expousures. I'm worried because I caught the worst illness of my life that NOBODY else around me caught that could not be diagnosed. The doc asked me if I was exposed to HIV based on my symptoms!!

Is that not enough to justify my worries???!

[BadDay1972]

Why do you even respond to my posts you dumb a.s.s.? Just leave me the hell alone! I need support from people here because I have anxiety problems about HIV so just shut the f.u.c.k. up and leave me alone. Is there any part of that you don't get?

[BadDay1972]

Dobber I know you're out there and you're sick of me but please just read my last post and give my some guidance my man. I need all I can get right now. Please! I want to get through this just like you - It just seems like I AM THE ONLY person here who actually had REAL ARS like symptoms with the high fever, night sweats, sore muscles, neuropathy, sore joints, vomiting, shaking chills, headache, etc. It seems like EVERYONE else was just experiencing "anxiety" symptoms over there exposures. I'm sorry but anxiety does not cause a 104 degree fever...a deadly virus like HIV can though. I've been visiting a therapist but all she likes to talk about is my relationships with my family and girlfriend. Why won't she talk to me about HIV? I never want that ACRONYM in my vocabulary again.

I understand if you don't respond but if you believe in God or believe in "something" please just pray for me. Pray for my mind. Help me get through this dobber - I GUARANTEE you are fine or you would DEFINITELY know by now with how far out you are.

P.S. I hope to visit my family in Italy this summer - but I don't wanna pack my HIV.

Thanks

[BadDay1972]

WorriedT,

I promise promise promise promise that that was the ONLY exposure I had! Making out and genital to genital griding. There has got to be some risk there...no? What's so weird about all this is that I got ALL of the ARS symptoms with exception of the rash at 3 weeks post exposure - even the neuropathy which doesn't just happen with a "normal" viral or bacterial infection in my opinion. (ARS symptoms happen 2-4 weeks after exposure). The other thing that is weird is that whatever "illness" I got be it a bacterial infection or viral - NOBODY else near me - in my family, work, friends, etc picked it up - how do you explain that? Thirdly, the doctor at the hospital OBVIOUSLY suspected HIV because she asked me if I had recently been exposed. With those 3 things MY MIND and this being the WORST illness of my life considering I am one of the HEALTHIEST and fit people in my "group" of friends and family it is ME that got "sick." I just don't know what else to believe. You know when your mind tells you one thing it sticks in there and it takes a mac truck to push it out. That's just not happening with me. Even with an 8 week negative. What scares me now is that IF (i wish i could say when) I get a 12 week negative that I won't believe it. I don't know what it's gonna take for me to just believe that it's not HIV. I guess I just wish my PCP would give some sort of CLUE as to what it cold have been.

It's not the "physical illness" that hurt the most - I'm over that...It's what my mind does to me. You all think I'm crazy and that I had NO exposure but I truly believe I did and I'm worried sick to where I'm living as if I HAVE HIV and I don't want to be there. I just don't want that STIGMA. Trust me, I love everyone and everything in this world but a little virus like HIV would destroy me...plain and simple. I'm seeking help and it helps at times but I truly believe that I'm not gonna be able to get over this - odds or no odds and that is what scares me the most.

Sorry to everyone.

[WorriedT]

Hi Badday. We're not mocking you. We're just telling you actual facts that you're not listening to. You did not have ARS because you tested negative. Until you test positive, it is not ARS. In addition, at this point, if you test positive, we will not believe that you've been telling the truth, because it is more likely that you are lying and you were exposed in a different way - just like you refuse to believe the information that has been given by everyone here and experts like Dr H. I am not saying that you are not ill - it sounds like you are unwell, but you don't have HIV.

I was very serious about the likelihood of other things happening when I last wote to you. If you are worrying about HIV, then you should also be living in a padded room with no sharp corners (like tables and cupboards) because you are 80 times more likely to die falling out of bed tonight. You definitely shouldn't have a girlfriend because she might turn over in bed with you and accidentally smother you. You should also be building a bomb shelter in your back garden with about 10 years supply of food and water, because when that planet killing meteor hits, we will be deprived of sunlight for that period of time (although how you'll build that bomb shelter is beyond me becuase you would have to use tools that you could accidentally fall on or chop a limb off with).

It may sound like I'm taking the p***, but I am not - if you are so concerned by HIV, with your exposure, these events are more likely....

[dobber21]

What do you want me to say?
My answers aren't going to change.

Many, many other people had all the ARS and ended up negative in the end. Including me. Negative at 191 days now. Are you going to waste that much time?

Here's a newsflash. EVERYONE thinks their 'ARS' is unique, that they're not like the other WWs.

And you're forgetting one serious point; if it had been ARS, you would have tested positive by now.

I can hear your response already; yeah but why does Dr. Handsfield say test out to three months blah blah blah. He says if someone experiences ARS, they will be positive within two weeks. Which makes perfect sense. And if your body wasn't capable of producing antibodies you'd be dead, or very, very ill by now.

Now please, please stop asking questions. You've had your answers at least 1000 times now. And the answer is always the same; You didn't have a risk. While your illness was very like ARS and indeed I do sympathize as the anxiety must be awful, it wasn't ARS. You do not have HIV. Stop chasing a disease you don't have

[BadDay1972]

Everyone here "thinks" they had the ARS symptoms. I'll bet you 95% didn't even have fever which is the main symptom - including you. I on the other hand had 104 fever with every other symptom of ARS. My symptoms were very REAL. They weren't a figment of my imagination. They weren't anxiety driven. They were caused by a REAL virus which 3 doctors could not figure out. And if doctor H says EVERYONE will test positive 2 weeks after ARS symptoms then why don't other experts like Dr Bob who actually has HIV say the same thing? He insists on always testing out to 3 months if not further.

And finally...why are you still testing if you are WELL outside the so called 6-8 week or 3 month window period or 6 month window for that matter? What makes you any different than me???

[dobber21]

And finally...why are you still testing if you are WELL outside the so called 6-8 week or 3 month window period or 6 month window for that matter? What makes you any different than me???

That's, quite frankly, none of your business. I have not given anyone on here any trouble ever; you have. My anxiety is my business and no one else's; I don't flood the board or hijaack other people's threads whining about my own personal situation.

I tested out to six months for closure. No other reason. I wanted to be 110% sure. The doctor took a lot of convincing, and assured me I didn't need another test. I tell everyone test out to as far as they like, until they can look into the mirror and say to themselves 'I am HIV negative'. I did exactly that myself.

What makes me different from you? I've explained that before; but the main reason is I'm not as selfish as you. Furthermore, I reallised a long time ago that my fears are irrational. Totally irrational. That's why I didn't push them on anyone else.

I never, ever said your symptoms weren't real. I said they weren't to do with HIV.

You are the most self-centred, repetitive, monotous drama queen I have ever encountered. If you don't like the advice given here, what are you doing posting? Why not go to Dr. Bob and see what he has to say?

What are you trying to prove?

[andresgirl]

ok...so you had every symptom of ARS.  So what?  Lots of people get "mystery illnesses" that can't be explained.  when I first came to this forum, i was worried because i thought I had ARS symptoms.  I also believed that i was exposed at some point...i was raped by an unknown assailant...which is still a relatively low risk, but much more of a risk than kissing a stripper.  I had the rash, high fever, etc...i had it all.  I ended up in the ER...with a diagnosis that was simply a "viral infection."  The doctor at the ER didn't know what it was...my family doctor 1 week later didn't know what it was either.  But it wasn't HIV...just a viral infection.  My family doctor told me if it was ARS...then my HIV test would have been positive.

My point is...you're not the only person to have an illness that no one can definitively diagnose.  Also, like you, no one else around me became sick..not even my husband...who i sleep next to every night.  It took a few weeks, but i recovered...i had another hiv test to be sure...everything is negative.

So, please try and relax a little, though i know it's hard for you.

[BadDay1972]

Not to mention...a little sore throat or a little rash with a small fever for a day or runny nose is NOT ARS. What I went through at 3 weeks post "exposure" with every single symptom is the the closest thing to HIV ARS I've seen on this board.

[dobber21]

Thank you for your words.
I'm sorry for what you went through, it must have been awful.

Respect for keeping a level head about it:)

[dobber21]

The massive, massive difference between our cases is that you didn't have a risk. You seem to have started to think we're in the same boat. We're not. I was terrified of HIV, but I haven't been terrified by it for a long, long time. I just wanted a definitive answer. I got one at three months, and then went back, just to be 110% sure at nearly seven.

IF you want to get over this, keep working with your therapist. It takes time and effort. And get off the internet. And realise you didn't have a risk. Look at andresgirl. She was raped for Christ's sake, had all the symptoms and ended up negative.

You have to let this go

[andresgirl]

thanks for the support....it was an awful experience to live through that i wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.  

i've been reading these posts on this forum for a couple of weeks.  It's great that you're still trying to be supportive of badday1972 (and i hope he's reading this), even though he is clearly becoming somewhat of an annoyance.  It seems it doesn't matter what other people say his anxiety has gotten the better of him.  I also thought it was good that you mentioned your own experience with anxiety about HIV and why you tested out to 6 months...I hope badday can take something from that.

to badday:

i'm not one to post often on these forums, but i hope you're trying to learn something from dobber21.  I read your posts and I feel sorry for you.  I realize anxiety is a disorder and it can be difficult to overcome, but it sounds like it's ruining your life.  You must be constantly thinking you have HIV 24 hrs. a day...which i'm sure is exhausting.  Please don't let this ruin your life...take control back.  I know what it's like to be afraid, to be anxious, etc.  i don't think i got out of bed for several weeks after my assault.  I was afraid to walk outside by myself...i eventually realized that if i was going to live my life in fear, what was the point at all?  So, i got help from a trauma counselor and got my life back together.  I know the saying "what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger" is a bit of a cliche, but it's true.

Get help..continue seeing your therapist, and begin living your life.  If you keep this insanity up, the only thing you'll succeed in doing is drive everyone in your life away from you.  then, you'll just be a lonely person that's HIV negative.

[dobber21]

Thanks, you've been to hell and back. Since this is a HIV support forum, I'm not sure if we're much use, but I'll always listen if you want to get something off your chest:)

And Badday, take this very wise lady's advice. Move on before it kills you.

Because you do realise you're doing your body and mind serious damage with all this anxiety, don't you?

[andresgirl]

thanks again...yeah..i know this is an HIV support forum and i know there's not much that it can do for me.  Perhaps it was inapproriate to share my experience with fear, etc...I was just hoping to give badday some perspective....that there are worse things in the world than kissing a stripper and to make him see that fear is fear and anxiety is anxiety...no matter the cause.

Anyway, even if it's not really the appropriate forum...i appreciate your sincerity and offer of listening if I felt i had something to get off my chest. :)  I still have days where i feel like i'm going to scream....but i think i'm ok.

Continue posting to people on this forum though...it seems you're a good source of support for many people on here.

[BadDay1972]

Thanks for the kind words mam. Can you just tell me one thing. How long after your sumptoms was your final test to where you could truly truly believe you were HIV negative despite all the symptoms?

Thanks

[andresgirl]

well...i've had several HIV tests...i had a rapid one done the night of the assault while i was at ER....I had one 6 weeks later...it was negative.   Though i was paranoid my symptoms were due to ARS...logically i knew it wasn't possible. That's because the symptoms i had showed up 9 months after assault...which is way too long after exposure for ARS to show up.  I was almost afraid to tell you that...because i don't think that will ease your mind at all.  I tell you this because for a long time after my assault, i looked at every cold i had, etc as possibly being related to HIV.  Even though i knew ARS wouldn't show up 9 months later, i was still freaked out about it.  However, my family doctor told me had i contracted HIV, my 6 week test would have been reliable.  I insisted on one more test for peace of mind and it worked.  

Stop focusing on how long it takes to seroconvert, etc.  you've been tested after your symptoms showed up...if your symptoms were due to ARS, your test would have been positive.  It's as simple as that.  As my case proves, one can have all the symptoms of ARS and it doesn't mean it's ARS or HIV related....that's one reason why Dr.HHH and many others caution everyone on not to diagnose yourself by symptoms only because millions of different viral infections have similar symptoms.

[BadDay1972]

You see what I mean guys...andresgirl no offense - I really really really feel bad for what happened to you and think that the person that raped should get a little piece of his own medicine but your symptoms didn't happen until NINE months later! That is definitely NOT HIV ARS. Mine happened within 2-4 weeks after my exposure followed by peripheral neuropathy which doesn't just happen with a "normal" viral or bacterial infection. On top of all that my other tests for things like diabetes, blood sugar, and B-12 came back normal. The only thing that was abnormal was that my triglycerides were high which I've read happens when ones HIV viral load is high. That scares the hell out of me. I'm pretty fit - albeit i drink a lot of pop and eat a lot of sugar but why on earth would everything come back normal except for "high triglycerides?" It just doesn't make sense. Topped by the fact that doctors couldn't figure out what was wrong with me and NOBODY else caught me illness HIV is the only thing that makes sense to me no matter what anybody tells me. I know I know - you're gonna say why do you even come here if you're convinced it's HIV...I'm just hoping someone could help me figure out what it is considering my doctors seem to want nothing to do with me.

And can someone just please tell me what the hell the HIV window period is! I'm a normal human being, I'm usually healthy and have what I think is a normal immune system. I've tested negative with a rapid HIV test out to 8 weeks. Do I have HIV? Will it have shown up by now - honestly? do I need to do something like a PCR? or will 6 months be the tell all?

Hoping someone can help.

[BadDay1972]

Dobber,

I'm sorry. I read what I wrote after I posted it to you and it sounded a little rude but I promise that's not how I meant it to be. I was just curious why you tested out to 6 months. What in your mind eased your worries? I just want that same feeling. And when I said what makes you any different than me I was trying to get at - if you are so certain that I don't have HIV than why don't you feel that way about yourself? I don't know you but having talked to you and getting your support I feel happy when I think about a guy that was genuinely nervous about the fact that maybe he had HIV and he got over it. That makes me feel good for you it really does. I just want that same feeling and I really want to know how you got there. I know it's not about Dr H or Dr Bob or any Dr for that matter - it's all about me. What makes you different? How are you getting there?

Sorry for "sounding" like a selfish d.i.c.k. which I've come to realize I really am starting to sound like like one and I truly apologize ok.

[dobber21]

Sweet Suffering Jesus....

We all understand your symptoms. We all understand the time frame. We all understand that it was eerily like ARS. We all understand your anxiety.

We all also KNOW that you don't have HIV.

Hmmmm, let's see....no risk, plus a negative test five weeks post symptoms.

Do you not understand that if you had HIV that either you would have tested positive by now, or you would be very, very ill? Will that not just sink in with you?

Don't come back going 'but Dobber, you tested out to six months, why would you do that? I did that because I told myself I'd do that. I was being irrational.'

Look see your doctor and demand a PCR. It will be negative. And then turn off your computer and never ever turn it on again.

High tryglicerides are caused by the body consuming more calories than you can burn off. Stop drinking pop. And grow up

[andresgirl]

no offense taken...my post was not meant to highlight and focus on what happened to me...but on the anxiety i felt afterwards regarding symptoms, etc.

I don't know that there's really anything anyone can say to ease your worries because you seem intent on believing you have HIV.

I will say this though...periphereal neuropathy doesn't occur with ARS/HIV...patients don't generally develop that until they have full blown AIDS...and if that were the case with you, your HIV test would have definitely been positve.  Also, as i said before, if your symptoms were due to ARS, then your HIV test would have been positive...i'm assuming you had the test after your symptoms developed.

and just FYI...even though the viral infection i had logically couldn't be associated with ARS, it wasn't just "a little rash, little fever, sore throat,etc." for a day or so as you stated.  My rash was severe (covering most of my body), i had a high fever (101.4 - 103.2) and it lasted more than a day or so...i was quite ill for a few weeks.

Not much else i can say.  only that i feel sorry for you.

[dobber21]

andres' point was that these viral infections happen all the time. And she's dead right.

Everyone on here - when they're not mad at you - feels sorry for you.

But not because you have HIV. Because you have serious mental issues that you need to continue addressing with your therapist. The reason that your therapist keeps asking you about your family/relationships is because something else is behind this anxiety. I know you don't think there is, but I know you're wrong

How? Because I just know

[BadDay1972]

How many people here who had possible exposures have typical ARS symptoms within 2 to 4 weeks like I did. I'm talkin REAL viral like symptoms...not just a little sore throat or a white tongue...I really wanna know. Because until 1 person here can tell me they had the high fever the swollen glands the puss filled tonsills etc like I did? And how many of your doctors had in mind that maybe just maybe you were going through ARS because nothing else made sense? None of you I'm sure!  you can in no way pass any judgement on what I've been saying! imagine yourself in my shoes...you get ill and nobody else catches it...doc doesn't know what it is. Be honest...how would you feel and how would you react?

[worriedtongue]

why are you guys still responding to him - take no notice of the guy and hopefully he will go peacefully into the night.

badday is like an infant child - you just have to let him cry himself to slepp. if you dont respodn he will go away.

[dobber21]

Just still really really hoping that someday, someday he might accept all that's been said to him!

How did your test go by the way? Negative I presume??

[worriedtongue]

hey dobber - negative - i don't thinl i was ever really worried after the 6 week test but i just had a 12 week test to esnure it's no longer on my mind.

thanks for asking

[dobber21]

That's good to know!
I'm happy for you:)

[worriedtongue]

Is that an infant I hear cyring? I just let them cry to themselves to sleep.