Nobody really knows what the "window period" is

It seems to me like absolutely nobody knows what the HIV window period is. Some say 6 weeks, other 8 weeks - some 13 weeks and others even 6 months. Then, you hear - "if you have a high risk exposure like anal sex or unprotected sex with a known hiv infected person you need to test out to 3 months or maybe even 6." First off, how do you know if you had sex with somebody who is actually HIV positive? Secondly, why do some have to test out longer than others? Either you have HIV or you don't. I don't know about everyone else but it doesn't make me feel better when someone says "oh you had a low risk exposure so you only have to test out to 6 weeks." Why? What the hell does that mean? So, if I had a "high risk" exposure I'd have to test out to 6 months? It's not like if you have a high risk exposure you'll take longer to seroconvert. Why not the other way around? Let's say I made out with a girl which is considered "very low risk" yet made blood to blood contact with her why would only a 6 week test be sufficient? And considering I had all of the symptoms after this exposure why am i considered a psycho when the CDC itself considers "deep kissing" low risk? What if I had a low risk exposure but didn't seroconvert till later? I just don't get that...it doesn't make sense.

Does it make sense to anyone else???

[peekawho]

This has been explained before--to "IknowIhaveit".  

Look for the thread..it was several days ago.  It all has to do with the statistical odds of transmission.  If you have sex with a person of unknown status, the odds are OVERWHELMING that the person is HIV neg.  

I'm not going into it again.  I quoted from Dr. HHH the exact reason why people with high risks should test out furthur than low risk people.  I've also told iknowihaveit MANY MANY times to test every day if he feels better.  You can go into any CVS drug store and buy a test.  Test every day for a year.  You seem to really, really want to have HIV.  So test away.  

Deep kissing is not a risk, regardless of what the CDC says.  They are a political organization that has a severe CYA mentality,    They have to say that.  

[Nanson]

I guess people just betting on the probability. Since low risk is already almost neglegible, it makes more sense to quantify it to zero after say 6 weeks test.

Logically, it's so. You'll never get the answer if you keep on giving yourself these two words: "what if" and "what next".

Most people try to liken it to the everyday possibility of other ridiculous incidence like lightening strikes, or heartattack. Cuz that way, we can see things from a more rational point of view...why would u worried about say lightening strike that carries the same risk?

To me, window period short be shorter than 3 months...I really dun think that it takes our body that long to respond....

Think about this, when you're tested for 3 months and get negative result, chances are you still ask this 'what if' question. and then u keep on testing. u might later on turn positive, and now u say it's becuz it takes longer than 3 months to show up, but who know you're infection from a more recent exposure you didn't realize or didn't believe it was an exposure? Maybe you even got HIV it from being tested with infected equipment. I just make this up, but it's all the possibility.

Love to hear from others too...

[BadDay1972]

you see...this is what bothers me. nobody knows! scientists speculate but they don't know for sure because they don't have HARD FACTS. If people get HIV from needle sticks then what makes it SO IMPOSSIBLE to get it through making out? I just want the truth and a dam final negative. Is that too much to ask?

[dobber21]

It could be anything!
Not answering anymore. If you're so worried get thee to the hospital. It sounds like you're seriously ill. But it ain't HIV. I'm not a doctor, but it ain't HIV.

[richie7124]

HIV does not excist in saliva or in quantites that can infect someone. It is thought that saliva inhibits HIV. Through kissing therefore it is impossible to aquire HIV. There would only be theoretical risk in the case of intense bleeding gums.  Logically if HIV could be spread by kissing imagine how many would have been infected that way.

[richie7124]

Obviously a needle stick is vastly diffrerent as blood is being injected directly into the blood stream. Even in this case the chances of geeting HIV are low - less than 1%.

[WorriedT]

Okay - I've had a good night's sleep so I'm going to go back on my word and make just 1 last attempt to try and explain things to you. But this will be the very last time I post to you.

Let's set the scene first. Can I get agreement from you that we live in a world of risk? An example is that 600 people a year in the US die from falling out of bed. That means you have a 1 in 250 million chance every night of dying from falling out of bed. Do you worry about that when you go to bed? Hopefully not. So the question you have to answer is what constitutes a risk that you would not worry about? I'll take the falling out of bed as one for you - ie. 1 in 250 million is low enough to consider as no risk (this is obviously a very extreme case - probably every time you drive your car you take on a 1 in 100000 risk of dying).

It's all about overall risk.

Okay - let's look at your situation - making out with a stripper of unknown HIV status followed by an 8 week negative test. The chances of yuor stripper being HIV+ - 1 in 20 say (likely to be much lower). Chances of you catching HIV through making out (1 in 50 million - also conservative estimate as there is 1 documented case with open sores in the mouth of both individuals and the HIV+ person in end-stage AIDS and therefore likely to have very high viral loads). Chances of an 8-week test being negative (1 in 20 - also very conservative). Conservatively your risk of having HIV is 1 in 400 million.

Basically, you are twice as likely to die tonight from falling out of bed.

Do scientists know the window period? Yes they do for the average person but. like you say, there is always a chance someone unusual will come along and not fit into that window period. It's just like the risk of dying when you fall out of bed.

Why do people like Dr H give differing advice for testing? It's because of overall risk and what people can consider as safe. For a person who had anal sex with a known HIV+ person, the risk would be say 1 in 70. Taking a 6 week test would mean that the overall chance that the person is still HIV- is 1 in 70 times 1 in 20, which is 1 in 1400 (still quite high odds). Therefore Dr H says test out to 3 months as the chances of that being wrong are 1 in 5000. Then the overall chance then is 1 in 70 x 1 in 5000 = 1 in 350000. Even then, these people are about 1000 times more likely to be HIV+ then to die from falling out of bed that night, (UNLIKE YOU!!).

If you still don't get it, then I suggest you go back and take some Maths exams....

[dobber21]

don't do it! don't be drawn into his nonsense! we've both been there before and it gets us nowhere!

[WorriedT]

It's my last ever post to him, though I noticed that I need to go back and take a Math test....:)

I actually worked out the probabilities wrong for badday. They work out as 1 in 20 x 1 in 20 x 1 in 50 million, which is 1 in 20 000 000 000 !!!

Badday - you have 80x more likelihood of dying from falling out of bed every night for the rest of your life than having HIV. I don't know whether that will make you feel better or worse!

I'll try and give you another example. The planet killing meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs is meant to occur once every 50 million years. Basically, there is just as much chance as another one arriving TODAY and wiping out the human race as your likelihood of having HIV. Please, please get the message.....

[dobber21]

He won't. Ever.

I like those odds!:)

[BadDay1972]

Just got back from the neurologist and he said I have nerve damage from a serious viral infection. Said it doesn't usually happen with a normal infection...now you tell me if its HIV and whether or not its justified that I worry about HIV!

[dobber21]

No one here ever said you didn't have a viral infection.
It's just not HIV.
Did he mention HIV??

Look if you're so worried why not visit an infectious diseases specialist?
Or have a PCR done?
I guarantee you it'll be negative though.

[dobber21]

you don't trust your HIV results, even though you should know by now that if it was HIV that your test would be at least indeterminate by now.

What makes you doubt your HIV results and not those for flu/mono?

[BadDay1972]

I guess I don't "trust" my HIV tests because there is a significant window period that is debated throughout the world. That just doesn't exist with mono or the flu. Either you have mono or you have the flu. I had neither...so what else could it possibly be???

[Nanson]

My anwer would be: because it is biologically neccessary for HIV infection to occure, that's why needle stick is different from making out! Given that condition, you can tell now why even needle stick is also hardly result in infection.

[BadDay1972]

If it could be "anything" then I just want to know why the doctor at the hospital didn't check for other possibilities and if she really thought it was HIV then why didn't she do other tests like PCR? She didn't know about how I made out with the stripper because I didn't tell her...it never even crossed my mind to be quite honest with you...

[dobber21]

It never crossed your mind because it wasn't a risk!
Sweet jesus, how many times do I need to say it. GO TO THE DOCTOR IF YOU'RE ILL, SEE WHAT THEY SAY, WHAT MORE CAN I SAY?

[Xhost]

If it wasn't clear in my original post, no, I do not believe you have HIV. In fact, I know you do not. What I do believe is that you have issues that need to be worked out with your therapist. You need support right now, and I am happy to provide what support I am able, but the answers you seek you will not find on this or any other Internet forum. One day, I know, you will come to the realization that your problem is not HIV, it is something else entirely. You may think you know it at times now, but when I say realization, I mean: you will finally know it for the simple truth that it is. You will get there - may take a little time, but then again, Rome wasn't built in a day either.

[dobber21]

I'm only answering this one because you'll think if I don't that I'm coming around to your way of thinking.
Go to an Infectious Diseases Specialist. Explain your risks and your concerns. Stop posting here it's doing no one any good. Demand a PCR test. If he says no, order one from a lab.

I NEVER recommend this, but it's the only way I can see you getting over this.

Furthermore, guess what also causes high tryglicerides? Eating fatty food. Something you've admitted to doing. Or was that iknowihaveit.

Oh wait...YOU'RE THE SAME PERSON

This is my last post to you ever. I've said it before but I mean it. Please, please go away. I know this must be hard for you, part of me deeply sympathizes, but the rest of me is just too pissed off with you, and I don't think you have anything to worry about

[BadDay1972]

Isn't it too late for a PCR test? How do I go about ordering one? My PCP was barely even willing to order an antibody test for me.

[BadDay1972]

are you done helping me?

[BadDay1972]

Well...guess you're givin up on me. Hope everything turns out ok for you. Good luck dobber.

[BadDay1972]

Well, I guess I'm back to square 1. Thanks anyway.

BadEverything2007

[monkeyflower]

Badday, check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypochondria

Read it all the way through. The information is good, and I think you would really benefit from trying some of the approaches listed (journaling, making sure you get plenty of exercise and time with friends, etc.). And ask your therapist about trying CBT--if s/he doesn't know/specialize in that type of therapy, you might consider looking for someone who does.

Just so you know, I won't respond to any further comments.

[BadDay1972]

Do normal viruses cause neuropathy? The reason I ask is because my neurologist said he's seen it maybe twice this year. It seems like something only as potent as the HIV virus would cause neuropathy. The fact that I don't know what virus I had coupled with the neuropathy is what worries the hell out of me. Odds or no odds I was still VERY SICK!!!

[BadDay1972]

Xhost,

I so hope you're right. What people don't realize is that I really understand in my heart that I probably didn't get infected with HIV but it's my mind - which is A VERY POWERFUL THING - that won't let it go. I feel bad if I insult anyone here or if it seems like I'm worrying over nothing but it's not me. I just don't know how to explain it. I can't get it out of my head! My HEAD convinces me that I have HIV! It's my HEART that gives me a chance in realizing that "you know what, maybe I don't." This would be 8 thousand times easier if I could just find out what exactly was wrong with me when I was sick. If it wasn't the flu and it wasn't strep or mono then what the heck could it be? My brain tells me HIV!!!

[Xhost]

Ok, you were very sick. I see no reason not to believe you. But even if you were very sick, immediately equating that illness with HIV after deep kissing is a humongous leap of logic. In other words, just because you may have been sick, does not mean that the illness was caused by HIV. In fact, given the "risk" that you desribed, I would put your odds of having HIV at, oh, let's see...Oh yeah, zero. You did not contract HIV from kissing. End of story.

I know how it feels, though, the be worried about this. It's pretty tough, whether your worry is based on a rational analysis of the facts at hand or not (and in your case, it is definitely not - not a criticsm, just a statement of fact). I wonder if you have taken any time to wonder why you are feeling this way. If not, I would humbly suggest that you do so. You might conclude, as I once did, that you may need a helping hand to understand your emotions and the role they are playing in your current predicament. If so, it wouldn't be a terrible idea to visit a therapist or counselor who will help you put this into perspective, and help you get to the bottom of all this so that you are not burdened by this anxiety any longer.

Just a thought.

[BadDay1972]

Xhost,

Thanks for the advice...I really appreciate the fact that YOU can understand where my anxiety is coming from unlike many other worried wells on this site. Trust me I feel for everyone just like I do for myself. I've now been in therapy for about 3 weeks and have been taking Prozac. It has helped immensely as I haven't had a panic attack in about a week and a half. The problem is I've had an 8 week negative and I still can't believe that I DON'T HAVE HIV!!! I don't know what it's gonna take. That's what me and my therapist are trying to figure out. My problem is...I get on the web and I read about how people seroconvert late or get HIV from freak accidents and it makes me believe that I am one of those people when I know the odds are DEFINITELY in my favor. Why isn't that I can't process that? Why can't I tell myself and BELIEVE that I am HIV negative? It's so frustrating that I get mad at myself and disgusted with anything I used to enjoy. I feel like I'm a burden on everyone and that time is in slow motion. I just want this all to go away and I just don't know what else to do. My MIND tells me I'm HIV POSITIVE but my blood and my doctors, therapists, family, friends all say I'm HIV NEGATIVE. Why is it that my mind takes over and will 3 months end my misery? I just don't know...and that's what scares me.

[Xhost]

BadDay, don't worry so much about where you will wind up. I promise, you stick with your therapy, and you work at it, and you'll get out of this. You need to have patience, though. Easy to say, hard to do, but it is almost a requirement when in therapy. The issues that you and your therapist are working through right now are complex, they've simmered in your psyche for a lifetime - realize that it will not be a quick fix (well, for a majority it isn't). Trust in your therapist, and trust in yourself, and most of all, ease back the throttle a little bit. We all want answers right away, but the right answers usually take a little time to arrive at.

I congratulate you being in therapy in the first place - it takes guts to admit to ourselves that we might need a little help. It's a brave thing to do, and often the hardest part about therapy in general. That first step can be a big one to take. Well, you've taken it, and now you're on your way. You'll reach your destination. Don't spend all of your time looking ahead ot where you want to be, spend at least a little time trying to enjoy where you are right now. One foot in front of the other, lift foot, repeat.

[BadDay1972]

So, tell me Xhost. Do you believe I have HIV? or do you believe I had some weird virus that was just a coincidence producing all the same symptoms including the neuropathy?

[BadDay1972]

I've been to about 87 doctors who have done about 87,000 tests...The only thing I found was that I have high Triglycerides. And guess what I found out - when one has a high HIV viral load their triglycerides go up. So, I have been worried sick over this "no risk" incident because of all these symptoms that seem to point toward HIV. What would you do? I don't know what else to do...

[socgirl]

well...seems like you're beginning to head in the right direction.  You're seeing a therapist, you can at least admit that you know it's not really logical to believe you have HIV...so keep heading in that direction.  I hope you get out of this soon and are able to move on with the rest of your life.  Currently, you must live a pretty miserable existence if you're always worried you have HIV.

[BadDay1972]

Assuming my "possible exposure" would have had to been blood to blood contact in our mouths - and considering saliva doesn't transfer HIV because there isn't enough HIV quantity in saliva - would an 8 week negative be conclusive or do I need to test out longer because it would have been a blood exposure? Also, wouldn't this have been a high risk person considering she is a stripper? And what about if her viral load was high - wouldn't that make a difference? My point with all this is that science and "odds" don't seem to take into account these other factors like high viral load and the type of i guess "fluid" that transmits the virus - in my case it would have been blood.

Any thoughts???

[socgirl]

because she was/is a stripper does not make her high risk...generally speaking, strippers don't sleep with other people....your 8 week test was conclusive.  please move on with your life.  I will not respond to any follow-up questions.

[Nanson]

Looking at the whole thread, i'm sure you have serious emotional disorder. Please go back to where you were.

You have developped a habit of getting worried, so eliminate it!!!!

I posted the below one to QueryGirl, hope it of value to you! It's how i helped myself getting over the stupid habit of being worried!

"another tip for you, hope it'll help during this time.

Now that you're already got worried, and u can't get yourself out of the incidence that took place. The more u think, the more u get scared, the more hopeless u get.

Have ever asked yourself why you never felt this way before you became worried about HIV infection? Why it only happened after you search for the sympthom and it never gone away?

In fact, you have developped a habit: Finding reasons to convince yourself that you've been infected!!!

It's very hard to get over it, once it's become the habit.

But if you simply just wanna forget about the incidence, and wanna move on by accepting the fact that it's okay to live with some uncertainty in life, you will have to develop another habbit of carefree.

Statistics are different, but it's said habit will break in 21 days. Give yourself these 21 days by completely get away from the thinking that u're infected. Stop searching internet, stop worrying or noticing your symptom, stop asking people, move back to other routine things you've done before, Simply just do just exactly what u did before u niticed the sympthom and became worried!

Give yourself a moment of silence, and see what happens after 21 days. Wanna know my results? I almost entirely turned back to my normal state of mind. it's not gonna guarrantee the way the test will do for you, but if you think you're being irrational about the whole issue, try it!!! :)

All the best!"

[BadDay1972]

Here's what I don't understand...I've seen where Dr. H will tell a person who had gay anal sex that they should test out to 3 months and perhaps even 6 months over a SINGLE incident? Why is that? IF I test negative at 3 months I want that to be the end all to all of my HIV worries. Why does he consider anal sex as a reason to get tested out to 6 months? It's not like if you have anal sex it "might" take you longer to seroconvert. Why not 3 months and be done with it? I just have a bad feeling that I'll test NEGATIVE at 3 months but think about what Dr H said about testing out to 6 months and not be relieved thinking that I too will have to test out that far.

Any thoughts???