Please help me: Risk assessment ?

Dear all,

I am very scared and confused about my situation, and I truly need your help and guidance. The incident that I am very afraid of is as follows:

Deep French Kissing (Tongue and Lips) vigorously with HIV+ woman who is not on medication, and I do have cracked lips and bad gum.

I read so many posts on this wonderful sites, and I read many of Teak's inputs stating very strong and conclusive opinions e.g. : "No you cannot contact HIV from French kissing or any type of kissing".

For example: Please see this thread: (http://www.medhelp.org/posts/HIV-Prevention/fench-kissing/show/1674045#post_7638881) and read what Team wrote.

Then see the same person of the same scenario on: (http://www.medhelp.org/posts/HIV-Prevention/french-kissing/show/1674051) and you will read that Dr. H. Hunter Handsfield clearly and literally wrote that "That's not to say it can't happen"... You see... The doctor is saying that it is a risk.

Also, you can see Dr. H. Hunter Handsfield on (http://www.medhelp.org/posts/HIV-Prevention/My-situation-and-questions-about-HIV-/show/1631547) writing scary statements about risks of kissing like: "I can't say the risk is zero." and "Of course I can't guarantee you don't have HIV.".


I respect the knowledge of both Teak and Dr. H. Hunter Handsfield, and I am seeking your help to understand about my situation.

Please help me !

[RainLover71]

Yes,it's irrational thinking on your part because if kissing was a real risk the whole world would be infected by now,this is not the case.Kissing is not a mode of transmission for HIV infection.

[RainLover71]

You never had a risk and in 30 years of HIV/AIDS no one has ever contracted HIV this way.You won't make history.

[Max2012]

Dear RainLover71,

Thank you so much. I would like very much to believe you and Teak to move on with my life.

But what Dr. H. Hunter Handsfield says on the two aforementioned threads (Above) are making me very worry. Somehow, He insisted that Kissing is a risk and it is not fully zero.

Am I being irrational or what? Please help me!

[RainLover71]

Yes,it's irrational thinking on your part because if kissing was a real risk the whole world would be infected by now,this is not the case.Kissing is not a mode of transmission for HIV infection.

[Max2012]

I just want to ask about a well-known statement and it has been used on this great site so many times.

The statement is: "No reported cases about any one has ever contracted HIV from Kissing".

The argument I was told is that, Most people who engage in sexual activities do kiss, oral sex and penetration. So it is really hard to determine which activity has really transmitted the virus. Because the virus might be transmitted during oral sex but since the partners had sexual intercourse as well, then, the case is reported as a penetration risk.

What are your thoughts on this please ?

God bless each and everyone working on this forum.

[Teak]

No incident HIV infections among MSM who practice exclusively oral sex.
Int Conf AIDS 2004 Jul 11-16; 15:(abstract no. WePpC2072)??Balls JE, Evans JL, Dilley J, Osmond D, Shiboski S, Shiboski C, Klausner J, McFarland W, Greenspan D, Page-Shafer K?University of California, San Francisco, San Francisco, United States

Oral transmission of HIV, reality or fiction? An update
J Campo1, MA Perea1, J del Romero2, J Cano1, V Hernando2, A Bascones1
Oral Diseases (2006) 12, 219–228

AIDS: Volume 16(17) 22 November 2002 pp 2350-2352
Risk of HIV infection attributable to oral sex among men who have sex with men and in the population of men who have sex with men

Page-Shafer, Kimberlya,b; Shiboski, Caroline Hb; Osmond, Dennis Hc; Dilley, Jamesd; McFarland, Willie; Shiboski, Steve Cc; Klausner, Jeffrey De; Balls, Joycea; Greenspan, Deborahb; Greenspan
Page-Shafer K, Veugelers PJ, Moss AR, Strathdee S, Kaldor JM, van Griensven GJ. Sexual risk behavior and risk factors for HIV-1 seroconversion in homosexual men participating in the Tricontinental Seroconverter Study, 1982-1994 [published erratum appears in Am J Epidemiol 1997 15 Dec; 146(12):1076]. Am J Epidemiol 1997, 146:531-542.

Studies which show the fallacy of relying on anecdotal evidence as opposed to carefully controlled study insofar as HIV transmission risk is concerned:

Jenicek M. "Clinical Case Reporting" in Evidence-Based Medicine. Oxford: Butterworth–Heinemann; 1999:117
Saltzman SP, Stoddard AM, McCusker J, Moon MW, Mayer KH. Reliability of self-reported sexual behavior risk factors for HIV infection in homosexual men. Public Health Rep. 1987 102(6):692–697.Nov–Dec;

Catania JA, Gibson DR, Chitwood DD, Coates TJ. Methodological problems in AIDS behavioral research: influences on measurement error and participation bias in studies of sexual behavior. Psychol Bull. 1990 Nov;108(3):339–362.

There is no debate (among experts) about the HIV risks associated with oral sex. The risk is so low that almost nobody who cares for HIV infected patients has ever had a patient believed to have been infected that way. Among experts, it's a semantic issue about using terms like "no risk" and "very low risk". There is no difference between my or Dr. Hook's use of "low risk" and other experts' "no risk".
DR. HANSFIELD

"And oral sex is basically safe sex -- completely safe with respect to HIV and although not zero risk for other STDs, the chance of infection is far lower than for unprotected vaginal or anal sex. Please educate yourself about the real risks. If you stick with oral sex and condom-protected vaginal or anal sex, you have no HIV worries and very little worry about other STDs. " DR HANSFIELD

"I am sure you can find lots of people who believe that HIV is transmitted by oral sex, but you will not find scientific data to support this unrealistic concern..." DR HOOK

"HIV is not spread by touching, masturbation, oral sex or condom protected sex."- DR. HOOK

in the public HIV Prevention forum of MedHelp, TEAK and the other moderators maintain that oral sex in all forms is a zero risk activity. Would you agree with this assessment?
I TOTALLY AGREE / DR GARCIA
"HIV is not spread by masturbation, through oral sex, through kissing or other casual contact." Dr. Hook
"The observation on thousands and thousands of observations is that HIV is not spread by oral sex (of any sort)." DR HOOK
"I would not say your risk ,if he had HIV is "slim to none"- that's too high.  I would say they are effectively zero.  How much of his ejaculate or other genital  secretions you may have swallowed makes no difference.  EWH "
"As far as HIV is concerned, there is no known risk of getting HIV from performing oral sex on an infected partner, even if that person's genital secretions get into your eyes or if you swallow." Dr.Hook
HIV is not spread by oral sex, giving or receiving, even if sores, gum disease or blood is present
DR HOOK

[RainLover71]

I don't agree with that statement because you have to look at couples where one partner is infected with HIV and the other is not and they would kiss all the time and there have been studies where they would engage in unprotected oral sex and no transmission would ever take place.Many Hiv experts will tell you that kissing and oral sex are zero risk for HIV transmission.

[Max2012]

Thank you Teak.

My last question to you is, Could you please see my original post (The First post) and tell me your opinion about why Dr. H. Hunter Handsfield is suspicious about the Kissing risk of HIV+ and he somehow considers it a risk?

For example: Please see this thread: (http://www.medhelp.org/posts/HIV-Prevention/fench-kissing/show/1674045#post_7638881) and read what Team wrote.

Then see the same person of the same scenario on: (http://www.medhelp.org/posts/HIV-Prevention/french-kissing/show/1674051) and you will read that Dr. H. Hunter Handsfield clearly and literally wrote that "That's not to say it can't happen"... You see... The doctor is saying that it is a risk.

[Teak]

HIV is transmitted by;
Unprotected penetrative anal and/or vaginal sex
Sharing works with other IV drug abusers
Mother to child

[Max2012]

Thank you very much Teak and RainLover71.

Your opinions are well-taken, and my doctor insisted on my to get HIV test and based on your thoughts, It is not needed at all.  Right - Please confirm?

[RainLover71]

Find another doctor who knows what there talking about,this doctor doesn't.You don't require an HIV test.

[Teak]

It's not an opinion it's fact. You never had an exposure from french kissing and you don't need to test and yes your doctor was incorrect.