Precautions of Children and HIV

I just recently found out that my children's grandmother (their fathers mother) is HIV positive. I by no means want to eliminate her contact with her grandchildren, however I do believe that a basic understanding needs to be established before hand.

Their father and I can not seem to agree on the matter at hands and instead it's causing huge disagreements. Our children are ages 4 and 1. So needless to say, they are active, they fall, they constantly are scrapped and scratched.
My 1 year old is a typical toddler --putting everything in her mouth, etc. They're just normal children.

I have asked that the children not be left alone with her. For one, they are just not old enough to understand and should something happen (she has epilespy as well for example), not be able to take the precautions needed.

I've also asked that they not eat or drink after her. She's famous for 'sharing' her drinks with the kids, but as mentioned, they're typical kids, and whose knows the cuts they have? Not to mention the cutting teeth of my youngest.

I've also chose to dress them in pants and to make sure they have socks and shoes on when at her house. This is in effort to protect their banged and scratched knees, etc. (I didn't ask this, but I just chose to do it...because so much turmoil started just with the first two above mentioned request)

Am I (if possible) being too cautious?
Their father is now accusing me of being heartless and cold. He's accusing me of pouring salt into a wound, so to say...not caring about his mother, but causing her more hurt.

I just feel like I can not be safe enough, nor do I think I've asked for anything above and beyond.
I am actually offended myself, that HE as the children's father is not just as concerned as I am.
I'm also dumbfound that their grandmother wouldn't want to protect her grandchildren as well.

Even if the risk are slight...isn't it still worth it to just be safe?? I don't believe I've been unfair in my request.

Am I wrong?

Are there other things that I need to take precautions with or watch for?

Please advise!!

[ExtremeStress]

You have a valid reason to be worried (because you are a caring mom not because there is a risk involved). From general contact (hugging, eating, drinking, bathing). I am sure the Grandmother in this incident is taking necessary precautions as would you if the shoe was on the other foot. She has had kids on her own and understands the worry that you have. She would not put the grandchildren in danger. HIV/AIDS is not that easy to transmit. If you are this worried over the grandmother. What about school teachers, lunch personnel, P. E. Coaches even some medical professional that are infected and havy daily contact with your kids/ kids food/ health. Basically I am saying there is no risk with the type of contact that you are referring to. If it was that contagious more people would be infected than there are. Though you have the right to worry, don't alienate family over non-risk contact.

[Worried_Mom2]

Well in all honesty, I don't trust their grandmother to take all precautions.  I've never trusted her with the well being of my children even before this because of the choices she makes in her own life.  I have given her chances though and she's proven not to be trustworthy.   As for her understanding because she has her own children---she walked out on all of them at young ages and only came back around when they were adults, because she wanted them to take care of her.
I think that's why I'm so uncomfortable, the truth is, I was never comfortable to begin with...

Don't get me wrong, I've been around HIV infected people...I even volunteered at a hospital, and it never worried me.  But now I have children...I look at everything differently.
My brother even has a blood disorder (can not be passed), but regardless, I do remember the stigma he endured when diagnosed (at only 9 yrs old) which has carried through the years.
So, trust me, to be judgmental I am not!!

Nevertheless,
Thank you for your reply and ease given on my concerns at hand!

[ExtremeStress]

Based off your comments and reply, there is a little more to it than the H.I.V. Have you talked to your husband about your thought of her as just a person. I agree with your choice in that instance. My wife is pregnant with twins and I wouldn't let them be alone with my mother for the same reason. Me and my wife have discussed this bfore kids, but now it is a very real situation (because of the two on the way). Ultimately there are only two people who will ever feel at fault if something tragic happened to their child (mother/Father). Together you and him will make the best decision.

[allthesigns]

Not to sound crude but unless your 4 or 1 year old decide to screw around with granny our shoot up heroin with her there just is no risk of infection.  

[allthesigns]

At the same time I do understand that the are your children and that you want to take precautions.  If being cautious makes you feel better then keep doing it, but again there is no realistic risk that they will become infected.  

[ExtremeStress]

she also said she doesn't trust her for other reasons not just HIV.

[allthesigns]

You're right, sorry.  Someone with epilepsy probably should never be left alone with two small children.  I completely understand the concerns, but with regard to HIV sharing drinks and casual contact has never been shown to transmit the virus.  Does your husband accompany his mother to her doctor's appointments??  Maybe he could speak with her physician about the proper precautions to take.  

[ExtremeStress]

she says in her reply post! The grandmonther isn't trustworthy and hasn't been very responsible in her decision making in her own life for a very long time. You keep posting to people's first post and not reading everyones comments or reactions to the post. I saw you do it on a couple of others. Not nagging! It just makes it easier reading. TC

[Teak]

This has nothing to do with HIV.

[Worried_Mom2]

Okay, I'm going to try to answer all of this.

As for the doctor's visits, no he hasn't went with her, but we just found on 4 days ago (the same day she did) that she was HIV positive.  She also tested positive for Herpes---unsure of any precautions to take there as well, if any.

I've been doing my best to study up on HIV and it's risk.  I am actually a very well educated person (when it comes to books), but I've just never had to encounter a situation like this, I really don't mean to come off as a heart-less monster.


As for her lifestyle...before this, their father and I actually both agreed that we weren't happy with her lifestyle and he actually voiced it more than I did before this.  

However, there has always been some tension concerning her being around the children.  For example, she offered to be the babysitter for $100 a week (nearly half of what we were paying) to keep the kids.
Their father wasn't completely against this because of the money.  However, I absolutely refused!  Cutting cost is not the route when it comes to the children's well-being!!
(And just FYI---she's refuses to work, stating that she's disabled and can not work...yet she wants to keep kids?!?!?  I find that extremely contradicting!)

She has stolen from my children (just to give you insight on her morals), as well as directly ignored my request as their mother, such as, she's the type person that will medicate a child to make them sleep (and has done so), whereas I'm the type person that uses medication as last resorts for any reason.  
Her attitude is always "what I don't know doesn't hurt me."  And she's been caught stating that, which to me, is complete disregard and respect for me AND my children!!

She has also been caught and is known for her drug usage IN the presence of her grandchildren!!
(However, she become infected through sexual intercourse with someone)

Anyway,  although their father and I both agree that she isn't exactly the "role model" that we want for our children (to say it nicely)...and HE even holds his own resents for her lack of mothering with him personally  (walking out on him at age 7)...
He still has that bond, because it is, afterall his mother and I understand that.

But to me, there is no comparasion in hurting her feelings v. my children's well-being when it comes down to that stance, whereas for him, there is.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to "hurt" anyone...but I won't look the other way either if I feel my children's best interest is not being taken!


So needless to say, I just don't trust her as a person, and haven't even before this!
But now, I'm even concerned for them even when I'm RIGHT THERE!


I understand that sharing drinks and such doesn't pose a real risk.  But let's elaborate on that, just for example....

I understand the HIV/AIDS patients are more likely to develop mouth sores in general (that's what studies state and let's add the fact that she has herpes, because she does...)...She also is a smoker (which causes gum problems, right?), and she has no teeth (she does wear dentures 99% of the time) but wouldn't you most likely cut your gums with no teeth even just by eating than with teeth?...My point is, her mouth is going to be a problem area, correct?  For sores, cuts, etc.

Repeat the fact that I have young children (the youngest still teething)...

Am I wrong to request separate cups??  Even if the risk is 0.000000000001%, why not just eliminate it all together??  But when I asked this, everyone took offense.  She did, instead of being understanding, she was extremely offensive, their father (who for the past four days has done nothing but insult me about being heartless because of this...)

I know I'm not the victim here.  (In all honestly I don't believe there is a victim because of her chosen lifestyle, she put herself at risk.)  But am I wrong to think that myself, my children and everyone else needs understanding from her, just as she request it from us?  We're ALL dealing with this!

To add to it, because I obviously can not trust her and because their father obviously isn't going to walk this path BESIDE ME...I chose to have a "talk" with my son (the 4 yr. old) and attempt to take my own precautions.  He's an extremely smart lil' boy.

So, I told him that nanny was sick and he wasn't to drink or eat after her.  He said she has "germie bugs, like I had in my throat" (that's what he calls it...and he'd just had strep)...I told him yes, but nanny has germie bugs in her blood and medicine doesn't make those germie bugs go away like they did his.  (that's the best way I knew how to discuss this on a 4 year old level).
So I continued..."no drinking or eating after nanny"...
(He understands that concept just from colds, or even his sore throat when he wasn't to share with anyone because they didn't want his 'germie bugs', etc.)

So when we first got to his nanny's, as any kid would, he said "are you sick nanny"..."mommy said you're sick"...and he continues with..."you got germie bugs in your blood??"...
He was just being a curious, questioning, yet concerned child...
yet I might as well have been sentenced to death with the look that I got.

[Teak]

There is no way possible for your kids to get infected by their grandmother without having sex with her.. They can drink or eat after her without a risk. None of this has anything to do with HIV. What it does have to do with, is your dislike for your mother in law. What kind of mother would tell a four year old that their grandmother has HIV? That is tasteless and disgusting. You deserved the look you received.  

[Worried_Mom2]

First off, I understand that you're going to look at things differently, because you have been diagnosed with HIV (I've read your story on other boards)...

I understand that you've been the subject of being judged with your dealings with this!  But how dare you judge ME for having concern for my children!!

I came here to get advice, to attempt to educate myself of the issue at hand as NOT to cause undue hardship on anyone...I did NOT come here to be ridiculed for loving my children!!

Understand this, you are correct, I do not agree with the lifestyle of my children's grandmother...and I didn't (before this) trust her to be left alone with my children, because of her PROVEN inability to look out for their best interest!!

However, I did NOT 100% eliminate her from their life and would not do so EVEN NOW...but this is new to me, I'm learning and dealing with it, just as she's learning and dealing with it...the family is learning and dealing with it....

I did NOT tell my 4 year old that his grandmother had HIV (like he would even know what that is)...I did tell him (on a 4 year old level) that his nanny was sick.

At 4 years old, he's already experienced the hospitialization of a grandparent and the death of a greatgrandparent.  Does you suggest I lie to my child???  Because I find that "tasteless and disgusting!!"

This was told to me (about her having HIV) and then I was immediately thrown into this situation, without the chance to discuss it, without the chance to educate myself...I felt at the time that my concerns were going unheard, so I did what I thought was best at the moment and that was to give my child some ability to protect himself.

I find it extremely offensive that I get judged like this!!
I admit that I don't know the answers, which is why I'm seeking them...
and as to not stereotype.
Yet you find it's okay to do so to me???

[dumbo]

" But how dare you judge ME for having concern for my children!! "

he does it all the time and people fall for it and bend to his way eventually.  You do not owe him anything and you do not need to be politically correct.  You do not need to defend yourself either.  Anyone with half a brain and who is not as selfish and self centered as Teak and the Gay lobby, would understand you want to protect your children first and others second.  Your children come first obviously.  I acknowledge you have not told your 4 year old about HIV and I see your logic for doing so, and I think it is accurate.  Your child will not have a clue about HIV at all.

I have a mother as selfish as your mother in law and I know how it is.  I do not speak to her and my life has been better for it.  Something to think about as people like this rarely ever change and they suck the life out of you and cause stress to your immediate family.  Somehting your kids are probably better off without seeing as it can damage for life.  Ask me how I know.

On to your questions.  It is impossible for your children to get HIV unless they are directly injected with hiv contaminated blood.  How would that happen?  Well, some type of needle or sharp object with relatively fresh blood.  The odds say this is extremely unlikely to ever happen.  I would assume that your mother in law would not be quite this selfish to put them in any harms way, especially as she becomes more informed about hiv.  

these are the facts.  HIV is a fragile virus and it is very hard for it to infect unless under certain conditions.  It must find certain cells to infect that are deeper inside the body and in the blood.  It is a blood borne disease, not like a cold.

Drinking out of a cup, eating off the same utensils (should this stuff ever happen) is not a risk for HIV transmission.  Saliva is NOT infectious and HIV does not survive in the environment.  Many studies have proven this.  It is VERY hard for researchers to keep HIV alive in controlled conditions, let alone in the environment.  It loses its ability to infect very quickly.  Since you seem well read and logical, so think about this, if environmental surfaces could potentially infect people, or if it did happen with any frequency, you would see a category for this in th esurveillance data that the governing bodies of individual countries publish.  No such category exists.  If it were that easy the media would lap it up like Jello and we would know it, right?

So in closing, you need to decide what you are comfortable with your kids being exposed to, whether it is a risk for HIV transmission or not.  To put it bluntly, fck what anyone else says, especially TEAK.  Just realize, HIV is not spread easily and chances your kids woud ever become infected are pretty much nil.  Maybe once your mother in law has more information about HIV and possibly less selfish, she will be sensitive and understanding to your concerns.  I suggest talking to an HIV transmission expert,such as Dr HHH in his forum and he will clear the air for you.  he is the expert around here, nobody else.  I am sure he will be glad to help clarify potential risks.
good luck.

[Teak]

What potential risk could her kids possible have. NONE!! It's time you left the forum. So go bye to you.

[allthesigns]

HIV or not, it sounds like the kids should never be left with the grandmother alone.

[dumbo]

I refuse to get into your games of deflection.  If you took the time to read my post I said there is no risk and clearly laid out the facts.  Too bad you don't like the fact I expose your false claims and statements time and time again.  You don't like it, then leave.  That is your choice to make.

However, it is the mothers choice to raise her children however she chooses whether you or I agree with it or not.  You cannot force anyone to accept something that you want them to accept.  It's like the "war" in Iraq.  It will never end.  The US is trying to jam something down the throats of a civilization that does not believe in the same things that the US does.  It will never work.  The more jamming there is the more resistance there will be.  Goes for anything.

cheers

[Teak]

The is an HIV forum not a forum on how to raise one's child. This has nothing to do with HIV.

[dumbo]

See what I mean.  why did you comment on how she was raising her kids then??  such hypocrisy......AGAIN.

why didn't you just comment that there is no risk and leave it at that then?

[Teak]

It wasn't hyprocrisy at all. This is not an HIV concern, it's a family problem. If you don't know what HIV stigma is, (which I know you have no idea.) Then you would understand, but then I wouldn't expect you to due to your lack of knowledge about HIV and people living with this disease.

[dumbo]

I have no interest in learning about people living with this disease and I have no interest in trying to understand.  Why should I?  Please explain?  Do people try to understand my health issues? nope.  Do I try to force them? nope again.  I stick a needle in my belly a few times everyday, if I don't I will die.  You, you have to take some pills and that's it.  If AIDS takes your life, it takes years...many years, yet I may not wake up or die tomorrow, but I should try to understand you and the stigma surrounding you.??  Yep, typical and of course selfish.  I accept things as they are and move on with my life.  

as I said before, the more you try to force something onto people, the more resistance there is.  So in essence you create your own stigma.  And the stigma only escalates when deflection tactics are used to the wrong areas.

I hope you are doing well.

[Teak]

You have no business being on an HIV forum.

[dumbo]

Oh,Im sorry.  does it take away some of your thunder and sympathy??

[Teak]

If  you want to discuss your illness, here is the proper forums for you to discuss your problems. This is a forum on HIV not diabetes.

http://www.medhelp.org/forums/diabetes/index.htm

[Worried_Mom2]

Teak from what I've seen so far, the 'stigma' surrounding you has nothing to do with you having HIV, it's the fact that you're a complete *** about life!!

I came here to get educated about HIV to avoid posing unneeded stigma.

If you want to be an advocate about your conditions, how about doing it in a more positive way!  Help people learn the risk and the non-risk.  Help them understand it from your view...

But don't judge them and degrade them when they are in fact trying to learn, trying to educate themselves and trying to understand.

I never claimed that my 'theories' were right, I never claimed that my thoughts were rational, in fact I said I didn't know, that's what brought me here.

But your comments....

Well, I'm not a gambling person, but I think it's a safe bet to say...your "stigma" and lack of people around you, how they judge you...
It has nothing to do with HIV
It's your attitude!!!

Who wants to befriend a jackass?

[Worried_Mom2]

ExtremeStress, Allthesigns & Dumbo

Thank you all greatly for your support and understanding, and thank you for your advice in helping me understand the situation better!!  It honestly has really helped me feel better about the issues at hand.  (Still don't trust her for the person she is...but that was the case before this)

This is about raising my children (as teak stated)....WITH A HIV POSITIVE FAMILY MEMBER!  (I think he missed that)...thus the reason for being under the "HIV prevention forum"...

But I'd expect it takes some from of an educated guess to correlate the two, huh?  *sigh*

Dumbo,
I hope whatever your situation is (diabetes??) that you have success in living a long life.

Thank you all again!!!

And Teak,
I really hope you can turn things around for you...and use your situation to help better the world in a positive way by teaching, educating and setting an example.
No one is going to care to understand you and no one will ever sympathize with you because of the manner that you go about things!!  
And I know that's probably built into your personality through the years, so much so that you'll even write some smartass comment back to this.  But you know, I was taught that the people full of hate needed the most love.  Take Care!  

[Teak]

I don't ask for, nor do I want sympathy because I have AIDS. This disease has been around for over 25 years and will continue to be around until a cure is found which will not be in the near future. My smartass replies as you put it was in response to your ignorance, when you said that you've been around other HIV persons and you worked in a hospital. If you had really wanted to know the answers you would have contacted your family doctor or an STD clinic, instead of coming to a forum of worried wells. You ranted and raved more about your mother in laws morals. Then you went on to say to your four old son, "So, I told him that nanny was sick and he wasn't to drink or eat after her.  He said she has "germie bugs, like I had in my throat" (that's what he calls it...and he'd just had strep)...I told him yes, but nanny has germie bugs in her blood and medicine doesn't make those germie bugs go away like they did his.  (that's the best way I knew how to discuss this on a 4 year old level)." You asked if you should lie, well the answer you gave was a lie. He can't get HIV from eating, drinking after her, nor can he contract HIV from giving her hugs and kisses. I agree with you kids father totally.

[Worried_Mom2]

Well thank you for agreeing, because 'my kids father' and I had a lengthy discussion yesterday---and He agrees with me!!

As for my "ignorance"...I have now spoke with doctors, I've been reading books and yes, I came here too (because I did find about about this on a weekend--hard to get in touch with 'doctors' then!!!)...I was exercising every mean possible to get ANY and ALL information!!  That makes me ignorant??  *Shaking head*  

Tell me, what prompts you to just keep coming to THIS board only to degrade people?!??!  You tell other posters it has nothing to do with blah blah blah...go away---So why not just look the other way yourself...I actually do feel sorry for you, not because of the HIV, but because you obviously feel the need to insult people for your own kicks.  You have internal issues!!!

As for my son and handling this situation---Safe to assume your not a parent, huh??

Grow up and get real!!

I have nothing more to say to you, so don't waste your time responding back, I will not read it.  Unless of course you just need to validate yourself for whatever purpose you feel is necessary to just come here and make more of a jerk of yourself...
as for me....I'll utilize one of the golden rules now..."If you have nothing nice to say...say nothing at all"  (a lesson you need to learn!)

Goodbye!

[dumbo]

Dont worry about teak he only thinks f himself.  he is very angry at the world and wants to instill fear into others because of it.  

I hope your marriage does not suffer due to this.  I really hope your children do not feel any animosity or confusion and fear about it either especially if you choose to maintain communications with your mother in law.  Sometimes it is just better to let things go and accept they will never change.  

Good luck and remember you have done nothing wrong.  Your thoughts and concerns are valid and at least you are trying to educate yourself.  Any HIV infected person will be offended by your concerns, but do not take it personally.  If anything, you should be offended that you have to defend yourself and your actions simply because you love your children.  There are many parents that don't!

I hope someday you will encounter an HIV infected person who can put themselves in YOUR shoes rather than you having to cater to them.  this person will understand you and in an effort to try to alleviate your concerns by telling you how HIV is transmitted and how there really is no risk to your children by being around someone with HIV, skinned knees or not.  :)

Your kids are #1.  Keep it that way and **** what everyone else thinks.

[Teak]

I hope this disease instills fear and it should, instead of ignorance that you spew.

[dumbo]

So let me get this straight, you hope it instills fear, and the mother here is fearful, yet you tell her she is ignorant for being fearful???

LOL.....

[Worried_Mom2]

LOL, I would have ceased communications with her before now if the choice was really mine.  
But you know...not many people do like their 'monster-in-law', I believe mine is just more extreme....

But I didn't choose life with her, I chose life with her son!!  He's who I love, so for him, I have to tolerate her.  (that's why we all do it, isn't it?)...
However, considering she walked out on him as a child (and his two siblings), I wouldn't have expected her to return---and especially with hands out!!  (Not arms, please note the difference!!)  But she did...and I, just like the rest of the family--we have really tried our best to give tolerance.  (because regardless...she is 'family")

It's just really hard to have compassion for someone that doesn't try, that doesn't care about themselves, that hurt the people they should love unconditionally.
I mean, she left her children for men and drugs and that's been her lifestyle for years...
then returned when they were adults (w/ children of their own to provide for) and said her children owe her?!?!?!  Because the bible states "Honor thou Mother" (YES, She actually said that!!!!), but she refuses to get a job (although, she does honestly work harder than anyone I know with a job, trying to get hand outs!!) She refuses to do anything to help herself...we're just suppose to feel pity and "owe" her?!?!  
What is that?!?!?!?

*Sigh*  Okay, NOW I AM getting into a rant and rave away from the board topic...

The truth is, we had little dealings with her to begin with because of her lifestyle and ways, so I don't foresee having to deal with this on numerous occasions anyway.

But I do sincerely thank you for your understanding, support and confirmation of worries for the times that we do...IF this is even the case now.
(It's speculated now that she made this up for a sympathy hand-out----it wouldn't be the first time, but not to THIS extreme!!  Isn't that just crazy?!?!)

Anyway thanks again for your understanding.
I'd actually like to speak to you at some point about diabetes as well  (assuming that's what you were referring too earlier)....but not here, I'm not impressed too much with alot of the people here on these forums.

I can't tell if some people are trying to be sickly funny (which I don't find humorous) with their post, or if they are just less educated than I am on the matters at hand.  
And I do take offense to be ridiculed for trying to do what I feel is right by 'certain' people here!

[regularjoey]

I didn't read the entire exchange, but I will add my 2 cents: no real need for you to worry about HIV - it never happens in regular household settings.  I do however gather that you generally don't trust your mother-in-law and that she may be mentally unstable.  The only realistic way this lady will pose threat to your children is if she will deliberately poke them with needles that she used to poke herself with.  If you think that she is the kind of a psychotic person that will do such a thing - then of course you should not leave your toddlers under her watch (actually even if she did not have HIV).  If not - that is not a problem.

[Worried_Mom2]

I think "mentally unstable" is a generally nice way to put it!

Thank you for your response!!
I don't think she uses needles.  I don't know that for sure.  I do know that she does drugs (whatever she can get her hands on), but I don't think it's in the form of 'shooting up', I've never seen track marks anyway.  But then I don't know tons about drug usage either.

To my knowledge the HIV that she claims to have been infected with (as mentioned above, we're not so sure now that she didn't make it up), was supposedly caught (is that the right term?) through intercourse with a guy.

In all honesty, she basically prositutes herself to guys for money and things.  I mean, she doesn't walk the streets or anything, but informally, that's what she does.  And my understanding of it, is that's what she has always 'operated' (that coming from family members)

I do not trust her to take ANY precautions to protect my children (who are too young at the moment to know any better and protect themselves).  I don't know that she would 'intentionally' expose them (I can't fathom someone being THAT demented), but at the same time I can't say she would 'intentionally' try not to either.  (If that makes sense).

Nevertheless, thanks again for your response.

I'm actually learning a lot about what's a risk and what's not, it's great help in dealing with this!  (should this be true, and even if not, it's a great educational experience in just helping to learn about and understand this virus/disease, I will one day (when they are older) need to educate my children about this, not just because of her, but in general.)

Sincere thanks!

[dumbo]

If this is the case, and she is into this lifestyle, I would not hesitate to cut all ties with her, son or not.

Now, back to the forum, not sure what to say on the claim of HIV infection she has made, whether it is true or not.  But, I have seen this before, especially in drug users and alcoholics, where they lose sense of reality and do not even realize what is real anymore.  

But again, if she does have HIV, then your children will not get it from her in a household setting as has been mentioned..  On the other hand, I am sure you will never leave them alone with her, not even for a second....because of past history.  

she could definitely have got HIV with her lifestyle no ifs ands or buts about it.  Drugs, multiple sex partners probably without condoms, you bet she could get it.  Patterns of behavior ar ethe biggest predictors for hiv infection.  She seems to have it all.

good luck

[Worried_Mom2]

Just wondering...(and please no bashing)...

As I'm trying to educate myself and as I'm reading these boards, everything makes it sound as if it's near impossible to get HIV.  I mean it's almost like you have to work at it.

(I know that's not the case)....but if it's sooooo hard, then why do sooooo many people have it??  Seriously?

I understand the whole "drug and sharing needles"...

And I guess I understand the "gay man" a little (less than the needles but more than the others)...

But what about the women that were raped, or the women (like in my 'grandmother' case, all other factors aside)....that claim it was a 'one time' intercourse.  (We all have heard, in fact, it only takes once...which is pointless to say anyway, right? Of course it only takes ONCE)...

What about the straight men?
Or even the gay men... I get that intercourse there (anal) will likely cause more tears than a guy have (vaginial) intercourse with a girl, but isn't the logic in EITHER case not the same??  It still has to get IN there through a tiny opening.  

Though I guess with a girl you have natural lubricants too (Vaginially)...
whereas on the other side, the 'dryness' could cause tears in that male as well (this goes for any male experiencing anal intercourse, whether with male or female btw, I would just think it's safe to assume that gay men have more anal intercourse than straight men though obviously)

(Not trying to be graphic, just kind of thinking out loud.)

Anyway, I'm reading and reading and it's almost like unless you shoot drugs you really have to work hard to be infected, not as hard as if you're a gay man (who too have to work for it more than the drug users).

But, I know that can not be the case, so why all the reassurances that it's near impossible to get it, yet so many people have it?

Just makes me wonder if the 'science' of it is all correct or if things are not being stated just in attempt to avoid public panic.

I'm not trying to be 'stupid'---I've seen the post that even I believe are just outragous, (as lil' as I know about the matter) and I sincerely hope that wasn't the class I was thrown into, thus the reasoning for the earlier insults, I'm being sincerely honest...curious for knowledge.  ACCURATE knowledge though.

Thanks!

[dumbo]

Legit questions.  It is a tough disease to get yes, thankfully.  It is a deadly disease but ironically a fragile one until it infects.  the virus must travel from inside one person to inside another with RNA strands intact.  the virus must then find a t cell in the blood, once inside it can prepare to replicate.  If infection happens, it begins to replicate almost immediately.  HIV is not like a flu or cold virus which lives in the lungs/throat etc which crosses a mucous membrane easily.  HIV does not cross easily and it takes large concentrations to infect.  Hence the reason tears and saliva are not infectious because concentrations are too low to infect.  Saliva also contains certain enzymes that kill HIV.  This is why your kids are not at risk for HIV when exposed to these circumstances.

Blood and semen are different stories.  They both contain high concentraitons of HIV, and given the right pathways into a persons body (i.e. direct blood contact) can cause infection.  Vaginal fluids typically contain lower concentrations of hiv as well and the infectious fluid is typicall found deeper in the vagina at the cervix, not at the opening or near the opening.

why does it seem people have to work at getting hiv?  Well, make no mistake, it only takes once.  It is not a cumulative effect.  But, because it is a fragile virus, it does not necessarily infect every time unless the moons and stars are lined up f you know what I mean.   Patterns of bahvior are the leading predictors of infection.  That is why so much emphasis is placed on this specific area.  HIV needs blood contact to infect and it needs a large concentration to do so.   there have been many many reports of serodiscordant couples (male/male, or female, male) who have had unprotected sex for years and the negative partner did not become infected.  there are obviously several that have though too but not as many as one would think.

Anything I have ever read says the same thing.  The bum is not meant for sex.  Period.  It is prone to trauma from intercourse and bleeding will usually occur.  The vagina is built for insertion and giving birth.  So there are alot protections in place by the body to "block" invaders.  How often do yo usee blood with vaginal intercourse?  I have but only when it is dry, as in being drunk and horny and trying to have sex.  Otherwise it is rare.  The surface contact area of the vagina is larger than a mans only opening thru the urethra.  For such a fragile virus to infect a man thru his urethra without any other ports of entry (i.e herpes sores, cuts, etc) cross a mucous membrane, find the correct cells, and "park" itself to then begin replicating is a tough journey.  when it has direct blood access, the journey is not so tough.  

You may think alot of people have HIV, and worldwide when you include Africa, yes there are alot ~40million or so total.....diabetes affects 20million in the US alone.  Anyway, HIV only infects about 0.3% of the total US population and is concentrated on specific groups for the most part.  There has been ~1000000 infections since 1985, cumulative.  Not much in the big scheme of things.  Don't get me wrong, I am sad when any human life is affected and lost by disease, or even natural causes. But the infection rates are not as dynamic as they want you to believe.  The original estimates in the 80's were dire and threatened over 1/3 of the population so they said...never happened and never will.

I always use porn as an example.  How many times does a porn star have sex with random partners in a day? week? month??  how many of them are there? lots!!  The HIV infection rate is only about 3-4 per year from what I can find.  Alot of anal sex takes place in these films too.  Not sure about gay porn although I have read that there is new concern due to a lack of condom use now.  It is not because of frequent testing although that does help, the test is only good for the day it was done.

So in closing, it is a hard disease to get.  But by living certain lifestyles the risks are higher, but not guaranteed either.  Goto bathouses and have sex with multiple men over and over and chances are very high for infection.  Stick a used needle in your arm and chances are very high as well.  

I am no expert and there are none in this forum.  I highly suggest you ask Dr.HHH some of these questions that he will answer very clearly for you and without all the abuse you took here.

[regularjoey]

Again, excuse me if I am missing something - I am not reading the entire thread.

Basically, there are multiple factors that determine whether HIV gets transmitted or not - viral load, viral genetics, host genetics, presence of other STDs, tears in the mucosal surface and many others.  Random luck also plays some part in this.  Certain practices are riskier than others, with receptive anal sex being by far the riskiest sexual practice.  Why?  Well, for one thing the rectum is lined with only a single layer of epithelial cells, while the vagina is lined with a stratified layer of cells.  It is easier for HIV to get through a single layer of epithelium than the thick vaginal epithelium.

So you probably know by now that infectious body fluids are semen, blood, vaginal fluids and breast milk.  Saliva, tears and sweat are not considered infectious for HIV - only small amounts of active virus found there.  Going back to your situation, the only way your children could be exposed to HIV is if they are exposed to her blood, i.e. if she deliberately pokes herself in the vein and then injects the kids.  She would have to be pure evil to do that!  I do not think you need to worry about that much.  On the other hand, if she is a drug abuser and a prostitute I would think twice about leaving kids on her watch anyway.  But that is for you to decide and it is a completely HIV-unrelated issue.  

All the best to you

[Worried_Mom2]

Wow, that's alot of reading to take in, but high thanks dumbo!
I'm going to have to read it again in parts, break it down to try to really understand it all.
I'm sure I'll have more questions then...

Thanks to you too joey.
You've given me alot of terms to just look up and understand.

As for the "grandmother" situation, I think I have that under control now.  And no, I don't think she's completely heartless, she just doesn't have a keen sense of reality and obviously no respect for people (including herself).  DIGINITY!!  Gotta have diginity and it's one thing you should never give away!
And you're right, and I never did leave the kids in her watch anyway.


I'm not going to lie about the situation, I've really thought about it (with Teak's help ironically...through his rudeness  lol), I'm not sure whether I paniced because I was looking for MORE reason to eliminate her out of our lives or what.  I mean I could say I wouldn't do that and so far I haven't, but it's not because I haven't wanted to (nothing to do with HIV), I just don't think she's any type of role model of my children.  I struggle with how do I teach them to love unconditionally, yet understand that what she does is NOT acceptable.  (Parents, I know you understand what I'm trying to say) and also, I just don't like to be around her.  No one would, all she does is whine and ask for money, throws herself a 'pity party' and I have no tolerance for that, because as I mentioned, she doesn't TRY to help herself!
She's not a victim of life, she's just a user!

But enough on that tangit.

Thanks again guys!

[Brian123]

on, I've really thought about it (with Teak's help ironically...through his rudeness  lol)


I have been on here for a couple of years.  It is hard to convey tone on the web, but I DO KNOW that Teak does know what he is talking about.   As far as I see it, even though Teak has HIV, he is truely a courageous person.  Nonetheless, he is here to give the CORRECT advice, not the advice of some fools on here who know absolutely nothing about HIV/AIDS.  After all, I see no reason why he would WASTE his time answering anxiety-driven threads to people who have no risk,...after all, he does not have to, and as far as I have been on here, he has given out concrete assurance to people who have or have not had a sexual/drug risk.

[dumbo]

"he is truely a courageous person"

Why do you say this Brian?  I see children who are far far more courageous than he is with far more debilitating diseases that they did not ask for and never complain about.  So what makes him courageous?  Simply becaus ehe has aids?  he has lived for 20+ years with it. I have seen people die from nasty diseases (children included) that take you far quicker.  So, he has it pretty good to still be alive don't you think?  

It is sad to see anyone's life affected by death, disease and or hardship, truly.  But to say he is some kind of hero simply because he has AIDS has left me perplexed.    

He is very selfish and self centered based on the many posts I have read from him.  He is NOT an expert, having a disease does not make one an expert at all.  A TRUE, expert, such as Dr. HHH, will tell the truth about the realities of a disease,not constant fear mongering that scares people needlessly.

Let me also say,that HIV is now being compared to other diseases that can be managed with due care....such as Diabetes.  HIV patients take pills, Diabetics inject.  But with care to lifestyle lives can be extended for almost a "normal" lifespan.  I have read this even from HIV infected people on aidsmeds.com and will show the links if I can find them again.  HIV/AIDs deaths are down dramatically from the date of the outbreak.  Drugs are getting better, and more is known about how to manage it (i.e. medications, proper nutrition, exercise etc).  People only panic about HIV because of the 80's and how much the media published about how AIDS was killing gay males so quickly.  So today, this "stigma" is still there and fear of AIDS is apparent (look at this forum).  am I saying it is ok to put yourself at risk??...not at all!!.  But what I am saying is people should be informed about the progresses being made.  Of course the other end of the spectrum is people, such as young gay/bi males, are having and will have sex without condoms and increase the HIV infection rate because they figure that an HIV cure has been found.  Its a double edged sword.  I personally think, give people correct accurate "honest" information and then they can make up their own minds what risks they are willing to take.  Nobody can stop them but let me tell yuo that fear based agendas are wrong.  People become "worn" down by them and eventually say "fffkkk" it and throw all caution to the wind.  Studies have been done on this very subject.

Condom use is obviously on the decline for the above reason.  People are tired of it.  Shoudl they be using them? yes of course.  But looking at the STD rates for more common easier to get STD's, it is clear condoms use is not the norm.

Anyway,please answer my question.

thanks

[Brian123]

"So, he has it pretty good to still be alive don't you think? "

First of all, I am not on here to JUDGE anyone or anybody's behavior, lifestyle, etc....as SO MANY ON HERE DO!

I just do not get the emphasis on GAYS and AIDS.  
NEWS ALERT!!!!: AIDS DOES AFFECT HETEROSEXUALS!!

Dumbo,
I think you have a lot to offer to the forum, I think you need to "TwEAK" (no pun intended) your advice a little. Your advice often seems all-too-much one-sided, ...such as "Well, if your not a homosexual, etc..)

The truth of the matter is,.....your giving advice to a LIVNG BREATHING human being on the other end of this computer. What if,......for instance you are talking to someone you have provided then "6 week valid test ****" to and finds out that he really had HIV , but did not know it because he actually achieved antobody production by the 8weeks? In the mean time he could have affected his wife, etc..

I am not being mean, and I am not judging people on their sexual orientation, etc.
All too often people on here are thinking, :  "GEE, I AM NOT GAY, SO I DO NOT HAVE TO WORRY".

YES, statisitcally yes, but.....what about the "what if's?....would you want to be that what if?"

and besides, in my opinion, HIV is not a guessing game or a stats russian-roulette game at a Las Vegas casino.
If someone has had unprotected sex with someone whose status is unkown (so much like many of the people's last names people do not know when they hook up),....then yes.......you  had a risk.
AIDS does not discriminate.....gay, straight, etc.
All too often this attitude is causing the epidemic of HIV/AIDS perpetuate all the more.  As in AFRICA, where 41 million have AIDS.....hmm....from homosexual sex?  I THINK NOT!!

[dumbo]

"Well, if your not a homosexual, etc"

Where have I said these exact words Brian?  I have repeatedly said it is a disease primarily spread by receptive anal sex (happens to be the sex  males have, but so do male/female partners), needle sharing, and receptive vaginal (although much more difficult)

And again, I do not include Africa as I hav said time and time again the circumstances are completely different than NA / EU.  And alot of Africas problems come from anal sex and needle sharing, genital piercings, high untreated STD rates, poor health which makes them susceptible to more diseases....etc.  Even in Africa though, infections are now on the decline due to prevention /education efforts.

[Teak]

Even in Africa infections are on teh decline due to prevention and education efforts.

In your dreams. Post where you got that information.

[dumbo]

up yours.  You post your links before I will post anymore to make you happy.

[Teak]

Let him believe his BS and he'll be posting in the "Living With" forum soon enough.

[Teak]

I knew you wouldn't because that was a lie.

[dumbo]

Tell you what hotshot.   You post your link that regularjoey has asked for more than once now and I will post mine even though I have done this many many times before and when I do you disappear.

Show some "courage" brian claims you have and post you links.

[Teak]

If he wants it he can google it. I've never disappeared except for two weeks ago and everyone knew where I was. Courage you don't know the meaning. Begone little boy before someone drops the house on your head.

[Brian123]

Teak has every right in his own beliefs to say to the people on the forum "SCREW OFF" I dont care about assessing your risk,...I already have HIV.  If that were true, he would nto be here.

Why are you so persistent on setting Teak as being wrong?
Are you so insecure about your own sexuality or sexual risk in the past that you somehow HAVE to project your fear of HIV/AIDS on gay men?

I JUST DO NOT GET IT?

Anyways, tired of foolish message sending.

Good Luck.

[dumbo]

You can email me here if you like

***@****

thanks

[dumbo]

Well that didnt work obviously.

medhelpgroup a t hotmail dot com

[Worried_Mom2]

LOL
I needed that laugh today!

I will email soon!  I actually check back and forth here at work...somedays are slower than usual. (Today I have a good bit to do)
Then of course when I'm home, the lil' ones do not dare allow me to have even a minute on the computer LOL

[Worried_Mom2]

I JUST realized there was all these other post before the last one (Dumbo's & before my own), with you all arguing back and forth!  So I'm going to take the time to say this...

I didn't start this threat to cause all these negative debates.  I sincerely needed an understanding of my personal situation and thought to reach out to others.

Teak, your first post to me was "This has nothing to do with HIV"...(something like that).  And I sat here, staring at that one sentence, wondering what you meant, but then after a while, I started questioning myself about it.  Did my situation have to do with HIV or was I using the HIV as an excuse to eliminate a situation that I didn't want to deal with anyway.

I'm not sure whether that's what you were getting at or not, but that's where it lead my thoughts and I think maybe that is indeed the case.

At the moment that I considered that, I actually held an untold respect for you just for making me open my own eyes.

But then you continued to post and it was so full of anger and disrespect and that offended me.

At the time, I hadn't read the other boards, I hadn't seen some of what the other people here were saying and the stupidity they post, I didn't even realize that you had AIDS, personally.  All I knew is you judged me for trying to understand a situation and I couldn't understand that.

Now, I've read some of the other post, and even I just feel like screaming at some of the people, because it feels like they are making a mockery of the situation.  I read your profile and some other things to understand you.
I see that you teach on HIV/AIDS and for that I admire you.  It confused me though to see that you actually teach, so you do use your situation to help others, yet here I felt like you were only out to bash me.

I just think maybe we both jumped a little too fast.  Maybe you judged me thinking I was somehow attempting to make a joke of a serious situation (I was not), if you actually knew me, you'd know I'm one of the most openminded people you could ever cross and maybe I judged you too harshly before understanding your side.

So, from me to you, I apologize.  I hope we both can 'learn a lesson' from this.

I didn't come here to judge you or anyone else that may have HIV. Every family, every individual deals with something in their life.  I would never judge you for that!!  

In refernece to all these "gay issues"....My life "hero" and best friend ever is a gay male.  I hold the upmost respect and admiration for him, so don't think for a moment I would judge anyone for their sexual orientation.



Brian, I hope this clarifies my statement, that you replied to as well (in reference to Teak).


And Dumbo, Thank you for your continued support and understanding!  It really does mean alot!

[Brian123]

I am not angry at anyone.
And I am glad that the post was made clear.
Let's make a decision to end this thread.


B.

[sparkley]

well put

[sparkley]

too chaotic on here