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Beta Blockers
Six weeks ago I had oral surgery for an abscessed tooth and shortly thereafter had angina for about a week. It has subsided completely at present. At the time of the angina bouts I saw my Dr who did a nuclear stress test. It showed some ischemia in the lower regions of the heart so he sent me to a cardioligist who has prescribed me atenalol while I wait for an ultra fast CT scan. My BP was 128/88 or what they called the 'high side of normal'. I am cautious about using drugs if there are alternatives. I am reading a lot of complaints from people with side effects, tiredness, depression, nightmares, etc on this drug. Are these people the 1-5% the drug company claim or is the problem more widespread? At the same time, I have devoured mountains of material on CHD and find an alarming difference of opinions between researchers and even between cardioligists themselves about whether beta blockers are a good step. 90% of research says beta blockers do nothing to prevent 1st heart attacks in people with angina. 10% of the research says they do prevent 1st heart attacks. Numerous cardiologists say they are lifesavers, while others say avoid them, or that there are more effective classes of drugs.
The research does favor beta blockers for those who have had a heart attack and want to avoid a second one, but I have only had a brief spell of angina and am not getting them now so would rather work on the Ornish, Esselstyn plant based reversal plans drug free if I can. Is this wise or should I use the atenalol?
Thoughts?
The research does favor beta blockers for those who have had a heart attack and want to avoid a second one, but I have only had a brief spell of angina and am not getting them now so would rather work on the Ornish, Esselstyn plant based reversal plans drug free if I can. Is this wise or should I use the atenalol?
Thoughts?
I take atenolol 100mg daily in divided doses since 1999, I also take cozaar 25mg twice daily and HCTZ 12.5mg( for hypertension control) daily, plus 2 81mg aspirin. I have no known coronary disease, I have had all tests( all essentially normal) basically besides a heart cath mainly for bouts of tachycardia & PVCs. I have no tachycardia at all while on the atenolol and the PVCs are almost non existent. I take the apirin mainly to ward off the inflammation of a connective tissue disease I have. Just want add that without the beta blocker atenolol my life would be miserable with tachy & PVCs. Research as far I know have shown that beta blockers are actually under prescribed to heart patients and if prescribed could reduce the overall mortality rate.
I did have a few crazy dreams too but nothing that severly disrupted my sleep. As a matter of fact, I'm not sure when I've slept as good as I have been. Atenolol has been a lifesaver for me as well. It has not CURED the problem, but it is 98% better. I got my life back.
I can tell you my first month or so on beta blockers was tough with all the fatigue and brain fog and nightmares, but now I am much better and just have occaisona forgetfulness and bizarre and vivd dreams a couple of times a month.
Hi Al Dente!
Awesome reply. Very much appreciated.
No matter how thin you slice it - there's always two sides isn't there?
I did not know Ornish had modified his regimen to include fish and chicken. Any idea how I can get an up to date version of the diet? Would one of the hospitals doing the Medicare trials have the latest version?
Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and experience.
Awesome reply. Very much appreciated.
No matter how thin you slice it - there's always two sides isn't there?
I did not know Ornish had modified his regimen to include fish and chicken. Any idea how I can get an up to date version of the diet? Would one of the hospitals doing the Medicare trials have the latest version?
Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and experience.
Hi Put-it-in-reverse!,
I was "by the book" strict in my adherance to the Ornish diet. I was on a hospital sponsored & monitored program with Ornish trained people. During the period of the Ornish diet, I had 3 heart catheterizations. I as well had 2 thallium stresses, where 1 vessel CAD was visualized (3 vessel CAD visualized on cath). I did achieve rather decent METS scores.
Some of the plaques decreased, while some increased. My cardiologists do not agree that heart disease will disappear (I see CCF & other high ranked tertiary care center invasive and preventative cardios). There are other critical factors regarding lipids such as Lp(a)/VLDL. Heavy, sticky plaque is a huge concern, and so far diet factors are not having a large influence on these issues. The target is to overall lower the lipid profile--however, you can have a good profile, but bad ratio...your boat is taking on water in the bow instead of the stern.
I do not have a typical person's lipid disposition--I have a strong genetic link, Type II Familial Hyperlipidemia. I am insulin resistant--no doubt the heavy carbohydrate load of the Ornish Diet contributed to a rise in my glucose levels. Diets that are very high carb do not take in effect what insulin resistance/diabetes will do to the overall cardiovascular system, especially with patients that suffer from cardiac small vessel disease & endothelial dysfunction. I was not eating refined products.
With the class (several people), most were diabetic and had significant issues controlling their blood sugars on this diet. Another large portion had similar effects with their lipids. My doctors found it was of concern to continue in a heavily carb biased program. Eating wheat bread, peas, lettuce, & soy among other stuff isn't in my mind practical--a balanced diet is.
Ornish himself has modified the diet from all vegan to add fish, lean chicken, & even lean beef if absolutely necessary (this was on Fit TV). I became very weak on the diet, lost muscle mass, and saw some other issues pop up including creatinine clearance. My preventative cardiologist removed me from the program from my labs and placed me on a cardio/diabetic diet (to what I was practicing before).
My case is rather extreme. For some people, it may work and I wish those that can do it best wishes. I do not feel in the long run rediculously strict diets work. A balanced diet of veggies, fish, chicken, beef, whole wheats, grains is advantageous along with statins.
The benefits of statins eclipse as you say a draconian diet, IMO. Type I Familial Hyperlipidemia patients are lucky to live into their late teens. I'm fortunate not have as aggressive case as that, nontheless I do have CAD dxed in my late 20s. A dilligent physician in my teens got me on Lipitor at 18 and I'm still alive because of it.
My case again is rather atypical. I think one can use some principles of the Ornish diet, but eat fish, chicken, & lean beef. The carb overload will cause issues moreso IMO than the cholesterol in the portion controlled amounts of animal based foods.
Take care,
Al.
I was "by the book" strict in my adherance to the Ornish diet. I was on a hospital sponsored & monitored program with Ornish trained people. During the period of the Ornish diet, I had 3 heart catheterizations. I as well had 2 thallium stresses, where 1 vessel CAD was visualized (3 vessel CAD visualized on cath). I did achieve rather decent METS scores.
Some of the plaques decreased, while some increased. My cardiologists do not agree that heart disease will disappear (I see CCF & other high ranked tertiary care center invasive and preventative cardios). There are other critical factors regarding lipids such as Lp(a)/VLDL. Heavy, sticky plaque is a huge concern, and so far diet factors are not having a large influence on these issues. The target is to overall lower the lipid profile--however, you can have a good profile, but bad ratio...your boat is taking on water in the bow instead of the stern.
I do not have a typical person's lipid disposition--I have a strong genetic link, Type II Familial Hyperlipidemia. I am insulin resistant--no doubt the heavy carbohydrate load of the Ornish Diet contributed to a rise in my glucose levels. Diets that are very high carb do not take in effect what insulin resistance/diabetes will do to the overall cardiovascular system, especially with patients that suffer from cardiac small vessel disease & endothelial dysfunction. I was not eating refined products.
With the class (several people), most were diabetic and had significant issues controlling their blood sugars on this diet. Another large portion had similar effects with their lipids. My doctors found it was of concern to continue in a heavily carb biased program. Eating wheat bread, peas, lettuce, & soy among other stuff isn't in my mind practical--a balanced diet is.
Ornish himself has modified the diet from all vegan to add fish, lean chicken, & even lean beef if absolutely necessary (this was on Fit TV). I became very weak on the diet, lost muscle mass, and saw some other issues pop up including creatinine clearance. My preventative cardiologist removed me from the program from my labs and placed me on a cardio/diabetic diet (to what I was practicing before).
My case is rather extreme. For some people, it may work and I wish those that can do it best wishes. I do not feel in the long run rediculously strict diets work. A balanced diet of veggies, fish, chicken, beef, whole wheats, grains is advantageous along with statins.
The benefits of statins eclipse as you say a draconian diet, IMO. Type I Familial Hyperlipidemia patients are lucky to live into their late teens. I'm fortunate not have as aggressive case as that, nontheless I do have CAD dxed in my late 20s. A dilligent physician in my teens got me on Lipitor at 18 and I'm still alive because of it.
My case again is rather atypical. I think one can use some principles of the Ornish diet, but eat fish, chicken, & lean beef. The carb overload will cause issues moreso IMO than the cholesterol in the portion controlled amounts of animal based foods.
Take care,
Al.
Thanks to all... Al Dente, I am interested in your experience with the Ornish diet... particlulary since his results have been replicated and exceeded by Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn of the Cleveland Clinic (Hosts of this forum) and documted in his 2007 book Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease. http://www.heartattackproof.com/
His diet is essentially the same as Ornish's, except more draconian if that is possible. He even prohibits non-fat milk, eggwhites and full fat soy milk. Like Ornish, his results have been published in the American Journal of Cardiology so he is not without peer review or high credibility.
That said, we are all different, so I am wondering... when you were on the Ornish diet, were you 100% compliant? Did you go 100% plant based, or did you use the "little bit can't hurt" version?
By the way, Esseltyn warns about lipids increasing if in compensating for the fat deprivation you allow yourself to use simple carbs rather than 100% complex carbs. The simple carbs trigger insulin which in turn triggers cholestrol production. While Ornish warns about this, it does not get hammered home the way it does in Esselstyn's book.
In regards to your comment, "once you have it, you have it" I respectfully suggest you check out the PET scans in Esselstyn's book. You will see with your own eyes that they PROVE conclusively that heart disease can be reversed.
The only reason more people don't reverse is because the medical establishment is not compensated in that direction and frankly many people think they can bend the rules. I immediately adopted Ornish after the stress test and the angina completed abated in less than two weeks. I was out of breath a quater block after getting out of my car a month ago. This morning I did 30 minutes on the treadmill at 3.5mph/1% incline without a twinge. Does this sound like CAD progression or reversal?
Sorry to preach, but I am already seeing benefits without drugs or surgery and I'd hate this miracle to be written off by anyone who needs it. Further, no cardiologist who has knows the work disputes that it works, rather they say that no-one will follow it because its too radical.
Ornish counters, "Why is a plant based diet considered radical, and surgery considered conservative?"
His diet is essentially the same as Ornish's, except more draconian if that is possible. He even prohibits non-fat milk, eggwhites and full fat soy milk. Like Ornish, his results have been published in the American Journal of Cardiology so he is not without peer review or high credibility.
That said, we are all different, so I am wondering... when you were on the Ornish diet, were you 100% compliant? Did you go 100% plant based, or did you use the "little bit can't hurt" version?
By the way, Esseltyn warns about lipids increasing if in compensating for the fat deprivation you allow yourself to use simple carbs rather than 100% complex carbs. The simple carbs trigger insulin which in turn triggers cholestrol production. While Ornish warns about this, it does not get hammered home the way it does in Esselstyn's book.
In regards to your comment, "once you have it, you have it" I respectfully suggest you check out the PET scans in Esselstyn's book. You will see with your own eyes that they PROVE conclusively that heart disease can be reversed.
The only reason more people don't reverse is because the medical establishment is not compensated in that direction and frankly many people think they can bend the rules. I immediately adopted Ornish after the stress test and the angina completed abated in less than two weeks. I was out of breath a quater block after getting out of my car a month ago. This morning I did 30 minutes on the treadmill at 3.5mph/1% incline without a twinge. Does this sound like CAD progression or reversal?
Sorry to preach, but I am already seeing benefits without drugs or surgery and I'd hate this miracle to be written off by anyone who needs it. Further, no cardiologist who has knows the work disputes that it works, rather they say that no-one will follow it because its too radical.
Ornish counters, "Why is a plant based diet considered radical, and surgery considered conservative?"
There is some discussion regarding betas, but they are considerd one of the first meds of choice for heart issues. I've been on a beta for about 3 years now, and it does have some drawbacks, but it is a lifesaver.
I would not take a drug just based on conflicts of opinions in literature. See a good cardiologist. There are several types of betas, and your doc can help pick the right one. ACEs or ARBs can in some instances be more helpful.
I would not put stock in the Ornish diet (I was on it for several months and my lipids got worse, along with my angina). Once you have heart disease, you have it.
I would not take a drug just based on conflicts of opinions in literature. See a good cardiologist. There are several types of betas, and your doc can help pick the right one. ACEs or ARBs can in some instances be more helpful.
I would not put stock in the Ornish diet (I was on it for several months and my lipids got worse, along with my angina). Once you have heart disease, you have it.
My father has CAD and experienced severe ischemic pain that brought him to the ER. While he did not suffer a heart attack, he did require a triple bypass. He was put on aspirin, Atenolol, Plavix and a powerful statin. His doctor believes that Atenolol is a lifesaver. Of course, every person is different. If it were me having ischemic chest pain - I'd take the Atenolol. But that's my personal choice.
I am on Atenolol- for about the first four days I was exhausted... I would take it and an hour later, be ready for bed, even if it was 4PM. But then it stopped. I just had to get used to them. I have had no other side effects. I have PVC's and this medicine has almost completely stopped them OR made them much less noticable to me. I LOVE Atenolol.
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