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EP test experience
I am 46 and was diagnosed with heart disease. My" Widow Maker" artery was apparently 99 % blocked, a stint was put in. My EF at the time was 20%. Then it jumped to 30% after the stint, now I am at 35% after the last echo gram was conducted. I'm holding at 35% for 4 mos, exorcising in the cardio rehab program seemed to help. My regular heart dr suggested an evaluation with a colleague who specializes in the electrical functions of the heart to evaluate me for a ICD implant. At the first appointment he said he didn't see why I was sent, that I still had a year to improve my EF and there seemed to be no reason showing that it couldn't improve over time. But, the one thing he could do was to conduct an EP test to see if arrhythmia could be induced easily. If so, even though the guideline was 30% EF. I might be a candidate for an ICD. This was actually good news that I still had room to improve EF f and hopefully regenerate some damaged tissue in time. Nevertheless we opted for the test to satisfy that I had no rhythm problems to speak of. During my exercise the nurses stated that i had one of the prettiest heart rhythms they'd seen. This was something that stuck with me and gave me hope I would do well on EP test.
When we arrived at the hospital, got into my room, a nurse came with all the paper work. When she got to the ICD implant permision I paused saying I'd like to talk with the Dr first. He came and stated he was ready to put the ICD in. We were shocked and immediately asked about the test. He said there was going to be a 90% chance i would go into a vib or v vib anyway and planned to put the implant in without testing. We stated we wanted to test first. He was immediately disturbed and began badgering us about what we wanted to do. Of course we were trying to trust him and my wife stated if I needed the implant she would rather me have it, I said ok at the moment but had reservations. When he left the room we discussed it and decided I would rather have the results first and could decide on an implant after speaking with my regular heart dr and possibly get a second opinion. This was the course I was comfortable with. The nurse came back, we explained I changed my mind and wasn't going to allow the implant during the procedure and wanted to wait till after the results. Minutes later the dr came in angry and proceeded to inform us he was canceling everything because he was being told I was signing anyhing. The only part I didn't sign was the implant permission. My wife talked to him in the hallway and explained my emotional state and why I wanted to wait. She said he acted like he understood and agreed to move forward with the test.
I was taken to the Cath lab and prepped, then put to sleep. I was awakened by being shocked at a rate I cannot explain. My entire body was levitating off the table and I was screaming my lungs out from the pain of being electrocuted.They shut it down, I cursed out loud, demanded to know what just happened. No one was speaking to me except to say relax your legs. I couldn't put them down. Then I said is this what you do to people? No one responded for a few minutes, it was like they were in panic mode, until one male nurse leaned in and said they had just brought me back to life. he explained what the dr was looking for, he found, and that's why I had to be shocked back. Apologizing his self for the shocking, explaining he never experienced it his self but, from what he saw, it must have been terrible.Later he wheeled me back to the room and explained my copy of the printout which showed that my heart was recovering just fine 5 times before there was a v vib that didn't recover and that's when they shocked me. It was shown in the graph. He said if they hadn't they would be taking me to the morgue. The dr took a copy to my wife and with an attitude he said "here is your proof ask any Dr. and they will tell you he is at risk according to that study". Now, the male nurses pointed out that the rep from the St Jude company, who makes the ICD unit they planned for me, was there in the room. I asked if he had the unit and could I see it. It was as big as a cell phone. What we had researched before were units that were about as big as a silver dollar. I'm not quibbling over that exactly because, if I decide after further evaluation that I need one put in, I will certainly investigate which product I want. The thing is that I asked which product this particular Dr. used at the first appointment and his nurse explained he always uses St Jude..As I was reseaching St Jude ICD units, among other things which lead me here, I found that the DOJ investigated St Jude for providing kickbacks to practitioners who installed they're ICD and pacemaker products, some that didn't fit the guldelines and the DOJ study found that 22.5% out of millions were done so without meeting the guidelines. Coincidently these people suffered severe problems with these units, in short, wiring problems and random shockings . All this when St Jude was leading the market in sales over a 5 year period. To top it off, after some investigating by the DOJ, St Jude is settling to pay out 16 million in fines, and the latest reached over 33 million in fines, but this has not slowed St Jude's sales.Yesterday we felt something was fishy from the attitude our Dr took with us. I told my wife I was afraid this was about money and she agreed. Let me add that not once did this Dr pull up a chair and speak to me with patience and help me to make a decision that served my best interests. At one time he explained that this was a normal thing for him because he was one of only 5 in the state who did these implants needed to trust him. Coincidently he had planned 6 procedures that day. I have tried to be as smart as I can about my condition, I don't think I'm an idiot.So, i read here where someone was told that the doctors can actually make anyone go into V vib if they want to and that she shouldn't worry about it even though they shocked her back. That story is what has lead me to write tonight . We are fearful that this dr's temper was a factor in sending me into V vib to prove a point. He said later that shocking me back to life and the pain I experienced was normal. My first question is, did any of you who had this particular test done experience the same as the person above and myself. WAS THIS NORMAL FOR EP TESTING? My next question is, does anyone here,after hearing my story, feel that it is possible I messed up a sale for this dr by not signing off on the implant? Is it possible that what I'm seeing about St Jude and they're alleged kickbacks to doctors is applying here to my situation? After five times of inducing my heart into the arrhythmia and recovering each time, is it possible this guy just gave me an overkill to prove a point when, I never have had any signs of it before, and was showing great rhythm reads in my cardio rehab? Maybe I'm wrong for feeling this way and, looking all this up, but I'm finding some cases that are so similar it's beginning to validate my original suspicions. All input and advice is welcome here ya'll. I really need to connect with some people who know about these things and have experienced it, I just don't think it's morally right to send someone into v vib that far and shock them back if the first few were looking ok. And I certainly would have liked to have been informed it was possible for that to happen and could expect that shock. Lastly, does a 46 year old athletic man with rising EF numbers really need that safety net of an ICD implant? And can an ICD implant be beneficial in helping those numbers rise even more. My family, including my 2 year old baby girl and 5 year old son are trying to figure this out. I don't want to believe that I am a victim of a St Jude scandal, but fear that I am.
This discussion is related to went into v-fib in Ep study.
When we arrived at the hospital, got into my room, a nurse came with all the paper work. When she got to the ICD implant permision I paused saying I'd like to talk with the Dr first. He came and stated he was ready to put the ICD in. We were shocked and immediately asked about the test. He said there was going to be a 90% chance i would go into a vib or v vib anyway and planned to put the implant in without testing. We stated we wanted to test first. He was immediately disturbed and began badgering us about what we wanted to do. Of course we were trying to trust him and my wife stated if I needed the implant she would rather me have it, I said ok at the moment but had reservations. When he left the room we discussed it and decided I would rather have the results first and could decide on an implant after speaking with my regular heart dr and possibly get a second opinion. This was the course I was comfortable with. The nurse came back, we explained I changed my mind and wasn't going to allow the implant during the procedure and wanted to wait till after the results. Minutes later the dr came in angry and proceeded to inform us he was canceling everything because he was being told I was signing anyhing. The only part I didn't sign was the implant permission. My wife talked to him in the hallway and explained my emotional state and why I wanted to wait. She said he acted like he understood and agreed to move forward with the test.
I was taken to the Cath lab and prepped, then put to sleep. I was awakened by being shocked at a rate I cannot explain. My entire body was levitating off the table and I was screaming my lungs out from the pain of being electrocuted.They shut it down, I cursed out loud, demanded to know what just happened. No one was speaking to me except to say relax your legs. I couldn't put them down. Then I said is this what you do to people? No one responded for a few minutes, it was like they were in panic mode, until one male nurse leaned in and said they had just brought me back to life. he explained what the dr was looking for, he found, and that's why I had to be shocked back. Apologizing his self for the shocking, explaining he never experienced it his self but, from what he saw, it must have been terrible.Later he wheeled me back to the room and explained my copy of the printout which showed that my heart was recovering just fine 5 times before there was a v vib that didn't recover and that's when they shocked me. It was shown in the graph. He said if they hadn't they would be taking me to the morgue. The dr took a copy to my wife and with an attitude he said "here is your proof ask any Dr. and they will tell you he is at risk according to that study". Now, the male nurses pointed out that the rep from the St Jude company, who makes the ICD unit they planned for me, was there in the room. I asked if he had the unit and could I see it. It was as big as a cell phone. What we had researched before were units that were about as big as a silver dollar. I'm not quibbling over that exactly because, if I decide after further evaluation that I need one put in, I will certainly investigate which product I want. The thing is that I asked which product this particular Dr. used at the first appointment and his nurse explained he always uses St Jude..As I was reseaching St Jude ICD units, among other things which lead me here, I found that the DOJ investigated St Jude for providing kickbacks to practitioners who installed they're ICD and pacemaker products, some that didn't fit the guldelines and the DOJ study found that 22.5% out of millions were done so without meeting the guidelines. Coincidently these people suffered severe problems with these units, in short, wiring problems and random shockings . All this when St Jude was leading the market in sales over a 5 year period. To top it off, after some investigating by the DOJ, St Jude is settling to pay out 16 million in fines, and the latest reached over 33 million in fines, but this has not slowed St Jude's sales.Yesterday we felt something was fishy from the attitude our Dr took with us. I told my wife I was afraid this was about money and she agreed. Let me add that not once did this Dr pull up a chair and speak to me with patience and help me to make a decision that served my best interests. At one time he explained that this was a normal thing for him because he was one of only 5 in the state who did these implants needed to trust him. Coincidently he had planned 6 procedures that day. I have tried to be as smart as I can about my condition, I don't think I'm an idiot.So, i read here where someone was told that the doctors can actually make anyone go into V vib if they want to and that she shouldn't worry about it even though they shocked her back. That story is what has lead me to write tonight . We are fearful that this dr's temper was a factor in sending me into V vib to prove a point. He said later that shocking me back to life and the pain I experienced was normal. My first question is, did any of you who had this particular test done experience the same as the person above and myself. WAS THIS NORMAL FOR EP TESTING? My next question is, does anyone here,after hearing my story, feel that it is possible I messed up a sale for this dr by not signing off on the implant? Is it possible that what I'm seeing about St Jude and they're alleged kickbacks to doctors is applying here to my situation? After five times of inducing my heart into the arrhythmia and recovering each time, is it possible this guy just gave me an overkill to prove a point when, I never have had any signs of it before, and was showing great rhythm reads in my cardio rehab? Maybe I'm wrong for feeling this way and, looking all this up, but I'm finding some cases that are so similar it's beginning to validate my original suspicions. All input and advice is welcome here ya'll. I really need to connect with some people who know about these things and have experienced it, I just don't think it's morally right to send someone into v vib that far and shock them back if the first few were looking ok. And I certainly would have liked to have been informed it was possible for that to happen and could expect that shock. Lastly, does a 46 year old athletic man with rising EF numbers really need that safety net of an ICD implant? And can an ICD implant be beneficial in helping those numbers rise even more. My family, including my 2 year old baby girl and 5 year old son are trying to figure this out. I don't want to believe that I am a victim of a St Jude scandal, but fear that I am.
This discussion is related to went into v-fib in Ep study.
I have been to 4 EP dr's and I am running on my 2nd ICD made by Medtronics and your story touched me because I can see where you are coming from. I saw 3 cardiologist before I settled down with the one I have now because I wanted a doctor that would take good care of me and is looking out for my best interest and not some company's. My doctor gave me a choice of manufacturers. I healed nicely after my replacement ICD was implanted, my first ICD lasted for 6 years and I depend on my ICD for pacing as well as protection. I have only been shocked 3 times since 2004. I have heart failure and my new ICD is not only wireless but it informed my doctor that I was dangerously retaining fluid! I thought this was the coolest thing since I had been doing it by weighing my self 2x a day for the last 4 years lol. I hope I have been of some help and feel free to ask me any questions... I have alot of heart history and I love to give my opinion on almost everything lol :)
You're welcome =) I've had so much great help here it's the least I can do to help others.
btw, if you're having PTSD issues you should talk to someone if you haven't or try meds if you need. I had pretty much the same thing - my heart stopped 3 times, and I woke up during yelling at them to stop the surgery. I started having nightmares a few days after surgery and then panic attacks which turned into full blown depression.
I tried Lexapro but it didn't much for me so I've just coped on my own until now. Being younger and chronically ill plus worsening health problems left me depressed - which I'm seeing a psych dr about Monday.
btw, if you're having PTSD issues you should talk to someone if you haven't or try meds if you need. I had pretty much the same thing - my heart stopped 3 times, and I woke up during yelling at them to stop the surgery. I started having nightmares a few days after surgery and then panic attacks which turned into full blown depression.
I tried Lexapro but it didn't much for me so I've just coped on my own until now. Being younger and chronically ill plus worsening health problems left me depressed - which I'm seeing a psych dr about Monday.
That is good stuff, especially the noticeable part after swelling. You have been a God send here Lisa. Thank you. I couldn't have gotten my mind around it without your help.
Does your profile name reflect your having heart flutter? My Cardiologist said yesterday that is my problem and the reason my heart stopped during EP study and I had to be revived. I made a journal entry concerning that meeting. To long to repeat all here but your choice of handle I see up there interests me in connecting with you. Apparently my left side was so scarred that I'm in danger of this flutter happening and it will be a matter of seconds before stopping and I would be gone. I'm seeing another EP on Wednesday to discuss implant and moving forward with this thing i suppose. Thanks for the comment. I have some PTSD from the shock and more is revealed in my journal entry, but when I have time I will look through your profile for some history on you which I'm sure you have posted. I sent a friend request.
My implant was relatively quick & easy, no complications other than the leads being placed a bit high due to my dr's partner having to do the implant because he had to go out of town and I had to have it done asap.
The unit itself is very small and after the swelling went down I barely notice it's there. The best thing to do is ask others what they have and the pros/cons from different forums. I have the wireless unit and my home unit monitors me daily and sends in reports daily to my dr and I only go in once every 6 months unless they get a report of something going on or I'm having problems.
I use the quick convert quite often due to high VT runs and have about 8 years left on my battery but I'm not pacemaker dependent. I did go through quite alot of "tweaks" getting my settings right but it was because I kept fainting with my hr's so they would up my rates.
good luck finding a great skilled dr who knows what they're doing and has enough experience to do it correctly and then you'll be set
The unit itself is very small and after the swelling went down I barely notice it's there. The best thing to do is ask others what they have and the pros/cons from different forums. I have the wireless unit and my home unit monitors me daily and sends in reports daily to my dr and I only go in once every 6 months unless they get a report of something going on or I'm having problems.
I use the quick convert quite often due to high VT runs and have about 8 years left on my battery but I'm not pacemaker dependent. I did go through quite alot of "tweaks" getting my settings right but it was because I kept fainting with my hr's so they would up my rates.
good luck finding a great skilled dr who knows what they're doing and has enough experience to do it correctly and then you'll be set
Praise the LORD you are Saved, now put it in his hands get a great dr and you will be fine
Right on. I see my regular cardiologist tomorrow. Yes I will be getting my transcripts for sure. I'm pretty anxious to see how much my cardiologists followed up with the dr. who did the EP. I can only conclude that I have scar tissue from the left muscle being damaged form the lack of blood flow during the blockage. After researching everything I can, that is the only due cause I have for an ICD. I hear you about the dangers. I've read a multitude of risks and the removal of the leads is nearly impossible according to my findings. Not something I plan to jump into based on one opinion and knowing that my rhythms have been good so far. I did however, check out some product lines out there and I think I like the Teligen 100 by Boston Scientific which you mention is what you have. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, by comparison, from what I saw, it is the thinnest and has better longevity estimates with quick ATP conversion in the VF zones. But of course those findings are from the company site. I suppose you would know better than anyone about that model huh? Did your set up go well or did it take several corrections before they got it right. One thing I'm seeing are stories about it taking some serious efforts by the doctors to get units set right for individual cases. There hasn't been much out there for me to research concerning people who have a St Jude, Medtronic or even the Biotronic. If I have to go there Boston Scientific appears to be the most advanced and obviously I would want the thinnest available. Anything you have to offer about your model would be greatly appreciated Lisa. Thanks so much for your help, God Bless.
I would def run as fast as you can from dr's like that...while the procedure to implant the ICD is relatively easy there are a multitude of things that could go wrong from lead placement to shock storms that some have.
Not trying to offend anyone or anything; I question a doctor who doesn't follow protocol and goes on what if's only...as you said - it raises so many red flags in my mind as a patient and I would question each and everything a doctor tells me to make the right decision. Once you have a Pacemaker or ICD implanted, it's a major surgery that can be dangerous for them to remove if they come back later and say Oh I'm sorry we were wrong and you didn't really need it.
One way to find out about the VFib is to get your surgery transcripts and notes, they will show how much it took to put you into VFib, then I would take my files to another EP and ask his/her opinion and not tell him what the other doctor said to get a truly unbiased professional opinion.
It's very important to find out; because if you do have a propensity for VT/VFib, you do need that ICD asap.
Here's some info a MH dr gave me on VT/VFib http://www.medhelp.org/user_journals/show/284968/Ventricular-Tachycardia-VT---Vtach?personal_page_id=861727 about half way down it touches on Structural Heart Disease.
Not trying to offend anyone or anything; I question a doctor who doesn't follow protocol and goes on what if's only...as you said - it raises so many red flags in my mind as a patient and I would question each and everything a doctor tells me to make the right decision. Once you have a Pacemaker or ICD implanted, it's a major surgery that can be dangerous for them to remove if they come back later and say Oh I'm sorry we were wrong and you didn't really need it.
One way to find out about the VFib is to get your surgery transcripts and notes, they will show how much it took to put you into VFib, then I would take my files to another EP and ask his/her opinion and not tell him what the other doctor said to get a truly unbiased professional opinion.
It's very important to find out; because if you do have a propensity for VT/VFib, you do need that ICD asap.
Here's some info a MH dr gave me on VT/VFib http://www.medhelp.org/user_journals/show/284968/Ventricular-Tachycardia-VT---Vtach?personal_page_id=861727 about half way down it touches on Structural Heart Disease.
Oh yeah, no an ICD can't improve your EF so I was informed. When I was originally contacted by a nurse she was mentioning that it could. Later I was told that she was mistaken unless she was talking about an ICD/Pacer. But the dr I was seeing wasn't really suggesting that for me.
Thanks, I will check out the support group site and look for some info, also will try and find a person around here who has one to see what they have to say. You didn't see me say I had an arrhythmia problem because there has never been any signs or symptoms pointing to me having those types of electrical problems. From what I can gather, my regular cardiologist wanted me to be evaluated by an electro physiologist for any possible, let's say, future risks of arrhythmia. I take it that his concern was due to my last echo showing that I still have a depressed EF of 35%. It really felt like more of a formality when I was contacted to make an appointment. I mentioned many times here in my comments back and forth that my heart rhythms were looking very good in my rehab according to the nurses over seeing the ekg's of all the patients who were exercising in the classes.That's why it worries me about this guy, and, why he tried numerous times to induce me, with my heart recovering, until he apparently found a troublesome spot, or he simply induced me with enough stimulation to send me into V fib and is calling it a problem. As I said before, on the day of the procedure he was prepared to put a unit in and was insinuating that the test need not be done. Thats where my wife and I got really confused. I've never had palpitations, skips, or whatever those kind of problems are called. I just had a plumbing problem with the "widow maker" artery and head 1 stent installed. While the doctor, who put that 1 in, was doing the arterial gram, he looked around for other areas of blockage and found none. All we really want to know for certain, is, did this doctor purposefully put me into V fib because he was irritated that I wouldn't sign off on the ICD, or did he truly find an area that will cause me problems later and possibly trigger an event. All the things that I am hearing here is very useful in my quest to know about V fib being induced. It's truly giving me some advantage for my next step and is informing me for when I see my regular cardiologist next time. I will certainly know the questions to ask, and will have a much better understanding of how to read his answers and the answers of the next electro physiologist I see. Thank you, truly, for connecting with me and telling me the things your doctor has revealed. It is very interesting that, here in the heart rhythms forum, most of you had symptoms before hand for arrhythmia and other electrical problems that warranted an EP study. I just don't think I did, and we cannot deny how things transpired with this particular doctor having an anger issue on the day of my study. So, we will press on, and put some pressure on that situation to find out exactly how many times he induced and I recovered, and exactly how much stimulation did he have to give me to put me into V fib. Right now, it just feels like he was pissed off and wanted to prove his point, make the sale, and, make the implantation happen regardless of how my heart did during the study. We won't stop until we get down to the bottom of that for sure. Then, if i choose to have one, I will have researched the latest technology and brands available to me. I think we should have a right to choose which product we would rather have inside of our bodies and the St Jude device doesn't appear to be something I'm interested in at the moment. Especially after I've seen how big it is.
If you read in the heart rhythm forum you'll many of us who have EP Studies done. The majority of the time they may have an inkling of what's going on before hand because of testing done like holter monitors, ekg's, echo's etc. The one thing I don't see is you say you have an arrhythmia problem, but there's alot of info here so I may have missed it. Have you had all those tests done?
I'm still learning after 2 years; but I would still question why you need an ICD without some type of arrhythmia? I wasn't aware an ICD can help your EF? If anything I would think a pacemaker would because it would regulate your heart; whereas an ICD is a preventative against sudden cardiac arrest or a dangerous arrhythmia. Maybe someone can explain because I may be missing what's going on - sometimes I miss things or I don't understand...
My cardiologist told me that Vfib inside the lab is very common, the whole team freaks out and then they save the person and go on to the next one BUT he also said almost anyone is inducible into Vfib with the right provocation at least once. An EPS is not supposed to about that; it's about finding the extra pathways and fixing the electrical part of the heart. I have read of other doctors who don't go by standard protocol and will do an EPS and/or ablation when others won't and it really makes me wonder why...it is big business and they do make lots of money on it...
I think there are a few of us in the HR forum that had EPS' and I'm pretty sure a few of us were induced into Vfib at least once but I can't recall anyone else but me who had an ICD implanted. I had VT problems before and my runs were malignant polymorphic ventricular tachycardia.
There are some good doctors out there =) It took me almost 2 years and 5 cardiologists and 2 EP's to find one; but they do exist. Start a list of questions, go through your list of them with each doctor you see and keep looking until you find one. Another thing is to find others in your state or near you who have had an ICD implanted and ask their opinions on doctors.
If you can travel, I would go to a large clinic like Cleveland, Mayo Clinic or Vanderbilt. Also, if you go to the ICD support group forum (do a google search) I can't link it or it will be taken out...the forum specifically deals with ICD's and you'd be amazed at some of the info you can find there.
I'm still learning after 2 years; but I would still question why you need an ICD without some type of arrhythmia? I wasn't aware an ICD can help your EF? If anything I would think a pacemaker would because it would regulate your heart; whereas an ICD is a preventative against sudden cardiac arrest or a dangerous arrhythmia. Maybe someone can explain because I may be missing what's going on - sometimes I miss things or I don't understand...
My cardiologist told me that Vfib inside the lab is very common, the whole team freaks out and then they save the person and go on to the next one BUT he also said almost anyone is inducible into Vfib with the right provocation at least once. An EPS is not supposed to about that; it's about finding the extra pathways and fixing the electrical part of the heart. I have read of other doctors who don't go by standard protocol and will do an EPS and/or ablation when others won't and it really makes me wonder why...it is big business and they do make lots of money on it...
I think there are a few of us in the HR forum that had EPS' and I'm pretty sure a few of us were induced into Vfib at least once but I can't recall anyone else but me who had an ICD implanted. I had VT problems before and my runs were malignant polymorphic ventricular tachycardia.
There are some good doctors out there =) It took me almost 2 years and 5 cardiologists and 2 EP's to find one; but they do exist. Start a list of questions, go through your list of them with each doctor you see and keep looking until you find one. Another thing is to find others in your state or near you who have had an ICD implanted and ask their opinions on doctors.
If you can travel, I would go to a large clinic like Cleveland, Mayo Clinic or Vanderbilt. Also, if you go to the ICD support group forum (do a google search) I can't link it or it will be taken out...the forum specifically deals with ICD's and you'd be amazed at some of the info you can find there.
Yeah I have my regular cardiologist card on me and always refer to him in any case. The case of St Jude's kickbacks were easy to locate. I was simply googleing the product and the DOJ case popped up right away, and, it showed up on several sights and case studies. I've saved the links and copied the references to they're investigation and fines paid out to the govt as a result of the govt findings. I don't think I would see so much on that if there weren't some truth, And with their leading the market is sales it's certainly believable they would have enough money to pay fines. Plus the small electronic devices they sell are $25.000 a piece. Not so hard to think they could afford a few thousand for kickbacks on such an expensive cell phone sized device. One thing I thought of today is that during my original eval appointment with him he didn't show me a device. Would have been nice to have had one available for him to show me, but as I found out when I was introduced to the sales rep , who coincidently was present at my testing, after I was shocked back to life, he was the one who kept a tight reign on the device. I suppose the device is so expensive that the company doesn't provide demos for doctors to show patients when being evaluated. Or perhaps they know if a patient was shown this thing before they had the study done or procedure done they might just say "hell no, our not putting that thing in me". Fact is, had I initialed that line to permit implantation, I never would have even laid eyes on that device before they put it under my skin.
No I didn't allow the device to be implanted on the day of the EP study. Yes our cases are somewhat different but what your saying is still helpful. Your case is helpful as well. I don't have a device but I'm certainly being intimidated to have one. Here's something that occurred to me today. When discussing the evaluation appointment with friends and my wife they asked me what I thought he would say and my response was "I think he will want to put a defibrillator in, that's what he does, I haven't seen a specialists yet that didn't suggest to let them do what they do to me" That includes the 2 lower back surgeries i had done and the neck surgery I was about to have when the abnormal EKG was found before I went into surgery which, luckily uncovered my blockage by the end of the day. In both cases of my spinal evaluations with specialists the term used by both of those doctors was, and I quote" If you were my own brother or my own father, I would suggest the procedure" in those cases it was to eliminate the pain I was in from the herniated discs in my lower back and my neck. The first back surgery didn't work so I went back to the same guy to do it again and I still have a herniated disc in my lower back and the neck surgery never happened due to the finding a problem with my heart. I find it ironic that I heard 2 different specialist use the same line on me. Do they teach that line in med school? I'm not off track with my point because here's what I fear concerning my so called need for an ICD device, that is, according to the specialist who did my study and got irritated when I didn't sign off on it. My point? He is a specialist who implants devices for a living, it's what he does, he said so himself when he was explaining how common it is for him to be doing so with 6 scheduled on his plans for that day alone. Why wouldn't this guy want me to follow suit and go along. But, how could he convince me? Well the only thing I can come up with is to purposefully put me into V fib and then give me the shock of a lifetime to "wake me up" to his expertise and chance to make me another notch in his proverbial surgical belt. I don't want one, don't feel like I need one based on some of the points I made earlier like how my heart rhythms looked during my cardio rehab exercise classes.
I'm on the cusp of what your complaining about and, it scares me to think I'm right about what might have transpired during that study, and, it equally scares me to think I'm wrong and he is right. I'll see another doctor, but, I don't think if I see another specialist I'll get a different result, unless, I find a truly honest guy who won't be so ambitious to simply want me to let him do an implant and collect from my insurance and possibly from the product company. I think what I need more than anything is to uncover more about St Jude devices, why this doctor uses them and what his position is on the quality of this product he chooses to use. I really get sick of the attitudes I get from the cardiac community when I ask something like "hey, by the way, what brand of ICD device does your boss use anyway, I'd just like to know what might be going in me" I asked one of his nurses that question after I saw him the first time and she told me, "St Jude" but it was like, why the hell do you care sir, your a heart patient and these doctors I work for are the best and whatever they do will save your life so don't ask stupid questions like what brand of device does he use. No, she didn't say all that, but, I got the meaning of her response and that's sort of the attitude I get from a lot of them around that community.
Maybe I do need one, maybe I don't. maybe I will seek some council to investigate for me if I was purposefully put into V fib during that study. I still haven't heard anyone here say that the purpose of an EP study is to keep on inducing until they kill you for a second and difib you back. I haven't gotten other experiences telling me "yeah they did the same to me" " It's pretty normal during this type of study", In fact, I get things like what your saying, "you were easily induced". Just out of curiosity, what does that mean exactly? Does that mean they tried like once or twice and then diagnosed without pushing you over the edge far enough to have to defibrillate you back to life. I really have no idea how many times he actually tried to induce before he sent me over the edge but according to the male nurse, who was explaining the xerox copy they gave me, there were at least 5 attempts on that paper for me and then, boom, lights out, difib me from the inside, and, lights back on. I have to know for certain if a doctor conducting this study can, in fact, put any heart, even a healthy one, into V fib if they so choose, to juice you enough. I think when I know the facts on that, I'll know the facts about my experience and I will be armed to make decisions then. That's all i'm asking really, is to know that.
The one thing I do know for certain is that I've accepted Christ as my personal savior, I prayed just before I walked into the hospital, and, for whatever reason, when it came to signing that simple little line to allow a device to go in that day, I didn't initial it! Something told me not to. Something didn't feel right about it and I followed my heart.Yep, my heart, the same one that is supposedly in such bad shape that I need a man made device to promise me life in case of an event. It amazes me that heart doctors who know everything there is to know about the heart, don't know a thing about the soul.
I'm on the cusp of what your complaining about and, it scares me to think I'm right about what might have transpired during that study, and, it equally scares me to think I'm wrong and he is right. I'll see another doctor, but, I don't think if I see another specialist I'll get a different result, unless, I find a truly honest guy who won't be so ambitious to simply want me to let him do an implant and collect from my insurance and possibly from the product company. I think what I need more than anything is to uncover more about St Jude devices, why this doctor uses them and what his position is on the quality of this product he chooses to use. I really get sick of the attitudes I get from the cardiac community when I ask something like "hey, by the way, what brand of ICD device does your boss use anyway, I'd just like to know what might be going in me" I asked one of his nurses that question after I saw him the first time and she told me, "St Jude" but it was like, why the hell do you care sir, your a heart patient and these doctors I work for are the best and whatever they do will save your life so don't ask stupid questions like what brand of device does he use. No, she didn't say all that, but, I got the meaning of her response and that's sort of the attitude I get from a lot of them around that community.
Maybe I do need one, maybe I don't. maybe I will seek some council to investigate for me if I was purposefully put into V fib during that study. I still haven't heard anyone here say that the purpose of an EP study is to keep on inducing until they kill you for a second and difib you back. I haven't gotten other experiences telling me "yeah they did the same to me" " It's pretty normal during this type of study", In fact, I get things like what your saying, "you were easily induced". Just out of curiosity, what does that mean exactly? Does that mean they tried like once or twice and then diagnosed without pushing you over the edge far enough to have to defibrillate you back to life. I really have no idea how many times he actually tried to induce before he sent me over the edge but according to the male nurse, who was explaining the xerox copy they gave me, there were at least 5 attempts on that paper for me and then, boom, lights out, difib me from the inside, and, lights back on. I have to know for certain if a doctor conducting this study can, in fact, put any heart, even a healthy one, into V fib if they so choose, to juice you enough. I think when I know the facts on that, I'll know the facts about my experience and I will be armed to make decisions then. That's all i'm asking really, is to know that.
The one thing I do know for certain is that I've accepted Christ as my personal savior, I prayed just before I walked into the hospital, and, for whatever reason, when it came to signing that simple little line to allow a device to go in that day, I didn't initial it! Something told me not to. Something didn't feel right about it and I followed my heart.Yep, my heart, the same one that is supposedly in such bad shape that I need a man made device to promise me life in case of an event. It amazes me that heart doctors who know everything there is to know about the heart, don't know a thing about the soul.
Drs, DO get free samples of drugs, etc. and they do get some (kickbacks) per say- some being different than others....But a lot of people don't know that most Drs. have a store room of sample meds. which they can give patients for free......If they are not giving them away to patients then where do they go? I do not know about implants/ kickbacks--but not knowing does not make it untrue.....Definitely get a new Heart DR. I have a great Heart Dr. I moved from NJ to Pa and I make the trip to him every 3 monthes, because I have yet to find a good one here---only problem---if I am taken to the local Hospital the local heart Dr will not have pertinent information about me....I carry all of the last tests and my Dr card with me all the time-including having a copy in my car....
sorry maybe I misread; which is common with me sorry :( I thought they made you have an ICD implanted already? I'll go back read it again when I'm completely awake =)
It all depends on what your state laws are really as to what he did is legally right. The dr may have had the right to do whatever necessary to diagnose & treat plus keep you alive if something happened.
I found out the hard way about this back in Aug 2009 when I had an EP Study to try and find out what was causing my roughly 50,000 pvc's and VT runs. My Echo's were structurally normal and my cath was clean except my LVEDP and systemic pressures were high; I had nothing else wrong prior to surgery.
My dr found I was easily inducible for VFib and I went into long runs of malignant polymorphic VT and had to be revived 3 times with only 1 stimulation. I had a Boston Scientific Teligen 100 Pacemaker/ICD implanted but that wasn't until 2 days after and it was my choice.
I had a DNR (do not resuscitate) but because I had signed the paperwork for surgery there was a conflict of interest in the fine print. I don't even remember if I read the fine print - I had many pages of stuff to go over and was scared to death of even having surgery.
Your case is a bit different though, not only did you but your wife told this doctor you didn't want this device put in and yes I've read that with the right stimulation anyone can go into Vfib. Have you gotten a complete copy of your surgery and the transcript from the doctor and hospital? Send in a written request if you want them, some make you pay but there are some places that don't - mine were $1.00 per page.
If you really feel this is the case and this is what the dr did, then you need to seek legal counsel and let them look over your files. This dr knew you refused this procedure and wouldn't sign papers for it and I would run as fast as I could from him and find another doctor and check all my options before saying anything else to anyone.
There's a great ICD support forum group if you google it, the members there may be able to help abit more because it deals specifically in those of us with Pacemaker/ICD's.
I found out the hard way about this back in Aug 2009 when I had an EP Study to try and find out what was causing my roughly 50,000 pvc's and VT runs. My Echo's were structurally normal and my cath was clean except my LVEDP and systemic pressures were high; I had nothing else wrong prior to surgery.
My dr found I was easily inducible for VFib and I went into long runs of malignant polymorphic VT and had to be revived 3 times with only 1 stimulation. I had a Boston Scientific Teligen 100 Pacemaker/ICD implanted but that wasn't until 2 days after and it was my choice.
I had a DNR (do not resuscitate) but because I had signed the paperwork for surgery there was a conflict of interest in the fine print. I don't even remember if I read the fine print - I had many pages of stuff to go over and was scared to death of even having surgery.
Your case is a bit different though, not only did you but your wife told this doctor you didn't want this device put in and yes I've read that with the right stimulation anyone can go into Vfib. Have you gotten a complete copy of your surgery and the transcript from the doctor and hospital? Send in a written request if you want them, some make you pay but there are some places that don't - mine were $1.00 per page.
If you really feel this is the case and this is what the dr did, then you need to seek legal counsel and let them look over your files. This dr knew you refused this procedure and wouldn't sign papers for it and I would run as fast as I could from him and find another doctor and check all my options before saying anything else to anyone.
There's a great ICD support forum group if you google it, the members there may be able to help abit more because it deals specifically in those of us with Pacemaker/ICD's.
Yes Sunbev it was downright frighting, and i was downright pissed when I was shocked back, and was downright confused by this dr changing things from eval appointment to procedure day. His temper was obvious, there was no denying it. We got really confused by all that was transpiring at a pretty fast rate minutes before I was to go in. Then afterwards trying to understand it all. Our plan is certainly to get another dr. But I can't believe at the moment that after several days of my post being up that you are the only person who has commented. Where are the professionals opinions who are commenting on others. Are they staying clear of my story here. Could it be common knowledge among the healthcare community that, this is, what I suspect it is, and, won't comment due to ongoing investigations by the Dept Of Justice and FDA. I don't know everything, nor do I believe everything I see on the internet, but, I do trust when I see findings from the Dept Of Justice. Other healthcare people I talk to, that are either friends or relations, defend the system with a vengeance. I've learned in the past few days the I'm not really gonna get any empathy or feedback that leans towards our suspicions being true or even possible from, apparently, any healthcare types. One thing I do get is "who cares if your dr didn't have any bed side manner, he's a specialists and probably the best in the business, that's what you want when dealing with something as serious as your condition, so you better just get the ICD and do not **** off any doctors who choose what products they use." It's like their telling me I shouldn't even bother with investigating which products are out there and which ones might not be involved in unscrupulous practices like paying off practitioners to use as many of they're products as they can to make the bottom line look good and help them lead in the market. Am I wrong to care if the product this dr planned to stick in me has been busted doing this, and apparently, has payed out millions in fines. I do know my body, and whether or not internet stories are true, like, these particular products having problems such as random triggering, wiring going bad, wiring coming unscrewed and moving around inside your ventricles causing shock in delicate areas of our hearts when random triggering happens. Look, these are man made instruments, subject to having flaws. Every man made electronic device made in this world is not foolproof, right? From something like an icd unit down to your dvd player, there is some percentage of chance you might get a dud. I've spent my own fair share of time soldering things back together and trying to fix module boards from being a musician , guitarist, who needs electronics to work so I can do my job, and, Ive had a lot of crap screw up and stop working. Why should I let someone sew an electronic device into my skin with wires leading to and screwing into my heart, based on the fact that, that's just the product he has a relationship with. He hasn't told me how he came to like this product brand, he hasn't explained to me that his success rate with this product is 100% and he's never seen a problem. But, I certainly am seeing some market research on this product line that points out flaws. What to do? I don't know yet, and I won't be conducting another EP study, ever. Especially when I know that a dr can induce V fib during the study at will. And if they want to sell a unit, with a kickback involved or having stock investments, that could be the driving motivation to them forcing a patient into V fib and shocking them back so they can convince a patient it's the course to take in order to get the bottom line up. Hell, for all I know this dr might own stock in St Jude, not completely out of the question right?
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