Can HBV be cleared, not just controlled, NOW?

Here (http://www.medhelp.org/personal_pages/user/900408) are posted pre- and post-treatment labs of some HBV patients with different levels of severity, all cured with HBsAg becoming negative!

What do you think?  Are you still satisfied with the brain washing that "HBV is not curable", "Treatment can only control the replication of HBV", "There is no cure now", "Live with it", "Disease is part of life"?

Note:

1.  Top lab sheet is pre-treatment; bottom lab sheet is post-treatment.
2.
HBsAg = HBsAg
抗-HBS = HBsAB
HBeAg = HBeAg
抗-HBe = HBeAB
抗-HBc = HBcAB
HBV-DNA = HBV-DNA

[bberry]

i gotta say it jim.. i love ya man :-)

[bberry]

hmm, we just need that NewYorker dude to jump on the bandwagon :-)

[NashPred]

What kind of treatments were these people taking?

Were all cases chronic?

As much as I would love to believe that a cure has been found (and I do think a cure will be found one day), there are a few things that send up a red flag. i.e. most of these results appear to be as much as 8 years old and also show that these people didn’t just clear HBsAg, but also cleared out HBcAb……a marker that should remain positive even after clearance. How does the HBcAb just become negative?

[cajim]

"How does the HBcAb just become negative?"

If I understand correctly, HBcAB represents dead bodies of one state of the liver disease that even after clearance stays in the blood stream, you call it marker.  Because the treatment tries not only to kill the alive virus but also to clear out dead virus bodies from the blood stream, hence the HBcAB(-), HBeAB(-), and HBsAg(-).

[bberry]

hence the HBcAB(-), HBeAB(-), and HBsAg(-).


- brings the patient to the starting point as if they ever had the virus ? wouldnt show prior infection ?

[cajim]

I think the HBsAg to (-) is the goal, the rest is fringe benefit.

[NashPred]

So is it just this certain treatment that can return all of your lab reports to a point where it appears as if you have never had HBV?

Is this the treatment you have been trying out in addition to taking your Baraclude, cajim?

[cajim]

"So is it just this certain treatment that can return all of your lab reports to a point where it appears as if you have never had HBV?"

--Not all patients have everything (-), but HBsAg is definitely (-).

"Is this the treatment you have been trying out in addition to taking your Baraclude, cajim?"

--I have not used Baraclude.

[bberry]

i think cajim is the only regular on here doing away with pills.. more power to him :-)

i wonder if this treatment would work with patients already on meds?

will this treatment need a patient with no prior treatment or can it be an adition to an already existing treatment ?

do they have  stats on hits and misses and the number of people that have tried it or been on it ?

[NashPred]

Sorry, I thought I had read that you had started Baraclude a few months ago.

So are these results from people who have used the same alternative treatment that you are trying now?

There are not from people who have used anti-viral treatment? Right?

Just trying to understand what type of treatment these people used to achive these results.

[cajim]

"i wonder if this treatment would work with patients already on meds?"

--Not sure.

"will this treatment need a patient with no prior treatment or can it be an adition to an already existing treatment ?"

--Not sure.

"do they have  stats on hits and misses and the number of people that have tried it or been on it ?"

--I think so.  Will try to get them.

So are these results from people who have used the same alternative treatment that you are trying now?

--No.  I use something different.

There are not from people who have used anti-viral treatment? Right?

--Not sure.

[zellyf]

You've seen hard copies of these labs yourself? Or people posted their results on the interwebz?  

I'm still brainwashed into preferring modern medicine over medieval brews and pharmaceuticals over snake oil.  

Of course, if you are from a country with socialized medicine it is in the country's economic interest to advance the idea that holistic remedies are better than pharmaceuticals.  If you can convince people to eat soup instead of taking Baraclude that's a huge savings.

[cajim]

"You've seen hard copies of these labs yourself? Or people posted their results on the interwebz?"

--Not hard copies, but I believe they are true.

"I'm still brainwashed into preferring modern medicine over medieval brews and pharmaceuticals over snake oil."

--You are not alone and pharmaceutical investors love you for that.

"Of course, if you are from a country with socialized medicine it is in the country's economic interest to advance the idea that holistic remedies are better than pharmaceuticals.  If you can convince people to eat soup instead of taking Baraclude that's a huge savings."

--1. China has stopped having socialized medicine for 20-30 years;  2. In fact most HBVers adore Baraclude just like here;  3. Medicine prospers in China because of the huge profits from selling Baraclude and other western antiviral drugs, even though they don't cure more than 95% of the time.

[cajim]

Available statistics:

From September 2002 to December 2005, 589 patients were treated of whom 358 completed the treatment course with the results:

HBsAg cleared:
1.  172 had HBsAg, HBeAg, HBcAB changing to negative (48.10%)，62 developed positive HBsAB (36%);
2.  49 had HBsAg, HBeAg/HBeAB changing to negative (13.70%);
3.  52 only had HBsAg changing to negative (14.50%);
4.  85 still had HBsAg positive at the end of treatment (23.7%).

HBV-DNA:
1.  Of the 172 in 1 above, all had HBV-DNA (-);
2.  Of the 49 in 2 above, 38 had HBV-DNA (-);
3.  Of the 85 in 4 above, 47 had HBV-DNA (-).

Follow-up study:
Of the 389 patients with values changed to negative, 28 relapsed (7.30%).

[zellyf]

I love pharmaceutical investors as much as they love me. We have a symbiotic relationship. I don't have a grudge against "Big Pharma" just because they are interested in making a profit. I'm far more suspicious of someone who promises me something for nothing.

[zellyf]

Also, China's official government run healthcare system has been defunct since the 70s but it is moving very rapidly toward "universal healthcare" which is just another word for the same thing.

[cajim]

1.  I agree: everyone should be suspicious of promises of something for nothing.
2.  Except for officials who are protected by the state, almost nobody in China has universal healthcare.  Everyone has to pay for and carry health insurance and nobody is covered 100%.  Of course, no insurance, no coverage.

There are two schools of Chinese medicine: the court school and the layman school to which the above treatment belongs based on the fact that this treatment does not hesitate to use toxins to kill toxins in order to achieve the goal of cure.  It is unknown what the long-term effects of the toxins are, short-term it does get the HBsAg clearing job done with a much higher percentage than IFN and all antiviral drugs combined and at a much lower cost too.

[stevenNYer]

Not surprisingly, the NewYorker dude is not on the cure bandwagon.

Let's assume these labs are genuine.  This only prove what we already know.  Spontaneously "S" seroconversion does occur (at about 1% per year for chronic HBV infection).  In a country where there are probably hundred of million with chronic HepB, 1% of hundred of millions is still alot of people.  Realistic, how hard would it to find some "cure" labs, especially if you work with lots and lots of patients.

So let's if  become the 1% that "S" seroconvert and the week before I was eating alot of pizza with extra extra cheese.  Do I say the extra extra cheese is the cure for HepB since I will have before and after labs to prove it.  

We don't know the circumstances and methods of the studies of which the labs came from.  I don't really trust the labs from 8 years ago.  One lab is from 2001, that's the dark ages for HepB.   That's before ADV, ETV, TDF, etc.  And it's fair to conclude the standards of the study is questionable since the names of the patients are on the labs for all to see.

If a cure is so readily available, why do we have hundreds of millions of people with chronic HepB.  It's not ethical to hide the cure.  It's improbable that the cure person is so hesitant to join the ranks of Bill Gates and Buffett to market the legit cure.  Is Big Pharma so powerful to prevent the evolution of money to be made.

And if this study comes from China and confirms a cure for HepB, China wouldn't have needed the Olympics to put herself on the maps.  China would have had its coming out party in 2001 or whenever the cure was found.  

That being say, discussion is always good, but I just want to provide due caution for excess hope at this time.

[cajim]

"Not surprisingly, the NewYorker dude is not on the cure bandwagon."

--Not surprisingly, some day he will because he does not deny facts and reason.

"Let's assume these labs are genuine.  This only prove what we already know.  Spontaneously "S" seroconversion does occur (at about 1% per year for chronic HBV infection).  In a country where there are probably hundred of million with chronic HepB, 1% of hundred of millions is still alot of people.  Realistic, how hard would it to find some "cure" labs, especially if you work with lots and lots of patients."

--273 out of 358, that is 76%, not 1% out of hundreds of millions; also which spontaneous seroconversion turns HBcAB negative?

"So let's if  become the 1% that "S" seroconvert and the week before I was eating alot of pizza with extra extra cheese.  Do I say the extra extra cheese is the cure for HepB since I will have before and after labs to prove it."

--The treatment took months and careful records easily put this doubt at ease.  

"We don't know the circumstances and methods of the studies of which the labs came from.  I don't really trust the labs from 8 years ago.  One lab is from 2001, that's the dark ages for HepB.   That's before ADV, ETV, TDF, etc.  And it's fair to conclude the standards of the study is questionable since the names of the patients are on the labs for all to see."

--1.  labs are labs and because of the extent of the Hep B problem, labs in China are often more detailed and quantified than here;  2.  ADV, ETV, TDF, etc. have effects on HBV replication but they have no impact on lab technology;  3.  Patients willingly offered their information on the lab sheets, some did have names partially hidden and many did not even offer their lab sheets exactly due to privacy consideration.

"If a cure is so readily available, why do we have hundreds of millions of people with chronic HepB.  It's not ethical to hide the cure.  It's improbable that the cure person is so hesitant to join the ranks of Bill Gates and Buffett to market the legit cure.  Is Big Pharma so powerful to prevent the evolution of money to be made."

--1. The power of interest groups: if Hep B can be so easily cured, who are there to buy the tons of ADV, ETV, TDF, etc.? who are there to pay to visit the western doctors? who are there to sell all they have and then borrow a lot to pay surgeons for liver transplantation and all the procedures associated with the surgery for 1-year-or-so's additional living, in poverty and agony?  2. The natural human doubts you and I have towards things that are new to us coupled with the fact of many false claims and advertisements in China; these two reasons alone are enough to stifle many valuable treatments.  Interestingly, the majority of the cured patients were local peasants and their families with their simple human trust and inability to pay for the sky-high-priced, western, scientific, fashionable ADV, ETV, TDF, etc.

"And if this study comes from China and confirms a cure for HepB, China wouldn't have needed the Olympics to put herself on the maps.  China would have had its coming out party in 2001 or whenever the cure was found."

--I guess the Chinese government considered the difference between the low-cost low-profit treatment for 10% of their people and an even smaller percentage worldwide and the political impact of Olympics as that between the dirt and the sky.  In the eyes of HBVers HBV may be a giant but in the eyes of politicians？？？

“That being say, discussion is always good, but I just want to provide due caution for excess hope at this time.”

--Agreed:  caution is always good as long as the judge in one is a believer in facts not a memory of old data.

[Sharp7]

One question about Chinese medicine: do Chinese insurance companies cover treatment by traditional Chinese medicine?
The reason I ask: I would like to know if Chinese businesses have confidence in traditional Chinese medicine.

[zellyf]

If Big Pharma were so interested in continuing to keep people sick why would there be a huge push to vaccinate children?  Eventually this will wipe out Hep B the way it did small pox and then they will have to invent new diseases in order to be lucrative.  Even the profit made from the vaccine would be lost at they  have been for small pox for which we don't even have to vaccinate anymore.

The reason there is no big push to find a cure for Hep B is exactly because there is a vaccine now. In several generations Hep B could be eradicated.  Money and time and effort will go into finding a cure for things for which there is currently no vaccine.  

China is moving quickly toward universal health care and has to look ahead to that.  

[cajim]

"Do Chinese insurance companies cover treatment by traditional Chinese medicine?"

--I believe some do and some don't but I am not sure.

"The reason I ask: I would like to know if Chinese businesses have confidence in traditional Chinese medicine."

--In China there is a preference for western medicine, partly because most people believe even the moon abroad is rounder.  Look at the modern hospital buildings, the CT, MRI boxes, and the troops of white-coated doctors uttering long foreign words like lamivudine, interferon, and entecavir!  Then look at this local herbal old man with a hoe in hand, a basket of roots, barks and grass on back, not even owning a stethoscope!  Isn't it obvious who is more scientific, more modern, more fashionable?  Besides, I am not even a cow, why do I need grass?!  Pills in bottles look so much more industrialized!  They are cool!

[cajim]

That emergency care, vaccination, surgery and diagnosis in western medicine are superior over those in Chinese medicine should not cover up the fact that western medicine is not as successful in treating chronic diseases, in fact they are having a hard time as evidenced by so many patients with chronic diseases with no cure, HBVers included.  Fundamentally, the philosophy of treating by killing may never solve the chronic problems at their roots, rather it often ends up with solving one problem and creating two at the same time.

[cajim]

"I wonder if this treatment would work with patients already on meds? "

--According to the practicing herbal doctor, last year he had two patients on antiviral drugs when starting his treatment, one month into the treatment they gradually started to reduce the antiviral drug dosage until the medication was stopped.  No flare was evinced in these two cases.  However, caution is needed as no conclusion can be made yet.

[Sharp7]

If I may take the liberty of continuing your story of the CT vs. the old man:

Insurance company ABC insures treatment exclusively with "western medicine" (WM), and insurance company DEF insures treatment exclusively with "eastern medicine" (EM). ABC charges $1000 per person per year. An average, reasonably healthy person runs up a bill of $600 per year with WM. Some sick people may run up bills of several $1000s, but on an average, there is enough left for ABC to make a reasonable profit. DEF charges far less than $1000 - in fact only $500 per person per year. However, since DEF does not cover any WM, the costs of patients are quite low... on an average $50. An additional benefit is that customers of DEF lead long and healthy lives, and continue to do business because EM works so well for them. DEF has many satisfied customers.

All I was saying was, "I would like to know if DEF is still running, and profitable".

From what little I know of a efficiently-run financial business (so few examples these days!) is that they care a lot about margins and other numbers. Their board meetings would have, "would our profits increase if we start encouraging people to use EM rather than WM, even if we lower the premium?". They wouldn't give a damn which, between EM and WM, has shinier bottles or bitterer pills.

Anyway, let's leave aside the straw-men. I will now speak about my own background: I am an engineer: I mean to imply that I am OK with a bit of math now and then, though by no means a whiz at math. I have worked for a company where six-sigma was the holy-grail. Though I did not use six-sigma myself, I got to learn about statistical methods to some extent, enough to help me realize how important it was. That is why western medicine, with its thoroughness with its reductionistic approach and measurements and statistics... umm... resonates with my soul !  If anything, I am more likely to be the brain-washer than the brain-washed !  Kidding! Actually, I do not care much what other people think. If they can help me understand "reality", good, I will learn from them! If they wish to learn from me, I will help to some extent.

The images you posted are not directly accessible to me. In the sense... I do not understand the language, I cannot do background checks, etc. I do not know if their findings are peer-reviewed. (Peer review! Another process I respect so much! I have seen at my work place how much this improves the quality of the output!). My next thought was: where else can I find data I can use? Insurance! I guesstimated that these people (with their own numbers and statistics) would be less likely to be brainwashed EMoholics or brainwashed WMoholics than their diseased and distraught customers.

Until I have data otherwise, I swear by the null hypothesis :-)

[zellyf]

Sharp,

Your formal logic is wasted here, I'm afraid.  I wish it weren't but if eating grass is unstylish in this day and age then formal and traditional logic exercises have gone the way of waistcoats and spats. That said, it did make for a fun read.  I just don't think its going to resonate the way it should.  Once people have  made an emotional commitment to being against something its pretty hard to steer them any other way.

[stevenNYer]

"--273 out of 358, that is 76% ("S" seroconverted)"

76%, that's it?  In seriousness, I could find a cure with above 90% "S" seroconversion with labs and labs charts to back it up in herbal stores in all three of NYC's Chinatown.  Does this impress anyone?  

"which spontaneous seroconversion turns HBcAB negative"  

It doesn't.  But actually, this reinforces shady labs, not a cure.  HBcAb is the antibody developed by your immune system to HBV's core protein.  Even if you are cure, the HBcAb will be positive.  Natural antibodies stay in your system even in absent of the corresponding antigen.

"labs in China are often more detailed and quantified than here"

I disagree.  Just because there are more people infected with HBV in China doesn't mean China has better knowledge in this area.  HBV research and development got a head start in the West.  Baruch  Blumberg, an American scientist identified the Hepatitis B virus.  His work led to the diagnostic testing, and the development of a vaccine (AKA eventual future cure).  Maybe Big Pharma should have paid Blumberg off and shut him up.  I mean if they did, they would have made millions fold of money from future (generations) of infections had they eliminated the vaccine.  

And lastly, if a cure currently exist but not accessible for whatever reason (in a planet outside of the Milkyway, in the hands of Megatron, or even in North Korea), it's it really a cure?  Not for me and probably not for the next chronic B Hepper.

Sadly, I am comfortable with my facts and reason in concluding no cure at this time.  People don't have to agree, but I'm comfortable with where I stand.

[cajim]

Absolutely there are parts of your logical reasoning that are beyond me.  From what I thought I understood, I seemed to get the idea that insurance companies do not care what treatment is used and promoted by a society.  As long as they by their sophisticated statistic model can see there is enough to cover the insured and some profit whatever treatment is fine.  I agree.  But what about interest groups like pharmaceutical companies and western doctors?  If the herbal man can cure the patients such that no one needs to buy drugs from the pharmaceutical companies or pay to visit the doctors, do you think they will behave like the insurance company?

[cajim]

"76%, that's it?  In seriousness, I could find a cure with above 90% "S" seroconversion with labs and labs charts to back it up in herbal stores in all three of NYC's Chinatown.  Does this impress anyone?"

--Precisely because of the existence of false claims and advertisements people find it hard to trust anything, true or false.

"It doesn't.  But actually, this reinforces shady labs, not a cure.  HBcAb is the antibody developed by your immune system to HBV's core protein.  Even if you are cure, the HBcAb will be positive.  Natural antibodies stay in your system even in absent of the corresponding antigen."

--Fascinating!  Interest groups in China like pharmaceutical companies and western doctors who have life-and-death reasons to knock down this treatment have not used the obvious falsity to ridicule their opponent.

"I disagree.  Just because there are more people infected with HBV in China doesn't mean China has better knowledge in this area.  HBV research and development got a head start in the West.  Baruch  Blumberg, an American scientist identified the Hepatitis B virus.  His work led to the diagnostic testing, and the development of a vaccine (AKA eventual future cure).  Maybe Big Pharma should have paid Blumberg off and shut him up.  I mean if they did, they would have made millions fold of money from future (generations) of infections had they eliminated the vaccine."

--I hope among this community there is someone directly from the lab field in China can put in their RenMinBi to match Steven's US dollar.  

"And lastly, if a cure currently exist but not accessible for whatever reason (in a planet outside of the Milkyway, in the hands of Megatron, or even in North Korea), it's it really a cure?  Not for me and probably not for the next chronic B Hepper."

--It is so accessible you wouldn't believe it because you don't believe it.

"Sadly, I am comfortable with my facts and reason in concluding no cure at this time.  People don't have to agree, but I'm comfortable with where I stand."

--You would be more comfortable when you know that many many many HBVers in China like you believe in no cure as they pop in their ADV, ETV, TDF, etc.

[bberry]

is there a cure ? hmmm well hell ya there is a cure.. the fact that it isnt here yet doesnt mean there is not one just around the corner. it may be next year or 10 years from now..maybe not even in our life time who knows

a conspiracy theory:  conspiracy theories  are usually good for  movies, but i cant persoanlly come to terms with myself that the fact that a cure is not out there right now is because someone is hiding it hoping to make more money. like steven said, whomever finds a cure for this thing will be in the books for eternity..he will financially be sitting somewhere next to bill gates, people's mag pick for man of the decade of centruty for that matter , and ofcourse lets not forget the nobel prize much like the scientist who idenfied hepB . ( sorry forgot his name).

remedies: long ago.. as in 1000s of years ago , people got sick.. its the nature of life . as i recall LLY, PZE , WYE, MERCK and a milion others did not exist at the time. herbs did exist though and in them man was able to find a cure for diseases.. are all herbs good to cure just about any disease ? hmm, no ofcourse though some claim but scientifically it is not proven. people did use some remedies to cure some illnesses and as you all know - well , for the most part - that every time a specific herb is found to cure certain diseases some bio company grabs the intiatives to study it, research it and they do in the process spend lots of money . i am sure the fact that a bio or pharma company take the time, energy, and lots of cash burning studying herbs and trying to come up with cures for certain illnesses.. we've all seen it with many herbs. PPOINT IS, while baraclude is the one way for me to go at this time and i find it the be the safest well studied well equiped to keep me away from possible regression in my health, i still want to leave the door open for herbal remedies. they may not be all scietifinally proven but had they not worked for millions of people for thousands of years, we wouldnt have been sitting here debating if they do indeed work or not..

ok well, this was my 2 cents.( and i am almost out of money..lol )

[zellyf]

It amuses me that people take such offense at the idea that a business would want to be profitable and wouldn't just spend millions of dollars coming up with new treatments out of the goodness of their heart.  There really is nothing preventing someone from doing that its just that...yeah, no one is going to do it.

People who spend their lives researching diseases and cures deserve to be compensated.  Corporations that provide them with the labs and capital and resources to do that deserve to be compensated.  People who sit around moaning about why no one will cure them and tearing down the very people who are trying to help them because *gasp* they aren't doing it for freeeeeee...well, they deserve what they get too.

But, I guess I don't see myself as a victim.  Not of Hep B. Not of "BIG PHARMA". Not of anything.  I'm just a biological organism that got itself a virus.  Nothing personal but a virus just gotta live somewhere.  And because I don't feel victimized I don't have to hunt down my aggressor.  I don't have to demand that someone do something for me for free.

That attitude grates far more than anyone's interest in herbal remedies.

[cajim]

More cases posted (http://www.medhelp.org/personal_pages/user/900408).

"Case" group of patients are typically older with years of chronic Hep B already experiencing cirrhosis, ascites and other liver disease symptoms.  This group has a prescription different from the rest.

"mCase" group of patients have milder symptoms but lab readings indicate disease progression.  This group has a prescription different from the rest.

"xCase" group of patients typically are asymptomatic, healthy-looking and active like others, only lab readings indicate their Hep B status.  This group has a prescription different from the rest.

Advice from the practicing doctor:  When people change from HBeAg(+) to HBeAg(-) with HBV-DNA(-) and normal liver function, they are very happy and regard themselves as healthy carriers.  This may last for years, even decades.  However the virus never stops working until it has the upper hand over the immune system.  By then the damage is serious and many patients die as a result.  That the majority of patients with cirrhosis, ascites, fatal hepatitis and HCC have HBeAg(-) and HBV-DNA(-) is proof.  It is wrong and dangerous not to treat HBeAg(-) until HBsAg(-).

[stevenNYer]

HBcAb doesn't represent dead (virus) bodies.  The HBV core antigen is a protein in the virus physical make up, therefore this antigen is not in your blood.  That's the reason why we don't have a marker for "HBcAg" via blood test.  The core antigen is one of the things that our immune system picks up quickly.  HBcAb is an antibody that is develop by our immune system in response to that antigen.  Unfortuately the core region has many bad of mutating tricks to escape HBcAb.  HBcAb is in your blood.  Once developed, like the other thousands, probably million of antibodies in your system stays in your system to keep you safe.  That is why adults with acute infection who absolutely clear the virus will still have the HBcAb in their system to show once upon a time there the HBV core antigen was here.  So if the HBcAb goes from positive to negative from a "treatment", you have a treatment that have the ability to destroy antibodies and jeopardize the very makeup of our immune system.  That would be concerning.  Anyone who doubts this could just pick up a bio-chem textbook.

Cajim: if you have access to and to plan to use this "cure" treatment, I hope you succeed.  I would trust your labs more than those post from stranger individuals from 2001 since I have some background from you from your post.

[cajim]

Could it be that HBcAB, an antibody that indicates previous infection, is a physical entity in blood that is removable just like the antigens?

If accessible and necessary, I will try this treatment and of course I will keep this community updated.  Thank you for your good wish.

[apache1]

Hey Steven,
=================================================
The HBV core antigen is a protein in the virus physical make up, therefore this antigen is not in your blood.  That's the reason why we don't have a marker for "HBcAg" via blood test.

HBcAb is an antibody that is develop by our immune system in response to that antigen.
=================================================

Couldn't this also mean there are core antigens present, and thats why the body is still producing core antibodies... just thinking out loud all this HBV is very new to me. Is there no test for core antigens ? or would this take a cellular type test instead of a blood test ?

I have:
- surface antigens  (pre and post hcv tx - )
+ total core antibodies  (only tested post hcv tx )
-core IGM antibody  (only tested pre hcv tx )
no surface antibody test yet, wonder why NP didn't order it?  

My NP told me if I ever have to go on immune suppressant drugs, I should take drugs to suppress HBV before starting chemo.
I am wondering why, if all I have is the core antibodies you speak of.  
What would cause the HBV to reemerge if no antigens are present ?
Are core antigens still present, maybe causing the body to make core anti bodies ?... and the immune system is keeping things in check.

If this core antibody is indeed only a left over, and not an immune response to current antigens, then you bring up a good point Steve. This new treatment causing antibodies to disappear might not be a good thing for our immune systems in the long run.

apache

[stevenNYer]

"Could it be that HBcAB, an antibody that indicates previous infection, is a physical entity in blood that is removable just like the antigens?"

Thanks to our humoral immune system which produce antibodies.  There are literally millions of specific antibodies in your body at this time.  For the most part, they all have a similiar basic structure but the tip of this structure is very very specific.  This allows millions of different antibodies to exist in your body to target the million and millions of foreign invaders to your body.  These are your guardians and why we are all here.  If we lose this mechanism, the human race is finished.  Now do you see why there a problem with the HBcAb disappearing.  It would probably be a trillion to one shot that this "cure treatment" could identify and target the a specific (in this case, HBcAb) and remove it from your body.  There is a better chance of of ME accidentally discovering a cure for HepB than for this speicifc antibody termination process to happen.  If antibodies just disappears, polio, small pox will return to finish us off and we no longer have to wish for a cure for HepB.

[stevenNYer]

"Couldn't this also mean there are core antigens present, and thats why the body is still producing core antibodies"

Yes, in the case of an acute infection.  What happens is that your immune system recognize the core protein in the virus / infected liver cell.  First comes the "IgM anti-HBc"  then it kind of matures into the HBcAb.  That is why the "IgM anti-HBc" is the marker of an acute or young infection and why HBcAb is marker of just infection.

In your case, if your surface antigen is - and core antibody is +, it's likely you are immune by past infection.  Your NP probably didn't order the HepB surface antibody test because your NP assumed it to be positive (again, immune by past infection).

[stevenNYer]

"My NP told me if I ever have to go on immune suppressant drugs, I should take drugs to suppress HBV before starting chemo. "

If your posted labs are accurate, you are probably immune to HBV.  Check to make sure your HepB Surface antibody is positive.  Maybe even a HBV DNA to make sure it;s UND (undectected).  If so, I don't think you need to make antivirals meds before starting chemo.  I think this recommendation is for people who have chronic and inactive HepB.  If you NP insist on not confirming the test and want you to go on antiviral HepB meds, see a second opinion.  That's what I would do anyway.  Good luck.

[apache1]

Steven,
"want you to go on antiviral HepB meds"
=================================
I by no means have to go on chemo.
And thats a BIG NO for going on HBV antivirals for a virus I don't have.
My NP by no means suggested that. In fact she said I do not have HBV or inactive HBV.

NP said if I ever HAVE TO IN THE FUTURE,  for some unknown reason at this time,
(possible future illness), then and only then, since I have the 'hbv total core antibody' and no surface antigen -, I should do hbv antivirals BEFORE chemo.

From what the np tells me, -surface antigen, +hbv total core antibody + chemo induced  immune suppression can bring hbv back. ?
Is this correct ?

And from what you where saying in this thread about disappearing core antibodies, I though it relevant. If HEP B Core AntiBodies are gone from this new treatment, could that possibly mean any remnant core antigens are gone too, and no amount of immune suppression can re activate the HBV ?

Have not had a chance to talk to my Hepatologist yet about this new to me HBV core antibody thing.  When I go back for my HCV SVR test next month, will talk to him.

I am a very layperson when it comes to this hbv. Sorry for kind of getting your thread a little off topic cajim, I wish you the best of luck with this treatment if you do decide on it.

apache

[cajim]

Reply from the practicing doctor regarding the question, "How come the treatment also clears HBcAB?  Will it also clear HBsAB?":

1.  HBcAB and HBsAB are very different antibodies in terms of protecting the body against HBsAg:  While the latter has the ability of clearing invading HBsAg, the former does not have such ability.

2.  Even though there are cured patients whose HBcAB becomes (-) there are also cured patients whose HBcAB remain (+) and their recovery process with respect to Hep B is the same:  Using serial quantitative lab testing, one sees that as HBsAg number decreases HBsAB numbers increases until the former becomes (-) and the latter (+).

3.  The treatment consists of two parts:  the first part kills the virus so that its dead body is in the blood with dead liver cells etc. while the second part cleans the dead bodies from the blood.  If HBcAB becomes (-) it is the effect of the second part.

4.  There are cured patients whose HBsAg becomes (-) with HBsAB remaining (-) in which case they are vaccinated to get HBsAB to (+); there are no cured patients whose already positive HBsAB becomes (-) after the second part of treatment.

[stevenNYer]

Apach1:

I re-posted your question:

http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Hepatitis-B/Core-Antibody-related-question-from-Apache1/show/949434

Cajim:

"1.  HBcAB and HBsAB are very different antibodies in terms of protecting the body against HBsAg:  While the latter has the ability of clearing invading HBsAg, the former does not have such ability."

Agreed.  I mentioned this earlier: antibodies "basic structure but the tip of this structure is very very specific".  HBV's core and surface proteins have unique / different tips.

"2.  Even though there are cured patients whose HBcAB becomes (-) there are also cured patients whose HBcAB remain (+) and their recovery process with respect to Hep B is the same..."

This is not acceptable to me because it goes against the mechanism of our humoral immune system.  All pts who had HepB regardless of clearance should have HBcAb positive.

"3.  ...while the second part cleans the dead bodies from the blood.  If HBcAB becomes (-) it is the effect of the second part."

Not acceptable.  It's too vague.  There is no explanation of this "glitch" on the humoral immune system.  The only way to "clear" this core antibody is to somehow make the humonal immune system stop making this (and only this) specific antibody amonst the millions of antibodies that it makes.  That "practicing doctor's" answer is the equivalent of saying, "it works just because it works".

"4.  There are cured patients whose HBsAg becomes (-) with HBsAB remaining (-) in which case they are vaccinated to get HBsAB to (+); there are no cured patients whose already positive HBsAB becomes (-) after the second part of treatment."

This makes sense since the claim is that the "treatment" is what eliminates the virus and not a direct response from your immune system.  Therefore the HBsAb is negative.  And thus needing to get vaccinated for immunity.

[stevenNYer]

That was a fun read.  Nice post.

[stevenNYer]

Let me remind all what treatment has to overcome in order to cure chronic HepB.  

This is from HR explaining the surface antigen to me sometime ago:

"The surface antigen is frequently integrated/incorporated/translocated in the human genome of infected hepatocytes itself, often without the rest of the viral genome remaining. Now some of your hepatocytes produce just the surface antigen, no other viral protein. If the immune system attacks other viral proteins/aspects and eliminates almost al cells harboring the virus, these cells remain -AND STILL PRODUCE -surface antigen. This prevents the anti HbS to achieve functional titers against the minute remnants of true virus even after successful 99.9999% "clearance" in many cases, THUS REINFECTION is not hindered and the virus slowly grows back from minute remnants. This happens mostly in long standing infections...."

So the virus has this strategy that took millions, probably billions rounds of evolution to produce.  So when someone suggest a cure, they best be ready to defend it, because I like all want desperately to believe.  And because "it works" won't do it.

[cajim]

"2.  Even though there are cured patients whose HBcAB becomes (-) there are also cured patients whose HBcAB remain (+) and their recovery process with respect to Hep B is the same..."

S:  This is not acceptable to me because it goes against the mechanism of our humoral immune system.  All pts who had HepB regardless of clearance should have HBcAb positive.

J:  Even (+) HBsAB may decrease in number with the passage of time, it is not impossible, in fact it is a fact that for some cured patients HBcAB has decreased to (-) as a result of blood cleaning.  All patients with chronic Hep B have (+) HBcAB but we don't benefit from it, do we?

"3.  ...while the second part cleans the dead bodies from the blood.  If HBcAB becomes (-) it is the effect of the second part."

S:  Not acceptable.  It's too vague.  There is no explanation of this "glitch" on the humoral immune system.  The only way to "clear" this core antibody is to somehow make the humonal immune system stop making this (and only this) specific antibody amonst the millions of antibodies that it makes.  That "practicing doctor's" answer is the equivalent of saying, "it works just because it works".

J:  I do not claim to understand how the treatment at all but I don't think it clears this core antibody by "somehow making the humonal immune system stop making this (and only this) specific antibody amonst the millions of antibodies that it makes."  It takes much more knowledge than I have about Chinese medicine to understand why certain herbs are chosen, why the specific doseges are chosen, why specific acupuncture points are chosen for blood cleaning, etc.

[cajim]

“This prevents the anti HbS to achieve functional titers against the minute remnants of true virus even after successful 99.9999% "clearance" in many cases.”

--What if the virus is not cleared by HBsAB at all but by something else, from the treatment?

Huge numbers often appear so frighteningly boggling that people give up in their willingness to understand new facts and choose to stay in their comfort zone of old data.  When considering different schools of thought it is unfair to demand an explanation by one of the assumptions of another.  Example, the origin of man:  In order to account for how a one-cell organism can evolve into the billions of living entities on earth, humans included,  Darwin’s Evolution theory had to evoke some mind-boggling numbers indeed!  Yet nobody as far as I know demands the Christian belief to account for the numbers created by Darwin’s theory.

[zellyf]

Just to clarify one point:

Even if you clear the surface antigen it is a good idea to ask about antivirals while undergoing chemo.  I think you can reactivate your HBV.

[zellyf]

"Example, the origin of man:  In order to account for how a one-cell organism can evolve into the billions of living entities on earth, humans included,  Darwin’s Evolution theory had to evoke some mind-boggling numbers indeed!  Yet nobody as far as I know demands the Christian belief to account for the numbers created by Darwin’s theory."

This is a fallacious argument.  It has no bearing on what Steven has introduced and in fact, does not speak to it at all.  Let's hash out the specifics of this treatment so we can make decisions about our health.  Let's not divert into philosophical discussions. More science and less voodoo.

[cajim]

zellyf, take a deep breath, calm down.  This is just a discussion, a sharing of views.  We are still friends, right?

[stevenNYer]

The C forum have alcohol, we have cure...hahahahaha.

Zelly, thanks for the comment on chemo and antivirals.  Those interested in this subject can check out this thread:

http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Hepatitis-B/Core-Antibody-related-question-from-Apache1/show/949434

Cajim, you can’t have it both ways.  The “practicing doctor” (PD) which you referred to is using Western Medicine (WM) to claim a cure.  If you start with WM, that PD has to satisfy WM questions.  WM discovered HBV, dissected it, mapped out its parts, and learned how it replicates.  So on the contrary your statement, this is new, on the cutting edge data (or we won’t even have antivirals).  Without WM, HBV will still be called something like “Yellow Flu”, because you just see people getting real sick (when they unknowingly reached end stage liver disease due to HBV), turn yellow (jaundice), and die.  WM is feeling real good now.  From such advances and arrogance, then…..WM admits defeat (???) and say despite all we know, HBV is still smarter than us.  Could it be that arrogant, know-it-all, doctors just don’t exist in WM?  ;)   Then PD claimed a cure using WM concepts (surface antigen, antibody, core antibody) without explaining obvious problem and just say that “it’s works” and it’s new thinking.  This is why this is not acceptable.

I pointed out the 2001 is like the Dark ages for HBV.  Many many WM doctors didn’t know what to do with HBV.  Many WM treating institutions made mistake reading HBV labs.  The markers confused them.  Diagnoses were missed.  They tried to rewrite the markers and it made it more confusing.  This is not an assumption, this is a fact.  Couple this with the fact that there is no explanation for HbcAb being treated negative in PD’s cure labs, is it not appropriate to conclude the labs were shady.  The problem is that PD already used these labs to see the cure.  Once it becomes public record, you can’t take it back.  So perhaps it’s easier to say, “it works because it works”.  Because the alternative takes a serious bio-immunology explanation.

As such, if PD can’t answer MY simple question, how can they answer peer review from people like HR.  Because people like HR is like the beach and I am like a spec of sand.

Why Am I taking some much time to answer this?  Because I realized any false hope can be devastating, especially for the newly diagnosed.

[zellyf]

I'm not particularly worked up, cajim.  Just pointing out the error in your argument. I don't think my language was any stronger than you continually calling us skeptics "brain washed" and weak willed.

[cajim]

“Cajim, you can’t have it both ways.  The “practicing doctor” (PD) which you referred to is using Western Medicine (WM) to claim a cure.  If you start with WM, that PD has to satisfy WM questions.”

--The only WM PD has used in his treatment is the vaccination of cured patients who still have HBsAB negative.  As it is already acknowledged elsewhere, WM is superior in ER, surgery, vaccination and diagnosis.  To use WM diagnosis to show results that WM can relate to and to say the treatment use WM to cure Hep B patients are different things.

“WM discovered HBV, dissected it, mapped out its parts, and learned how it replicates.  So on the contrary your statement, this is new, on the cutting edge data (or we won’t even have antivirals).  Without WM, HBV will still be called something like “Yellow Flu”, because you just see people getting real sick (when they unknowingly reached end stage liver disease due to HBV), turn yellow (jaundice), and die.  WM is feeling real good now.  From such advances and arrogance, then…..WM admits defeat (???) and say despite all we know, HBV is still smarter than us.  Could it be that arrogant, know-it-all, doctors just don’t exist in WM?  ;)   Then PD claimed a cure using WM concepts (surface antigen, antibody, core antibody) without explaining obvious problem and just say that “it’s works” and it’s new thinking.  This is why this is not acceptable.”

--Because of my inability to translate more information due to my lack of free time, I inadvertently may have presented PD as making claims without support.  Hopefully I will gradually translate more.  Indeed you are right that Chinese medicine tends to group diseases while WM freely individualizes disease which is why a western medical student spends years in school to concentrate on a compartmentalized bit of medicine to avoid spending all his life in school.  One school of Chinese medicine groups all disease to 18 categories and its doctors can respond to all 18 categories of diseases rather than having to say, “That is not my specilty.”

”I pointed out the 2001 is like the Dark ages for HBV.  Many many WM doctors didn’t know what to do with HBV.  Many WM treating institutions made mistake reading HBV labs.  The markers confused them.  Diagnoses were missed.  They tried to rewrite the markers and it made it more confusing.  This is not an assumption, this is a fact.  Couple this with the fact that there is no explanation for HbcAb being treated negative in PD’s cure labs, is it not appropriate to conclude the labs were shady.  The problem is that PD already used these labs to see the cure.  Once it becomes public record, you can’t take it back.  So perhaps it’s easier to say, “it works because it works”.  Because the alternative takes a serious bio-immunology explanation.”

--There is this interesting argument that if a doctor uses lab testing to demonstrate treatment results, then his treatment must be originally from WM.  If a western doctor uses “jaundice” to describe a liver patient, must he also be originally from Chinese medicine, which used this description thousands of years ago?

”As such, if PD can’t answer MY simple question, how can they answer peer review from people like HR.  Because people like HR is like the beach and I am like a spec of sand.”

--I don’t think PD cannot answer your question or questions from HR.  Surely you see that to address questions from a framework by another framework takes some adjustments?  Do you think people like HR can use western medicine to answer questions from PD regarding Yin-Yang balance, acupuncture points, etc.?

”Why Am I taking some much time to answer this?  Because I realized any false hope can be devastating, especially for the newly diagnosed.”

--If the lab sheets came from a western doctor you probably would not consider them false hope, which is understandable because you are more familiar with western medicine than Chinese medicine.  I guess the best judge is time:  If the treatment from PD is real, it will continue to cure HBVers; if not it will disappear.

[cajim]

"I'm not particularly worked up, cajim.  Just pointing out the error in your argument. I don't think my language was any stronger than you continually calling us skeptics "brain washed" and weak willed."

I never intended to call anybody any names.  I just tried to share some information which might not be known to this community yet.  Maybe we should concentrate on the issues and leave emotions aside.

zellyf, I owe you so much in my HBV education.  Why would I call names?  Please forgive me if I presented something never intended.

[stevenNYer]

"If the lab sheets came from a western doctor you probably would not consider them false hope"

I would still be skeptical.  Any stories of new treatment or cure, I am interested in.  I will evaluate it with what I known facts.  And for me to accept it, it has to make sense and be consistent with proven science.

I am hopeful of Alinia's anti HBV effect.  I was happy to learn from the NY Times and Hepb org that scientist in Singapore are being hopeful of developing a cure for HepB.  But both of these are potentials.  They need time to further investigate.  But nobody is screaming cure yet.  

Also I do have lots of experience with Chinese / herbal medicine.  I've seen things first hand and have direct experience.  The rest, I'll just take the 5th.

And with this I will let the issue rest as I think I have demonstrated my point of view and to give balance to a claim of cure for chronic HBV at this time.  

[zellyf]

Done, cajim.  Its hard to get tone over the internet so I'm always happy to assume no insult was intended.

[cajim]

Some friends here are uncomfortable calling this treatment a cure, then consider it a treatment under evaluation.  Either way I believe it worthwhile keeping an eye on it because deep inside every HBVer will be overjoyed when a cure is found.

For those interested, let us look at the various treatments in terms of toxicity.

Western medicine, take Baraclude as an example, is very exact and accurate in drug components and drug goal of controlling virus replication.  It is also very clear in stating possible side-effects and toxicity on the label.  By so doing the patient is responsible for all adverse consequences of taking the drug.

Layman Chinese medicine also doesn’t hesitate to use poison to attack poison.  For example, the treatment in question uses poison from plants and animals to attack the virus but more than two-thirds of the 22 components of prescription 3 actually are used not to kill but to nurture and protect liver, kidney, spleen, stomach, intestines and other organs from the poison of the few components in the prescription.  Why?  Because Chinese medicine believes that the body is a connected whole, illness comes in when balance is broken, and to cure is to restore balance, not just dealing with the affected organ.

Palace-style Chinese medicine on the other hand tries to avoid any toxicity as much as possible, even at the cost of a slower cure.  Why?  Because when you treat the king, you may be beheaded even if you have cured the king but in the process you have made him uncomfortable with one or two side-effects.  How lucky are the western doctors!  They never have to be responsible for the side-effects of drugs.  2007 guideline and clearly printed label are their protection.

[cajim]

More cases posted (http://www.medhelp.org/personal_pages/user/900408).

Age range: 11 to 61,
Disease range:  From asymptomic healthy to long time chronic hep with cirrhosis, ascites, enlarged spleen,
Shared result:  HBsAg (-)

[cajim]

Patient dos and don’ts according to this treatment:

1.  No alcohol;
2.  Don’t eat meat from male animals used for reproduction, spicy, greasy, or cold foods;
3.  Don’t overeat, don’t sleep right after eating, avoid irregular life styles;
4.  Eat balanced foods that are nutritious, light, and easy to be digested, e.g. bean foods, dairy foods, foods rich in rough fiber, including bean curd, bean sprouts, milk, sheep milk, fruits, vegetables, chickens, ducks, fish, etc.
5.  Adjust mental status:  unfairness exists in society; you hurt your liver if you get angry.  Learn the “principle of the medium”; focus your vision at the horizon, not near yourself.  Life is short; nothing is more valuable than life and health.  However hard a thing is to bear, back one step, the sky is high, the ground is wide; however troublesome a question is, calm down and calm down and it will be not troublesome.  When you can not be upset when you should be upset; when you can not be blameful when you should be blameful; when you can not be angry when you should be angry; that’s when you will be cured.
6.  Pay attention to your life style:  early to rise, early to bed; regular daily schedule; avoid burning the midnight oil; avoid heavy physical labor;  stick to early exercises, evening walks, appropriate activities; better if you can practice tai-ji or similar air exercises.

[HelpPlease98]

Hi Cajim Please let me know how i find them(the place to get these treatment).I 'm in southern California with HBV eAntigen -.
Thanks  alot.

[cajim]

The treatment is offered in China, not in US.  As cautioned by others here, much understanding is needed before jumping into anything.

The treatment was developed by a Chinese herbal doctor whose prescriptions consist of plants and animals not understood or used in Western medicine.  Unlike Western drugs, this doctor's prescriptions were not pre-made into pills sold in pharmacies.

You mentioned you are HBeAg (-）， how about other readings?

[cajim]

Here are what components of the prescriptions look like (http://www.medhelp.org/personal_pages/user/900408).

[cajim]

More cases posted (http://www.medhelp.org/personal_pages/user/900408).

Why are the HBV viruses so hard to get at using western drugs and other herbal treatments?

PD:  The virus is in the blood but more in the liver cells where water-soluble drugs and herbs have difficulty entering to their clearing.

[cajim]

More cases posted (http://www.medhelp.org/personal_pages/user/900408).

Sick liver relates to bad temper and bad temper hurts the sick liver.

PD:  Four points of psychological life preservation:

Point 1: Be kind.  Kindness is nutrition for psychological life preservation.  Kindness at heart will make self happy because others are happy, will make one happy to support the poor and help those in difficulty, thereby feeling fulfilled at heart.  Kindness at heart will make one treat others with kindness, will make one be happy to live with others in harmony, thereby feeling constant joy at heart.  Kindness at heart will make one open-minded, willing to open self to others, thereby always feeling relaxed at heart.  All in all, kindness at heart will maintain a calm and peaceful psychological state which will adjust blood flow and excitement level to the optimal level thereby increasing immunity strength against diseases.  That is why being kind is an indispensable high-ranking nutrition ingredient in psychological life preservation.

[cajim]

Point 2:  Be tolerant.  Tolerance is an adjustment valve in psychological life preservation.  In social human interactions, it is unavoidable to be misunderstood, unfairly treated, and be wronged.  In face of these situations, the smartest choice is learning to be tolerant.  Tolerance is a wonderful psychological quality.  It not only embodies understanding and forgiveness but also demonstrates endurance, broadmindedness, strength and power.  A person with no tolerance who is hypercritical of others inevitably is often in a tense psychological state resulting in nervous excitation, vasoconstriction, high blood pressure, and a psychological-physiological vicious cycle.  Learn to be tolerant and one will be strict with self but tolerant to others.  It is like installing a psychological safety valve for self.

[jhakas]

cant comment on the authencity but .. something to think :
http://keelynet.com/biology/hepatits.htm

[jhakas]

Any info on pegasys ?

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/139189.php

[cajim]

Good info.  Thanks.

[cajim]

Point 3:  Be optimistic.  Optimism is the eternal-youth pill of psychological life preservation.  Optimism is a positive upward character and mental state that can stimulate one's vitality and potentiality to resolve conflicts and overcome obstacles.  Pessimism is a negative downward character and mental state that causes one to be sad, frustrated, painful, and causes one to be at a loss what to do in front of difficulties thereby affecting one's physical and mental health.

[cajim]

Point 4:  Disinterest in fame and wealth.  This disinterest is an immunity in psychological life preservation.  This disinterest plays low all desires and stops fame and wealth seeking.  Zhang Zhidong of end Qing Dynisty said in his famous life preservation sayings, "No request is the calming method."  Modern famous writer Bing Xing also said, "When one reaches state of no request, he has reached the highest quality."  This says that the disinterest is a sublime mental state, a position in human pursuit that is at a higher level.  With such a state of disinterest, one would not follow the tides of worldly pursuit or seek worldly fame and wealth; one not be very happy for getting worldly things or be very sad for losing them; one would not be complaining about things on this world or compete and be jealous against others.  A disinterest mental state will keep one in a peaceful state, maintain a calm heart thereby make all factors harmful to physical and mental health disappear.

[anxietyor]

thanks for the positive attitude
to be honest with you this debate will never end. I ve been reading over a hundred of posts that you guys shared
I believe there is a cure
I will try anything that I believe wont hurt me
if it has a one percent chance to cure me and NO risks to hurt me besises wasting money; then I ll go for it;and Im not rich; but health comes before everything else
since hbv my life made a uturn
I do believe that being positive;optimistic; kind and tolerant are the pillards of a healthy lifestyle. and Science is making progress now in linking stress to the immune system,your mood and your physical shape etc...
There is a cure its somewhere out there they just have to find it,or maybe we have to be more open minded and try things for a better TOMORROW
if its not ours it will be for others.

[biobrain]

Have a nice day,

Thanks for sharing this valuable information.

Where from I can access this treatment? Please provide the detailed information / web link (if any) I am serious to start this treatment.  

Regards

[biobrain]

Any answer to my questions?

[cajim]

Due to the fact that I myself do not have first-hand knowledge yet about this treatment, please understand my unwillingness to provide the link publicly.  If you insist on having the link and are willing to take responsibility for your choice of treatment, please send me a private message which I will reply with the link.

Best.

[bram44]

First of all thanks for responding. You have been quiet for a while. Newbies like me benefit from your posts.

With same disclaimer, could you please post it ?

BTW - Welcome back - and please be active.

[cajim]

With same disclaimer, could you please post it ?

--If interested, please send me a private message.

You have been quiet for a while.

--My quietness is due to A) my discomfort at pushing fellow HBVers to piles of chemicals when 1) they only control not cure; 2) resistance is a problem down the road; 3) even if chemists can concoct new chemicals fast enough that replace the ones that become useless due to resistance, damage due to toxicity is already done to the body, particularly to the liver; 4) even though these chemicals produce beautiful lab results, case after case of tearful, painful, desperate and impoverished accounts by HBVers themselves or their families in Chinese HBV site so sadly show that normal ALT, AST, HBV-DNA, even negative HBsAg mean little to patients of years of chemical consumption who have to face cirrhosis, ascites, HCC when they are physically, emotionally and financially drained to such weakness that "No treatment at all," some of them say, "may give them a better chance." and B) my patient waiting for facts that my fact-seeking, objective HBV friends Steven, zellyf, bberry, etc. so need to be convinced, facts that once available will change my silence into a long bubbling of words whose comprehension will require the aid of A) B) C) and 1) 2) 3).

Best.

[bram44]

I hear you and understand. No one knows for sure the damage done with treatment and damage if one is not treated.

Having two schools of thought is certainly a great thing.

As you mentioned these drugs are not cheap and potential damage is unknown. The very thought this is a lifetime commitment is daunting.

Please do keep an eye on this forum and who knows one day we will have Walgreens taking our DNA and produce new "liver" and implant it over drive through - thus making all the drugs invalid :)

[Chic2000]

Please post info. on how to get this treatment. Any contact info?

[cajim]

If you insist on having the link and are willing to take responsibility for your choice of treatment, please send me a private message which I will reply with the link.

[bram44]

Anyone knew what this medicine is (seems the article is dated 1999) ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/299271.stm

[cajim]

Fascinating info.  Thanks.

Google "Thiagrajan hepatitis b" and you will find more.

When Dr. Baruch Blumberg worked with the Indian researchers, the results indicated that extracts were not as effective as the original plants.

[bram44]

I will try to get more information on this "keezharnelli" medicine.

http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/mar/18heptb.htm

I am on Tenofavir treatment now, after 3 months will get myself tested for change in viral load etc... Then I will start this (of course need to inform my doctor). May be I will stop viral treatment and start this.

[cajim]

From the autobiography of Dr. Baruch Blumberg:

Plant studies
In the late 1980s another project began to dominate the research in our laboratory. Would it be possible to devise a therapy for the millions of patients with HBV including many of the approximately 375 million HBV carriers in the world? The concept of rationale design for drug discovery was (and is) in vogue at this time; it is an approach that is based on a molecular understanding of the disease process and the identification of biochemical or biophysical processes of disease at which a medication could be designed to interfere to abort or eliminate the disease. However, most drugs in use have been derived from already existing "natural" chemicals found in plants or other biological material. I decided to look for a medication in the plants that had been used in indigenous medical systems – folk medicine – to see if any of these contained constituents that were anti-viral. My colleagues and I consulted the many texts on folk uses and made a list of all the plants that had been used to treat yellow jaundice, the most obvious symptom of hepatitis. Jaundice can be the result of many diseases, for example, hemoglobinopathies, but probably the most common cause worldwide would be viral, including HBV infection. This resulted in a list of over a thousand plant species. I then sorted the list by the country where the folk medicine was used and identified plant genera that were used on three or more continents or geographic regions. This decreased the number of candidate plants and we finally chose a small weedy plant, Phyllanthus amarus for further study. Phyllanthus species were widely used in India, China, elsewhere in Asia, South and North America, Africa, and in the Pacific for the folk treatment of jaundice. It was also selected because P.S. Venkateswaran, the natural products chemist in our laboratory had known of this plant in his youth. There were also other plants on the short list with which a more limited series of studies were done.

During the next five years or so we collected many of these plants in their native habitat. This resulted in some interesting field trips. I had already engaged in many trips during our research on the distribution of polymorphic traits and in the HBV studies. But this was different. Medical field research is usually done indoors, observing patients in hospitals and populations in villages, towns, and cities. Collecting plants meant that one was outdoors, in the field, forest and jungle; and I enjoyed that very much. There were collecting trips to India (including a fascinating few days in the jungles of the Western Ghats in Karnataka), Nepal (including a long trek in the Himalayas ), England, France, Ireland, Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, and Trinidad and Tobago. There were also extensive collections in the United States ; in California, Colorado, Florida, Hawaii, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Texas, Vermont, Virginia, and Washington. I usually did these trips when I was traveling for other reasons, to attend meetings or consultations, in order to minimize travel costs.

This research required the establishment of a whole new range of activities in the laboratory. We added a natural products chemist, and a botanist, and developed a series of tests to determine if the medication had any effect on the replication mechanism of HBV. There were no established laboratory animals that could be infected with HBV nor was there then an adequate tissue culture system. However, woodchucks or groundhogs, (Marmota monax) are infected with woodchuck hepatitis virus (WHV) that is very similar to HBV. Hence, we developed skills for trapping and testing woodchucks and raising them in a laboratory setting, a very complicated and difficult operation.

Professor S.P. Thyagarajan at the University of Madras, India had done a controlled clinical trail on the effectiveness of Phyllanthus amarus on the HBV levels in carriers. We helped in the testing of the serum samples from the study and the analysis of the data. This first trial showed an impressive clinical effect. However, subsequent trials in other Asian locations did not confirm the results. We continued in our efforts to isolate the active principles and several other laboratories and commercial companies worldwide have continued research on the preclinical science. Although the plant continues to be used widely in India and elsewhere it has not (at least so far) resulted in a tested and widely used proprietary medication. Research continues and there may be one day another medication to add to the treatment of HBV and other viruses.

[cajim]

"I am on Tenofavir treatment now, after 3 months will get myself tested for change in viral load etc... Then I will start this (of course need to inform my doctor). May be I will stop viral treatment and start this."

--3 months of  Tenofavir needs to reduce viral load to UND to be considered effective.  After that if you decide to stop Tenofavir, you need to be very careful about flares.  Also if you started out with HBeAg(-) then there is no clear end point for Tenofavir.  How confident are you of the ability of this treatment to continue to suppress viral load or get rid of the virus?

[bram44]

Before going on treatment this is one question I asked my doctor. I feel ok now and my family is not affected with me. So why can't I be monitored, instead of going on treatment.

He mentioned, I have not so high viral load and a year of treatment should get me HBsAg negative (yes he said negative). I did show him www.hepb.org guidelines and various drug results, which put the changes between 5-10%.

He said HBeAg(-) and HBeAb(+), the loss of DNA to UND, could potentially avoid a flare in future. He also mentioned given my geno type is "A" - he will monitor and switch to LAM when the DNA is going up in future. His plan was to knock of the virus count and monitor it for future. He said potentially (theoretically) I may have to be on meds, but practically I could off of it in a year.

Though it was not convincing, I took this route. I am not confident - but hopeful.

[cajim]

1.  As patients, we can only hope our doctors are wise, knowledgeable, and caring.  Let us hope his statements of "get me HBsAg negative" and "HBeAg(-) and HBeAb(+), the loss of DNA to UND, could potentially avoid a flare in future" are based on facts.

2.  What is his reason for switching to LAM?  Cost?

3.  Are you still going to try Dr. Thyagarajan's treatment?  If yes, it would be helpful to others to keep a detailed record of your experience.

Best wishes.

[stefen143]

i have viewed this very long post which tackles mostly regarding the debate between the eastern alternative medicine vs the conventional western medicine.

i am just at lost through the discussions; which left me asking WHAT IS THE TREATMENT this thread is talking about. Is it the phyllantus amarus?

[shellywinters]

I guess I'll have to share lab results.

1/6/09 Over 10 Million, 3/06/09 300 thousand

1/10/10 1,230 and then 8/06 only 252

Never took meds, just a bunch of herbs, teas, vitamins/minerals and amino acids. I refused to except I could not get rid of this as I am considered chronic and my body could not clear it on its own.

oh and to Stefen, phyllantus nuri works better also known as Chanca Piedra

My doctor said anything under 29 is considered negative and I fully expect to receive a negative test result by the New Year!

I guess what it really comes down to is what you believe. If you really buy into you are going to have it for the rest of your life then you will, you wont even research other ways to clear this. The first challenge is opening your mind to the possibility that you can. The perception that herbs and other natural remedies are not sufficient is formed by the lack of availability of data easily accessible showing its effectiveness and that may be no accident.


I spent what seems like a lifetime researching natural remedies for HB. I tried them all! Chinese herbs, Amazonian teas, Japanese mushrooms, sugar reduced and raw veggie increased diets.

If you look in the right places you will find medical journals where research, tests and studies have been done with the above mentioned methods. It workded.

[cajim]

WHAT IS THE TREATMENT this thread is talking about. Is it the phyllantus amarus?

--No.  It is a layman-style Chinese medicine whose 11 months course I went through.  Details here:

http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Hepatitis-B/How-I-manage-my-HBV/show/1337595

[shellywinters]

Antioxidant Therapy. As with other diseases related to inflammation and tissue damage, oxidative stress is a key mediator that continues and magnifies the ongoing disease process. The livers of people who have hepatitis show reduced levels of antioxidants, which are consumed in an effort to protect the liver. According to a report in the June 1998 issue of the Journal of Clinical Gastroenterology, investigators showed that nutritional antioxidants are potential therapeutic agents for diseases such as hepatitis. Other investigators reported at the same time that oxidative stress (free-radical damage) is often seen in hepatitis B and may contribute to the emergence of hepatocellular carcinoma, seen in patients after years of chronic liver inflammation. The study stated that antioxidants that down-regulate oxidative damage may be a useful complement to specific antiviral drugs in the therapy of viral diseases.
In a related study, vitamin E (alpha-tocopherol) was reported in a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study to be a successful adjunct approach when combined with alpha-interferon therapy in the treatment of hepatitis because of its strong antioxidant activity (von Herbay A et al 1997).
Selenium. The protective role of selenium against HBV was reported in 1997 in the journal Biological Trace Element Research. The study reported that, in areas of China with high rates of hepatitis B and primary liver cancer, high levels of dietary selenium reduced the incidence of liver cancer and hepatitis B infection. In a 4-year trial of 130,471 people, those who were given selenium-spiked table salt showed a 35.1 percent reduction in primary liver cancer, compared with the group who received salt without selenium. In the same journal report, another clinical study of 226 people who tested positive for hepatitis B showed that taking a 200-mcg tablet a day of selenium reduced the incidence of primary liver cancer to zero. Upon cessation of selenium supplementation, the incidence of primary liver cancer began to rise. The study seems to indicate that taking selenium on a continuous basis is beneficial to people who have viral hepatitis (Yu SY et al 1997).
These human trials have been duplicated in animal studies. The animal studies showed that selenium supplementation reduced hepatitis B infection by 77.2 percent and precancerous liver lesions by 75.8 percent.
Another study in the Journal of Trace Elements and Medical Biology reported the role of trace minerals in diseases such as liver disease and hepatitis. The report indicates that, while there is still some debate regarding the specific role of trace minerals, minerals such as selenium and zinc are of benefit to those who have diseases such as hepatitis (Loguercio C et al 1997).
A 3-year study of 20,847 people investigated whether supplementation with sodium selenite could prevent hepatitis B. The researchers concluded that: "The incidence of virus hepatitis infection in the test population was significantly lower than that of controls provided with no selenium" (Yu SY et al 1989).

[shellywinters]

I soooo cant wait for my results to be faxed in!!!!

from over Ten Million down to only 252 in a year. 97% of the reduction happend in 2 months thanks to the Chanca Piedra!

[shellywinters]

I have the results and tried to post them but PDF was the only format I could get the copy machine at work to send the scan out to.


1st one says 1-7-2009
  Hepatitis B Virus PCR 10,400,000
HBV RNA LOG 10                          7.02

2nd 3-6-2009
Hepatitis B Virus PCR  358,000
HBV RNA LOG 10                       5.55

3rd 7-30-2010

Hepatitis B Virus PCR     254
HBV RNA LOG 10                  2.40

I had a test in April 2010 that was 1,200.
That was at the Liver specialist at UCLA medical center in Westwood
That is the test that shows I am still not making the antibodies to clear this.
He did not give me the RNA Log number via e-mail with the VL#.

I am requested those results via e-mail from the Doctor but he is out till OCt 10th

I have never heard them mention anything about fibrosis and I was always told according to enzyme levels, my liver is in perfect health. I have only had elevated enzyme levels once in Aug of 2008 before I found out about HB and that was why they wanted to test for HB/C & A.  I was sick and went in for blood work and forgot to mention all the Tylenol and hard core pain killers I took to rid the sever body aches from the flue that week prior. All blood tests prior even when I was in ICU for heart issues, they never detected liver abnormalities.

[stef2011]

you have to consider we are not all the same, nitazoxanide cleared hbsag from 25% of 8 hbe negative patients by 1 year and from 3 hbe pos in 2 years but i'd never say ntz clears hbsag, i'd say it might because what works for one person doesn t work for all

the same for tenofovir, entecavir they clear hbsag on about 5-8%, not from all

same thing from phyllanthus it might have wroked for you only that much, it makes no sense to say if it worked for me it is proof it will work to others.we might try it and see in combo

it is also very important to know if you were hbe positive or negative because phyllanthus niuri and urinaria have different activities, i don t remember which one but one of the two works on hbe pos but not on hbe neg

[ono8ono]

what you said:
The power of interest groups: if Hep B can be so easily cured, who are there to buy the tons of ADV, ETV, TDF, etc.? who are there to pay to visit the western doctors? who are there to sell all they have and then borrow a lot to pay surgeons for liver transplantation and all the procedures associated with the surgery for 1-year-or-so's additional living, in poverty and agony?

I totally agreed! Just follow the money; big phar are in for big profit only; they don't care about the cure! cure mean no more incoming stream of profit!! No more business! It is not just phar, think about all the companies making all the test tubes, bottles, equipment, needles etc etc; they all depends on NO cure!  

[hbv]

Research on Phyllanthus niruri: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T6R-4SDX2XS-2&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F15%2F2008&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1488874883&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=c7d01916f9c351863110ee2b307b6012&searchtype=a

[hbv]

it's paid :(

[shellywinters]

You seem very "know it all" and yet you mentioned in another post that vitamins were useless when in fact they are extremely important in the protection of the liver against oxidative damage.  I have read many of your posts and I give you credit for knowing a great deal but certainly not all.

You keep shutting down phyllanthus but have you tried it? If so which species? It makes a big difference. How frequently did you use it? IT makes sense to say that “it might have worked for you only that much, it makes no sense to say if it worked for me it is proof it will work to others”

This forum is the place to relate success stories and the treatment used. Its up to the reader to decide what is right for them With that said, phyllanthus has bee repeated scientifically studied and research and chances are it will work for all of people. My opinion is that when take correctly as I have recommended it will work. Taken with the multivitamins containing 400 IU of Vitamin E, 2,000 IU of Vitamin D 200 micro grams of Selenium and 200 grams of Alpha Lipoic acid and viral load will come down as will liver enzymes regardless of Chronic or non chronic status.

I know I tend to sound harsh in my replies so I say to you it is not my intention to undermine your integrity nor your valuable influence here. Keep in mind you do have influence here as I see a lot of you comments, your relies to questions and helpful suggestions. Remember you are influencing others opinions and ideas that may influence their health negatively or positively.

[stef2011]

well my success story is hbsag decresing hbvdna und and finrosis regression from 16.3 to 13.9 in less than a year (12kpa is the cirrhosis cutoff), of coruse followed by one the most expert researcher in the world about hbv (not a doctor), what should i use chemical vitamins for since i have a balanced diet and normal level except vit D but there is nothing to make it normal (sun or megadoses)

[stef2011]

i am spreading this because i haven t seen anybody here reaching the result of decreasing hbsag fast, and to tell you the truth this will be my last post talking to you, i really don t like the way you speak and also the little scientific knowledge of hbv illness you have, i am sure i have studies much more than you

[shellywinters]

Vitamin D is extreemly important I hope you looking to taking it. I have gathered some medical journals from the US National Institute of Health. It says alot that you are un aware of the benifits of Vitamin D when cirrohsis is present. Also please look into the selenium AND ALpha Lipoic acid. It will further reduce your finrosis regression.

I do wish you the best.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17222588
Clin Gastroenterol Hepatol. 2007 Apr;5(4):513-20. Epub 2007 Jan 10.
Vitamin D and parathyroid hormone in outpatients with noncholestatic chronic liver disease.
Fisher L, Fisher A.
Department of Gastroenterology, Canberra Hospital, ACT, Australia. ***@****
Abstract
BACKGROUND & AIMS: The liver plays a central role in vitamin D metabolism. Our aim was to determine the prevalence and type of vitamin D-parathyroid hormone (PTH) disturbance in ambulatory patients with noncholestatic chronic liver disease (CLD) and its relationship with disease severity and liver function.
METHODS: We studied 100 consecutive outpatients (63 men, 37 women; mean age, 49.0 +/- 12.1 [SD] y) with noncholestatic CLD caused by alcohol (n = 40), hepatitis C (n = 38), hepatitis B (n = 12), autoimmune hepatitis (n = 4), hemochromatosis (n = 4), and nonalcoholic steatohepatitis (n = 2); 51 patients had cirrhosis. Serum concentrations of 25-hydroxyvitamin D (25[OH]D), PTH, calcium, phosphate, magnesium, creatinine, and liver function tests were determined.
RESULTS: Serum 25(OH)D levels were inadequate in 91 patients: vitamin D deficiency (6.8 pmol/L) was present in 16 patients. The prevalence of vitamin D deficiency was significantly higher in cirrhotic vs noncirrhotic patients (86.3% vs 49.0%; P = .0001). In Child-Pugh class C patients, 25(OH)D levels were significantly lower than in class A patients (22.7 +/- 10.0 nmol/L vs 45.8 +/- 16.8 nmol/L; P < .001). Serum 25(OH)D independently correlated with international normalized ratio (negatively; P = .018) and serum albumin (positively; P = .007). Serum 25(OH)D levels of less than 25 nmol/L predicted coagulopathy, hyperbilirubinemia, hypoalbuminemia, increased alkaline phosphatase, and anemia and thrombocytopenia.
CONCLUSIONS: Vitamin D inadequacy is common in noncholestatic CLD and correlates with disease severity, but secondary hyperparathyroidism is relatively infrequent. Management of CLD should include assessment of vitamin D status in all patients and replacement when necessary.




http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/73950
Absorption, hydroxylation, and excretion of vitamin D3 in primary biliary cirrhosis.
Krawitt EL, Grundman MJ, Mawer EB.
Abstract
Oral vitamin D3 was poorly absorbed by 4 out of 6 patients with primary biliary cirrhosis; absorption was negatively correlated with faecal fat excretion. 25-hydroxylation of vitamin D3 given by mouth or intravenously was not impaired in the patients compared with controls of similar vitamin-D nutritional status. Urinary radioactivity derived from the intravenous dose of vitamin D3 was significantly greater in patients than in controls and was positively correlated with the serum-bilirubin concentration. Excretion in the urine may lead to loss of administered and endogenous vitamin D and thus contribute to vitamin-D deficiency in patients with primary biliary cirrhosis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18290722
J Bone Miner Res. 2007 Dec;22 Suppl 2:V50-4.
Vitamin D insufficiency/deficiency in gastrointestinal disorders.
Bikle DD.
Department of Medicine, Veterans Affairs Medical Center, University of California, San Francisco, California, USA.
Abstract
Vitamin D and calcium are critical for skeletal health. Their absorption from the intestine is negatively impacted by a number of gastrointestinal diseases and surgical procedures, leading to osteoporosis and/or osteomalacia. Diseases of the liver can impact the metabolism of vitamin D to its circulating form, 25(OH)D, as well as the production of carrier proteins, albumin and vitamin D-binding protein, that may alter the delivery of 25(OH)D and its active metabolite 1,25(OH)(2)D to target tissues, including the skeleton, again leading to bone disease. The clinician evaluating a patient with apparent osteoporosis and vitamin D deficiency/ insufficiency needs to consider a gastrointestinal etiology. Similarly, the clinician evaluating a patient with a gastrointestinal disorder needs to evaluate that patient for vitamin D deficiency and bone disease. Treatment involves adequate vitamin D and calcium supplementation to achieve normal serum 25(OH)D, PTH, and serum and urine calcium levels.
PMID: 18290722 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[stef2011]

i am not taking anymore because it damaged kidneys, 4-5000iu daily from january and vit D still low, so i disconitnue and creatinine is back normal, i will take little sun even if it didn t work eather

i have already posted all studies of immune modulation and trails about vit D and hbv and hcv but it can damage kidneys so i stopped it

all vitamins, zinc, selenimum are kept optimum ranges by diet, at the end of this month i should already be out of 12kpa so no need to change anything, it is all a matter of balance not too much and not too little but the main thing is hbvdna und, alt<20 and possibly hbsag reduction which equals to immune system response increase

[shellywinters]

I do hope there is a way that you can get your VD3 levels up, the latest research shows how crucial it is just to keep people without our condition healthy. Its a vitamin that is crucial to human health. That is why its the only vitamin human can synthesize on their own with sun exposure.

[LilHope2010]

Hepatitis b can be cure by Ramdev's medicines

[stef2011]

hbv can be eradicated (hbsag negative and hbsab>1000miu/ml) by interferon+antivirals as a member who did this combo just posted
in this forum i will probably be the next to make this combo if i don t clear within 2011, this combo is not used often but it has the highest clear rates

[hepa114]

Can you elaborate more? you are clamming H-B can we cured by using ramdev’s medicine, what is the authenticity of your statement? Did you tested these medicine on yourself or on someone you know or just heard about this? Please post the lab test results before and after treatment. Also explain more about the treatment? What kind of medicine he give? Do they have any scientific proof?