Alternative meds and transaminase levels v.2

Since my previous post on this issue was answered by people hung up for some unknown reason on the hemoglobin/Boceprevir trial issue, which has nothing to do with the thread query, I'm posting it again in the hope (forlorn?) of at last getting some help with this.

I'm pretty freaked out by what's going on with my transaminases since starting the alt meds, so if someone doesn't help me out with this soon I'm gonna start drinking red wine again and really screw up my liver, just to teach all the wise guys out there a lesson. So there. Yeahhh [Edward G. Robinson sneer through clenched teeth holding fat cigar].

For the past two months I've been taking four alternative medicines (that's what the USG calls 'em, so if anyone doesn't like it they can argue with the feds, which will get them nowhere): alpha-lipoic acid, Siliphos (silybin conjugated with phosphatidylcholine), polyenyl-phosphatidylcholine, and Vitamin E. These are all reputed to have an antioxidant effect in the liver, which I am hoping will stop or slow down fibrosis progression. They are also things that Gauf took in his successful DYI therapy, and were recommended by HR (Hepatitis Researcher), whom we all dearly miss here. (Where are you HR when we need you?)

Anyway, the results of my self-administered anti-fibrosis formula are so far not encouraging. My transaminase scores on a blood test just before starting the meds (at a reduced dosage) were AST 71, ALT 93. After one month, they were AST 64, ALT 90, which at least is no worse. But two weeks later, after increasing to the normal dosage, they shot up to AST 99, ALT 151 (ouch!). I got scared and dropped the dosage back down to the initial reduced dosages, and, in the blood analysis of 30/12/2009 (I didn't take the meds on the morning they drew blood), got AST 70, ALT 105, which is no better than before I started them.

I'm still taking the meds but am kinda discouraged and, yes, even somewhat frightened. (I admit I scare easy.) Other people taking these and other alternative meds have succeeded in getting their transaminases down. I wonder why mine go up or stay the same. Is it just my usual infernal bad luck, or is there a more objective reason?

Any ideas on ***This Question***?

(If ya'll start in again on the hemoglobin thing I'm gonna get riled and maudlin and feelin sorry for myself, end up drinkin a lot of Argentine red, and ya'll gonna wish ya hadn't been such a bunch a smartalecks.)

M.

[_Matt_]

When trying to help my parents using an "alternative method" I realized that supplements are not the way to go. If you want to get "alpha-lipoic acid" a better & safe way, it would be to eat more green leafy vegetables like: Raw Spinach and Broccoli.

A healthy dose of "phosphatidylcholine"(PC)(choline is a constituent of it) is also in Vegetables such as Cabbage & Cauliflower, including many other foods.

"polyenyl-phosphatidylcholine"(PPC) you can also get from Vegetables like fresh Cabbage & Cauliflower.

Vitamin E is present in things like Apples, Bananas, Kiwi.

So a better way to get 4/5 of those things you mentioned would be to stop the supplements and eat or juice more of those fresh healthy foods to see if there's an improvement.

Just a suggestion, I hope it's helpful for you.

I should also suggest that you study the advantages of getting those substances from fresh, raw, clean Vegetables and Fruit instead of in supplement form... since you would also reap the benefits of other anti-oxidants, vitamins and minerals that are not present in those supplements.

[mike716]

You know, I think you're right.

[Bali05]

Sorry , accidentally hit the submit button....

OK

If you want any alternative program to have an effect you will have to follow
a healthy lifestyle.

Simple Nutritional Program:

First: Fresh , Green , Leafy Vegetables   x4/day
(cabbage,broccoli,spinach,cauliflower......)

Second: Fresh Whole Grains
(cooked oatmeal,rice,barley,corn,buckwheat....)

Proteins:
(whole eggs,roast chicken,fresh fish,beans,block cheeses
occasional red meat)

Fats:
genuine butter,olive oil

Fluids:
water,tea, non-decaff coffee, fresh vegetable juice

Avoid:
milk by the glass
white flour , white sugar
diet foods
restaurant deep fried foods , margerine
tobacco
salty foods
alcohol

Must:
high fiber foods
bowl movement every day
exercise
have fun and reduce stress

Check out Dr. Zhang. Many people have been able to lower and even normalize
their enzymes with his program.
http://www.sinomedresearch.org/
You are looking at approx. $20 to buy his book comes with 15 min phone consultation. 1 month supply of herbs approx. $300. Do 1-2 months run
LFTs see if it works for you.

Also if you can try Dr. Berkson.

I can tell you one thing and that is if you feel stressed out and running out of time
it works against you.Viral load is known to increase with stress.
Alternative medicine will not give you a quick fix and as with interferon there are
no garantees.

It took me 6 months and 100% commitment and lots of $$ to bring my ALT from 65 to 29 !

In the US alternative medicines / supplements are not regulated so you really need
someone with experience or else you end up like I did for 4 months taking lots of
pills with zero effect.


  

[mike716]

Thanks for the diet suggestions. The problem for me with many of these foods is that I have IBS (Irritable Bowel Syndrome) and they set it off. Especially stuff like raw veggies (broccoli,spinach,cauliflower). I avoid red meat and all processed foods, and eat grains and chicken and fish, already, and get exercize. But my ALT & AST just keep going up. I hoped the alt meds might help but they haven´t. Maybe I should try longer, but it´s scary when your ALT jumps from 90 to 150.

How can I keep from being stressed out with this happening to me, and no Tx in sight? I take Valium to sleep, but try not to take it in the daytime as I don´t want to get hooked on it.

I´m becoming a basket case.

Mike

[his3707]

What about taking something like juice plus. I am actually having a go with it.  I just started and take it faithfully everyday along with the other regular stuff you hear about like the milk thistle, ala, selenium, vit d-3, c-q-10, fish oil,  Now I guess I'll have to put queceritin on my list.  (I dont want to miss anything.)   Plus my pretty good diet, no drinking, smoking, Its my understanding that unless you buy organic local produce, the veggies are lacking adequate amounts of the good stuff do to over production and loaded with pesticides and chemical fertilizers.  That is why so many more people are getting sicker and sicker  (cancer and such.)   I thought you found out that your staging fiasco ended up being better?  and I thought I read that you were going to NY for some treatment.  I read all your posts and enjoy your sence of humor and I sympathize with your trouble.  I have also written in recent posts about all this confusion with what to do for yourself while waiting to treat or if you cant treat and need the alternative .   Its obviously starting to annoy me.  

[mike716]

Hi! Thanks for posting. It really picked me up to hear that you read my posts and enjoy my admittedly bizarre sense of humor (which is waning as time goes on and my health deteriorates).

I am somewhat less hysterical now that I got the lower Fibroscan score. But right after that my transaminases shot way up and have been climbing ever since. So the relief was short-lived.

And that great Boceprevir trial with no placebo arm is, for me, receding into the distance. I´ve canceled my trip to New York, at least for January. Airfares are huge, over $3,500 for R/T non-stop. And since my chances of getting my hemoglobin down to acceptable levels are slim, I´m gonna wait until the trial´s second recruitment stage in March. Right now, I´m trying desperately to deal with the hgb issue. On Monday I will get a new bloods scrip from my hep MD (who is in favor of the trial) and try a different lab, hoping that another lab may find a lower hgb score. Pretty forlorn hope, but I am grasping at straws at this point.

What´s queceritin?

Isn´t it incredible that in spite of all the forums and websites and 170 million known hepC infectees (and probably twice as many who don´t know the´re infected), there´s no real info on what to do about it, except to spend $50k on SOC?  The reason is, of course, that the big bucks for research only go where there are big bucks in profits, not to getting people well.

I´m for organizing a worldwide hepC NPO, hiring lawyers, and suing the c**p out of the hep MDs and the drug companies, as well as flooding the media with the truth about viral hepatitis.

What do you think?

Mike

[his3707]

Yes, I agree. Wish we could sue all the b*****ds. This is one thing I understand, but cant comprehend if that makes any sense about the medical universe.  I get it that they can't 'cure everything.  But why don't they just tell people about things as they find out and educate people.  Like HIV for instance.  A lot of people go to the hospitals and doctors everyday.  Just hand them an updated pamphlet.  Who needs to be screened for what and why.   But they cant even get the flu vaccine right..   US government wants to "help the people by protecting them"  why do they stay in denial.  I wouldnt call it denial, they know, I mean 9-11 happened 10 years ago and people are still getting on planes with explosives attached to them?  What makes me think they would try to educate about disease.  Now that the neglect of HCV is on the brink of really being exposed, they are scrambling.  It's gonna cost them no matter what.  at 4000 a month, who can afford it anyway right?   I think that is going to bring down the US government in the long run.  They are spending billions on a war that will never end, but our people cant afford health care or education or even food.  If I didnt believe in Jesus Christ and that no matter what man does on this earth, and that I will spend eternitiy with him when I do leave here, I would be seriously frightened.   I'll keep watching.  Good to talk straight to you.  I seem to be posting more here lately then I usually do, I ususally just lurk.  His3707

What is queceritin?  


read up on thread


http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Hepatitis-C/Natural-compound-blocks-hepatitis-C-infection/show/1139958

[Bali05]

Try Dr. Zhang

Do LFTs than take his herbs for 4 weeks and do LFTs again.

See if you respond.

If you have enough time and cash go see Berkson.

That is my advice for alternative/complementary medicine.

[mike716]

All I can say is that I wish I had your faith. In anything. I was a pessimist before this, but since being diagnosed HCV+ and having to deal directly with the medical profession and hospitals and the Ministry of Health (reminds me of the Ministry of Fear in the Graham Green novel), I've become a total cynic. Health? Pain and suffering? Who cares? It's just another way to make a buck.

I think the idea of a worldwide HCV pressure group is good. There are enough of us that we might make a difference. If we only succeeded in smacking the wrists of MDs whose hands are in the pockets of Big Pharma, we'd be helping.

It's an idea, anyway.

BTW, I've read up on Querecetin. Looks good. No sides, and no viral escape variants. That's the way to go!

M.

[mike716]

All I can say is that I wish I had your faith. In anything. I was a pessimist before this, but since being diagnosed HCV+ and having to deal directly with the medical profession and hospitals and the Ministry of Health (reminds me of the Ministry of Fear in the Graham Green novel), I've become a total cynic. Health? Pain and suffering? Who cares? It's just another way to make a buck.

I think the idea of a worldwide HCV pressure group is good. There are enough of us that we might make a difference. If we only succeeded in smacking the wrists of MDs whose hands are in the pockets of Big Pharma, we'd be helping.

It's an idea, anyway.

BTW, I've read up on Querecetin. Looks good. No sides, and no viral escape variants. That's the way to go!

M.

[mike716]

All I can say is that I wish I had your faith. In anything. I was a pessimist before this, but since being diagnosed HCV+ and having to deal directly with the medical profession and hospitals and the Ministry of Health (reminds me of the Ministry of Fear in the Graham Green novel), I've become a total cynic. Health? Pain and suffering? Who cares? It's just another way to make a buck.

I think the idea of a worldwide HCV pressure group is good. There are enough of us that we might make a difference. If we only succeeded in smacking the wrists of MDs whose hands are in the pockets of Big Pharma, we'd be helping.

It's an idea, anyway.

BTW, I've read up on Querecetin. Looks good. No sides, and no viral escape variants. That's the way to go!

M.

[mike716]

Woooops! My computer developed a stutter. Sorry about that!

[Alek07]

Hi Mike

the ALT fluctuations are really minor and it is very doubtful that they are related to the supplements you mentioned...provided they were supplied by a reputable manufacturer.

ALT fluctuations can be the result of a wide range of factors inlcuding diet, stress, minor infections, excessive exsercise (ALT of a forum member rose to 500s during a period of intense exercise and rapid weight loss and returned to near normal after drastic reduction of exercise load), insulan resistance etc etc etc.

Have you visited the caring ambassadors hep c site. Their 'Hep C Choices' book can be downloaded free. it contains a wide range diverse and responsible info regarding all modalities of health care from soc to complemenatry

http://www.hepcchallenge.org/

cheers
Alex

[Alek07]

I should add that I was in a similar position to you in that ALT levels just kept going up till they peaked at ALT 832. There was no corealtion whether I took supps or not. I have since learnt that I had a IR score of 3.2 which would indicate why the supps where not having any effect. Prior to that ALT flare I was using herbs and supps for 12 years and always felt very well and ALTs near normal.

Alex

[Bali05]

don`t know if it worth anything but ever heard of amantadine ?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1492374/

[evangelin]

Polyenelphosphatidylcholine can cause oxidation if it is rancid.  HR talked extensively about it in the past.  If I remember correctly, Cocksparrow thought it raised his enzymes and so quit using it.  He didn't think it was fresh by the time it got to Australia, where he lived. I think I would try leaving it off and see if your numbers improve.  HR thought it valuable but he explained it could actually cause the very oxidation problem we are fighting against unless it has been handled correctly to avoid rancidity.
Just my thought,
Ev

[merryBe]

you need to reduce the overall chemical load. That what my research shows.

you may remember I was the one who brought up the whole rancidity issue with HR.
He did not mention that on his own, but readily admitted it could be true when I brought it to his attention.

My assessment of oils is that fresher is better...eat fish, fresh fish, and fresh veggies, you'll get high HDL that way too. I've added sunflower seed to my regime and raised my HDL 40 point by that method.

my alt went from 30 to 250 at relapse and I've gotten it down to 90 by getting off several rx's. see my journal.  Red wine thats alcohol free would be advisable Mike. Alcohol in any form is really hard on the liver.

[mike716]

Thanks for the URL and your own ideas on these transaminases. Maybe I shouldn't do blood analyses the day after gym? Anyway, I guess 150 isn't so high after all.

[mike716]

Thanks, I'll check it out. I'm interested in quercetin (Querecetin), which has some very good reports. Maybe Querecetin + Alinia therapy?

Too bad the USG and big pharma aren't supporting anything that doesn't include SOC.

M.

[mike716]

I remember HR's precautions about it. Problem is, how do you tell if it's rancid or not? I bought mine in the form of Phoschol, through the Internet. That's the brand that HR and Gauf suggested, if I recall rightly. Mine has a "Good Until" date of 11/10. I called the company and they told me it didn't need to be refrigerated, but I'm keeping it in the fridge in any case. Not sure what else to do. I've read so many good reports on its anti-fibrosis action that I hate to give it up.

M.

[mike716]

Hi, Merry Bee! You may be right. A lot of prescription stuff can't be good for the you-know-what. OTOH, taking INF, Riba, epoetin, Neuprogen, Procrit, etc. isn't exactly being kind to your bod either.

I've got my food intake down to nothing but fresh foods, like you. (I don't mean that you are a fresh food, Merry.) I eat eggs, whole grain cereals, nuts, fresh veggies, and lots of tuna and sardines, as well as cooked fish and chicken. I'm pretty darn healthy, actually, all things considred. And my cholesterol is down to 125, with HDL around 75%.

So maybe I don't need these pills I'm taking. But the rise in the transaminases scares me. And since I don't have SOC + PI in sight, I've gotta try and do something to keep the fibrosis reined in as much as possible.

If you've got your ALT down to 90 you're doing great! Heck, that's almost normal.

I'm gonna keep taking this stuff for a while longer and see what happens. My hep MD (who admittedly is not to be trusted further than he can be thrown) told me that sometimes there's an initial reaction to new chemicals that goes away, and then their real effects show up.

We'll see.

Mike

[evangelin]

I don't know how you can tell.  HR recommended the Hepatapro brand by Life Extension.  I remember past discussions by Cocksparrow about this subject and he didn't know how you could be sure.  It seems like I recall something about stickiness or something. Goofydad might remember more about it. Cocksparrow isn't here on Medhelp anymore.  He is a very smart guy and unless my memory is off, he was pretty sure that the PPC he purchased, raised his enzymes and they lowered again when he stopped taking it.
I am really good at sniffing oils to tell if they are getting rancid.  If you have a good nose and smell rancid oil, you can detect  it pretty quickly when you smell it again.  I don't know if PPC would have the same rancid smell or not.  I haven't been buying it lately because of the high cost.  I have given Joe lots of it in the past though and will again if I can.  
Best Wishes,
Ev

[Rockerforlife]

Take it easy on the tuna and sardines,lots of mercury.

[mike716]

You´ve got me kinds worried about the PPC. Maybe I´ll stop it for a while, until I can do another blood test.

Cheers!

Mike

[mike716]

Uh-oh, I never thought of that. You think those canned fish are high in mercury, huh? Could be. No reason for the canners to remove it, I guess. It´s too darn bad, though, because I like them and they´re otherwise real healthy.

But do they have any more mercury than fresh fish?

M.

[tashka]

Can somebody tell me what PPC is?

[Alek07]

It's interesting about the tuna & mercury. As I mentioned earlier on this thread I had an alt flare of 832 some 4 years ago.....At that time the only thing that stands out is that I was eating canned tuna almost daily for a period of several weeks at a time.

Since then I have wondered about the possibility of mercury overload being a significant factor in the alt flare.

Interestingly, after that flare I started following Berkson's protocol together with PPC. ALTs dropped dramatically over a period of several months but then fluctuated between 150 -300 for couple of years. for that I blame insulin resistance. I stopped the supplements for a while and ALTs still continued to fluctuate so that exlcudes the supps as a cause of alt elevations.

My experience with PPC over a number of years has been that it is beneficial and helps lower alt levels for only for a certain period of time. After that it seems to lose effectiveness....maybe due to a build up lipids in the liver??...

[WriteItDown]

Canned tuna is indeed high in mercury, especially the solid white albacore type.  It is the same for fresh tuna. I like tuna but now eat it rarely, and when I do it's the pink kind, which is usually made from smaller tuna with a lower amount of mercury. For a person weighing 130 pounds, the sources I trust recommend no more than 1 can of albacore tuna per 10 days.... that tells you something. For light tuna it's one can every 4 days.

There is plenty of information on mercury levels in fish available on the web.  I would suggest anyone with liver disease to take it seriously.

[Alek07]

PPC-phosphatidy-choline which is a lipid complex found in lecithin.

alek

[merryBe]

on the other hand, just getting off of the treatment drugs, and the rescue drugs and the anti-deps etc, can also raise your enyzme levels....ain't that the pits, darned if you do...darned if you don't

but you still need to try to get off them to lower the P450 taxations.
I'm using silimarin and melatonin to lower the inflammatory rebound and toxicity of withdrawal...sam-e works too.

If you lived state side I'd say get your oils from Life extention site and call it good....they are the only ones who keep thier oil warehouse cool...but you are in SA and so who knows how hot those things get before you get them. They can be rancid for a long time before the average nose can detect it.

again, fresh veggies, fish, organiccally grown where you can get it,,these are the best ways to incorporate esential lipids without risking the dreaded rancidity. Oils can be 100% rancid in as little as 10 days if not handles properly, so it's more of an issue that folks realize.

mb

[merryBe]

one more thing is as the liver become more fibrotic lipid pooling begins o occur more readily...that's where the Non alcoholic fatty liver disease can get going...and that impairs more liver function, as well as contribute, sets you up for HCC.
I'm not convinced that a lot of fat is wisdom in later stage LD...quite the opposite actually. Although we do need some in our diets obviously.

read up on sam-e dude.

BTW...I take freash oil seriously...for instance, my main oilly snack in sunflower seeds...that I grow and roast myself...can't get fresher than that.

mb

[cindyh113]

Love the Edward G. Robinson picture. You must like old movies. Old movies are my stress reducer. TCM, Turner Classic Movies is my therapy.
I have been taking E and Alpha-lipoic acid. Not the others. I go the 29th to DR.
I'll be watching and let you know what happens with me.

[cindyh113]

And I totally agree with the education of Hep C. There is none. Looks like they would try to keep us from getting this awful thing.

[Rockerforlife]

Check out my food intake.Food of the Gods.


1.Organic Whey (Progressive)
2.Organic Greens RX
3.Organic Coconut Oil (Alfa DME)
4.Raw Organic Eggs
4.Almonds(roasted)
5.Blueberry Juice
6.Organic Apples and Bananas
8.Ginger (root,powder and candy)
9.Organic Rice(brown)
10.Vit- D
11.Mushroom Extract (cordyceps))
13.Blue Green Algae (stem enhance)
14,Distilled Water
15.Ground Flax Seeds
16.Red Ginseng Liquid Extract
17.Magnesium Supplement
18.Stevia
19.Blackstrap Molasses
20.Organic Extra Virgin Olive Oil
21.Tea (black,green,spearmint,licorice,chamile)
22.Raw Organic Sugar
23.Organic Apple Cidar Vineager
24.Pototoes,frozen veggie mix
25.Tumeric
26.Organic Raw Caco Chips
27.Organic Soya "ice cream"

I also use organic soaps,have a shower filter,organic tooth paste and
deodorants.

[Rockerforlife]

I dont have scuba tanks on my back yet..i still breathe the dirty air.

[Rockerforlife]

The bigger the fish,the more mercury and also the the more fatty the fish,the more mercruy even small fatty fish like mackel and sardines...swordfish and large tuna are not fit for a dog to eat...id rahter eat canned dog food.

[WriteItDown]

That's not always true about bigger and fattier fish.  It also depends upon the species, where it lives, what it feeds on, etc.  For example wild Alaskan salmon have very little mercury  (although it is true that the bigger, fattier ones have more PCB contamination); and some of the bigger white fish like cod also do not have nearly as much mercury as species like swordfish and marlin. But I totally agree with you that one ought to avoid the ones with high mercury.  Not sure I'd rather eat dog food though.... can I just skip both instead?  ;)

[Rockerforlife]

You are 100% correct,salmon is one fish that is low on the mercury even tho its "fatty",almost sounds like im talkn about a "fatty "liver...dont want to go of track,but yes salmon is good..not sure why its lower in merc,i think i read somewhere its the farmed salmon that are nasty,wild salmon is ok...still tho...its in all fish at different levels...small canned white light tuna is ok too.in small amounts .I love the cod fish myself  as a treat.

BTW...some canning companies say it light tuna and its the other bigger fish...ya cant trust em all the time.

[mike716]

(and to Alek07)

When I use the abbreviation PPC I mean polyenyl-phosphatidylcholine, which is the part of phosphatidylcholine that was found to be the operative antifibrotic. It´s all in the old posts re PPC to and from HR (Hepatitis Researcher).

There are a number of online sources for polyenyl-phosphatidylcholine, which is sold as Phoschol, among other brand names.

M.

[mike716]

If you get any feedback (like blood marker changes) on Vit E and ALA, please send me a message about it. I´m still taking this stuff, but I have no idea what it´s doing to me.

M.

[mike716]

I could go for some blueberry juice and soya ice cream, but to go the whole organic route like you´re doing would be a real headache here in Argentina and vastly expensive. Fortunately, most of the fresh produce sold in the small stores and markets in my neighborhood is locally grown on small-ish farms. Neoliberalized international agrobiz hasn´t hit Argentina yet, at least not bigtime. Soon, but not yet.

Are you gonna walk around in the street with the scuba gear?

M.