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Blood from a cats claw
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Blood from a cats claw

Basically what I want to know is if the cat were to get a pint of infected blood on his claw and then a day later scratched someone else if it would transfer? I would figure after a full day of the cat tearing across the house it would rub off, plus with him cleaning and grooming himself you wouldn't have anything to worry about. I also don't think blood cells could live just sitting on his claws for a day either.

I ask this because recently my nephew has been worrying that something like that could happen. Yesterday the kitten picked me (pretty sure it didn't draw blood or anything just a little poke) and then a full day later it tore up my nephews hand when he was playing with him--so he's sort of anxious to know if it's even possible for hep c to transfer that way. I've truthfully never heard of anything like that happening but it's something I wouldn't mind knowing myself.

Thanks.
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173975_tn?1216261375
A PINT of blood?

Anyway;  I don't think your nephew has anything to worry about.  

Probably the only way that scenario could possibly happen would be if the cat scratched someone who was infected, and that person bled onto the claw, and the cat immediately scratched someone else, drew blood and opened a wound on the second person's skin.

But it would have to occur immediately, I would think.  Hep-C is a human transmitted blood to blood virus and the addition of a cat in the route provides another degree of separation, so to speak.

The most common ways of getting the virus are shared IV needles and blood transfusions.  There are a number of other documented transmission sources, such as tattoos, body piercings, manicures, air-guns.

wyntre
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206807_tn?1331939784
What are you doing with a pint of blood in your house or what is a cat doing in a area that contains pints of blood?
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Avatar_dr_m_tn
Your nephew unforotunately has a good point and a realistic worry. There is no fundamental difference between the instruments of manicures, tatoos,etc and the claw of a cat. A tiny amount of blood stays on the claw, and will stay infectious for a while, just as long as it would stay infectious on a needle. If a person has 20000000 iU of HCV in his blood, then 1 microliter, that is a good estimate of the amount that could stay on the claw, still contains about  30000 = thirtythousand virons.

I just spoke with an infectious disease specialist at UCLA, that has researched survivial times of viruses at surfaces. It must be assumed, that infectioness of the dried blood virus ( HIV, HBV, HCV) continues up to two weeks.
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173975_tn?1216261375
I stand corrected, but that is really scary.

Would the same be true of birds?

If one of my parrots scratched my arm and then landed on someone else and scratched them, could she transmit the virus?

And what if I'm UND?  

Now I'm worried.

wyntre
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Avatar_m_tn
I think you have to make a distintion between what is possible in theory and how you are going to live your life. Following the cat's scratch theory through to it's logical conclusion, one would never venture into a pet owner's home (unless padded) for fear of picking up HCV, HIV, whatever. And then what about going outside with the risk of mosquitoes? Or playing ball where the possiblity always exists of two simultaneous cuts. In the cat example, while HR shows how it's theoretically possible, BOTH parties would have to have a break in the skin, and then the cat would have to claw the second party within the time period mentioned, assuming the dried blood did not physically rub off which knowing cats, is likely. But even IF all the aforementined happend, keep in mind that needle stick injuries in hospitals (where blood is fresh) only result in what I remember to be 1-3% exposure risk. Guess what I'm saying is that I don't think you have to lock up Polly yet, but yes, I suppose it prudent if she got blood on her claws -- from anyone -- probably best to wipe the claws off with a disinfectant and/or keep her in a cage for that period.

-- Jim
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96938_tn?1189803458
If infected by the parrott, more likely with chirpees
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173975_tn?1216261375
That's what I was trying to convey (what you said) althought I didn't have any of those pesky facts to back me up!  :)

But, what about the UND question.  (I know it's probably perfectly clear to any sane person).

Can you transmit the virus when you're UND?  Or SVR?  Or is it only when the virus is active in your blood?

Wyntre

BTW - Venus says don't you dare call her Polly!

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Avatar_f_tn
I asked my doctor the same thing about the cats having blood on there calws and passing hep c to my son. He said the virus can stay alive for up to 3 days on surfaces. And  to have my son tested again if I was really worried. I have a Iguana Who scratches me alot. I don't let my son Touch him.
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Avatar_m_tn
My doctor would probably say no, because he doesn't feel there is any viable virus after SVR. I'm sure others will have different opinions, as this issue has been raised in some of the occult/persistent papers. I say "raised" but no conclusions. And as far as I know, no direct studies on the matter.

But if you did want to assume -- for discussions sake -- that the possiblity of SVR transmission exists -- it would no doubt be far less than with someone who is detectible since the amount of virus would be so little (assuming it exitsts).

-- Jim
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Avatar_m_tn
My apologies to VENUS :)
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173975_tn?1216261375
Flguy,

OK.  I don't get it.  (as usual)

Jim,

Good thing you retracted that unforgivable insult.  Calling a parrot "Polly" could get you kicked off avian airways.  

Fortunately for you, Venus isn't the litigious sort.  She's accepted your apologies and waived her right to seek compensation, financial or otherwise.

wyn

ps - ok.  Not gonna worry about that UND/SVR transmission thing, otherwise, you're right, I could spin this out to infinity.  For example, am i ethically bound to tell my avian vet that I'm on TX and therefore the parrots, whose nails he manicures, could, conceivably have come in contact with contaminated blood and so therefore . . . .

I mean, i didn't see him wearing latex gloves the other day when he was ministering to the injured budgie.

  
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Avatar_m_tn
C'mon, you're seen the Valtrex commercial for "Chirpees" , haven't you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX8mLFVpCOI
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Avatar_m_tn
Whoops. Wrong Valtrex Chirpies Commercial. Try this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v08NSTCTyP0
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Avatar_dr_m_tn
In the above example, when you drop from 20000000 to UND, so do the chances of transmission by one of these animal vector routes - they drop by a factor of 40 million, because thats how much less virus will be on the cats or parrots claw. Nice risk reduction.

Jim, we are talking about a fully infected person in the household together with an animal that can transmit.If you compare that to the chance of being bitten by an infected mosquito or playing ball, or any petowner NOT infected, that is an argument, that is hard to follow. This was about the nephew of an infected person,  in THAT setting, is there a real risk? Yes there is and it better be taken seriously.
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173975_tn?1216261375
*LOL*

OK.  Now I get it.

wyn
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173975_tn?1216261375
All I can say is it's a good thing I didn't know about this before I reached UND, 9 months ago.  I would have been certifiable by now.

Not that anyone besides me handles the flock with anything other than a towel or a perch.

wyn
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Avatar_m_tn
Sorry, did not mean to imply that the "ball playing" or "mosquito" example were in the same ballpark, so to speak, merely trying to show how you could keep going with this sort of thing.

However, I do not think my analogy about someone venturing into any pet owner's home is far off the mark -- compared to the example in question. In the United States there are over 3 million infected with HCV, not sure how many infected with HIV or other blood transmittal diseases -- and that represents a considerable number of households where a pet could conceivably come into contact with an owner's dried blood.

-- Jim
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Avatar_dr_m_tn
jim
and that represents a considerable number of households where a pet could conceivably come into contact with an owner's dried blood.

And I would indeed not want to be scratched by such a pet. Also LIVING in such a household is not the same as visiting. That amplifies your risk hundredfolds.
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Avatar_m_tn
Again, in a transmission scenario,  blood would have to be drawn from an HCV infected person in the household. That blood would then have to survive during the  three-day period, i.e. not get rubbed/walked/liked off. Then any surviving blood would have to  be transferred to another person via another scratch from same paw that drew blood. And even if all this transpires, the transmission rate would have to be compared to a less than 3% medical stick rate that has been studied.

For this reason, I don't think anyone should be concerned about either having strangers walk into their house and be exposed to their pets, or be concerned about walking into a strangers house and being exposed to their pets.

This is not to say that if I had a pet and was HCV infected, and my pet drew my blood, that I would not wipe her paws with a disinfectant or even possibly keep her away from company for a day or so. But the discussion based on an example by "rek" where no blood was drawn as far was we know.

Please have the last word if you want.

-- Jim
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Avatar_f_tn
HR, would you have a link to any of this information regarding pets and HCV etc.

Linda
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151263_tn?1243377877
jim above you say "That blood would then have to survive during the  three-day period, i.e. not get rubbed/walked/liked off." You seem to relate the possible contact route as usually a delayed one, which serves to mitigate risk. But speaking for myself, I grew up with three cats in our household. It was very common for one of us to play with the cats, especially when they were young and frisky. And we'd get scratches with their needle like claws (occasionally being a fairly deep penetration). And often within minutes another family member would also play with the cat. I agree the individualized event transmission risk is low, but the accumulated day-to-day risk could be appreciable. Cats can scratch the sh*t out of you when they're playing sometimes, especially when they're kittens as described above. I could see where transference might be realistically plausible if there is prolonged close quarters living and the cat is highly interactive with both the HCV infected person and the non-infected persons.
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264233_tn?1216345915
this is another senario.

when i get a cut or scrape my dog will lick my wound and believe it or it heals much faster when he does this than waiting for the natural process of healing.

can an animal get the hcv virus as well or do you think the cleaness so to speak of my dogs mouth kills the virus before it does harm to my dog.

just curious.
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Avatar_m_tn
The sentence you quoted was badly written, and should have referred to the "three-day" period as the "outside' period since that is how low it's hypothesized HCV can live outside the body. Yes, a number of scenarios where it could only be hours or minutes, and I, like yourself, grew up in a household with cats, who would scratch on occasion when I tormented them :)  I don't disagree that these things can't happen, just don't think the day-to-day risk isn't  worth focusing on for reasons I've already labored. Mind you, I'm as paranoid as the next person, but worry a lot more when I go to the doc's office to get scoped, etc, then when visiting friends with cats, who as you know, tend to keep their claws fairly clean.

Kc,

I think only Chimpanzees can get HCV, certainly not dogs. As to the saliva being a protectorant, not sure if that has been studied although I do remember some studies re insects where they postulated that some insect-like secretion might stop the virus from being transmitted from person to insect to person.
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264233_tn?1216345915
thanks, i feel better now i was startin to worry my little buddy might get it from me, so i will tell him it is ok to keep tx'g my wounds.  : O )

does this mean i will have to start calling him 'Dr Zeus".
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Avatar_dr_m_tn
The scenario by rek above was under the assumption that a small amount of blood from an infected person is on the cats claw.
"Yesterday the kitten picked me (pretty sure it didn't draw blood or anything just a little poke) and then a full day later it tore up my nephews hand when he was playing with him"

I assume this kind of family life will happen repeatedly. Jim, would  you want to be this nephew?

hippygem
While there is no specific literature investigating pets risk of transmission, there is some re other household contact behaviour : affectionate  biting of small children:



"Our findings indicate that close contact with objects (in this study, a toothbrush) contaminated with saliva and/or perhaps small quantities of blood and being bitten by the carrier represent important routes for HCV transmission; this was re-enforced by the similarity of genotypes isolated from index patients and corresponding infected family members. The implications of these data are relevant to the members of high risk group where people infected with HCV are present. "

The idea that the virus can be licked or walked off.....no. You need chemical means, like bleach. I have once posted the exact concentrations/times before, after contacting a specialist to have specific  sound information on hand.

Ever heard off cats scratch disease or "maladie de griffe de chat" or "Katzenkratzkrankeheit": Point : the licking and walking does not work to clean the cats claws of viruses.

mremeet
Thanks for the realistic cat account, they do have very sharp claws and certainly can reach/break your skin and reach your blood containing layer.
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Avatar_dr_m_tn
Endoscopes get sterilized by long and laborious  procedures.

Also, please  where do you get your info regarding the 3 days, it seems to contradict what I just heard by the chairman of the US wide efforts committee to protect laboratory personnel in biosafety environments.
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Avatar_m_tn
I promised to give you the last word, but you've asked me some specific questions...

HR: Jim, would  you want to be this nephew?
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FIrst, I still read "rek's" post that blood probably wasn't drawn, so at least in my mind, the discussion was more about a generic type of cat scratch in a household. I did also say that if I saw blood I'd probably use bleach to wipe off the claws.

From Rek: From "Rek"
"Yesterday the kitten picked me (pretty sure it didn't draw blood or anything just a little poke) and then a full day later it tore up my nephews hand when he was playing with him"

Are you suggesting that cat's do not belong in a household with one member has HCV and another member doesn't?

HR: where do you get your info regarding the 3 days.
--------------------------------------------------

Honestly, I forgot where I first read it, but have seen that or a similar figure mentioned a number of times. Here's one reference (actually 4 days) from "The Body" a very reputable site. But whether 3, 4, 7 or 14 days -- I still don't think that significantly impacts the point either of us are making, because as "Mre" pointed out, scenarios could be just minutes or hours.

HR: Endoscopes get sterilized by long and laborious  procedures
------------------------
I'm certainly not going to let it stop me from being scoped,  but I have seen it listed under "Community Acquired" routes as per this article and also do not have as much confidence in medical support personnel as I'd like to after observing close hand some of the procedures that are followed -- actually not followed -- in hospitals.

That said, my point was more that a certain degree of risk exists all around us but that does not mean it should signficantly alter how we act:

http://www.natap.org/2002/ICAAC/day4.htm

"The authors conclude that this study shows that hospital stays, GI endoscopy, some dermatological procedures and cocaine use are risk factors for community-acquired HCV in France, and we also provide evidence for less-recognized risk factors."




lso, please  where do you get your info regarding the 3 days,

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Avatar_m_tn
Sorry, forgot to provide the text and link to "The Body"
http://www.thebody.com/content/art17095.html

How long can HCV live outside the body and transmit infection?

Recent studies suggest that HCV may survive on environmental surfaces at room temperature at least 16 hours, but no longer than 4 days.

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Avatar_m_tn
I have seen this question elsewhere and would not have taken much notice of this thread, as it raises some red flags for me. But Jim and HR have turned this into something rather interesting.
As I was scrolling down this thread I was thinking of the very same links Jim posted. The French study in particular. Here is a not so old MedHelp thread that mentions the 3 day period.
http://www.medhelp.org/forums/hepatitis/messages/41357.html

Now I thought it was 4 days that HCV can live outside the body but think I have seen longer.

The following comes from the CDC http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/hepatitis/c/faq.htm#1b1
Q. How long can HCV live outside the body and transmit infection?
A. Recent studies suggest that HCV may survive on environmental surfaces at room temperature at least 16 hours, but no longer than 4 days. There are many examples of this time frame. While they all seem to be referring to the same study, one of the better ones is from HCVAdvocate. http://hcvadvocate.org/hepatitis/factsheets_pdf/How%20_long.pdf.

A study conducted by Kris Krawczynski et. al from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention tested the stability of dried and stored serum (blood) of HCV infected blood in chimpanzees to determine how long HCV infected blood lives on an outside surface as well as the level of infectivity of the blood exposed.

The authors found that HCV RNA (viral load) was detectable in plasma dried overnight and 7 days, but a ten fold decrease of detectable HCV RNA (viral load) was found in both of the samples compared with the HCV RNA level of the original, untreated HCV positive plasma sample. No evidence of HCV infections was detected in the chimpanzee given either the 7-day or 4-day dried and stored samples.

The authors of this study concluded that infectivity studies in a chimpanzee suggest that HCV may survive on environmental surfaces at room temperature for at least 16 hours but not longer than 4 days. The potential for HCV to survive in the environment re-emphasizes the importance of cleaning and disinfection procedures, safe therapeutic injection practices, and harm reduction counselling and services for injection drug users.

The following comes from the above CDC link
Q. Can you get Hepatitis C from getting a tattoo?
A. Although biologically possible when poor infection control practices are used, there is no evidence that hepatitis C virus (HCV) has been spread through tattooing.

Now if you cant get HepC from a Tattoo then the chance of getting HCV from a cat must be rather slim. Cause the CDC could well be wrong but I wont go there.

CS
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206807_tn?1331939784
I am with Jim on the “Blood Drawn” angle. I have been scratched and cut many times on the surface of the skin but I don’t remember ever immediately bleeding, ever. Think about it, you have a cat’s claw that never really got into pure blood other than the pint (joking), ran around the house for a day, constantly cleaning itself (like all cats do), then finally scratching someone else. I have to say I would be more concerned about the mosquito threat than the cat scratch. We discuss the possibilities of almost impossible transmissions. Almost anything is possible. A meteorite can crash through my house and crush me at my computer at anytime now. I refuse to live my life paranoid, running from cats, living in a mosquito tent, or looking out my window for incoming meteorites. Don’t forget about the possible lawsuits from people for their mental anguish because of the possibility of HCV transmission FROM A CAT.
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179856_tn?1333550962
Wow I've always done the "wondering about mosquitoes" thing with HIV (never thought about Hep in the old days before I knew I had it) and well it's always seemed like an obsessive thing to think about but now, realizing that it could be possible - makes you realize that SO many people have this disease who have NO Idea how they got it.......that it really opens up other windows.

The virus being alive for up to TWO weeks would mean there are so many ways that yo COULD get it....in all that time...........that it's a miracle even MORE people don't have this disease.

While chances might be "slim" anything that is POSSIBLE is POSSIBLE and therefore...could happen and that is a freaky thing to think about.
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151263_tn?1243377877
rglassquote: "I have been scratched and cut many times on the surface of the skin but I don’t remember ever immediately bleeding, ever."

You're kidding right? I've been scratched many, many times from cats and small amounts of blood were drawn. And even if blood is not immediately apparent to the naked eye, that doesn't mean it isn't there.

rglassquote: "Think about it, you have a cat’s claw that never really got into pure blood other than the pint (joking)..."

I have thought about it, and the cat's claws don't have to come into contact with "pure blood." All they have to do is to penetrate into your skin sufficiently to become contaminated with your blood. And this can occur without actually drawing visible blood too, incidentally.

rglassquote: "...ran around the house for a day, constantly cleaning itself (like all cats do), then finally scratching someone else."

Again, why is the risk being characterized as if there will always be a significant time delay between possible transference exposures? That may be true most of the time, but in a normal cozy household with kids and kitties and an infected adult who also plays with the kitty, there could very well be quick transition from the cat scratching the infected person to the cat scratching an uninfected child. Especially when you add up the possible infective events over a prolonged period of time, perhaps even lasting years. Is it really that unreasonable to concede this may be true and that the odds of something like that happening well exceed the meteorite falling through the roof scenario posed above? I think so.

Bottom line is that no one's suggesting that rek live in fear or those around him live in fear as if he's some kind of ostracized leper. But the fact of the matter is, is that innocent uninfected children are at risk (as described in rek's situation above). Those are the stakes. Even if the complete odds of transference were calculable and shown to be, say...3% over the course of 5 years of cohabitation. Is that acceptable? Is that an ok risk to impose on a child who cannot make those decisions for themselves? You say 3% is too high? Ok, how about 2%? Maybe 1%? Where do you draw the line of what risk YOU think is acceptable for what seems like a plausible and not astronomically unlikely mode of infection? What level of risk is acceptable for a little person you love so much you'd die for them? And here's the real kicker, is there a simple and reasonable way to avoid this risk? Of course there is! Rek can simply avoid playing with the kitty and/or the kitty can be declawed (assuming she's an inside cat). And in the event rek is inadvertanty "attacked" by the kitty, then as jim suggested above the cat's claws can be cleaned with disinfectant and kitty can be sequestered away from the uninfected people in the household until the risk has passed. Seems reasonable to me, I don't see what the fuss is about.
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Avatar_m_tn
With some many cat lovers in the world, and so many of us infected (or having been infected with HCV) I figured this question had been asked before. Here are two Q&A's in forums where patients ask doctors. (see below). Just two more opinions, doesn't make them right or wrong.

I think in the end, as Mre states, it's what level of risk are you comfortable with. And it's not a surprise that we're all different in this regard.

This is always apparent, for example, in the sexual transmission threads. On one hand, there are many here who go by CDC recommendations, i.e. no need for condoms in monagamous hetero relationships. On the other hand, some appear only comfortable with condoms. Same with disclosure. Does someone need to disclosure if they use condoms? Some will say no, and others will say what if the condom breaks.

I guess the reason this becomes an emotional issue with some of us -- and I'm speaking just for myself here -- is because as someone with HCV, one has to always try and balance reasonable precaution with issues of privacy and disclosure.

I don't think we're all that far apart, using the example Mre picked up with the disinfecting of a cat's claw for example in a blood incident, but we all are individual and it's normal to have slightly different takes on things. Obviously, no studies have been done to demonstrate what the odds might actually be and they and they can only be extrapolated from needle stick studies.

http://www.thebody.com/Forums/AIDS/Hepatitis/Current/Q187101.html

HCV transmission
Sep 9, 2007

Q: Is there any risk of contracting Hepatitis C when a cat scratches someone with Hep C and draws blood, and later scratches another person? Thank you.

A. Response from Dr. McGovern

I would consider that risk extraordinarily low and would not seek testing.
------------------
Q: Can you get hepatitis C from a cat scratch. If a cat scratches someone with hepatitis C can it be given to someone else living in the house that is scratched by the cat?

A: There has never been a reported case of hepatitis C being passed via a cat scratch. I cannot say it is impossible if there were a significant amount of blood involved and the scratches were deep - but it is my opinion that it would be highly unlikely to be infected with the hepatitis C virus is this way.
http://tinyurl.com/37k9pd
    

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Avatar_m_tn
That's how I got it - a cat scratched me. Now Kitty Mouse Kitten wears his mesh booties everywhere he goes. I feel so much safer that way. Great thread! Mike
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179856_tn?1333550962
I know it sounds so stupid but my dog was licking my cut one night and i kept trying to stop him and i was worried he'd get it somehow..........I know that is ridiculous and he can't but........waaaa I didn't want to harm him!  Stupid...stupid but true.
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206807_tn?1331939784
We will just have to agree to disagree on this one, which is fine since this thread is pretty much based on theory and opinion.  I re-read both of our post and I still stand by mine, as I am sure you still stand by yours.
  



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Avatar_f_tn
My cats don't scratch, so I read this thread the other day with sort of an abstract interest, although I did leave feeling like a walking germ.
So, of course, my cat just scratched me. By accident, but I'm bleeding in 3 places.
So, here's my question, can I spread HCV in a pool? I go to physical therapy in a pool.  I have an appointment tomorrow. It's a heated saltwater pool that smells very "chemical-ly".  
There are lots of young children with disabilities who use the pool, so I have always assumed/hoped that there were many agents getting rid of whatever was in the water (use your imagination).  I don't want to take a chance of hurting the children or anyone else there, but I really do need to continue my therapy.
By tomorrow, these scratches will be scabbed over.  Is it safe to go in the pool?
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173975_tn?1216261375
After the discussion here, I'm not sure of what to advise you.

BTW - I recently moved just south of Albany.  Do you go to Albany Medical Center?  I'm going to have to find a local Dr. once my TX is done May 2.

wyntre
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Avatar_m_tn
Most pools require all open wounds to be covered, but this is not specific to HCV.

I assume, since this is a public pool, that people with HCV, HCB, HCA, HIV and other health issues swim in the pool all the time.  

"Is it safe to go in the pool?"    Is it safe to get out of bed in the morning?

If it were me, I'd dress the wound with a waterproof tape, and to to physical therapy.
Between the wound dressing, the chlorine, the dilution in the water, and the blood-to-blood nature of transmission, I'd say that your chance of spreading your HCV is nil. In fact, according to this article -- the person who might be at risk is you --- assuming you haven't been vaccinated against Hep A. Not to mention other intestinal type diseases that have been transmitted through swimming pools.

http://www.hepcaustralia.com.au/news-archive/hepatitis-and-swimming-pools.html

-- Jim
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Avatar_m_tn
Second paragraph should have read in part:  ".. people with HCV, Hep B, Hep A, HIV...
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287900_tn?1218647818
teehee, TOTALLY off topic, but with me name, I would SO love to go to Albany ...
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173975_tn?1216261375
I figured that!  :)

I see you're up in Canada.  Are you guys supposed to get the snow/ice storm over the weekend, too?

wyn
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Avatar_f_tn
JmJm  - That makes sense - a waterproof bandage.  Should have thought of that. (I actually haven't been vaccinated against Hepatitis A, because I had it.)  Double fun for my liver.  Thanks!

Wyntre - I,m goin to try to send you a message....
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Avatar_f_tn
Sorry about the last message - didn't proof it.  Oops.
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Avatar_f_tn
Jim, an excerpt from the article you posted. (I am laughing so hard right now that I feel like my stomach is going to turn inside out,,I mean that too. My husband just came in to see why I am laughing so hard........Here's what made me laugh,,I'm tired so I get silly, but this is really tearing me up....

"Transmitted primarily by the fecal-oral route, hepatitis A infection can occur by swallowing pool water containing feces. Additionally, hepatitis A is a potential problem when large numbers of people congregate and where overcrowding and inadequate sanitation exist. Because hepatitis A is easily spread by raw sewage, it can become a danger in the recreational swimming environment when:

· >>>>>a person accidentally has a bowel movement in the pool <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
· sewage systems become overburdened from heavy rainfall or flooding and infects swimming waters.
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OMG!! Okayyyyy, come on Jim,,,, - you 'accidentally" spill coffee on your check book while writting a check,,,,you 'accidently' lock your keys in your car,,,,,you 'accidently' make a right turn when you were supposed to make a left,,,,BUT YOU DON'T ACCIDENTLY HAVE A BOWEL MOVEMENT IN A POOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh my stomach - I can't take it!!! I really can't. A person that 'accidently' has bowel movements 'here and there,' should know that they have that problem and not swim in pools!!!!!!!!!!!!

I mean really,,,they made it sound like its a common occurence. They should have just left it when they said 'water containing feces,' cause then you would think some kid did it, yuk.

But this makes it sound like,,,,,,imagine you invited me over your house to swim and we're both hanging out and doing laps around the pool. Then at about noon, you say,,"Myown, I'm going to go inside and make us lunch - I'll be right out." I say "okay Jim, take your time. I'll just do some water exercises."

Then as you come back out into the yard. You say "hey Myown, you have some great strokes, were you on the swim team in school?"  I say "no Jim, I just have always been a strong swimmer."  Oh and by the way Jim, I just did a bowel movement by "accident" in the deep end of the pool." And you say, "hey no problem Myown, I have a special pooper scooper for when that happens to my friends,,  my friend Charlie left one in the shallow end yesterday."

OH help me, my stomach. Maybe I'm the only one that thinks that article is funny, but I'm dying here. My husband is laughing but I don't know whether he is laughing cause I am laughing so hard or he really thinks its funny too.

Well, I had a good release of seratonin tonight!

See ya later.


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Avatar_m_tn
I guess you don't swim often (or haven't worked much) in public pools. Accidents happen with both children and the elderly. When I swim at the "Y" , I always try and avoid mixed "family" swims, sometimes known as the "yellow" sea. Fecal matter is very common in public pools. If you really want a good "laugh", why don't you google "public hot tubs health". If you do, and knowing you, I doubt you will ever step in a public hot tub again.

-- Jim
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Avatar_m_tn
For more chuckles, google "fecal matter public swimming pools"

Here are a couple of starters:

http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/eh/pools/poolfecalguide.html
http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/PREVIEW/MMWRHTML/mm5020a4.htm
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264233_tn?1216345915
now you all have done it. i will feel guilty every time a mosquito bites me or a cat scratches me or if i am week in a pool or if i break wind in public and god forbid i let my sisters birds get near me. does anyone no were i can by a hazard suit and a hcv infected person label on it.  lol.  :o)
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173975_tn?1216261375
awwwwwwwww.....kc, ya can't let it get to ya like that!  ;)

wyn
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LOL. You realize that my point all along is similar to yours. One cannot live in a "hazard suit" nor should one let others tell them to do so. In fact, the point of my post to "JR" was not to worry about swimming in a pool. ("MO" picked up something else in the article and decided to run with it). Personally, I swim in public pools all the time -- just not at family hour. LOL. Public hot tubs, another story. I did develop an infection in the past from a public hot tub, and will now only enter one if compelled by the site of half naked young ladies.
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i no i too live life as you stated. just my attempt at some humor.

p.s. ditto  :o)
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Yellow sea???? Eww, no - public pools, not me. Work at one?? - are you kidding me?  I always would swim in my mothers pool, but now since she sold the house, its lake swimming more than anything. Oh my stomach still hurts. Jim, you should know me by now....I have never put my foot in a "public hot tub"-ever. My husband used to go into one after his racketball and I finally convinced him not to go into it anymore. I think the rash he got on his thigh helped convince him too.

And pleeeze gimme a break, I'm not saying people have to stop living or live in a bubble, but the person that wrote that article could have worded it a little bit better. It hit me funny as some things do at night when I am tired. But nope swimming in public pools - not for me. No poopy pools. The kicker though,,,,my dog loves to swim and my mothers pool was in ground so she would swim with me all the time. She could just walk right in. I think thats funny cause here I won't swim in a public pool, but I swim with my dog.LOL But shes my baby so that makes a difference. Plus she gets a bath all the time.
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Here ya go...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3XZOUTXKDgk

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1PmMFaVzbzc&feature=related
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LOL!!!!!!  yeah well,,,, I'm not tired right now and I STILL think the wording
"accidently has a bowel movement" is funneeeee. Just saying, "Feces in pool," fits better.
It's the same thing (to look at and taste(utube) lol, but the wording seems a bit better)
Since people seem to be "accepting" the idea that things happen and there is
nothing we can do to stop it, such as kick the person out of the pool that has the brown stain on their bathing suit lol,,,well then I guess we are looking more and more
like a 3rd world country than what I already thought.
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Now you've got me giggling over your scenario.  I didn't pick up on it when I first read it ... but now ......

JmJm - not to discount what you wrote - it was very helpful and I totally got your point, it's just that one bit that is too, too funny.  I probably have a twisted sense of humor.

By the way  - the physical therapy pool closed because of the snow, so the problem was avoided.  
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i know how bad reptiles scratch..i raised monitor lizards for years as well as haveing some iguanas..my kids helped me all the time...we had  crocs,waters, blackthroats....lizards this size have very large claws that arn't retractable....while handling them (cleaning cages ,,re seting up cages..all that) we would almost always come out bleeding..they would scatch deep..and bite sometimes..i would pass the lizards to my kids to hold while i was working on stuff...we were carefull but it's just the way that hobby goes..lots of blood....i worry about the fact that they might have gotten infected from lots of different animals we work with...2 years ago they all tested negitive..that was real nice....billy
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Now you've got me giggling over your scenario.  I didn't pick up on it when I first read it ... but now ......
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is funny(to me), but I know I have beeeeeeeyond>>>twisted humor, and not everyone appreciates it.  Glad to see you have a sense of humor!

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I have parrots but they're perch trained and when their claws get too sharp I bring them in for clipping.

I guess you can't/don't clip reptile claws?

wyntre
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190885_tn?1333029491
about 3 years ago i got real sick and things fell apart...i got rid of my lizards...i didn't know i had hep and i wasn't taking care of it....i know birds can have real sharp strong claws...i had a conure and crows...and no i didn't cut nails on my reptiles...i never de fanged any snakes either...reptiles will tolerate you ..thats the most you can hope for..so you shouldn't do anythjing that might make them feel more uncomfortable..birds seem to do alright with clipping...billy.
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173975_tn?1216261375
A conure?  You're kidding?

Did all the animals find homes?

I know what you mean about being too sick to take care of them.  I only have 4 parrots after one recent death and one adoption, but they were a handful before TX and now it's sometimes very dificult.  But I only have 19 weeks to go.  i don't know whose gonna be happier when i'm done; me or them.  *LOL*

Hope you're doing better,

wyn

PS - I've heard crows are one of the most intelligent birds.  I have a friend whose a master falconer; he has kestrels, peregrines, arizonas, red-tails, gyrfalcons, snowy owls, horned owls, broadtails, coopers and yes, a couple of crows, too.
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don't have time to read this entire thread...but I just wanted to add, if someone does have cats or kittens, and this is a concern...it's very easy to file the sharpest part of the claw with a small grade nail file...so the claw doesn't penetrate the skin, then no blood letting, no problems...course you only do the very tip...after awhile it grows back, doesn't harm the animal and all is well....

Lanier: As I've said before to you, you're welcome to your opinions and everyone is entitled to them, and you're, of course, entitled to disagree with Hepatitis Researcher...I just wish you would calm down your tone - whatever you say. He will probably get annoyed with me for even pointing this out to you....and maybe some other members will too, I'll take my chances...

I just feel he doesn't deserve to be belittled here.....disagreed with, okay, but not belittled...he's providing a service to many of us, and he is an MD.....he's also providing much needed to fibroscans to various members here, whoever needs them. He's a very kind man, and he's getting no compensation, at all, for being here. So yeah, disagree all you want and state your opinions, but leave off the unkind editorializing and characterizations please.

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What foresee said, ditto. Lanier why do you have to be an a$$? Don't drive away the best person we have here with your "I'm such a naughty girl" eighth grade behavior. If you don't like reading what HR has to say, READ ELSEWHERE.
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Lol, it is just too close to Christmas to have taken the chance to engage, but ditto! There are very few here who have the knowledge and skills to answer most of the questions put forth by all of us during these times of turmoil, especially in the beginning of TX and then through out the rest of TX as we “learn” what we did not know before about Hepc and all the aspects and research that has gone into it and then to be able to explain it back to all of us who are in need of help in understanding it. Riba syndrome can some times get us into jams because of other triggers not necessarily related to the topic at hand but none the less it happens from time to time and when the few start debating there is a wealth of information coming out you can’t get anywhere else. I don’t always agree with what they are saying, hell half of the time I don’t understand what they are saying at the moment, but in time it will eventually fit into place but it takes a lot of reading and deciphering along the way. Damn, looking around the room, where did that come from? :)

geterdone/jasper
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96938_tn?1189803458
I happen to agree with Lanier.  At least the first several words of his second paragraph.
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Avatar_m_tn
I lived in California and in South Florida. I visited Canada a bunch of times. I still don't understand any of this. Mike
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Well, that clears it up a little. But, I still don't know what you're really saying here. I'm slow today. Mike
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Avatar_f_tn
what I was "saying" in the start of this "cat scratch" question was the information that heptoresearcher posted was like a math problem that nobody will ever use.  and I was alos say that the reality of being given this virus by a kitten scratch was about as high as the satilite from my cars GPS system falling on my car.  Now in another question the hepto-king gave dosage and mg of drugs for a person who was writing about their alcoholic father who had been in the hospital for swelling in the brain (spinal fuid, interstitial fluid in the lining of head generally speaking) WELL this person gave what was the eqivilant of a RX on this BLOG.  If I did that, I would lose my license in nursing and everything else, it is impossible to do number one, and number two it can be deadly.  I was flabbergasted he did it and then all these other people started telling me NOT to make him mad or he might GO AWAY.  well if he is taking such risks with people he has never seen or done any assesment on subjective or objective to me he is making an improper decison.  and anyone who does not like that go see a specialist on 8th street in dade county...it's about as acurate as Sanitoria.

Lani
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I guess the riba has made me a bit slow...What is your point, did you get scratched by a cat? I'm confused..pro
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I get it now. Thanks for the explanation. Mike
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NO dear,

the start of this thread is a question about getting hcv from a kitten.  I got my gift long ago and far away at the age of 15-17 no kittens to blame only myself.
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86075_tn?1238118691
I'm sorry, but you're ranting a bunch of nonsense...firstly, he is not from Canada, God knows where you got that, he's lives here, in this dreaded California...Maybe he'll get pssed, because I know he wants a certain level of anonymity...but you know these highly sensitive viral load tests we all use? HE INVENTED SOME OF THEM. The main ones. They are used world round.

He not only has a medical degree, but an engineering degree, and has worked with the some of the most respected doctors in the hepatitis field...The reason he has all this data at his fingertips, is because he's busy trying to come up with more things we all will benefit from - as patients. He pores though every bit of data that relates to hepatitis, EVERY BIT that he can get his hands on....he has much more time to do this then most clinical physicians, because this is his GIG. If you think you're MORE knowledgeable, and learned.....and that somehow gives you a right to put him down like this, then you go ahead, because I think you're quasi-delusional. And I hope he does to, and considers the source.

I take youre point (one of the only points you have made of notable significance btw, to me at least) that some of this IS theoretical, and that no human being on earth can have absolute certainty of some of these things....not all things in medical science are absolutes...it's constantly evolving..... but he brings a considerable amount of experience and knowledge to his contentions, but he is the first one to admit that some of this is theoretical...but he's not just pulling facts out of his fundament.

Others here have disagreed with some of his opinions, but have done so civilly and with respect. The same respect that he feels for all of us, whether we have graduated from high school or whatever. He realizes that we all have something to bring to the table that you don't necessarily get from studying theories and scientific data. You see a bunch of other doctors doing this? I don't.

This is another reason he comes here, to hear what we have to say. I've seen him be a little bit frustrated, yes, but I have never seen him lose his cool or belittle anybody with spurious insults, the way you have done with him. I think there are people in this world who just can't stand it when they see a lot of people admiring anybody, plain and simple. But I think this has more to do with them - then the person that they are slamming.

And I know this has nothing to do with anything except your silly tangents, and I'm silly to even address it....but I can be a silly person...

We can be silly people here in California, so we like famous people in top positions, pretty dang silly...so we elected Arnold...but if you'll look at what has evolved in his administration Arnold has turned into a Democrat, for all intents and purposes...he tried to make his own election, and do away with a lot of statutes, etc, and turn California into a Republican run state...and it didn't work, we didn't let him do and end run around the heavily democratic legislature here...so he did some rethinking of what he wanted to accomplish here...if you don't believe this, look it up...get some facts behind a lot of your blithering...

California, a silly place, only the internet was innovated here, among many other things, so we can sit and bicker here about all this silly stuff...
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86075_tn?1238118691
I wrote this in like 3 minutes in a heated emotional state, so I'm sorry if it's barely readable.
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Avatar_f_tn
forseegood,

In the thread where he was giving"medical"  advice to the daughter of the alcoholic, he said "here in Canada" so I guess that was a little "white lie" for his own sake.  I love California, but we have to all admit, you guys are the "free spirits" in so many senses of the word, and you are ALWAYS the first one to jump on me about this guy.  

Your budget and deficit are almost as big as the entire United States, you guys really do have a full plate you have to admit that.  Arnold got his job when you gave the boot to the last "crook" you guys elected.  Arnold is doing a great job with what he has to work with.  Arnold in NO democrat, I have seen him spoeak in Florida with our Republican govenor.  

I love lake Tahoe and skiing at heavenly, I love and San Diego, and San Fran.  I knew you would blow a gasket.  So be it.
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86075_tn?1238118691
whaaaa??? please don't give your mistaken impressions credence, at his expense, by calling him a "white lier" the man is really on top of his game for the most part....why you have so many issues with him is really beyond me, but I have my suspicions....I have had some lousy docs in my life too, but I sure wouldn't paint them all with the same brush....

Not the most mature thing to do and we're all adults here...I'd give my left foot for some of his brain power, and I am really pretty certain that he never said he was from Canada...you seem to have the same MO Lanier...you hurl all these insults at somebody, some of them with no merit at all....HR seems to be the lucky one lately...then you calm down and try to be civil, scratching your head at all the fuss...disagree with the man, but just to have some respect, he tries to do a lot for us, whether you agree with him or not....
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forseegood the thread is here on this blog.  it is a question from a daughter whose alcoholic father has just come home from the hospital being treated for encephalopathy, and this man who you always jump on me about gives dosing and MG and medication recommendations to this daughter.  and he states "here in Canada you can buy it over the counter"  the thread is here.  

I am not making it up.  NO ONE asks how can he do this, instead the topic vears to other things and questions, I am sorry, but my license would be on the line for such thing and it was wrong and it could be fatal, we know nothing about this young girls dad, other than her laymans descriptions.  I am not making it up
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Not sure if anyone has picked up on how aptly named this thread is, in terms of where it has gone.

Lanier, regardless if you disagree, if you speak with respect to people, they will in most cases return the favor. If you talk with a "cat's claw", you will get clawed back.

-- Jim
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thank you.  I am a real B^I^T^C^H about being able to speak my mind.  I never meant to make so many haters, but you know I have at least 20 good friends who are Doctor's and not one of them has ever gotten Pissed for being asked a question or diagreeing with a perspective, it's called a professional conversation.  It is hard for me this "tone" thing, but at this point it really doea not matter a tinkers damn.  I have worked with hundreds of Doctors and have less than 50 that I would call and discuss medical issues with.  It's health care in 2007, everyone thinks we need to focus on getting it for the whole Nation, when in reality, we also need to focus on the people working in the field TODAY.  there are some real issues there, and more hidden than on the books.
thank you again
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96938_tn?1189803458
It's clear that you are not correct. Read the referenced thread. And, it's clear why out of hundreds of doctors only a small percentage will discuss medical matters with you. You mentioned professional conversation, miss class that day?
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Avatar_m_tn
Not sure why you are thanking me because my point was that it was the disrespectful nature of your posts that are making so many people here mad at you. You could have expressed the same opinions in a respectful manner and still "speak your mind". I'm sure when you call up your 50 doctor friends, you don't start out by ridiculing their position on a matter of which you may disagree. I'm getting the impression that you may be new to this whole "blog" thing as you refer to it. MedHelp is not a "blog" where people can say whatever whey want, in whatever way they want. MedHelp is a "Discussion Group" where people -- in theory -- *discuss* matters in a civil manner. Big difference. If you want to open a "blog", there are many public blogs that will offer you space. There you can say anything you want about just about anything.

-- Jim

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86075_tn?1238118691
you don't get it...the man is not giving rx's here...he makes recommendations about certain things, but he hasn't done what you're accusing him of, he expects us to run everything by our respective docs, and he's just giving us his considered opinions...

you have this in your mind, and youre just not right, bring up the thread in question - if you're so certain of this...and he's not the one who got pissed at this latest "indiscretion" of yours, I did.....He's not telling you not to argue with him....where do you get that? Hurl all the insults at me you want, I deal with dogfighters on Utube and in real life... the challenges you pose to me, I can handle...all I'm asking is that you deal with him respectfully, that's all...

he's not getting paid to deal with your aggravation. Many of us just want to be able to hear his takes on things, to help make up our own minds on important issues. He's not saying he's the Holy Grail on anything and everything.

you get things all jumbled up...who has worked with "hundreds" of doctors, are you 85 years old? are you cloned? Really, hope this thread goes away or someone changes the subject.
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Forsee: hope this thread goes away or someone changes the subject.
------------------
Maybe you'd like to discuss in more detail that "seal" thing over on the other side.
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ok if having an opinion is "disrespectful" well I own it.  I did not ridicule I stated a fact that in healthcare goes without saying.  no dosing, no medical advice outside of a clinical setting, and that was my crime.  I really think my comments about the stats were truthful.  So many have no clue about cell receptors, and molocules, and surfactants and the writings are sometimes intimidating.  I have no doubt this person has a real knowledge of cell structure and statistical stuff that goes to mars, I could not hold a candle to his statistical library, but I just was saying sometimes it just seems so Goodness I do not know how to write it.  So I take back the Thank You and say jump on the hater wagon, I really have helped enough people in the real world to know who I am and if asking questions and making comments is wrong on a Blog and makes you disrespectful.  you guys are the ones in that boat.  I never heard from heptdoc until today every other time it has been you guys attacking me, when i NEVER ASKED YOU ANYTHING.
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lanier: no dosing, no medical advice outside of a clinical setting, and that was my crime.
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I think you have to be realistic what these forums are all about. If people simply wanted to follow their doctor's advice to the letter, there would be very little point coming here. And frankly, from what I've heard here, taking what your doctor tells you at face value, can often be detrimental to your health.

No, fact is, many of us chose to expand our knowledge base beyond what our individual doctors have told us. We do this by independent research, and yes, by asking questions here and getting *opinions* from others. Be it mostly lay people, or in this case an MD.

MedHelp clearly states " Information contained within this site is intended solely for general educational purposes and is not intended nor implied to be a substitute for professional medical advice relative to your specific medical condition or question. Always seek the advice of your physician or other health provider for any questions you may have regarding your medical condition."

That makes a lot of sense. And this place should not be a *substitute* for professional medical advice, but it certainly can supplement it.

So, is it really necessary to repeat all that every time we offer an opinion on something? Is it really even necessary to state that it's our "opinion" -- although I tend to do that often after having been under similar attacks as "HR" for simply voicing my opinion.

As I have stated many times, anyone who doesn't take the time to independently verfify what the read on the internet -- especially when an important tx decision is involved -- is being foolish. And, personally, I extend that to my own personal doctors, who I consider among the best, but still fallible.

You've already admitted you have a problem with "tone". Well, I think that's what it's all about, not the fact that you don't have a right to voice your opinion. But "tone" is very important, especially when you can't see the other person you're talking to. Because without a civil tone, discussion on the internet becomes near impossible, and we end up with threads like this which really don't provide anyone much useful information.

-- Jim

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264233_tn?1216345915
i am not going to try and be personal.  let me tell you about b-4 during and after my tx.

i am a veteran from the vietnam era and am not real sure were i got my hep-c from.  i am a geno-1a w/3-4cirosis and fatty liver issues, and was told by doc form apprx 1985 to 2005 that tx could wait. when va finally employed a hepspecialist he said i should get more extensive test to see were i am in my hepc, and low and behold i was more advanced as you can see than the other docs previously told me. so after more test the hepsplst wanted me to start tx that va was offering called the "ideal study".  i tried to get in to that study but could not because of my fatty liver issues and high sugar levels.  so the hepsplst said that he would not treat me until the issues i told you about were dealt with first.  i thank god every day that i did not take that advice and run with it. i got on the internet and did my own research and checked into groups such as this one and decided ( as suggested by many in this group ) to get a second opinion.  being on a limited income i paid out of pocket to see another hepsplst in kansas city, missouri, and this splst told me that i should get treated and that NO MATTER what my other issues were they could be treated while my tx for hepc was on going ( as stated by some in this very group ).  i took my info to my hepsplst at va and explained to him that i wanted tx started.  he said in no other terms "NO". and ( as staed by many in this group ) i did not accept this answer and told the splst that i would go above his head to receive my tx.  he said fine he wont be the one to treat me. well after a process of pt advocate the chief of staff and even the director and the doc i got the second opinion from  the splst was told in no uncertain terms treat mr kcrandy :O). i later found out that the splst did not think my response would that good with the issues i stated from above and as he and i and a lot of other people found out i responded very well.  i was given peg-inf 180mc a week 1200 riba a day and after 12 weeks became und until my 56th week when i ended my tx. i have been called an anomoly by the docs at va and the nurse practitioner, all due to my good response to tx.

i say all of this because had i taken the advice given to me from the splst from the beginning my liver would be in sad shape today.  the liver splst and even the nrs pctnr have admitted that they will be more open to the idea of tx to vets needing it with other questionable health issues.

lanier  believe me i am a layman but i can tell you that everyone from hepsplst to jmjm,alagirl,kcmike,grandma,nygirl,ladyl  and many i have not mentioned have offered advice or have shared thier expierence strengths and hopes with me.
and i listen and absorb all that is freely given and i take what i need and i leave the rest for someone else who might need it.

to question someone does not seem to be a problem but what i have learned in life is that to be judgemental is to be judged. believe me i am not perfect by no means i say all of this with expierence and personal knowledge. i am a defensive person by nature and i question authority as well and sometimes to even being offensive.

from my standpoint!

Merry Christmas to you and your loved ones
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