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Avatar universal

Chinese medicine and viral load...

I've never been treated before but will be start soon.  For the past several months I've been taking a product called Nu-Liver, a Chinese medicine of sorts, which ironically has possibly helped in several ways.  For example, I had bx in January 2007.  At that time my viral load was about 3.5 million on the blood draw.

Then in March, after being on Nu-Liver for about six weeks, I had another blood test which showed 1,100,000 viral, a noticable drop.  

Well anyway, I'm curious. Since there is a correlation between the success of SOC and degree of viral load at the beginning of treatment, does anyone have info on whether it makes sense to be on Nu-Liver or similar medicines prior to treating? Interestingly, Nu-Liver touts that that it can, over time, reduce one's viral load.  And if this is so, then wouldn't it make sense--at least for those with high viral load--to try these herbal medicines prior to beginning treatment?

Incidentally, my profile:

55-year-old (soon to be)
Infected 34 years ago
Geno 1a
Stage 3 (early periportal fibrosis)
Grade 3 (moderate inflammatory activity)
Minimal steotosis
Normal liver function
AST 75
ALT 83
GGT 190
Bilirubin / Albumin still within normal range

Thanks for any input,
r4c7
24 Responses
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86075 tn?1238115091
I think I will take a page from dear Senator Biden's book and just say "I agree." uh oh...spoke too soon, ha ha! I'm too much of a blow-hard lol...I will just say that my doctor is okay with my regimen as well...he checked it out and only had a problem with one thing I took...and I dropped it...like i'm going to drop this subject...nighty night...
Helpful - 0
Avatar universal
Just to throw my own two cents in on the subject -- the two important points as I see it are to first do your homework before taking herbs. In my case I didn't, and that could well be the reason why I may have had a bad reaction.

The second point is to use alternative meds like herbs as part of an overall HCV medical program which includes seeing and being monitored by a liver specialist (hepatologist). Before treatment my liver specialist didn't have a problem with me taking herbs, he just wanted to know what I was taking, so things could be monitored.

As to monitoring -- liver enzymes and viral load have some importance, but the acid test is how much actual liver damage you have. This can be best monitored by needle biopsy and Fibroscan and to a lesser degree the Fibrosure test. Without this type of periodic monitoring, you simply will not know if your liver is getting better, staying the same or getting worse. The biggest problem my doctor has with alternative meds is that it keeps some people who really need SOC from treating. Periodic liver monitoring under the supervision of a good liver specialist should solve that problem.

-- Jim
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Avatar universal
Well said. Nothing irresponsible about suggesting that an herbal regimen may play some role in liver health for the HCV positive patient. Individual points may be modified or challenged, but that's what this place is all about. No one has suggested that herbs can cure hepatitis c, but the jury certainly is still out on the role certain herbs may play.

-- Jim
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Avatar universal
I think some misinformation was posted. I live in Asia and have never heard that Hep C originated from China or is sucessfully treated by herbs.

Hep B is endemic in the region with up to 10% of the population being carriers. And yes its true they mainly treat with herbal remedies.

China also has the highest world liver cancer and cirrhosis rate so you can draw your own conclusions on the success of the herbal treatments.
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Avatar universal
Look, I am not trying to be argumentative.
My original post was to correct and incorrect statement about HepC originating in China and being treated with herbs.

Myself , having lived in Hong Kong for over 10 years , should at least have some perspective on the validity of that statement.

As much as we hate it, we (active posters) should take some responsibility on this site on not disseminating false information. I don't know the stats but wouldn't be suprised in >80% of readers on this site are lurkers.

We should not overinflate peoples expectations and especially steer them away or towards treatment without them seeking professional advice.

Helpful - 0
86075 tn?1238115091
another little detail that I forgot, you attributed to me that "you can stop the progression of the disease" with these regimens...I never said that...that's way more information then I have at my figertips, and besides, people have varying results.....something else I said....all I said is that you can possibly help matters by cutting down on the inflammation caused by the disease, which can possibly help matters on some lab values...along with lifestyle changes, etc...
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Avatar universal
I'm glad you were able to get in a clinical trial. That's wonderful. You will be monitored closely. Good luck with that.

I also took 1 tsp. of utopia silver that caused me to have swollen knuckles and that was a few years ago and they are still swollen. I do not recommend it. It was for lowering the viral load and it did do that.

More people have hepatitis C in China than any other country and they control it with Chinese herbs. Many doctors think much of this hep. C came from there. Yes if you can stop the inflammation you can keep the virus from progressing. That's what Dr. Zhang's herbs do.

My last comment is new and better discoveries and treatments are coming out all the time and we do need to keep an open mind and learn what is working in other countries. Remember the INF/RIBA can cause permanent autoimmune problems and it doesn't even work in 50% of geno 1 patients.

  Naomi Judd who was treated for hep. C 19 years ago (before Riba), used many natural and alternative methods including acupuncture and she was able to achieve SVR. She's a very positive person. Having a good sense of humor and being positive is an important part of healing. I find the Riba makes me negative and she didn't have Riba. Check out her website at www.naomijudd.com
Helpful - 0
Avatar universal
I have no itching or rash (because of the herbs) and some people have had to stop treatment because of those symptoms. I'm on week 32 of 51. 19 more to go.
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86075 tn?1238115091
I don't think I've been irresponsible in saying what I have said, never have I said that herbs/supps cure hepatitis...in fact, I've been pretty judicious in my language...course, I'd think that - but I try...

I'm not given to make blanket statements, though of course I'm not perfect...There are people here, who think it irresponsible to tell everyone that has this disease that they should treat with SOC....yet some people here do....and some people think *that* is reckless advice...

I have no problem with that, because I figure everyone is entitled to their own opinion, which is what this typing mostly is, (apart from supportive comments and chit chat) these are only OPINIONS...We are debating issues, and we frequently don't agree on premises and arguments....this issue is a toughie cause it hasn't been studied near enough, hopefully it will be in the near future...So some of us have to rely on our own experiences and anecdotal information from trusted friends...that's not good enough for a lot of people, that's perfectly fine too...I go my own way and always have...

There are plenty of caveats about the fact that none (or at least the vast majority) of us are experts, and that we should all take whatever advice we see on here as merely advice from non-experts....laymens who are dealing with this disease in all of it's variations....

One thing being around these boards has shown me, that perhaps what your truth is - is not necessarily my truth...hopefully we're all adults here, and know this board for what it is, as an adjunct to helping us formulate opinions....that's all...respectfully...
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86075 tn?1238115091
I have heard you say this before...first of all, China has a much bigger population...how can you determine how many people are actually treating their hepatitis there with herbs? Per capita wise? And how many are actually being helped, as opposed to how many people that are not helped at all in any way? How could anyone keep statistics like this? They certainly don't in this country....What do you mean by "successfully treated"? do you mean cured? or do you mean helping to control symptoms, and possibly inflammation? And all the gradations inherent therein? How could anybody possibly know these variables and percentages?

I allow for the fact that we are all different in our physiologies, and I do think that some people aren't helped by these other regimens...but there are some that are.....kinda like present SOC...cept with SOC you do get an actual "cure" (as relative as that is), at least a percentage of people...but if this isn't possible for someone, at least one can avail themselves of things that "might" at least help...and yes, many people don't know what they are doing in these areas, always something to consider as well....and yes, a lot of it is useless or not good...but not all...though not according to you...

Are you actually contending that no one, anywhere, has ever been helped at all with their hepatitis - by herbs or supplements? That this is ALL a placebo effect on some kind of grand scale? Including the many members who have countered your views presently on the board, and in the past? Interesting....of course, you are totally entitled to you opinion...I just don't see how you could of reached your conclusions, or how anybody could reach conclusions like this, there are way to many unknowns...

and I am totally glad that I have kept an open mind re these issues, and have been willing to look at things on a case by case basis...and that I don't believe in panaceas and cure-alls for the most part...even from conventional medicine, except in some cases...I just don't see what is to be gained in this type of black and white thinking...there are usually too many shades of grey...respectfully...
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Avatar universal
Forsee, If I may. "Jboyk" used the words "succefully treated". You and and "GrandmaA" talked about "being helped" or "controlling" it respecitively. I think all three of you are correct, but just talking about different things. No doubt, while studies are sparse, at least to me it's reasonable that some herbs may be beneficial controlling or helping those with Hep C, but at the same time these herbs don't cure Hep C, i.e. SVR.

-- Jim
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86075 tn?1238115091
Correct....that's why I was asking Jboyk what she/he exactly meant by "successfully treated"...(sorry, don't know the gender and I don't want to assume) ...I don't contend that herbs "cure" Hepatitis, neither does Grandma apparently, or she certainly wouldn't be treating with conventional treatment at present, I'd wager...

So I was merely trying to find out what Jboyk meant by her/his statement...
Cause "sure as shootin," if someone comes on here talking about how these elements might of helped them, etc...Jboyk will come on here to invalidate them a lot of the time...Which is her/his right, I'd just like a "definiton of terms" along with  the naysaying, to better understand her/his arguments...

And of course I'm sick to death of arguing this subject (just as some people are sick of seeing my arguments, ha ha) But I still think that people who have tried SOC and have failed, or people with really good stats and wish to help maintain themselves till they do treat SOC, etc, or whatever, should be able to see intelligent argumentation for these elements, pro and con....to help decide for themselves...

Jim, you've at least tried them to speak on them, and had a negative experience, but you have qualified it and stated that the negative experience *might* of come from other factors, etc, and that you didn't know if you took them properly, etc...I just like a little objectivity, no matter what your opinions are...And there is no way that I can make categorical statments about all people's experiences with herbs in this country...as well as anybody else for any other country, IMHO...

Anywhoo, hope you've hit some good Japanese restaurants lately...lol...
Helpful - 0
86075 tn?1238115091
I'm boring myself with this as I am probably everybody else...I know what I've done and what has benefitted me, and that's probably the most I do know about this, along with all my studying and the people I know of, etc...

One thing I will say, many of your statements, to me, seem to be all encompassing, and I just don't know how you can come to some of your conclusions...there are just way too many factors involved with all of this stuff...to be able to just say, that China has the highest liver cancer rate in the world, mostly due to hepatitis (I guess that's what youre saying?), (they probably have the most in a lot of things, just due to their sheer numbers of people, have you made those type of adjustments?) and that none of these people are helped by herbs, etc etc...these generalities are just way off the mark to me, how could one person possibly know these things?

And yes, I suppose people who have this could get liver cancer even though they have a relatively low grade of damage....and really good labs....but what does that have to do with the original points made here? sometimes it's just better to agree to disagree, and let people decide for themselves as far as the arguments presented here, along with any other knowledge they'd care to incorporate...be well...
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Avatar universal
illo: I used to watch viral loads while doing the herbs, but stopped. The reason being, I had 2 draws that were done erroneously one right after the other for the viral loads. One was 6.2 mil and the one right after was 5.2 mil. Same day, hour and minute. Different results. This happened twice. Once it was 3.4 mil and the 2nd draw was 2.3 mil. I don't know why, but on 2 separate occasions, this happened.
--------------
The test itself can vary up to a log in either direction. See Dr. Mitchell Shiffman's teaching slide presentation at the Clinical Care Options webiste. The variance you report is insiginficant. That said, a two-log difference is significant and that's in part why they don't consider someone responding to the drugs unless they have a two-log drop. Same thing would apply to herbs or other circumstances outside of treatment.

-- Jim
Helpful - 0
86075 tn?1238115091
I like to have continual low liver enzymes, (once I know my stage and other values of course)...I like those to be low...course I'd rather have lower viral load then not as well...won't it be grand when they really get on top of this disease for everyone?
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Avatar universal
"Yes if you can stop the inflammation you can keep the virus from progressing"

This is common sense logic that is unfortunately wrong. Do you that in Hep B (similiar liver dynamics as Hep C) you can be undetectable in viral count in your blood (however it still is slowly replicating in your liver), have normal ALT/AST but still get liver cancer?

If it was true that the herbal treatment has slowed down liver progression then please explain the simple fact that China has the highest liver cancer rate in the world? Wouldn't you expect it to at least be not the worse if the far majority are treating with herbs?
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Avatar universal
Perhaps China has the highest liver cancer rate in the world because it is the most chemically polluted environment place in the world.  

How do you know that most Chinese are using traditional remedies for liver disease now?  I have read that Western medicine has become more popular.

Kit07
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Avatar universal
I've been on Chinese meds for 4 years, am on tx and still on them.  Dr Zhang has some that he says makes the sides more tolerable.  And in my case, right now, they are.

I used to watch viral loads while doing the herbs, but stopped.  The reason being, I had 2 draws that were done erroneously one right after the other for the viral loads.  One was 6.2 mil and the one right after was 5.2 mil.  Same day, hour and minute.  Different results.  This happened twice.  Once it was 3.4 mil and the 2nd draw was 2.3 mil.  I don't know why, but on 2 separate occasions, this happened.  

It does't hurt to take them, and some people do get better and go SVR with them, but most don't.  It's good to try and don't let anyone dissuade you from taking them.  A positive attitude, no matter what your protocol, should be supported.  This is a tough disease and we're all in the same boat and here to help.  What works for you may not work for me, and that's that.

Good Luck!
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86075 tn?1238115091
has  always worked for me too, I stopped my supplements for 3 months once (everything remaining equal, diet, etc) and my lft's went up to the highest they've ever been, went back on the supps and herbs, and it's stayed in the 20's and low 30's...I've been taking them for years, some more once I was diagnosed with this virus...my viral load has never been over 200,000...I know of many other people who have had good results (quantifiable) like me, off then labs get worse, back on they get better, and when my labs are better I seem to feel the best...I firmly think if you take high oxidants all the day, you'll be way better off too, like Green tea...

so thank God for that placebo effect! I just try not to be on a crusade, that all herbs and supps are meaningless or will kill you, or to stay away from conventional medicine cause that'll kill you too (seems some people have to be in either camp) maybe in a few years they will be able to look into many of these products with greater scrutiny and science...after all, many conventional meds (such as aspirin) are found in nature and sythesized and given mass approval...

BTW, I know a few people who take the same Nu-liver and liked it...not to cure of course...
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Avatar universal
A drop from 3.5mio to 1mio , while seems like alot is just within the normal flucutaion of the viral load, irrespective of what treatment you are on (including FDA approved drugs or no treatment of any kind).

But if it makes you feel better then thats great. The placebo effect is very powerful and go for it if works for you.
Helpful - 0
Avatar universal
Frankly, I'm not as hip on the chinese medicine as I might come across.  Actually, treatment with the FDA drugs makes to most sense to me.  On the other hand, I honestly have found Nu-Liver to be helpful, although how does one really measure its effect?  I know I feel better and have--at least most of the time--a better sense of well-being.  Perhaps over a period of a year with close followup it might be possible to gauge. But then again, maybe its just in my head!

Incidentally, since I'm one of the >85 kg crowd, I've decided to give the Hoffman-LaRoche trial a go.  Never been treated, so if I by chance get thrown into one of those double-dosing groups, I'll probably light up like a pinball machine!  :)  
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Avatar universal
i agree that some supplements will help you with certain labs but it is a proven fact that even without taking supplements or lifestyle changes that your viral load will fluctuate on a daily basis. this has more to do with the on going battle between HCV and your immune system, some days your system beats the virus and lowers it and some days it loses and VL rises. if taking supplements makes you feel better then do it but when treating make sure to stop them.
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86075 tn?1238115091
Hi, this is a controversial subject on this board, to say the least..and I've already been through the wars, ha ha! but I do think that lifestyle changes and diet, and certain herbs, supplementation, can help with inflammation, which maybe in turn can help with certain labs? that particular bridge's mechanics are far too complex for me to understand, even the experts can mostly only theorize...people will tell you that these things go up and down naturally, and that it has to do with many other unknowns, genetics, etc...

and I understand that...but I do feel better with my regimens, my better diet, then I do when not doing these things, so what I do is to help with inflammation and my own symptoms...that's mostly all I can say, cause even dipping my toe in this discussion has it's hazards..lol...

there are other boards who talk more openly about these things, this seems to me a very SOC focused board, which is fine...my only problem I have is with people who come on saying this and that is going to CURE people's hep c...which is pretty reckless...and of course, there are herbs that I think are just bad, like Kava Kava, I think Grandma mentioned it...best of luck with this discussion, ha ha! hope youre well and things go well for you...
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Avatar universal
You have a hard name to remember. Welcome to the forum.

I have heard of the herb you are taking but I have not tried it. I have been taking Dr. Zhang's herbs for 4 years now. I have been in treatment since Sept. I'm on my 32nd week and have 19 to go.  You cannot take all the same ones you took before tx while on conventional therapy but he tells you which ones are O.K. It took me a long time to need Procrit  for the rbc and now I don't need it anymore. The side effects are lessened. My labs are tremendous. The nurse wishes everyone had my labs. I spend about $150. a month on herbs and it's worth it. These are Dr. Zhang's own formulas. He's a liver expert and herb specialist. The viral load used to be lowered by dropping the interferon under the tongue. He had the instructions on his website. Now I think you have to call his office in New York. I didn't try it myself. Most of the patients on this forum are not on herbs and some people do not like them at all.
  
I'm almost 65. Geno 1a. Stage 2-3.
  
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