Cleansing the Blood?

[alagirl]

I haven't seen anything on this, probably because its been posted before I found you guys and I just can't find it, but has anyone heard about this method of tx for hep c?  I actually used significant bleeding to remove a large overdose of iron (given IV over a series of weeks by a hematologist who though I had iron deficiency anemia).  It worked great.  Of course, iron isn't a virus that will keep replicating.  

But could this work for chronic hep c patients?  And if so, why hasn't anyone thought of it before, liver dialysis instead of dialysis for renal disease.  I'm asking to be educated here.  Does it follow that if you keep a lower virus level, even if you are a nonresponder, that your liver is damaged less?  Because if that's true, then it seems like some type of dialysis would work unless there's something (probably) about it that I don't understand.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6713252.html

http://www.hepatitis-central.com/hcv/liver/hemotherapies.html

[copyman]

i would personally not chance it. you may end up with more then HCV letting someone mess with your blood in another country! even if they could kill what is in your blood HCV is embedded in many of your organs. the only way i see getting the HCV out of them is to open you up,  remove each organ and expose it to black light :-)  not sure if you would want to go to this extreme. just remember one thing, if there was such a thing that works why would it not be here in the USA? like the old saying "it sounds to good to be true"

[kittyface]

I am corresponding via email with a kidney transplant doctor in India (a world renown MD) who has devised a dialysis transfusing blood through an herbal filter (custom tailored according to the patient's unique immune components) and realigning the immune system so as to clear the HCV virus.  He developed the rx because many of his kidney transplant patients were HCV+ and interferon did not produce the desired results.  He claims his cure rate is 80 - 90% with virtually no side effects.  I've seen before/after labs of one patient who cleared the virus even while being on immunosuppression drugs for transplant.

The doctor wants to conduct clinical studies to explore and disemminate this promising tx but can't come up with the money on his own.  He will treat anybody who will travel to Chennai, India and the tx is reasonable -- only $2,000 for 2 weeks in a hospital, all inclusive.

This sounds intriguing and I have considered it, however, more than one trip may be required six months apart depending on patient response.  I am apprehensive about traveling so far feeling ill and fatigued.  

So there are interesting and creative approaches to slaying the dragon and I bet it won't be long 'til suffering with HCV will be but a memory.

Best wishes to everyone.

Kittyface

[whinybutwell]

Remember them?  I'm looking at them!   And my lava lamp, and my bead curtains, and my hookah and india print bedspread.....Ok, i only still have the bedspread.  But i do think black light is the answer.  Or maybe it was the cause....lol.

[jmjm530]

You too. Yikes!

[copyman]

lol, funny chit jim. i remember my room with posters & black lights.

[alagirl]

I like the looks of this Japanese deal.  I'm going to contact those guys and see what they're up to with it since the ap was in 2004.  

My old boss owns a machine that autoclaves and pulverizes large amounts of medical waste, sharps and other medical waste and renders it in a sanitized version that can be dumped without fears of contamination.  Its for hospitals.  At any rate, I LOVE machines and tech and computers.  Right.  I think everyone already has grasped that I love to look at the science behind everything. LOL

One of these days, we may be curing diseases with little nanobots that we shoot into the bloodstream.  Would be fun to see in my lifetime.

[alagirl]

you owe me a new keyboard.  I just spit diet coke all over it I was laughing so hard.

[Forseegood]

I think these new things they are coming up with are great, even if they are just in preliminary stages...if you think about it, many people have at least tamped down the virus, and bought themselves a few years (even if they didn't SVR) by enduring 48 weeks of treatment...I know some...if they could do the same thing by not having to endure this many times unfriendly treatment, more to the good....

if they could keep at least keep the virus in check, as they do with protease inhibitors for HIV, by any method necessary, it would be a great thing for people who multiple relapse or don't respond to conventional treatment....At the very least, it seems, they are now throwing some things at this virus, like never before...more shall be revealed I'm sure...

[jmjm530]

I think the concept is to get the virus "high" by bomarding it with black light like back in the sixties possibly piping Jimmey Hendrix in the background. That way, the virus will use up most of its energy looking for munchies as opposed to harming the host.

-- Jim

[copyman]

dont think it will help with a virus that produces up to one trillion virions a day! i did not read the links but have read about studies that cycle the blood through ulta violet lights, etc. the thing is with HCV is how fast it replicates and how hard it is to kill.  this is why they are having a hard time finding a cure.

[alagirl]

Yeah.  Let me know how that no stress thing works out for ya.  lol then tell me your secret! ;)

Hope goes well with the doc, and good luck txing!

[HappyDeb]

Sorry, I hit the wrong button. I feel that this could be a good thing, especially for slow and non responders. I feel that Iron plays a big part with this virus. I recently had to stop my tx. due to a really bad rash and that , at 12 weeks, I only dropped 2 n 1/2 log. Went from 7 million to 4.2 million. I asked them to take a ferritin tect to check my level of iropn, and it came back elevated , 250 count. Normal is around 150. So it makes me wonder that , maybe too, iron can be a part of getting to SVR ? Noone really knows, do they, but is an interesting debate. I have an appt. to go see Dr. Eugene Schieff at the university of miami on Jan. 30th , I am so happy, maybe I will have a chance of SVR, too, if I can be treated by someone who knows. I will keep my fingers crossed. I also think that diet has a big inpact on this virus, and also STRESS !!!! Which we cannot run from, but I bet while treatring, if we cannot have ANY STRESS, that would also help too. Oh well, that's my two cents.

[alagirl]

will do. thanks for the site!

The interesting thing.  And I KNOW I am being persistent about this but the concept is so cool.  The interesting thing about this Japanese machine is that it tags hep c cells.  Purportedly.  And then chelates them out with possibly a temperature based module, and the machine is used in conjunction with interferon.  So it purports to be able to actually cure hep c, and if it did work, it would so much shorten the tx time.

But, definitely I was thinking already that if I am not able to clear for some reason, I might look into some of the dialysis options available elsewhere just to keep my liver going longer.

[Xhrles]

Try www.arbios.com or look up vital therapies which has a machine in testing in China. They are a San Diego company and I read about them in Business week. Keep them on file for a worst case scenario which I hope to avoid. The machines take the load off the liver so it can recuperate but don't do anything for the virus but there should be effective drugs within a couple of years. Sure hope so

[alagirl]

I do! I was happy to see your post!  I was just saying that the first 2000 group were using the dialysis on liver patients with damage, and it looked like possibly hepc patients too possibly.  but it was hopeful to me that upon me going back and looking at the Japanese patent ap, its apparently primarily to treat hepc.  

that may mean, and I don't know, which is why I'm really asking for any info, that the Japanese followed and refined some of the work done at the Universities I mentioned above and as you said, possibly in other countries, over the intervening years.  I personally think this is really exciting science.  IF the Japanese method or something close to it worked it would mean a radically shortened treatment with far less toxic side effects.

But even if it couldn't promise a cure, it would seem (to me) that it might still offer ways to give the liver a break from toxins so it could stay healthier for longer for chronic patients.  

[Forseegood]

just trying to help, you said you wanted to know anything anybody knew about these things, sorry. Interesting though.

[alagirl]

this patent for the Japanese machine appears to be very specifically for hepc treatment.

[alagirl]

on the patent that was filed in 2004 for this machinery, based, I feel possibly on some of this earlier work - but who knows - they do claim it helpful for hcv.

The dialysis unit used in the above article is kind of interesting.  It filters through microscopically fine charcoal to chelate but has some screen that keeps the charcoal from ever making actual contact with the blood.

The patent, filed by a Japanese appears to be a treatment comprised of several days of heat and chelation dialysis, as well as interferon.  The company says the following:

"What is claimed is:

1. A method for removing and reducing HCV from the blood of an HCV-infected patient, which comprises carrying out, once a day for at least 5 straight days, a treatment of bringing the blood into contact with an adsorptive carrier having a higher affinity for infected, activated and/or defective leukocytes than for uninfected leukocytes.

2. The method of claim 1, wherein the adsorptive carrier additionally has an affinity for HCV.

3. The method of claim 2, wherein the blood is separated into plasma and other components and the plasma is brought into contact with the adsorptive carrier.

4. The method of claim 3, wherein the plasma after treatment is returned to the body from which it is taken out.

5. The method of claim 1, wherein the adsorptive carrier has complement activating action.

6. The method of claim 1, wherein the adsorptive carrier has a contact angle to water within a range of from 55 to 95.degree..

7. The method of claim 1, wherein the treatment of bringing the blood into contact with the adsorptive carrier is conducted once a day for 5 to 15 straight days.

8. The method of claim 1, wherein the blood is treated in an amount of 300 to 3000 mL/once.

9. The method of claim 1, wherein one treatment of bringing the blood into contact with the adsorptive carrier is conducted for 10 minutes to 10 hours at a rate of 5 to 200 mL/min.

10. The method of claim 1, wherein the blood after treatment is returned to the body from which it is taken out.

11. The method of claim 1, wherein the treatment of bringing the blood into contact with the adsorptive carrier is continued until the blood HCV level, as measured by the RT-PCR method, becomes below 100 KIU/mL.

12. A method of treating HCV infection, which comprises carrying out, once a day for at least 5 straight days, a treatment of bringing the blood of an HCV-infected patient into contact with an adsorptive carrier having a higher affinity for infected, activated and/or defective leukocytes than for uninfected leukocytes and then administering interferon to the patient. "


Now.  I am having difficulty dismissing this out of hand.  It looks very interesting to me.

[Forseegood]

Hi, if you see that movie "Rockstar" (not saying that you have to sit through it, lol, I'll try to sum up the scene in question for you) the aspiring rock star is talking to an old rock star from the 60s, with implied advanced cirrhosis (guess from living a hard and fast rock star life) and he's hooked up to a machine that is a liver dialysis machine.

Not sure how much this has to do with what you're talking about, but it's interesting to me anyway, and within the realm of this discussion, I think. Supposedly, they have these machines at very high end clinics, particularly in Europe, particularly in Switzerland from what I know. It has been stated that Frank Sinatra, and other rich celebrity's, etc. (Kieth Richards comes to mind) do this routinely to help keep their livers in tact, I've read as much in biographies. I don't know how much of it is true, or how effective these machines are. That's really all I know, and it's admittedly sketchy.  This is more about alcoholic cirrhosis, etc I should think.

[mikesimon]

I apologize for not reading the article before posting. I generally do but since I hadn't seen anything regarding dialysis in the context of HCV I neglected to look at it. My initial take is that removing toxins from the blood is quite different from removing a virus within the cells of the blood. It seems like this would help someone who ingested a liver toxic drug or food or substance but whether this could be applicable to treating HCV seems doubtful to me. But, I'm not an expert so I could be very wrong. Mike

[alagirl]

to me, with this info from one of the links I posted, it still looks to me as though it could have some efficacy.  I think this a 2000 article though.  

"The Liver Dialysis Unit has been used for the treatment of over 150 patients to date. Data collection continues, but the results are compelling enough that since the launch of the product this past May 1999, a number of institutions have already chosen to include Liver Dialysis ( as part of liver disease management.

Sites include:

Tulane
University of Tennessee-Bowld
University of Texas- San Antonio
Loyola University
University of Iowa
California Pacific Medical Center
University of California at San Diego
New York University

"The Liver Dialysis Unit offers an important new therapeutic option at a time when liver disease is the tenth leading cause of death among adults in the United States. Forty percent of chronic liver disease is related to Hepatitis C Virus (HCV) infection. This type of liver disease is the most frequent indication for liver transplantation among adults, and an estimated four million persons now show evidence of HCV infection. Most HCV-infected persons are aged 30 to 49 years, and thus approaching the age at which complications from chronic liver disease typically occur. These and millions of other patients who suffer from various forms of chronic liver disease are at greatly increased risk of liver failure.

In recent years, several companies have undertaken research with BioArtificial livers (devices that contain either liver cells or cells taken from either pigs or human tumors). Ongoing clinical evaluation will determine if these technologies are effective, however, it is not yet clear whether they can be made practical for routine use. In any case, it is expected that they will not be available for anything other than experimental use for many years.

While not a cure and not effective in every case, the Liver Dialysis Unit offers new hope for people who suffer potentially life-threatening damage to this complex, vital organ with its unique ability to regenerate—when given the chance."

Then, when I see that there has been a patent applied for another machine of this nature - this still looks compelling to me.

[desrt]

The virus cleansing technology was discussed here several months ago. You can probably find the thread in the archives. I haven't heard that it's yet been proven to have any therapeutic or long term value.

[alagirl]

I'm sorry, I think I wasn't clear.  Thats what happens when you post late at night.  The bloodletting was a method of chelation for me when I had a pretty severe iron overdose.  I wasn't advocating or asking about that for hepc

But if you follow the links, they aren't talking about bloodletting, they are patenting new equipment to basically do ongoing liver dialysis, such as is done with kidney patients, to remove hepc and consistently keep the levels low, if I'm not mistaken.  Now scientifically, I think its possible this could be an effective treatment, even if its not a cure and I'm wondering why it wouldn't be.

[mikesimon]

You ask: "Does it follow that if you keep a lower virus level, even if you are a nonresponder, that your liver is damaged less?"

I haven't seen any convincing studies that suggest that viral load correlates with liver damage. I think this issue is pretty well settled.  Furthermore, active HCV replicates so fast that I doubt that blood letting could ever keep pace with viral replication so as to maintain a lower viral load, assuming that a low viral load was a viable approach to ameliorating the liver damage of HCV. Mike