DR Burton continue

Sorry got bump off........... he claims he has been  treating using the triple therapy for Hep C, The therapy consists of three nutritional supplements taken in divided doses 2 times a day...I want to give him a call I found his number on the web which is 505-524-3720...the 3 are

[Tallblonde]

I've been taking those supplements for about a year and have had very significant improvement in my viral load and liver enzymes.  However, I'm not deluding myself into thinking that this approach will eradicate the virus.  Nor should you.

Susan

[Tallblonde]

Rosemary,

There's a product you can purchase online from Vitacost called "Healthy Liver -- Version 2".  It has all of the correct dosages for the "triple therapy" along with other ingredients that are good -- and safe -- for people with Hepatitis C.  That's what I take. Go to vitacost.com

Susan

[cuteus]

there is no correlation with viral load and amount of liver damage or symptoms according to the studies I read. High viral load has no correlation to higher liver damage.  The only valuable viral load is zero/negative. The only proven way to get there is interferon combo therapy.

[Califia]

Yes, true, but what about enhancing liver function, which typically takes a hit with a live virus eating up liver cells?   You could say that the antioxidant approach is compensatory, and that in itself is pretty darn important, me thinks.

[scruffy]

You are both right! The prize will be divided evenly and is in the mail as we speak! frank

[scruffy]

Susan, as usual, You are a font of information and a friend. frank

[Tallblonde]

Thanks Sruffman!  Hey, don't forget the white tea :)

Susan

[cuteus]

have anyone done a study of persons pursuing this and attaining damage reversal, or do we mostly have personal experiences?
the power of antioxidants is been studied over and over and it does seem to have a valid place in prevention of cell damage.  

It worries me that people are equating low enzymes and VL with reversal of hep c damage without actual medical data. Then they feel "secure" in their regimen and dismiss any proven method of erradication. I NEVER had abnormal liver readings and had low vl. Damage was mild to the liver but symptoms were escalating and the low vl did nothing to ensure an EVR. Can't focus too much on these numbers.

[Tallblonde]

Although personal anecdotes aren't on par with scientific research, they do have some value.  When the time comes for me to pursue conventional treatment, I'd much rather go into it with low enzymes and a low viral load.  The latter, in particular, has been associated with a higher liklihood of achieving SVR.

I understand your concern about people putting too much stock in numbers and getting a false sense of security from them.  On the other hand, I think it's important to consider non-responders and relaspers who need something to hold onto until more effective treatments come along.  If we completely dismiss these alternative approaches (in spite of the compelling anecdoctal evidence -- see Califia's account below), then we take ALL hope away from them.

Susan

[cuteus]

we were just discussing that very same stat (low vl) giving an advantage, and so far I counted 4 of us for which this did not work. Judi (did not clear at 12 wks), some new member that recently posted (no neg pcr at 12 wks), Don L (relapsed) and me.  If we can't rely on the controlled studies results how can we rely on anecdotes?

[cuteus]

and yet, all four of us are also anecdotes or are we stats?

round and round...

[Tony-z]

   I have been on both of those supplements, plus a couple more for years. I had a viral load of 7,000,000 when I started my last TX, BX showed stage 3 Fibrosis, Grade 2 inflammation.

I don't know what they have done for me physically, but do believe I am the better for the taking of them.



I agree have to agree with cuteus. Scruffy has the right concept...

                  God Bless

                   TonyZ

[rosemary_m2]

I agree  with cuteus I have to  have some kind of hope I cannot do the treatments It was very horrible for me I have a sever handicapped 13 year old son that I have to care for. I don't know my viral numbers or antigen numbers all I know I found out I had this creepy HEP C ,i FOUND OUT ABOUT 4 YEARS AGO. AND i HAVE TRIED 2 KINDS OF TREATMENTS BOTH WERE HORRIBLE. i HAVE HAD A LIVER BIOPSY DONE UNFORNUATELY THEY COULD NOT FIND A GOOD PIECE OF LIVER AND ALL i KNOW IS MY NUMBERS ARE IN THE MILLIONS MY dr DOES NOT TELL ME MUCH, i HAVE A APPT WITH HIM IN A COUPLE OF MONTHS HOPEFULLY HE WILL DO BLOOD WORK AGAIN WHAT SHOULD i ASK HIM ALL?uNTIL THEN i WANT TO TRY SOMETHING TO HELP THE LIVER i KNOW THIS IS NO CURE BUT THE TREATMENTS ARE NOT GURANTEE EITHER PLS HELP ALL WITH ADVICE THANX SO MUCH ROSE

[Califia]

Sensible lass, how can I disagree?   Actually I think Berkson published a little pilot study--might be referenced in the "nutrition" section in the Hep C Choices handbook I mentioned in the thread below.   He's a straight M.D. and never claimed to have found a "cure."   And yes, this disease is damnably complicated.  In my case it was kind of easy to track it over the years:  elevations always corresponded exactly w/ how much fatigue I was feeling.  And I've always had the dubious gift of feeling the inflammatory process in my liver.  When I  pursued my alt. protocol  the enzymes hovered just above normal and when I discontinued they doubled.  Little or no inflammation meant lack of  fibrosis progression, as recorded by 6 biopsies over the years.   But normal enzymes and low VL--that's really flying below the radar.   So you're right about the importance of  offering the fullest explanations possible to people who are new to all the quirks of the game.  But I would rather have someone take antioxidants than not--it's definitely a given, as far as I'm concerned.

[cuteus]

Agreed. antioxidants can't be a  wrong choice. All our organs will benefit for sure.

and I had the dubious distinction of being "normal" throughout. Hah! I thought I was a hypochondriac for the longest time...

[Califia]

Our messages crossed, and I  want  you to know that you have my full concern and sympathy.  I am the last surviving member of my family to manage the care of a handicapped relative --  my mother's brother who was bitten by a mosquito in Chicago in the late 1920s and suffered severe retardation as a result.   Three generations of my family have sacrificed heavily to protect him and see him safely into his 80s.   You carry a heavy load, lady.  I know it's not easy.

There are two treatment goals, as far as I can tell.  One is complete eradication of the virus.  Failing that, there is controlling progression, which is a worthy end in itself.   My own experience w/ Traditional Chinese Medicine shows that it can be done, although of course it falls outside the conventional scientific paradigm.  (And you have to really put your shoulder to it, by the way.   Occasional pill popping just won't do it.)   But to return for a moment to conventional medicine,  it strikes me as odd that you don't have usable biopsy results.   And since your doctor lacks readable tissue specimens, why has he not performed a Fibrosure test?    Certainly it would set your mind at ease to find out what level of damage your liver has sustained, if any.  Peace of mind is so very important in the management of chronic illness.  And of course you have to feel like you are doing SOMETHING and not just passively letting the disease have its way with you.   Especially if the SOMETHING consists of taking anti-oxidants and anti-inflammatory substances which have centuries of  empirical use and detailed documentation behind them.    Controlling the inflammatory response is the key.

Rosemary, I'm on treatment now and very gung ho about it, as folks here know.  But I could not treat in the very recent past because my family responsibilities were just too great,  and I understand and support anyone who cannot treat yet again or even at all.   We do what we can, when we can do it.   Just please don't give in to despair.   I know you feel overwhelmed but really, there are solutions out there.   And sometimes half-measures are better than none at all.

[Aubbie]

WOW! I GET so educated by all of your comments WOW! THANKS, GOD Bless , Aubbie

[Califia]

Just wanted to comment on one thing, which illustrates how hard it is to process information that comes our way.  

Re the Vit E controversy, you wrote:  " it has also been associated with higher death rates in higher quanities...my dr said the issue is still debated."

Yep, my tx nurse tried to warn me away from Vitamin E on the basis of this same study.  But here's the rub:  the study cohort was sick and elderly--I forget what the common disease was--and the data came from a number of combined studies w/ different inclusion criteria, which is not considered good study design.    It seems nothing can be taken at face value.

[snook_man]

Hmmm, nice little debate here.

Well first off, I'm a low, low VL at 4000, and I was clear at week 12. Dr's think I cleared as early as week 4 when labs improved. Also, I have stayed clear since.

But my Low VL did not help my liver damage, or did it? I am 27 years old, and stage 2/3.. No bridging present, but foci suspicious of bridging.. Now every study and article on the net suggests that the average mean time for a male to progress to cirrhosis is 30 years.. I had it since birth, drank like a fish for about 10 years, somked marujuana heavily, and did not eat healthy at all.

As for antoxidants, I strongly recommend them. When I started my protocol of supplements, my VL droped from 5462 to 4000 in 5 months. My Alts went from 97 to 62.. My AST's went from 42 to 31.. Also my Platelets and over all CBC's improved and I felt alot healthier..

Currently I'm on Tx myself, because I want this DRAGON dead!! I'm not looking to suppress him or halt further damage, I'm looking for total viral DEATH!! Had my liver been in better shape, had I been older or unable to tx for some reason, I would definately continued on with supplementation. God forbid this round of tx doesn't do it for me, I'll be refilling my scripts with supplements, and not Peg for sure!!

[rosemary_m2]

THE 3 ARE LIPOIC ACID, SILYMARIN, SELENIUM i READ A ARTICLE THAT A MAN NAMED JACK FOLLOW HIS ADVICE AND HIS BLOOD TEST SHOWED THAT HIS VIRAL LOAD AND ANTIGEN LEVELS HAD FALLEN SO MUCH THAT HE NO LONGER NEEDE THE INTERFERON. CAN THIS BE TRUE PLS HELP ME TO KNOW IF THIS IS TRUE ALL. THANX SO MUCH FOR ALL OF YOUR REPLIES

[Tallblonde]

The media is part of the problem.  They often treat alternative medicine with the same approach they use to cover celebrities: First they love to build them up and then they love to tear them down. There's shock value to headlines that scream: "Vitamin E Kills!"  Yet, as Califia pointed out, a closer inspection of the actual study reveals that the participants were senior citizens WITH heart disease. Dr. Andrew Weil has been very publicly critical of this kind of hype that scares people away -- in an instant -- from using a very beneficial vitamin.

Susan

[LvdByGod!]

put me down as a person who started with a low viral load 600,000 iu and i did not clear by 6 months, (had viral breakthrough, type 3a). i also had stage 3 grade 3 bridging 2 at start of tx according to my biopsy at that time.

my only concern with adding certain herbal treatments on tx is the uncertainty of how it effects tx...

my only other concern with ncams is that we may find out later something hurt the liver instead of helped it...

for example vitamin e has been debated for use by hepatologists...as it can cause liver fat build up but it also is shown to help fatty liver... it has also been associated with higher death rates in higher quanities...my dr said the issue is still debated.

because there is no regulation for many things and many things are not tested with tx it seems safer to hold off on herbals and unnecessary alternatives durring tx...

i used lots of liver ncams durring the first year of tx against my drs judgement and did have viral clearance problems... so this second year of tx has been with minimal ncams...just a multivitamin no iron and one vit e 400 mg...my alt and ast and viral load did not go up when i went off the ncams at all...

but, i do eat very healthy foods vegies and fruits with lots of antioxidents and fiber...fish...chicken...turkey...flax seeds...teas

[LvdByGod!]

yes i agree completely...you never know what to believe by the time your done reading it all...

this is why i still do take a vit e...i have heard alot more good than bad...esp concerning fatty liver which i have...even though one of my drs said not to take it.

but it still scares me to think that some things are said to be good only to be said the opposite of later...call me a worry wort i know!

i guess the kava thing freaked me out too because i used to take it nightly for about a year then found out it caused liver damage...i was so mad!

used to take melatonin and found out it messes with the immune system...

used to take st johns wort and found out it can mess with interferon tx action...

dr put me on trazadone and preached how safe it was then i found out it has caused liver failure...felt betrayed there.

so who knows who, what, or when to believe?

i'll believe you gals anytime though!!! ;O)

[Califia]

Tripping through the minefield....

[LvdByGod!]

i know i'm trippin!

><(((

[Tony-z]

That a great picture!!! Three Fish.

I see it as a version of the Father Son and Holy Spirit.


                     God Bless.


                         TonyZ

[scruffy]

Keyboard art! You made me SMILE. frank

[Tallblonde]

I take the recommended dosage of 6 capsules a day.  I take two in the morning; two mid-afternoon; and two before I go to bed.  The blurb at the Vitacost site doesn't really do justice to this product.  It implies that it's mainly intended for protection against alcohol consumption.  

I did a lot of research for just the right supplement that contained all of the primary liver-protective ingedients (milk thistle, selenium, alpha lipoic acid, B-vitamins, etc.) and was affordable. "Healthy Liver-Version 2" from Vitacost was the best, hands down, in my opinion.  

Susan

[rosemary_m2]

thanx for your advice.... how many of the liver 2 pills do you take in one day,,,also at what times of the day? I belive this is what I will start to take thanx so much rose

[GOLF]

Any thoughts about taking Healthy Liver Version 2 during interferon treatment?

[Tallblonde]

I responded in the thread above.

Best wishes to you.

Susan

[LvdByGod!]

COOL THOUGHT!!!

[cuteus]

you really should find out the extent  of your liver damage before committing to waiting and taking supplementations as an alternative to tx.  If you have advance damage, it is not going to benefit your children to have you at ESLD.