Disease or not

[GrandOak]

Let's see, from the United States government National Library of Medicine website at:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/alcoholism.html

We find the following:

Alcoholism, also known as “alcohol dependence,” is a disease that includes four symptoms:

Craving: A strong need, or compulsion, to drink.
Loss of control: The inability to limit one’s drinking on any given occasion.
Physical dependence: Withdrawal symptoms, such as nausea, sweating, shakiness, and anxiety, occur when alcohol use is stopped after a period of heavy drinking.
Tolerance: The need to drink greater amounts of alcohol in order to “get high.”

Pretty much sounds like it's classified as a disease to me.  Draw your own opinions, but sounds like the medical communitiy has a different one and they usually rely upon scientific fact rather than on the anecdotal evidence of someones grandpa.

It was appearing more to me that someone must have been hurt somewhere by another with a drinking problem and has an axe to grind.

[jboyhk]

The crux is in the definition of 'disease'. According to the American Heritage Stedman's Medical Dictionary is doesn't fit.

dis·ease (d-zz)
n.
A pathological condition of a body part, an organ, or a system resulting from various causes, such as infection, genetic defect, or environmental stress, and characterized by an identifiable group of signs or symptoms.

The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary, 2nd Edition Copyright © 2004 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved


It would seem to an addiction


ad·dic·tion (-dkshn)
n.
Habitual psychological or physiological dependence on a substance or practice beyond one's voluntary control.

The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary, 2nd Edition Copyright © 2004 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

[jboyhk]

The jury is still not out on this!! Literaly!

"However, the disease theory is still controversial and there is disagreement on the issue after 200 years of debate. U.S. Supreme Court decisions, books and scientific journal articles demonstrate this lack of consensus"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease_Theory_of_Alcoholism

[compulsive]

While it is interesting to debate the Alcoholism question "disease, additcion, or simple weak character and faulty self esteem".  The facts are that it kills people, ruins lives, and the person aflicted with it needs every support trick in the book.  

AA and other support groups, good personal counseling, forums like this, ANYTHING they can use to feel and act instead of taking a drink. It does not matter what any non-aflicted person thinks about why they are a drunk.  The fact is they ARE a drunk.

They do not need coddling it is true - their drink of choice offers all the coddling and love they could wish for.

I think of  Alcoholism is similar to a parasitic infection - the parasite insinuates itself on or in the host and generally fools the system by killing any pain it causes while sucking the life out of the host.  By the time the host has any idea that it is dying the parasite is so enmeshed in the system that any attempt at removal is very painful and, in some cases of severe infestation, - life threatening.

Any person attempting to kick this affliction needs encouragement to feel whatever it is they are feeling no matter howw uncomfortable it may be for them.  

They allready have a multitude of issues about their lacks, their inertia, their worthiness.  Most successfull programs encourage self examination, making amends, and positive participation in the larger community.  

They allready have a multitude of issues about their lacks, their inertia, their worthiness.  Most successfull programs encourage self examination, making amends, and positive participation in the larger community.  


Addictions to substances like alchohol, herion, cocaine
(sp?), meth etc. are extreemly unattractive to the population at large.  

These individuals tend to break more laws, more social rules, look unkempt, be moody, and have little or no control of their impulses. Very unattractive.  

Since we can all see that if they would simply stop (whatever they are addicted to) they would be a beautiful person.... why don't they stop and join us?    So easy - so hard.

Even harder to watch happen to someone you love.

no matter how much you would like to be able to - you cannot MAKE another person stop (whatever the addiction is).

They have to do it themselves - they must decide and make the effort.  

The best thing you can do is NOT ENABLE them - this means - point out that it is the (whatever they are addicted to) ruining their lives - not the cops, the job, the crying spouse, lack of money etc.

DO NOT try to  "fix" their problems for them - you can't   Giving a drunk money, a free place to stay, a car (oh pleasedon't) etc. is simply allowing them to continue the cycle.

This does not mean you shouldn't show compassion.

If anyone here is involved emotionally with an addict they should do two things - join al-anon or any support group for people affected by addiciton in their lives (there are quite a few out there) and get counseling from an addictions counselor (there are many good ones out there).  

YOU cannot "cure" the addict - only they can cure themselves.

And they must desire a cure with their total being.

Not all human souls are capable of this - and anyone emotionally involved with an addict will need support to deal with the loss of their loved one (whether or not the person is dead - they are lost to those around them).

This subject (addiction) is huge, the repercussions in society endless, and the reason HCV has the stigma it does is that it has the reputation of being an addicts disease.  The - why don't they just stop - never start - thought is ever present in the MAJORITY of peoples minds.  


WOW.  I guess I really DID need to rant... thanks for your patience if you actually read all the way through this post...

[desrt]

I hesitate to use the term 'disease' for anything that isn't like leprosy or cancer, but the term 'disease of the spirit' that I've heard many times in 12 step meetings makes sense to me. By both GO's and jboyhk's definitions I have a disease, but I prefer to believe that each morning when my feet hit the floor I have a 'choice' to live my life in a spiritual manner or not.

[desrt]

Happy T'Day y'all and may the Great Spirit be with you and yours.

[timedog]

Just because it is a Disease does not mean there are not choices you can make to help you deal with it. Like some one who has Asthmas and choses not to smoke or some one who has an allergy and avoids the things they are allergic to.

[cuteus]

I agree that the term disease is thrown about at almost everything, and that for some it becomes an excuse to not do anything about their condition.  I prefer to use the term addiction when related to that behavior.  The term 'condition' when referring to GERD or IBS.  I do think that the word 'disease' has been expanded to include almost anything nowadays.
Alcohol and drug addiction are both physiological and psychological.  NOt just one or the other.  Take away the physical craving, now you must rearrange the psychic to withstand the return to old habits of coping.  No one has all the answers, but addicts do choose to go back to the substance that takes them away and alter the reality that they don't like.  7 yrs of living with a heroin addict. and seeing him go back after being "clean' did look like a selfish behavior of just thinking about getting 'high'. How can I think a gene is making him go back after his system cleared the traces of heroin?
This person did not want his reality without beer and heroin.  Inpatient stays at Phoenix, and many other programs, yrs of staying clean from narcotics but continuing the beer, and then returning to the high tells me that, for some addicts, it is the reality they prefer and like. they would rather see a legalization of that state rather than seeing it called a disease.
Many can function in that state and be productive, but many become a problem of the medical system and/or society.

[moveabove]

I'm going to have Thanks giving with my family.  As I was taking a shower I thought "you know, I should eat an extra 2 ribas and that will get me right"  
Rev, How so your night with the turky ? Are you know going to preform the praying mantis ritual ?   Your working today?

[bobbyullc]

i think you nailed it saying i do not have the choice whether i drink today or not, BUT i do have the choice of starting the day with prayer, meditation and an aa meeting. also amen on NOT enabling an alcoholic. my eskimo(rescuer) was a 6'6" chp officer on the side of route 33 in california. if he drove me home instead of to jail i would be dead now. wish i could find him to thank,,,i tried years later.

happy thanksging to all...hope your appetitie is up to it.

bobby

[St. George]

Do you consider it in the same category as cancer,HIV, HEPC,typhoid,etc.  Also, do you believe in sexoholics,gambleroholics, etc.  Lets get real all these addictions aren't diseases but human weakness.  We are pleasure driven animals and like are indulgences and than whine when they get out of control.

[compulsive]

You certainly have a cunning use of the english language in an argument.  Your style is, however, inflammatory.  I assume this is meant to get people excited enough to do some actual brain work.  Of course I am aware of the truth in the old saw that states "when you assume you make an A-- out of...", so I am asking - Why so inflammatory?

[compulsive]

And yes, it is true it is a disease according to the Mayo Clinic.
Almost universally acccepted in the medical world (with the exception of a few quacks and closed minded individuals).

[Forseegood]

I hope you have a nice thanksgiving, already said my lot on this...I look at issues as being very complicated because human beings are very complicated, and not any two human beings are totally alike, same with alcoholics...I have no problem with alcoholism being classified as a disease, never said I did. Semantics.

Oh yeah, I don't need any help from anybody, to me this is a discussion and support group, not a dodgeball game...I'm not on any "team." I don't believe in personal attacks for the sake of them....I believe in point by point argumentation for the sake of trying to resolve or discuss issues....I...at least...*try* to leave the personality politics out of it. I like to think I quit that in high school.

Will leave you with this little ditty though...

1st man said to the Second man "I have two dogs fighting in my chest, the postitive and the negative."

The Second man asked, "Who is winning?" The 1st man answered, "The one I feed."

[compulsive]

I am new to posting here but have been lurking for a while.  When the individual Moytoy made their statement and was pretty much blasted by several people...I couldn't refrain from saying something.  I have now been folllowing this argument.  I also have HEP C and have been treating for 3 months this Monday.

[compulsive]

Good enough.  Thanks for the explanation.  I HAVE been very impresed with the accuracy of the information given here.  

err...Lets see if I can doo this properly:

HCV type 1b
will have been treating for three months this monday

pre TX viral load very low (has nothing to do with damage)
Pegasys (vials) 180 1x per week, rib(darn neverr COULD spell) 400 am and 400pm.  Not having another viral load til next week,
am extremely anemic and my doctor wants to keep me this way.
doing it to buy time...
Non drinker (never could do the stuff), wild youth (Iam 49 ) but did nothing since then.

Not a clue as to when, how, or how long I've had this, could have been any time from birth til I found out about it. It started killing me with a vengance right after they botched my gallbladder surgery and damaged my bile ducts 18 months ago...

[compulsive]

Whew.  amazing how hard it was to "say" all that....

[compulsive]

I am one of those crazy people who (up til recently) goes out onto the street and attempts to give MEANINGFUL assistance to the lost ones.  Now I am just trying to hang on and maintain whatever grace  I can under pressure.

[timedog]

Alcoholism and Drug Addiction is not the same thing. Explain then how someone can genetically predisposed to alcoholism? Weak I am afraid is not the right term either. By experience, observation and study you cannot over come alcoholism on shear will power alone. It is these kinds of statements that are detrimental to the alcoholic seeking to recover.

[Forseegood]

Semantical and "either/or" argumentation once again...alcoholism  "can be" a learned behavior, and/or a chemical imbalance (seratonin, dopamine levels and the lack thereof, etc. factor heavily in many alcoholics)...Human beings are imprinted many traits and behaviors by the time they are 5 years old and in the process of formulating their personalities (many experts think) so if your growing up in a house with both or either parent an alcohoic, there is a much greater chance that you will be one, any "genetic component" is still being studied.....

Many alcoholics are self-medicating "mental syndromes and disorders", if you will, like bi-polar disorder and severe to moderate depression...it's a big mixed bag of things that play out differently in one alcoholic to the next...I wouldn't short-change this by calling it merely a weakness that can be easily worked-out...I feel that if it were simply this, there wouldn't be so many people wrecking their lives over and over trying to quit on their own....sobriety can be accomplished, that being a complicated issue as well...

I'm no expert by any means, but I trained as a drug and alcohol counselor for teen-age alcoholic/drug addicts over the course of a summer, no big deal, but I do think I know a "little" something about this...just a little....I do feel one thing strongly though, many of these issues are not simply "black or white" and are very complicated, prob depends on the particular alcoholic youre talking about....

[Forseegood]

well Rev, join the club, cause I wonder about you too...if you read my post carefully, I wasn't in any real disagreement with anybody, except the point that was made about it simply being a weakness...I simply pointed out the fact that this is a mixed-bag of complications...we all know by now, for every clinic or expert that thinks this way, another expert thinks that way...I think you've made this point before more than once...

[gramma jen]

"Dry Drunk"

Definition: A colloquial term generally used to describe someone who has stopped drinking, but who still demonstrates the same alcoholic behaviors and attitudes.
Also Known As: Dry, Not Sober
Examples: His behavior hasn't changed at all, he acts like a dry drunk.

[chcnme]

Great reading.  I liked what everyone said, and I especially liked what Compulsive and Foreseegood contributed.  As far as whether alcoholism is a "disease" or not, I used to have mixed feelings on it. I think alcoholism was named a "disease" because of the manifestations of the disease processes seen mostly with long term use of alcohol.  As a "disease", though, it gets little or no respect as a "disease" for those who need help on account of this disease.  Take, for example, those alcoholics who cannot stop drinking  (and there are those who can't)  who have alcoholic hepatitis or fatty liver or cirrhosis due to life-long alcoholism.  They will have one heck of a time proving their "disease" is why they can no longer work.  I have a friend - one of the best and kindest souls on earth who worked hard all of his life.  He's 54 and had to quit work two years ago because he is so sick from complications of alcoholism.  He does not have Hep C.  He has cirrhosis, acites (ascites), varicies, had two bleed outs in less than a year's time, is emaciated -- very sick.  He applied for SSDI two years ago (and it's not looking too good even with the aforementioned diagnoses.)  Here I sit, though, with a favorable ruling from SSDI for a diagnosis of chronic depression (a disease) ? ?  My history of alcoholism and drug addiction had to be marked "in remission."   SSDI no longer considers alcoholics.  A lot of them wind up on the streets or dead from their disease.  If everyone who is almost dead from alcoholism could stop drinking and live, wouldn't they?  

I'm thankful he made it through another Thanksgiving  (sober). I'm thankful I have been fortunate enough to have control over my disease (if "control" is what it can be called.)  

I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving.

[cuteus]

well, from one of the mentioned sites:
"Because someone has a genetic tendency to develop a disease, it does not guarantee they will have the disease, only that they are at higher risk for doing so than the average person."

I wonder how many alcoholics don't show a genetic disposition? Like with every condition and illness, not everyone will fit the criteria.

Another article poses:
"In fact, nine out of ten people who drink do not become alcoholics. Researchers posit many explanations for why some people seem prone to alcoholism, while others are able to drink responsibly—or even to habitually abuse alcohol—without becoming dependent on it. Yet, despite decades of research, the exact mechanisms behind alcoholism remain poorly understood. Most scientists agree that alcoholism has at least some genetic basis, but they are also quick to warn that biology only explains part of the problem. Psychologists point out that while alcoholism does tend to run in families, this may be because children learn harmful drinking behaviors from their parents. Other researchers point to cultural influences, arguing that people from certain religious, ethnic, or socioeconomic backgrounds are more prone to alcoholism than others."
Since alcohol abuse is significant in hispanic cultures like Puerto Ricans (who buy cases of rum to celebrate a baby baptism) am I to believe that this ethnic group carries the gene as a whole?

is it?
http://soc.enotes.com/alcohol-abuse-article/38637

from:
http://www.baldwinresearch.com/alcoholism.cfm

"In a recent Gallup poll, 90 percent of people surveyed believe that alcoholism is a disease. Most argue that because the American Medical Association (AMA) has proclaimed alcoholism a disease, the idea is without reproach. But, the fact is that the AMA made this determination in the absence of empirical evidence. "

from those in the field of providing treatment:
http://www.alcoholism2.com/alcoholism-not-disease.htm

wikepedia entered the discussion field
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease_Theory_of_Alcoholism

but no matter which you choose to believe the
American Medical Association declared alcoholism as a TREATABLE illness in 1956.

I would tend to believe those who are in the field of treating the condition, not theorizing it.

[northstar]

I think everything is really all about the MONEY thing.
Hmomsexuals used to be classified as "sick" but when nobody could cure them,...and as time marched on and it beccame almost fashionable to test these new areas of sexuality, it was called "inborn".
Look at the insurance companies, do you really think they care if you get a head injury when riding a bike? NO. but we have helmet laws now, b/c insurance companies save money.
Diseases receive grants, and a variety of funding and research time. Bad habits dont.
Being over weight is now "not your fault"
Drinking is a "disease"
Wife beaters are caught in a "cycle"
Pedaphiles are incurable, curable, need to be incarcerated for life, on drug therapy for life, castrated,.........it goes on an on. Prosecutor has their expert, defense has their expert. They both fight opposing views. Whose right? Who cares!!!!!!!

Live your life the best you can, and if you dont like the way someone is living theirs,.....tough nuts!!!!!!

Nobody talks junk to you just because your arrogant and just so full of yourself. They pretty much just let you rant and rave and think your right, while they secretly think "what an a$$"
GET A LIFE

[northstar]

pride always comes before the fall.

the fact that you spend so much time on a website debating people that you are positive are not your equals is very telling of who you are.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[Myown]

said Diseases receive grants, and a variety of funding and research time. Bad habits dont.
----------------------------------------------------------------
How true!! If your running for office,,,you have my vote!!

I think if outsiders ever came in and read these posts, the stigma of who gets hepc would be broken. There are alot of smart people in here,different views, but no dummies.

[moveabove]

Wow ! If it strikes a cord, then attack.

[desrt]

So if alcoholic/addictive behaviour is a 'genetic predisposition', or even a combo nature/nurture deal, would you accept an insurance company's decision that you're an 'unacceptable risk'?