Gall bladder removal, opinions?

Hey guys, Over a year ago I ended up in the EM with what we figure was a severe gall b. attack. It is how found out about the hepc. I thought I had an ulcer because of stomach distress for a couple of years prior to this attack. Standard practice , my DR. said was to remove the gb. Well, me and my gall bladder go back a long way, we're pretty close and I just wasn't ready to give up any body parts as of yet! Over the past year I have had minor problems with it, occaisional mild pain, "awareness", minor night attacks, stuff like that. My Dr. still thinks I should have it removed fearing infection. Anybody have any experience along these lines? Any thoughts? Sonagram shows stones. If I do it will get my bx at the same time.

[orleans]

thanks

[pigeonca]

Get it out.  My friend Lisa chose to wait.  While on vacation in Las Vegas, she had an attack, went to the ER and needed emergency surgery - not a nice vacation.

My sister-in-law had her GB out a month ago.  It was nothing.  They went in laparoscopically, little holes, no incision.  She was up and about the next day, back to work 3 days after that.  It always becomes more serious when you put it off.

[copyman]

my ultrasound also showed gallstones but i have never had any real pain from it. my hepatologist said many of his patients have gallstones and he says dont bother with them unless they give you alot of pain. i also have read that many HCV infected have gallstones. i was going to have it removed when i first found out but after some research i changed my mind. seems there are many people that wish they never had it taken out! they say that they are worse off after removed with diarrhea, etc. stuff like as soon as they eat they have to run to the bathroom and some still have the pain.

[desrt]

orleans:
Get it removed.

mremeet:
Much of what you say is true, but...
1) It's easier to refrain from eating a whole pizza than you might think.
2) Factor in that it's safer to have surgery done when you're younger rather than later in life.
3) The fact that we no longer have to gorge and starve like our primitive ancestors really does make it a vestigial organ.

[mremeet]

I was diagnosed with gallstones several years ago after experiencing "liver pain", especially at night after eating a greasy meal and laying down. I was advised at the time to have my gallbladder removed, as it was the only way to permanently and quickly do away with the problem. But like copyman said, I didn't consider the gallbladder to be such a superfluous or vestigial organ. It has a clear and definitive function in your digestive tract, and I don't agree with many doctor's stance on it that it should be taken out at a drop of a hat.

Bile is a greenish yellow substance that is produced by the liver. The gallbladder is a bile reservoir, which is used "on demand" to pump bile into your duodenum in order to digest incoming fats. Normally what happens is that after you consume a meal high in fats, the gallbladder will contract and quickly discharge an amount of bile that is required to process or "saponify" the amount of fat you've consumed (interestingly, saponification is the same chemical process used to make soap, btw). If you've eaten a whole pizza, the gallbladder will provide a large amount of bile to handle that sudden and large onset of fat. If you've only eaten a hershey's kiss, then it will only secrete a relatively small amount of bile, again as required for proper digestion.

The problem that can occur with people who've had their gallbladders removed, is that the bile "reservoir" capacity it provides is eliminated. What this then means, is that if you suddenly eat a large meal high in fats (like the pizza situation described above), the bile now only is coming from your liver alone. Although the liver still produces bile, just as it did when you still had your gallbladder, it merely "secretes" bile at a reltively slow rate and cannot supply large amounts of bile on demand like the gallbladder can. Because this is true, some people can experience problems with indigestion which can include diarreah (diarrhea), hiccups, burping, nausea and perhaps other problems like GERD etc.

There were two people in their early forties that sat close to me in our office space and they both had their gallbladders out around the same time. This may sound a little strange, but you get used to how certain people behave and the sounds they give off when they sit close to you in an office environment over a prolonged period time. But after these two people got their gallbladders removed, suddenly I clearly noticed that right after lunch they would both hiccup and burp excessively, whereas before neither one did anything like that. I never asked them if they had increased diarreah (diarrhea) or nausea or intolerance to high fat meals, but I suspect as much. Although now several years after that event, they both seem pretty well adjusted.

In the final analysis I decided to keep my gallbladder (and not take my surgery happy doctor's advice). As it turned out, the "liver pain" went away, and stayed away years later now. It also provided an incentive for me to eat a healthier lower fat diet, although I've not been sticking to that lately that's for sure (I'm in treatment now and have to eat "whatever" to keep weight on). Still, no pain at all in several years now, and the gallbladder appears to be working fine. So far I'm glad I kept my gallbladder, I think it serves an important purpose.

However, if you have a serious problem going on with your gallbladder, especially like an infection, then yes it should go. But from my experience a temporary bout of mild pain does not necessarily mean it has to come out, just yet anyway. And it is also true that there has been a link established between gallstones and HCV (and is almost certainly why I developed them at a young age).

Lastly there are these "gallbladder flushes" available (just look online) that mostly comprise of fasting for a day along with alternating courses of large amounts of pure olive oil and lemon juice. This apparently causes the gallbladder (and even the liver it is claimed) to safely discharge stones, and a great number of them in some cases. I've often wondered if this is legit because it's a bit on the hippy-homeopathic side, but I always though it might be interesting to try. Google it and you'll see what I mean. And if you do try it, please report back with your results, that'd be really interesting to hear about.

Hope this helps some, best of luck.

[hippygem]

I had exactly the same thing happen to me, I was feeling nauseaus, in pain for a couple of weeks, in and out the hospital, endoscopies (2 which didnt pick anything up), then an ultrasound found the gallstones.  I had to have my gall bladder taken out, it was highly infected and because my ALTs were high, they checked my blood and found I was hepc positive.
There are so many of us heppers that have had gall bladder problems.

There is something that can be taken to help you pass the gallstones, maybe someone on here will have heard of it, something like Olive Oil taken over a couple of days with something else, not sure what that is.  Might be something you may want to look into first.

[desrt]

The problem with trying to flush your own gallstones is the danger of getting them stuck in your common bile duct. This can result in severe pain, pancreatitis, and, I imagine possible death.

[chcnme]

Hi orleans. I would not even think about putting it off (and here's why:)  You can do OK without a GB; with a diseased one, you might not do OK at all.  I have had two friends who waited until they were in bad shape from GB disease (one had Hep C; the other didn't).   Both of them died. The friend I grew up with, in his late 40's, was constantly complaining of his belly hurting, he was throwing up green bile, the docs had already told him several years earlier that he needed to have his GB out, he wouldn't go, he hated doctors, hated the hospital, etc.  One day he was in severe pain (gut pain) had high fever, he was hospitalized and taken to surgery.  He developed septicemia due to peritonitis from GB disease.  He never made it out of the hospital. He was healthy otherwise - as a horse.

The other person I knew was a gal I met on a Hep C forum a few years ago. She had not followed through with a recommended GB removal.  She finally scheduled to have it removed, though, because her pain and vomiting was getting worse, and because she wanted to get everything taken care of before she started Hep C treatment.  We were all rooting for her (she was scared of the surgery). Hers was not an emergency surgery, but - apparently she developed overwhelming infection post op (I'm assuming from peritonitis, although I don't really know.)  I just know her family got in touch with someone on the forum and said she was very sick after the surgery and not expected to make it.  Her obit was then posted in a few weeks.  It was very sad.

I'm not giving you those two examples to just scare the pure H out of you - but... the point is - well - the point is don't wait!  If a doc has told you it needs to come out to reduce your risk of infection, don't wait.  Do it.

Best of luck.

[copyman]

i have done the gall bladder flush with the olive oil, epsom salt and grapefruit juice and it worked for me. i did it 2 times with many stones in the tolit the next morning. i have never had much pain like i have read about so i still have mine. i did the flush after the ultrasound for hep showed them. if you can keep it, try and keep it. if you are not getting alot of pain try and eat a low fat diet and their is a good chance you will feel better. good luck.

[mremeet]

dsrtquote: "1) It's easier to refrain from eating a whole pizza than you might think."

LOL, agreed ;-) I only used the rather extreme example of eating a "whole pizza" to help make and clarify a point. I also used it as an example because once in a while I WILL eat a whole 12" (or even 16", very rarely!) pizza all by myself in one sitting, and enjoy doing so (and I'm not fat btw). There are also other large meals fairly heavy in oils/fats I'll eat in one sitting as well, especially after a prolonged period exercise or manual labor. And speaking for myself, I have no desire in refraining from satiating a deep appetite when I have a justification for one. It's one of the great pleasures of life!

"2) Factor in that it's safer to have surgery done when you're younger rather than later in life."

That's true. But gallbladder surgery today is one of the most common and safest surgical procedures possible. People well into their 60's (and older) commonly have gallbladder surgery without undue problems. It's not considered a high or even moderate risk surgical procedure, especially laparoscopically (which is specifically intended to minimize surgical trauma, risk and recovery time).

"3) The fact that we no longer have to gorge and starve like our primitive ancestors really does make it a vestigial organ."

While I agree we can clearly survive without our gallbladder, I definitely don't consider it vestigial. It serves a clear and compelling function, and it is a fully developed organ that provides a distinct, clear and beneficial function. It also aids in digestion, and hence absorbed nutrition (possibly including the absorption of certain fat soluble vitamins and nutrients). Even though we as humans (generally) do not have to starve and gorge as we frequently had to in primordial times when food was scarce and had to be taken full advantage of when and where it was encountered. It's a gross exaggeration to imply it takes an extreme primordial setting of "starving" followed by "gorging" to make use of a gallbladder. All it takes is several hours of fasting accompanied with a fairly vigorous activity schedule, which in most provokes a hearty appetite, which in turn results in the consumption of a large meal (often containing a significant amount of fat). The reason I know this is true, is because I've personally experienced it countless times throughout my life, and I know the vast majority of other ordinary people experience the same thing quite frequently as well.

I also know that the current trend in dietary thinking is to "graze" by eating numerous smaller meals (low in fat) throughout the day. And if one were to do this, it would help alleviate the need for a gallbladder. But it's one thing to subscribe to this relatively new "grazing" dietary trend (which probably will be usurped in the future with another dietary trend); it's another to actually be able to consistently implement and practice this trend every day, throughout the day, for the rest of your life. I don't know about you, but I can't always "graze", I just can't. Don't get me wrong, I believe grazing is a good idea, as is a low fat diet. But unfortunately due to how my life is lived, it just ain't gonna happen (consistently, anyway). I think most ordinary people (especially Americans) are like me in this regard. There's the "ideal", and then there's what you're actually going to do in the long run. Always avoiding a big appetite, always avoiding high fat meals and grazing like a cow throughout the day for the rest of my life is not something I can realistically achieve. In fact, I don't even want to achieve it. Like I said before, satisfying a big appetite is one of life's great pleasures and I have no desire to forego it. (and again, I'm NOT fat! ;-)

Lastly, I agree about the possible hazards of flushing your own gallbladder. At least in theory. But I've read about this flushing technique using olive oil, epsom salts and citrus juice off and on for the last several years, and it sounds (and looks) pretty compelling. They even specifically address the possibility of cystic duct blockage and methods of shrinking and softening the stones for several months prior to actually flushing. Not that I'm advocating it, like I said before I've never tried it, and it sounds a little hippy homeopathic for my tastes (and even potentially risky)...but it is interesting, I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand just because of a lack of familiarity with it.

[NYgirl]

Hippy - how long have you been posting in here now?

[painterlady13]

You don't say whether you are on TX yet But with no BX yet I am assuming you are not.
This time last year I was in the same boat you were, going to the gastro to find out why I was throwing up, overheating and generally sick to my stomach for no reason.  It was my Gall bladder, and they discovered Hep C too.  6 weeks later I had the gall bladder out and my biopsy done at the same time.  Since then I have been able to tolerate foods in general much better.  Also My Hep doc would never have started any treatment with the posibility of needing any surgery.  As it was the day I was to initially start TX they found an ovarian mass that also had to come out before I started and had to postpone tx 2 more mos.  All went well and I am now almost halfway thru a 48 week TX. And slaying this nasty dragon.  Also I have successfully been UND since week 6.  Good Luck.

[mremeet]

That's really interesting to know you successfully used the flush regimen. I was amazed at the pictures they have on some of the gallbladder flush websites - pictures of what apparently can come out of your gallbladder and even liver. Large stones, medium stones, hundreds or even *thousands* of little stones can be flushed over time??? When I read that and saw the pics, I just had a really hard time accepting it as being completely true. If it is all true, why the hell don't we at least hear about this as an option for gallbladder removal (in milder cases that warrant it as an option and as a periodic preventative measure) from the med community?

So you didn't experience any undue pain or have any real problems when you did your flush? Did you know how big your stone(s) were in size? I might try it, although I'm still a little worried about a possible blockage. I know one of my stones was measured at 1.5cm in diameter nearly ten years ago. That's pretty big, and it may be even bigger now. I guess I better have it checked again for size before I try a flush. If it's too big, I might not risk it.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with it, very interesting.

[Cela]

Hi, I also have gallbladder problems.  I have switched oils from vegetable oils to cooking with coconut oil for everything.  It is a much more stable oil when cooking. In that, there are no carbon bonds to break down during the heating process.  My gallbladder pains has much subsided.  It does come back when I eat junk or fast food.  Coconut oil has been a gallbladder saver for me.  I have also lost some weight without really trying.   I was having severe gallbladder pain for about a week, burning pain under my right rib.  I did castor oil packs to the area for three days, and the pain was better each day.  Then I switched to coconut oil.  it is a common oil to cook with where I live in Asia.  I do not want to have my gallbladder taken out.  I also noticed that my ALT went from 42 to 21 within the six weeks I have switched oils.

[hippygem]

Ive been posting in here for a year now.
Hope things are well with you, you were my first contact person on this forum, a nice welcome you gave me, thanks.

Linda

[copyman]

hi, i also had one large stone measuring 2.0x2.1x2.2 cm and multiple smaller ones. of course only the small ones will come out, the large ones cannot make it out the neck of the GB. some say that those internet pics of all those green & brown stones on are from the coagulation of the oil & citrus juice and it really dont work. i gave it a try and felt better but who knows maybe it is just a hoax. i know one thing for sure, surgens are real quick to want to take out the GB. a quick 5+ large in their pockets. #1 operation in the usa.

[mremeet]

Yeah I saw where some people were saying the "stones" weren't really stones at all, but just a reacted byproduct of the olive oil, epsom salts, bile and citrus juice (maybe little soap balls created in your gut??). But then if they were not gallstones, I'd expect them to be relatively soft and not hard. Were the stones you recovered hard and did they appear to be real gallstones? Hopefully that's not too personal ofa question, if it is obviously no need to answer. Also, I've heard that even pretty large stones can be passed, as it's claimed the epsom salts dilate the various biliary ducts. Here's one pic of a lady that claims she's passed all sorts of stones (looks like she passed a gravel pit to me!)

http://www.curezone.com/image_gallery/cleanse_flush/rusfox/002/default.asp?i=2&n=14

[copyman]

LOL, gravel pit that is funny. some of the "stones" i passed were questionable but i feel some were real. like i said i do know that i felt better plus with the fasting and epsom salt flushing you out i lost 5 lbs, temporary of course :-)

[w.s.]

YES- I'M NEW AT HEP C WORLD AND TWO GALLSTONES WERE SHOWN IN MY UTRASOUND DURING  MY LIVER BIOP-I AM ABOUT TO TRY THE FLUSH- I AM PRESANTLY  DOING A NON-DAIRY DIET AND DRINKING TWOO GLASSES OF ORGANIC APPLE JUICE WILL TRY NEXT FRIDAY- I,LL LET YOU KNOW RESULTS- I HAVE NO PAIN BUT I AM TOLD YHAT ANY ONE WITH A LIVER PROBLEM-LIKE ALL OF US  COULD HAVE - THE STONES CAN BE STRESSFUL ON YOUR LIVER-WALTER- I CAN GIVE YOU THE RECIEPT MY DOCTOR GAVE ME IF YOU WOULD LIKE FOR THE FLUSH-W.S.