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HCV and the brain. Interesting article

The link below presents a very interesting and thought provoking article regarding HCV and the brain.  It has possible ramifications on everything from HCV sx, like fatigue and depression (and various psychiatric disorders), to issues like the possibility of persistant infection after SVR.  Note the reference to the 'different' strains of virus found in the blood versus that found in the brain, spinal fluid, and lymphocytes.  

The article raises many questions that should be explored in the near future.  Here is the link:

http://www.hcvets.com/data/hcv_liver/brain_dysfunction.htm

Thoughts and comments welcomed.

DoubleDose
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Avatar universal
Well, maybe this is the last post on this thread...maybe not...anyway...yes nygirl that was the drug she's on...she got herself off the Methadone with that drug and I thank God for that. The Methadone program is another place that I truly hate...they do not test routinely for HCV and go around telling people that if they have it, don't think you can get Social Security because you can't! Yes, that's what they tell those poor people stuck going there every day like slaves...makes me sick...and they are too sick to even question it or get tested or treated or anything...If I hadn't been such a pest, my daughter would probably still be going there every day...

And what cuteus says is true, we all have our own writing 'styles' we just have to get used to each other. I had my share of issues but now I really like the same people I didn't like so much...ahhh the circle of life! I know for a fact that I can be very 'to the point' and snotty...I try very hard to curtail that really bad habit...sometimes it slips out and I really don't mean it...I just come off that way and then it's too late...
Cin
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Avatar universal
well, it does look like we were rebudgeted to 40 comments per thread, so this one is almost to the new limit.
JM, I don't know what the solution is to what you consider MH's problem, I still don't think a moderator is a good idea based on my personal experience with other boards, and like can do man stated "no matter what is said, somebody is going to be offended..."  I would change that to someone MIGHT be offended.
I recall some of what transpired and at least one of those members was trying to make a point in a tactful way, but was interpreted as an attack.  So hard to foresee how something is going to be read. Yes, I did read some very direct insults and some not so direct, and that might have been excesive and uncalled for.  
How do you determine intent and thus classify it as a harrassment, or insult or not? Because the intent might not have come accross, and the recipient can interpret it as an attack, does that make the post harassing? Some comments can be assessed as insulting and others will be assessed different ways by different readers. If someone brought to your attention that you were using the word "advice" or were addressing questions as a medical provider would, maybe even sound like one, would you take that as an attack or as an observation? Maybe in the context of other comments around that were insulting you would see it as the former. It is so hard to find the happy balance, but moderation is not it, in my opinion.

Let's look at some interesting comments recently, post k2 zapping.
some called it a nasty dropping, and somehow it is acceptable.
someone is still using the word newbie, which some vocal person objected to.
sacred cow was used which could offend someone if interpreted and perceived in that manner. was that the intent?
debate is also stifled by the us v them attitude seen even in the newer members at some point.

It is all so relative, and I am just simply pointing out situations that were accepted as ok, even though it could be received differently by different individuals. I know the phrase sacred cow was not an insult, but I could have taken it that way, and would I have been right in contacting a moderator to have it removed? I am not trying to criticize your posts, just offering a view of everyday happenings that are accepted because the intent is perceived as ok.
No one here should take these observations as criticism or attacks, that is not my intent. I am merely trying to point out the complexity of the situation, and moderation will not make everyone happy, either.
My style of writing is curt and to the point, and it can be and has been interpreted as attacks by some. I can't help that, unless I change my personality in its entirety. Not very realistic though. Too old of a dog.
I do hope folks stop feeling attacked each time someone disagrees or offers a counter point each time a certain point is made, because it might not be intended as a constant attack or harrassment of the poster.
Posts this long, always open things up for misinterpretation also.
oh well
take care
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Avatar universal
I had to have my skull opened up due to bood clots in my brain. The neurosurgeon told me I was fortunate that they got me when they did because I had significant clots. So that's my excuse for any of my bad behavior. I do recall saying something about thick skin and that someone should toughen up but I don't think it was you who I was referring to or addressing. I don't ever mind disagreements and, in fact, believe that they are extrememly helpful when the participants try to bolster their positions with facts and theories. But character attacks are foolish, mean and unproductive. I try to remember when I came here knowing next to nothing and what that felt like. Back then there were very few with any real knowledge and the ones who knew shared with the rest of us. Now the members are vastly more knowledgeable and so much better equipped to make decisions than when I first came here. And that speaks volumes about this board specifically and the internet in general. And you have helped so many here Jim that I urge you to just forget about any of that old stuff and keep helping the members get smart. Mike
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yeah,i'm hangin tuff-i have called in some favors,family& friends; my own personal support group,feels much better lately...No need to be the singular man &  the connections feed my sense of strength,hence my powers to fite the virus..I really believe that it's important to feel positive and good about stuff- esp while trx......can't be wasting precious energy on bs distractions,,focus on SVR..hope all goes well for you at doc's tomorrow........i had very much the same issues pre-trx as regards fatigue...its why i visited a doc for v thorough& expensive physical-600$-i was p#ssed at big bill,until it sunk in--Hep-C--yeeow!!!!......2006-the Year too Clear
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Avatar universal
You indeed might have missed most of it as if I remember correctly, your comments were made at the tail end of those particular episodes. .

Again, stretching my memory, I do remember your very thoughtful post about that time defending what some inaccurately characterized as my undue influence on the board in terms of to treat or not to treat. You rightfully pointed out that my thoughts were simply reflecting newer studies/opinions and drugs hopefully on the horizon that have to be factored into any treatment decision.

Glad your fog is starting to lift some. I don't remember the details of your accident but if you had a concussion the sides can linger on for awhile.

Take care.

--Jim

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Avatar universal
I hope it's okay if I answer your post here. You said:
To me - the "mean" behavior you refer to in the past -- is far more insidious and has much more potential harm than the kalio2's of the world. Insults, character assasination and pure bile in the context of heated debate -- as we saw several months ago with a number of long-standing membbers-- and this is what really not only drives people away but equally worse, stiffles legitimate debate by intimiation.
I agree with you if that was the case. Perhaps I was either hospitalized or non compos mentis when the most egregious behavior transpired. I do recall some suggestion that you were anti TX. I really don't recall how that played out. Perhaps people felt threatened by your knowledge but that is no excuse for character assasination. I apologize if I was on the board when attacks were made and I sat by and said nothing. I don't know about DD's theory of brain involvement with hep c but I do know that my brain hasn't been at 100% since my wreck so that is my only excuse. And my brain's getting better and better so I should be a better member in the future. I didn't say anything to Kalio2 either because there seemed no way to reach that person. It was almost sad. But Kalio2 did cast a very dark shadow over the board as I saw it and the shadow permeated questions to which Kalio2 didn't even post. Anyway, I'm sorry for the character assasination and the meanness and happy that things can and will improve. Be well my friend. Mike
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Avatar universal
Don, I hope all goes well with your visit tomorrow.  :) I feel it's important to go in armed and educated...we've got to fight our own battle here.  I don't remember what your actual drop was at 12 weeks, however if you were close, I'd fight to continue tx and extend beyond the 48.  I went from 1.9 to 44,000 and wish I had stood my ground and insisted on going 24 before stopping tx.  Hopeful that the 2nd round with Infergen would do it for me...I'm not so sure now.  Let us know how things go tomorrow  :)
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Avatar universal
Couldn't reply in another thread it was full.
LOL-Some gift, I had to look magnum-opus up. Thought it was something I shoulda learned in history class.
Actually my days are no different than anybody else. Just use my share of the  24hrs in a less focused and more scatttered pattern. It was the Honda that died. Now driving a 99 Ford Taurus wagom. Like my energy levels it's gas tank fluctuates. Fuel light will pop on, I go for gas, right before I get there the needle  will junp back to over a 1/4 tank and so forth. At least the car I can feed energy to. My own tank goes up and down and filling it doesn't help. Noticed today I'm 17lbs below tx start weight despite filling the t ank on a regular basis.
How you feeling lately. Still battlin hard?
Don
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Avatar universal
Methadone is more painifully addictive to come off of then heroin and it takes LONGER.  

The stuff I am on ... they give you a months pill supply and send you home, it's like the working class answer to meth and instead of the clinic EVERY day (I could NEVER EVER do that) it's just a prescription.

Works for me.  I'm not going to have any MORE things going on in this body for quite a while....when you are cutting down it's ok but at the end when you have to quit cold turkey oh no thanks not right now during treatment.  No WAY.

Amazingly doctors think nothing about prescribing all of the Oxy's that you want...and once you are addicted cut you off flat after a while and don't realize great now I need rehab.

What a mistake I made.
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Avatar universal
Cquest-The best thoughts to you and your daughter. The one addiction I missed thankfully. Snorted it once in CA with a few Marines just back from overseas. Hope your daughter fares well. A friend that just trying to come back into recovery has been in methadone programs. Says trying to come off of that can be pretty nasty in itself.
NY- Hang in there lady. One battle at a time.

Be Well,
Don
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Avatar universal
She's on Suboxone.  I am as well.  After breaking my back I had a HUGE pain killer dependency...doctors cringe to give you methadone or suboxone for that so I told him I had a heroin habit.  While it was true I had certainly done my share in the past...he didn't need to know I no longer was.

The suboxone is a great maintenance drug in the fact that it prevents you from getting "high" if you take any morphine based drugs.  While wanting to go off all meds is a great thing - make sure that she is ready.

I do not want to have to go through withdrawl while I am treating so I have to stay on for a while.  It's just not worth it yet.
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Avatar universal
I hope so...I really do...and I am even thinking about going back on tx after reading that brain article...I'm allready messed up so how much worse can it possibly be?
Cin
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Avatar universal
glad you shared the good news w/ us.. i hope that your daughter  continues to improve & that life grows better for you,,and the virus withers,slithers out of your family forever......Best of Luck
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Avatar universal
I dont want to talk to my hubby either!
May your daughter make it this time. It souonds like she is finally ready. Best,best wishes.
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Avatar universal
I know I've gotten older, jeesh I'll be 52 in a couple of weeks but I was talking to my daughter last night and she said she thought I was 'not quite senile, but almost'! How's that for a kick in the teeth?

My daughter also has HCV but says she 'can't deal' with more doctors and tests and prescriptions etc...I'll tell you all what her deal is: She got strung out on dope from some loser boyfriend...that was about 10 years ago...had another boyfriend that also caught HCV maybe from her, maybe they were doing dope again, I don't know...anyway he got so depressed, he was doing more and more drugs...they split up and he moved in with his friend...got trashed one night and was going to go out and his roomate took his keys (this was a few winters ago, not recently) and he got pissed and went out to sit in the truck anyway...this was winter...he froze to death...the family blames my daughter and also the roomate...Sooo, fast forward to the present and she is still on drugs for her past addiction, not Methadone but something else...the GOOD news is the insurance company has been such a-holes about authorizations, she has started to reduce herself from the meds and last night for the first time in years, she said she wanted off permanently! She said she is going to try and get off for good! Do you know how wonderful that is? Just had to tell somebody and my husband is sleeping (plus I'm mad at him lately and don't want to talk to him at all)
Cin
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Avatar universal
Yeah.
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86075 tn?1238115091
Cafe Amsterdam in Fresno?
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Avatar universal
In air fax mebbe?   I tried to count the number of  dashes but gave up. No, never hoid of it.   And that would be Ebay K, sir.  As in Barbie and K-K-K-Ken.    Truth of the matter is you can safely dip your toes in sea water,  unseen by the like of me or other uncouth hill dwellers, because the ridgeline gets in the way.   (Oh lord, please tell me it's not Bolinas.)

Can a person get kicked off for making obscure regional references?



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92903 tn?1309904711
Can probably see your roof line from my front porch in K---------.

Could be (is that the Northbay K-------- or the E Bay K---------), but you'd have to be pretty high up as I'm pretty low - my toes can get wet at high tide, and I ain't kidding.

I'm a fan of Cafe Amsterdam in F------, ever go there? Forsee doesn't seem to believe we have real honest to god hippies there. Foresee, this ain't no movie set, this is the real - unshaved, patoulli oiled, birkenstocked - deal.
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Avatar universal
Oh dear, I'm really sorry to hear this.   Interferon & riba at this point in time have no doubt accelerated the aging process.  What a drag it is getting old and creaky instead of merely old and cranky!   Well, CTON probably has the right idea for us:  at the very least, we need to give ourselves permission to invest in as much deep tissue work and yoga / pilates / Feldenkrais regimens as we can afford.   It takes acute pain to get me motivated sometimes, but motivated I am--going to see a physical therapist/Rolfer on Wednesday to see if I can start turning some of this around with a little heavy assistance.  Have you explored any of those therapies and if so, have they helped at all?  All best to you, guy.
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Avatar universal
I have also been dealing with a variety of neurological problems after tx.  I am 27 months post-tx, SVR, and still have ongoing neck, shoulder, and spinal 'buzzing', tingling, pain, and sometimes numbness.  The neck and shoulder problems sometimes feel like a vibrating, electrical throbbing that can sometimes be painful, sometimes pressure-filled, and sometimes almost numb. I can no longer sleep on my side without severe pain and numbness!  My balance sometimes feels out of whack when I experience these problems.  When I am under stress these days, I feel it throughout my body, almost as a vibrating electrical impulse, deep in the spinal column.  It does not feel good at all!  I saw a top neurologist who said he saw nothing extremely serious going on...and recommended exercise and stress management.  Of course he could not have any idea how this really feels inside...but I guess I felt good just being told I was not a neurological basket case.  Other than the diagnosis and brief advice, I found no answers there. His exam was very superficial to say the least.

I wonder how many other post-tx'ers are going through similar stuff and not realizing where it all comes from.  I just hope it fades eventually.  Sometimes it seems that it comes and goes randomly, and sometimes gets as intense as during tx.  

DoubleDose
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Avatar universal
I really want to apologize for the long delay in responding to all the great hard-warming responses to my "tenderfoot' post.   Thanks so much, you wonderful people.  I tried and tried, but threads kept abruptly closing on me one after the other like doors in a Kafkaesque hallway.  In frustration I even tried opening a new thread at 2 am (up late roasting garlic and kabocha squash, don't ask)--but even that was to no avail.   Devious MH software?

So let's see, where were we?  Ah, neuropathy.

First a quick detour, though.  GOOF, thanks for your reasonable explanation  a couple days back.   Thought that was going on, but  I was worried that _any_ sort of attention was just further fuel for the toxic flames.  Btw,  I'm just beginning to realize that  we be neighbors.  Can probably see your roof line from my front porch in K---------.  

JM JM:  Point well taken.  Couldn't agree more about the need for moderators to save us from our selves.   That last outbreak of idiocy was allowed to go on far too long.

COUG:  Don't worry--your mind will come back.  I swear.  In fact, I'd bet that within 48 hours of quitting the riba, your utility bill will stop looking like it was written in 3rd century Chinese.   I'm terribly sorry you're having the same kind of experience that I did on tx, but hey!  You're in good company.

And now, finally, to the non-stop buzzing, tingling, throbbing joys of post-chemo neuropathy.

HEPGUY:  Thanks for sharing that very encouraging info about your neuropathy eventually resolving after 9 months-post.  

KALIO the !st:   This is definitely interferon-related; no prior experience w/ this problem.   I appreciate your sensible advice, straight outta the school of hard knocks.  You, too, CAPT 82:  you've really been through it.  Great to hear from you, though, and big congrats on the Un-D.   As for your lycanthropy, perhaps you should keep a few Howlin' Wolf tapes in your glove box in case of sudden onset.   (Btw, I'm going to investigate the Lyrcia.)   SNOOK:  Endoscopy?  Whaaa?  Is this punitive or just purely diagnostic?   OMYST, MONTE & FTX23:   This neuro stuff is probably more widespread than we realize....or should I say that you put a human face on the statistics that around 30% of tx'ers are afflicted with neurological problems.   To both of you:  Ow!   The trigeminal nerve clue is really provocative, as I, too, have been suffering fairly constant headache post-tx.  Any connection, I wonder?  And to CUTEUS, CHEV, TALLBONDE, FRIOLE & anyone else I have foolishly forgotten to mention,  peace, love and big thanks to you all.    (Why does this sound like a bad Academy Awards speech?)





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Avatar universal
Chev:  Great to hear from you as well.  I hope everything is still going very nicely for you.  Sounds like most, or all of your prior sx have more or less vanished....and that is fantastic.  Maybe it is a sign of true 'eradication'.  Let's all hope so.  Best to you for 2006!!!!

Jim:  I do hate to be a downer, but I also try to be realistic.  Even though I am pretty optomistic in general regarding life,(or I would never have done tx...twice) I also feel a compelling need to get answers to questions that seem to beg for more information.  The issues of fatigue, brain fog, anxiety, behavioral disturbances, and depression in HCV always seems intriguing because these problems rarely seem to correlate to things like liver stage/damage, or viral load, or length of infection, etc.  Makes you wonder where the 'brain related' problems come from.  Even though it scares the #*@# out of me, I feel the need to understand what is going on regarding this 'potential' brain infection, and the possibility of 'compartmentalized' or 'persistent' infection even after SVR.  If there is something to this issue, then we all need the researchers and pharma firms to find more solutions for us...sooner.  Rather than later.  And I truly hope that the persistent infection theory is totally false!  But at this point, I need proof!  There is too much contrary research coming in every year to ignore the issue.  

Cuteus:  I hope you are doing well also.  Good to see you on the board.  I truly believe that our sharing information, personal experiences, research discussions, observations, etc. with each other will give us more insight into the riddles surrounding HCV than anything else.  Many of us have been frustrated by the narrow, often disbelieving approaches to understanding this virus taken by very highly educated doctors.  Often they do not even give any credibility to specific patient experiences, symptoms, or concerns.  We need more scientists who are willing to dig and explore, to get the real answers.  Not just textbook responses.  Best wishes to you for the new year!

DoubleDose

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Avatar universal
I did read that learning a foreign language later in life improves memory. The intresting thing, it wasn't actually learning the language or the progress, it was simply the attempt. I had some more info, but I forgot. And I'm just to tired to remember.
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