'Healthy Liver 2' - supplements

[miked]

I'm a geno 1a non-responder to PEG+RBV; minimal damage and decided to wait-n-watch for awhile.

Tallblonde (Susan) published data about a multi-vitamin supplement named "Healthy Liver 2". Does anyone have experience with this product?

I looked it up at www.vitacost.com and found the following:

Description
This product contains numerous minerals, vitamins and herbs that have been shown to optimize liver function and promote detoxification during alcohol consumption. Water-soluble vitamins and electrolyte minerals are included to replenish those lost while consuming alcohol. This product is also excellent for those who want to protect their liver from environmental toxins.

Amount Per Serving  % Daily Value  

Vitamin C (as calcium ascorbate)(Ester-C® MV) 500 mg 833%

Vitamin E (as d-alpha tocopherols succinate and mixed tocopherols) 250 IU 833%

Vitamin B1 (thiamine HCl) 500 mg 33,333%

Vitamin B2 (riboflavin) 10 mg 588%

Vitamin B3 (niacinamide) 100 mg 500%

Vitamin B6 (pyridoxine HCl) 50 mg 2,500%

Folic Acid 800 mcg 200%

Vitamin B12 (methylcobalamin) 2 mg (2,000 mcg) 33,332%

Biotin 3 mg (3,000 mcg) 999%

Vitamin B5 (pantothenic acid) 50 mg 500%

Zinc (as L-methionine)(L-OptiZinc®) 15 mg 100%

Selenium (selenomethionine) 400 mcg 572%

Chromium (as chromium polynicotinate)(Chromemate®) 200 mcg 167%

Molybdenum (as amino acid chelate) 150 mcg 200%

CoEnzyme Q10 30 mg *

Alpha Lipoic Acid 600 mg *

Milk Thistle Extract (standardized to 80% silymarin)(

[miked]

By the way...I'm doing great after 4 months off of tx.  My weight is back to normal and getting back into running shape.  I feel good, just wish this monkey was off my back.

Mike

[cuteus]

I read some literature about niacin not being a good thing to take with hep c, not sure how it affects it, though.

[new-sojourn]

There's nothing wrong w/that.  B/is it worth it?  I take all those things b/in different forms. The joint juice, protein powder and costco vitamin pack all supply those and more.  I also like Cel. Seasoning's Morning De-Tox tea.  I drink it every morning.

I don't like to take someone else's formula b/c I like to increase and decrease different things @ different times.  You know, ease off milk thistle-1200mgs-some wks-change up sam-e, if very active, more joint juice.  Vit-min fast on 1 day a wk.

Also, I like to get many of the herbs and minerals in teas if possible.  As close to natural as possible.

I'm trying to grow a new liver personally.  And the more organic veggatarian I get the better I feel.

[Tallblonde]

Your list of ingredients missed these three:

Milk Thistle Extract   900 mg  
N-Acetyl Cysteine 300 mg
Phosphatidylcholine 400 mg

The advertising blurb about alcohol consumption kind of bothers me.  All I know is that I like this formula because it contains all of the major supplements that are specifically recommended for folks with Hep C (Milk Thistle, Alpha Lipoic Acid, Selenium, N-Acetyl Cysteine, etc.)  It would be very expensive to buy all of these things separately and would take up way too much space in my medicine cabinet.  

During the time that my viral load dropped 94% (within six months of my diagnosis), this was the only supplement I was taking.  I'm now taking a few other things and it's droped even further.

Susan

[Honey15637]

Miked,,Glad to see you are doing so much better. I don't have much to offer as supplements but am learning myself as I would like to continue for my liver to get better!

New,,,,Do you get biopsy's now that you are free and clear?  Seems like I read somewhere,,,maybe 3 to 4 years.  I just wondered if all this that you apply to your health has made your liver go back in stages?

[jmjm530]

I know you're not making a claim -- just giving anecdotal info -- but there are no studies that I know of showing any relationship between viral load and the types of herbs/supplements mentioned.

Viral load can fluctuate wildly, for reasons not yet understood, but these fluctuations do not necessarily correlate with liver health/damage.

In my case, my pre-treatment viral load has fluctuated between 34,000,000 and 189,000 with no correlation to any supplements I was taking.

That said, some herbs/supplements may have a positive effect on liver enzymes as opposed to viral load. Again, the clinical benefit of this has not been demonstrated. The flip side is that some may also have a negative effect on liver enzymes. I took a pre-treatment herbal formula that skyrocked my liver enzymes and delayed treatment for over a year.

I'll also note that at other times pre-treatment I was able to get my enzymes down to normal anytime I went back to a Pritikin diet which basically is a regimen where less than ten per cent of your total calories comes from fat. Again, not sure if that helped me or not, but the diet did effect my enzymes.

[Tallblonde]

I appreciate you acknowledging that I wasn't making any claims, because I wasn't.  I was simply stating a fact.  I have no idea whether or not there's any correlation between the supplements I'm taking and my dramatic, sustained drop in viral load and liver enzymes.  But I sure as heck ain't gonna stop taking them.

Susan

[Tallblonde]

By the way, why on Earth did you have to delay treatment for a year because of a spike in liver enzymes?  Sounds to me like a good reason to accelerate treatment, not delay it.

Susan

[jmjm530]

Prior to the herbal treatment my liver enzumes were less than 50 per cent elevated compared to normal. Within a couple weeks my ALT was 649 and my AST 592. In addition I was experiencing extreme fatigue.

My doc, an experienced heptologist, likened such a sudden and dramatic rise to an acute infection and we both decided to wait until things calmed down. It took about nine months for the enzymes to return to near normal.

In all fairness I should also add that I took the Hep B vaccine around the same time as the herbal supplements. Personally, I believe it may have been the hep b vaccine although my doc said probably not, but we will never know. Perhaps a combination of the two. This is not an exact science.

As far as your nutritional regimen is concerned, if it works for you, great. But now you know why I'm scared sh*t to take any more herbs. LOL.

[jmjm530]

and I should also add I'm scared sh*t to take the hep b vaccine again. My doc agrees with me on both counts. LOL.

[cuteus]

the articles at this site offer food for thought
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/quacksell.html

the best way to judge if something will work for the majority, with the same outcome, is a scientific study. If I take a certain supplement and a symptom dissappears, I am going to credit the supplement, if something bad happens, it will get the blame. Am I right? no one knows. It might have happened anyway, regardless.  With hep c, you will need to get frequent PCRs prior to the supplement to average the vl, & enzymes levels fluctuations,  and do the same after introducing the supplement. A significant variation from the pre supplement #s will give way to further studying.
I would like to see a study like that going on to settle the issue somewhat. On the other hand, it does not matter what the VL is as far as ongoing damage to the liver, according to the available literature, so I guess those would be useless numbers to document.
Whatever makes folks feel better without bodily harm and  if they have the money, let them spend it, as long as they know its limitations.

[Tallblonde]

You write:  "I would like to see a study like that going on to settle the issue somewhat."

I'm a huge fan of studies; I rely on them to guide me in decision-making about supplements, herbs, vitamins and pharmaceuticals.  But as far as "settling the issue" goes, it's pretty much settled in my mind that my approach is worthwhile, safe and effective for ME.  After all, that's all that really matters. And, luckily, I can afford it, so what the hell?  Even if it's all just one great big placebo effect, who cares?  All I know is that every number that's worth measuring (regardless of how much you might want to dismiss their significance) has improved dramatically since I started my alternative regimen.

Please remember the words of that wise sage Califia "...and or both..."

Susan

[Honey15637]

Susan,,,What will you do if Cecil says to treat...

[Tallblonde]

That's easy.  I'll simply tell him I'll treat when there's something better than the current drugs, or if I reach stage 2 before they come out.

I'm not going to Dr. Cecil to seek his opinion on whether or not I should treat.  My mind is firmly made up on that score and even he won't persuade me to treat a moment before the above criteria is met.  I'm just trying to get myself established with a competent doctor so I'll be all set when I am finally ready to treat.

Susan

[cougareyes]

I'm 1a, 1.06mil vl, grade 3, stage 3, with fatty liver; I posted a few weeks ago in a dilemma to treat or not and you responded to me with a very caring and knowledgable response. You did recommend me to treat and I am starting next week. But in your situation if my liver was not even at stage 2 there would be no way I would go through the current treatment; I would do what you are doing. I believe it's too late for me to take a more holistic approach and my only choice now is to treat. Take care of yourself.

[Tallblonde]

Some posters, like Califia, are very knowledgable about blending conventional and alternative treatments -- so it may not be too late for you to pursue a similar course.

There's a quiet miniority here who will occassionally validate my decision to postpone treatment. Unfortunately, there are a few others (especially the one I call "PA") who view my position as  cowardly.  They wear their suffering as badges of honor and see non-treaters as dishonorable in some sense. None of this really gets to me, of course, because I know what's best for me and my life.

Still, it's nice to hear from folks like you who appreciate the saneness and sensiblity of my strategic approach. I do have a plan and I think it's perfect for my circumstances.

Good luck to you Cougareyes. I'll say a prayer for you tonight that God will help you  sail smoothly through treatment and straight on toward that coveted SVR.

Take care,
Susan

[Califia]

Well, this wise old sage tends to remain wisely silent during these debates (except to suggest a both/and approach, rather than an either/or) because the longer I'm on treatment the less I truly seem to know.   Perhaps that's a real sign of progress, and then again I might have shed a few mental screws along the way.  Interferon is the perfect tool for prying loose old preconceptions, that's for sure.  Stay on hep boards long enough and everything becomes less solid.  After hearing story after story the disease course seems so utterly random and arbitrary.  Serious alcoholics with little or no fibrosis after thirty years of sauteeing their chronic hepatitis with Wild Turkey--how can this be?  Or the symptom-free triathalon types who suddenly discover they have cirrhosis after decades of vegan diets and clean living--how do we account for them?  And how much of our response to treatment is actually under our control?  I am beginning to dimly understand that genetics play a very large role in who clears and who doesn't.   Medical science has discovered that sex, race, and ethnicity are extremely important factors in disease progression and treatment response, but it cannot yet fully explain why that might be the case.

But of course you already know all of this.   As for me, floating downstream in the dream state that is interferon treatment, it's _all_ beginning to look like magical thinking.   But in dreams nothing has to make sense.  You just have to wake up before the tiger eats you.   (That's okay, I don't know what that means, either.)

[Tallblonde]

"Wake up before the tiger eats you..."  Ah...that's a good one.  I have also scratched my head at the randomness of this disease and   I never take the mildness of my condition for granted.  That's why vigilent monitering is so important for anyone postponing treatment.

You're almost at the finish line of your extended treatment, but I'm sure these last few weeks are moving in slow motion from your perspective.  Hang in there, Califia.  It'll alll be over soon.  

Susan

[scruffy]

How much longer do you have to treat Califia? My memory is poor at best. frank

[cuteus]

HCV=confusing at best.  My theory is the xx chromosome or just the x, and since we girls have it doubled, we get a better shot at svr, regardless of diet.  hey! is as good as many.

I don't quite like to call all the holistic disciplines quackery like this site does, I don't htink they all are, but the principles of influence and the power of suggestion seem to be the main focus.  This MD http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/altmuddled.html- is willing to concede validity to the alternative approach as a therapy when the criteria he follows is met. He also believes that testimonials who lead to  research and subsequent validation are valuable.  But the basing on testimonials alone with no other corroboration is what he seems to refute.
I guess I would tend to agree with him, until I try something that works MIRACLES on me and then I will dismiss his words very quick. Human nature.
stay awake for the tiger...

[Califia]

It's amazing how we can adjust to anything.  I think of survivors of wars and gulags and other horrors and know this is lightweight by comparison.   If anything, I am incredibly blessed.   Last week I spent a day telling myself that I couldn't (or shouldn't) take it anymore, but that moment passed as it always does.   Truly I feel grateful and optimistic about outcome, if also a little achey (achy) and queasy.  But as the French say with that little shrug and half smile, c'est normal.  Did shot #54 last night--whohoooo!--so that means a full 38 weeks without this nasty virus.   There are enough meds in my refrigerator to see me through 60 weeks of treatment,  so another  6 weeks and I'm done.

Just got official word that yes, the constant tingling and burning in my feet and legs is neuropathy,  so it looks like I'll be resuming my supplement regime.  (I stopped everything a while back to see how I'd do, but mainly because I got tired of swallowing pills.)   But Susan's report about ALA and acetyl-L-Carnitine is very encouraging, so I'm not going to worry  about it at least until tx is over.  Thank you, TB!   Great teamwork as always.

[Tallblonde]

Don't forget the Evening Primrose Oil (3 grams/divided doses), in addition to the other two supplements.  I'll be eager to hear if you get similiar results.  I'm thrilled to be 98% free of the numbness/tingling.  It still happens, mildly, once in a blue moon -- but nothing like it was before I began taking this regimen.

Good luck!
Susan

[scruffy]

6 weeks and all dues paid in full. Time to dance very very soon. frank

[Califia]

Our messages crossed, natch.   You know, I don't disagree with you at all, and if anything--after seeing how much gullibility and just plain stupidity there is out there, without which the CarmenB's of the world wouldn't have a market--scientific method, limited as it might be, is beginning to look better and better.   A month ago my S.O.'s sister sent me some advertising for a two-herb formula that costs a million bucks and is GUARANTEED to cure my hep without toxic side effects, and I nearly hit the roof.   Last time she'll do that, I'm sure!   Poor thing couldn't figure out why I was so P.O'd.    Oh, while I have your ear--Silvermoon's phone has been disconnected and this can't be good.   She was hospitalized a few weeks back with a blood clot in her leg and severe asthma and was still on treatment.   Very worrisome....

[cuteus]

Thanks for that update! I have been worrying about her of late, darn! it does not sound good. I can't believe all the obstacles she has had to jump in her journey to kill hcv off.  Did you try her email? Please email me if you find her.

[Califia]

Susan, thanks for the advice.  Used  to grow it but have actually never used it medicinally.

Frank, your time is coming soon.   Dust off those dancin' shoes.

[snook_man]

Aggghhhh, I remember when I first started tx and it seemed you where so far ahead of me. Week 54? Only a few more weeks. That dragon is dead, been dead for awhile!! Your just dragging him around now to make a statement!!
I'm on week 36, and tx has definately become a roller coaster ride. I made it sooo far with no sx's, now I get a new one with every shot. Hmm, rash, anxiety, hair loss, what next? Ohh, wife loves the new slim and trim me though, just tired of the HCV talk. We're ALL getting ready to put this behind us.
I know that you won your battle, cause you have fought the fight!! Broken arms and all!! LOL!

[snook_man]

((((((CHEV)))))))
Always put a smile on for you!! I'm doing okay, I guess. Still working and gaining some weight back too.
For the rash, it seems it was a allergic reaction either to sunscreen, or new Tide detergent. We rewashed all the clothes, sheets, etc. I took Benadryl for a few days, and maxed out on vitamin C. Remember, vitamin C is a natural anti-inflamatory.
And stayed home friday through sunday without a shirt on, ocassionally soaking in oat bath. Rash seems to be gone. Well you can still see where it was, but no redness and itch.
THANK GAWD!!!!!!
I dragging that dragon around now, like BAM BAM from the flintstones!! Bam, Bam!!!!

[Califia]

Yo, Snook, glad to hear you're still hanging in there and giving Mr. Depp a little competition in the fashionably wasted department.  Bam! Bam! Bam!  Wow, it even felt good to type that.   The Flintstone school of therapy, eh?  It's true that draggin' a dead dragon around by the tail can get pretty tiring but I definitely like the leopard spot pelt that comes with the job.  You think it'd go over on South Beach?   (Oh, sorry, maybe I shouldn't have mentioned those spots.  Quite insensitive of me.)  The thing about enduring side effects is that it makes the victory even sweeter when it's finally ours.   We're just earning your swaggering rights the old fashioned way -- with hard work.    Hope you get a little breather between rounds, though.   Only three more months to go...

[snook_man]

What? You dare say the south beach word? That place is just a distant memory to me..LOL
Sun, water, outdoors? Seems like I'm a recluss these days, hiding in the shadows. The heat and humidity here in Miami, is just ridiculous. Like the wicked witch, "I'm melting"!!!!

We're close girl, save my spot on the bus!!

[sunspot]

Snook_Man
Go hang out at Coconut Grove. More shade trees there.

Dana: Old Hialeah Boy, now in Alabama

[scruffy]

I can see you're a thoughtful guy. Good luck with that on tx!smile

Just maintain my friend and that will be enough. frank

[BIOPHIL]

Hmmm a sense of humor and a sense of of literature. Is this the Support part of this web site? Today I woke tired and my mind foggy, with flulike symtoms. my arms feel tired, I Feel my liver to be tender, and I dream about a beach with waves and sun all around me instead of brain fog. I had felt much better lately unfortunately my lab resuls sent me into a tail spin.
I loked the poetic words Califia wrote, what do I believe in is all going to be fluid and changing including my life? my kids are little. I cant afford to have my being/ not being something that changes. I have allways believed in my will power, i wonder If i really have a tool here vis s vis hep C, or just a self misleading mechanism. This confusion seems to me to be what the Mental Fog does to you when it comes.

[Tony-z]

<font size="4" color="#3399cc">I guess I am the last of the Bottom Feeders, I will not go peacefully as I am a warrior for the Lord My GOD...


                      TonyZ</font>

[cuteus]

LOL
fRANK AND I ARE TWO THREADS ABOVE!
I AM STILL GULPING FOR AIR!

[scruffy]

Tony-so dramatic.(and colorful!) We still feed. frank