Hep C caused by military air-injected immunizations

I want to know if anyone knows of persons that may have had air-injected immunizations while i the military (vietnam era)? They line up one by one and get hit with the same air-injected gun, everyone had blood running down their arm. I firmly believe that's where I first came in contact with the virus but it could be a number of other things too.

[tashka]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

My husband is one of the people you are talking about. But he is not Vietnam vet. He was infected in 1983, on the first day of NAVY basic training. Everything just like you describe: bunch of people immunized with the same air jet device, blood going down their arms... He never used drugs, never had transfusions, tattoos, or even major surgeries. So after wondering for a long time where he could have been infected, he finally remembered that fateful day. Before he retired from the military, they offered him hepatitis C test, but he declined, because he considered himself low risk. I am almost glad that he didn't take it, because our life was much nicer when we didn't know about this disease. He got diagnosed 5 years ago by the blood test administered by the life insurance company.

[banarep]

I did.  Vets make up a very big % of Hep C patients.  And most of us are from the Vietnam Era.  

[Mr Liver]

Millions of schoolkids, my self included received several injections by air guns. The only way for blood to be running down someone's arm from an air injector is if they flinched and pulled away at the time of injection. I find it rather curious that so many servicemen flinched while millions of school girls didn't.
ML

[tashka]

That doesn't surprise me at all. Men are very sensitive to pain. And most of them hate needles/sticking devices of any kind.

Vernon told me that a lot of people flinched that day. There was a lot of blood.

I also read that even if the person doesn't flinch at all, small amount of blood still gets into device and can infect the next person in line. No matter the device, it is just wrong to use one device for a bunch of people. But nobody thought about it back then.

I am originally from Russia, and in late 80s we still had reusable needles, syringes, even IV systems. How can you sterilize the needle? It is impossible. Looking back at all this just horrifies me. There was a lot of hepatitis B and, probably C, which was called non A non B.  Fortunately, I didn't get any shots back then, not even immunizations, because my mom refused. I did get all childhood infections, but escaped hepatitis.  

[neptune235]

Yep...Navy bootcamp, NS Great Lakes, Illinois in April 1976.

[Mr Liver]

"Men are very sensitive to pain. And most of them hate needles/sticking devices of any kind."

Just to be clear millions of schoolboys (myself included again) didn't flinch either. It seems that just soldiers do that.

You know plenty of women served in Viet Nam ,yet in ten years now I've yet to hear one story about air guns and HCV infection from a lady who served. Almost 3 million vets served in country and another 6 million that are regarded as Viet Nam era vets served at home and elsewhere . That's 9 million VN era vets. I would think we'd be hearing women vets citing the same accounts with vaccinations and the whole blood dripping down their arms  scenario with some madman at the helm of the airgun randomly firing off shots at anyone he thinks he can hit.  HCV infection among VN era vets is higher than the general population at large, but not by much. One very important consideration for the higher infection rates besides drug abuse and that is a tainted blood supply. Once HCV gets into the "walking blood supply" in a war  situation then anyone needing blood products (wounded and injured) can be at a higher risk for contracting HCV and more. It can be spread very efficiently and on a larger scale in this fashion than from an air injector.

How come I don't hear vets talking about the rampant drug use in VN much of it IVDU ? The place was flooded with white heroin, tar heroin, opium, morphine, and meth. This was a conscript military, not a volunteer one remember, and drug use was sky high in this era.

I'm not saying that it would be impossible to become infected through injections I just don't believe all of this flinching took place on such a grand scale. I have heard this same story repeated 100 times practically verbatim over the last decade. How come I never hear a vet simply say that he shot up in Nam and that was probably how they got infected ? Could it be that you can't get service connected disability from IVDU but just might if a claim of infection through an air gun is accepted by the military ?

Please don't take this personally as I am allowing for the fact transmission could take place via airguns, and I'm not attempting to impugn the character of anyone. I just question what actually accounts for the higher infection rates of Viet Nam vets.
Best regards, ML

[banarep]

I did not wince from the pain.  but the guys giving us the shots did not take the time to place the guns on the arms and make sure they were set.  150 new recruits lined up, air guns on both side, they got all of us through in less than 5 minutes.  I ended up with cuts on both arms from them sliding the guns accross my arms and the pressure from the air sliced them.  The guy in front and the guy in back were both bleeding as well.  

You sir may find that school girls did not flinch as much as service men, but I ben none of them had cuts accross their arms either.  

Even the VA has not admitted that there is credence to the airgun and hep C argument.  Vets can now get treatment becuase of this.  

And it is not Viet Nam vets it is Vietnam Era vets...which incompasses the period that the guns were used.

[banarep]

Here are some articles on the air/jet guns:

http://www.hcvets.com/data/transmission_methods/jetgunsDoD-pg6.pdf

http://www.hcvets.com/data/transmission_methods/SCimmunizationsbyjetgun.htm

http://www.hcvets.com/data/transmission_methods/jet_injection_public_health_lab.htm

http://www.ha.osd.mil/afeb/reports/vaccines.pdf

Is this enough, I can get more.

And by the way, I do think you are attacking vets.  I have personally had three friend die from liver failure, none of them ever used drugs, got tatoos, etc.  The only thing they had in common was that all three were in the armed forces between 1967 and 1975.  How dare you equate soldiers willing to fight and die for their country as being weaker than school girls.  Do your own reasearch and go out and talk to vets.

[FlGuy]

"How come I don't hear vets talking about the rampant drug use in VN much of it IVDU?"

Because there wasn't much IVDU there.  Those practioners did not need to shoot the stuff.  The purity made it perfectly effective by snorting or smoking.  In fact, much less snorting than smoking.

[Willy50]

I'm sure that you must realize that this is a hot button for many people.  Many vets were infected using a process which is a vector for transmission.  Vets have been fighting for recognition that air gun injection was indeed a factor.  The government has not been willing to own up to their responsibility.  I was reading a HCV pamphlet distributed by the VA in.....2005, or thereabouts and it still did not list air gun injection as one of the risk factors.  It seems to many Vets that the VA prefers to allege that drug use was the cause.  It also appeared to some that it was preferable to not diagnose this group, to then increase the stigma attached to the infection as a drug abuse issue.  I think that the US government could have done a better job of the way it was handled and THAT it may have cost people their lives.

I appreciated the insight into how having an already infected blood supply in Viet Nam further increased the chances of blood to blood contact in the field.  Given the tainted supply and the amount of blood shed in battle one might also conclude that there may not have been that much IVDU since that method of transmission is very efficient.

Interesting point about the flinching.  I would also float out the possibility that instead of attributing the blame to the person receiving the shot that the people administering the shot could also have been the issue.

     One has to wonder it the soldiers were given the same care as the grade school children as to whether the administration would have produced less transmission.  I have the general impression that the soldiers may have gotten been subjected to greater haste, less care and administered by perhaps less trained individuals or on in accordance with correct administration procedure.
  
     Hell, if they even knew what the procedure was they probably opted to ignore it opting instead for *production*. You see, it could have been the- get it done, pain is good attitude, "soldier up" attitude that contributed to the infection, especially when administered by cowboys and not trained RN's.  ; )

I wonder if you can compare the two different settings and conclude that the transmission rate would be the same?  Was there blood dripping from the guns at the grade schools?  Maybe the shots were administered by trained professionals and according to procedure.  Even today there are nocosomial transmission issues where procedure is not followed, whether through intention or ignorance.

best,
Willy

[tashka]

My husband never ever used drugs. And what I posted comes from his recollection of events. I hope you don't imply that he is just making this up.  It would be the same as saying that people who experience long term sides from interferon also just make it up.

We can not and do not want to get anything from the military for infecting Vernon. It is impossible to prove. This day is long gone.  It is enough for us to know and to understand how and when it happened. We have good insurance that military provides, and we are happy with that.

I don't know why there are less Vietnam era women vets that are infected, but I am sure that they exist. Maybe the reason is that there was much less women serving then men. Or maybe some of them still go undiagnosed, because it is well known that in women hepatitis C is not as aggressive as in men. But the reality is that there are a lot of infected vets. The proportion is much higher than in general population.

[jdwithhcv]

I know many guys who contracted HCV during their Vietnam Era service.  None of them used IV drugs.  These guys are decorated combat veterans.  What did YOU do in the war?

[FlGuy]

Although this is not necessarily germane to the discussion, but to set the visual correctly.  The air/jet vaccinations took place in the US.  Generally speaking, the settings were shortly after induction and took place at boot camps, basic training depots and the like.  There was no need for vaccination while 'in-country' since the process was to be adequately vaccinated before departure.
To possibly connect, or disconnect, some dots...It does not make sense that Viet Vets were the infecting source through the air/jets. You see, the Vets would not be in the innoculation line with the newly-minted recruits.  The Vets were already at the other end of the conveyer belt.  Therefore, if Hep-C was introduced in the long olive line it probably traveled in from the street with the recruits.

[banarep]

You are correct.  And it was the inability of the military to have the guns used correctly by the draftees that were doing the inoculations.  Again, when I went through the line it was one after another, then the next group.  I say over 150 men innoculated and not once was a gun cleaned or wiped down.  Also, since they went so fast, on mine they pulled the trigger befroe it was completely set and then they moved it....nice little cut on my arm...how do I remember that, I had the army sent me my medical records when I was trying to get help withmy hep c.

[orphanedhawk]

My husband got it that way.  He thinks he gave it to me but who knows? He's one of those who aren't affected by the disease and only got tested when I was diagnosed.
I know of a couple of other guys who got it that way too. Once has since died from the disease.

Does anyone think this is the reason  HCVis kept quiet, that they try to say its just a druggie disease?
Just think about how much money it would cost the Vets if they had to pay for this like they did for agent orange.

[portann]

Hi Bronzestar,

Welcome and I hope you can sort out your situation and figure out your best next move. Are you thinking about treating very soon or waiting for what looks like a better combo of drugs to eradicate the virus? This new protocol is currently in trials but may emerge very soon as the new protocol. It's worth your while to learn as much as you can about your options.

You (Bronzestar) say:  "I firmly believe that's where I first came in contact with the virus but it could be a number of other things too."

That sums up pretty well what people say when they don't know for sure how they got HCV. I myself say I firmly believe I got it through the doctor or dentist because I can't think how else I got it. Did I really?  I'd like to know but no, I don't know and never will.

I also have a firm belief that most people probably don't know for sure.  

Looking at your profile picture, I see a very handsome dude and a gorgeously large tatoo. Maybe the tatoo played a role, maybe not. Maybe you had surgery as a kid, maybe you went to the dentist, maybe you played 'blood brothers', maybe, maybe, gosh, so many maybes. And, as Mr. Liver said, transmission could have taken place via airguns. Maybe...

Vietnam, by the way, has the highest rate of HCV in the world, surpassing Egypt. (Egypt's high rate was ironically caused by a 'modern' mass immunization program that failed to use appropriate delivery equipment.)  And although I don't consider sex a high risk factor for transmission, there's a notable exception, and that's for very rough sex, for example, rape. With Vietnam having such a remarkably high incidence of HCV and with reports of rape during the war, that might be another possibility in the closet. Maybe....

The thing is to move forward and ask yourself if you're ready to tackle this dam-ned virus.  I think the VA provides opportunities to treat (could be wrong but there are people here who could point you in the right direction).

Best of luck. You can do this. Heck, I did.

[portann]

"This new protocol is currently in trials " s/b, "This new combo is currently in trials."

[banarep]

Read this:

http://hcvets.com/data/transmission_methods/Statements/Page4.htm

[Willy50]

I remember years ago a member in a forum told a small group of us that genotype 1's could not be cured of HCV.  They asked if we knew any and at that moment...... none of us did know of a member geno 1 who had an SVR.  It appeared that the assertion could be correct, but none of us believed it to be true.  Hahah; it wasn't.

In this case look at the number of actual women in the Viet Nam forces;
http://userpages.aug.com/captbarb/femvetsnam.html
"Army, Navy and Air Force Nurses and Medical Specialists numbered over six thousand.

I don't know the actual number and I don't know what they would include if it were enlarged to be the "Viet Nam Era".  
....But.....if that number were correct and one assumed a 10% infection rate....that would leave a mere 600 female vets in our pool to make assumptions about.

One might correctly argue that this pool was not involved in active combat and might have reduced risk.  
One might also wonder; were they in the same air gun lines as the other vets?  Given the numbers involved I don't even know if airguns were used on women.  Even if they were it would seem unlikely that it was in the same mass production innoculations.  But once again; I don't know.

I'm not sure that you have made a strong case that the infections were caused by flinching.  I have wondered if line pressure could also do it.  A bad regulator or more *zeal* could account for that.  

Probably everyone agrees that there was drug use in Viet Nam.  If it were truly rampant the drug use of either IV or by snorting vectors might leave us with higher infection rates.  It also does not answer the question about all the people who deny drug use of how they acquired the virus.  I often think that the notion of IV drug use gets "sold" to obfuscate the possibility of nocosomail infection, such as in this case air gun injection.  I believe that about 30% of us with HCv don't know how they got it.  Surely that percentage may also be reflected in the veteran population.

By the way, as Portann also touched on HCV can be transmitted though acts of violence, such as in hand to hand combat or even in contact sports.  Surely this must have also occurred in Viet Nam amoungst Vets, but perhaps less so with women veterans.

I'm not running down the people who administered the vaccines.  i wasn't there in either case; the schools or in Nam.  What I wrote was that if protocols were not followed the chance of infection would likely rise.  Yes, actual RN's or doctors with years of training and practice might do a better job than was seen in the military.

If you read some of those links you'll find that the protocols in using the airguns were far less existent in the 70's and were not adhered to especially in the military.  Adults of military age may have very good recollection about the event whereas I wonder how many first graders even remember the day.  Perhaps the fact that the protocols were revised and improved and the infection rate dropped could be seen as proof that it was not safe but when certain protocols ARE followed it is far more safe. ; )  It's possible.

I think at the heart of this thread and the upset is that Vets resent being forgotten, feel that they are not supported for their sacrifice, and quite often even blamed for acquiring the infection.  Who wouldn't be pi$$ed?

best,
Willy

[mikesimon]

The term is "nonsocomial infection" and it means "hospital acquired infection". Air-gun acquired infection would not be considered nonsocomial unless the procedure was carried out in a hospital. It's a nice term but it applicability is restricted to hospital acquired infections.
Mike

[Willy50]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosocomial_infection
Nosocomial infections are infections which are a result of treatment in a hospital or a healthcare service unit, but not secondary to the patient's original condition. Infections are considered nosocomial if they first appear 48 hours or more after hospital admission or within 30 days after discharge. Nosocomial comes from the Greek word nosokomeion (νοσοκομείον) meaning hospital (nosos = disease, komeo = to take care of). This type of infection is also known as a hospital-acquired infection (or more generically healthcare-associated infection)."
----------------------------------------------------

I see that one might even have trouble proving HCV is nosocomial given the time constraints, but it gets used.  (LOL; this is the correct spelling; in my haste earlier I didn't spell check, but I got in all the right letters.  ; )  )

I used the term a few times but particularly here;
"I often think that the notion of IV drug use gets "sold" to obfuscate the possibility of nocosomail infection, such as in this case air gun injection.  I believe that about 30% of us with HCv don't know how they got it.  Surely that percentage may also be reflected in the veteran population."

My point is that whether the infection occurred via airgun injection, through transfusions, or any pathway that in any way detracts from our health care system it isn't always welcomed.  I feel as though the virus has been given a stigma and that stigma in part is to cover for poor practices, protocols or ignorance in the state of health care when it occurred.  It's easy to blame the recipient for their disease, much harder to accept some responsibility.  The fact that the VA argued so strenuously and for so long that air gun use was not a vector of transmission speaks in part to what I am talking about.

I think it's another reason this thread has a bit of emotion in it.

Willy

[mikesimon]

It was incorrect usage and spelling willy and the longest post in the world will not alter that fact.
We strive for accuracy here - remember?
Mike

[FlGuy]

Is it my imagination or have some comments been deleted from this thread?

[orleans]

Not sure how I got it but I also braved the "gauntlet" in basic, Jan 1971 jerry

[Willy50]

I keep coming back to the word spelled like this;
nosocomial

You wrote;
nonsocomial, but I can't find that used even when I copy it into a browser.

I think you may be splitting infinitives.  We would use the term it if the action took place in a hospital but not if the same action took place in a health care service unit?  

Either way, my use was not limited to air gun infection but any other sources of medically transmitted HCV such as might take place in hospitals.

If one accepted the generic definition of "(or more generically healthcare-associated infection)" then that might also include the air gun injections or healthcare which was provided while in the armed services.

Willy

[Claire_MHModerator]

FlGuy, no... it's not your imagination.  A few posts were reported and they were removed because they were taking the discussion away from the original topic and into some pretty negative, uncivil territory.  I appreciate the way you folks brought things back to the topic at hand.  

Claire
MedHelp.org

[banarep]

Since my last post was deleted, let me try to say it again that is not uncivil.. Although some that are are still here.

mr. Liver,  I did read you whole post.  My point is that the numbers we are talking about are not just Vietnam Vets, but vets from that area.  I understood the numbers you gave, but then you went on to talk about the drugs, etc foun in Vietnam.  I never went to Nam, and yet I have Hep C.  I did not inject drugs, etc while in the service.  I do have a tatoo, but that came in the early 90's, after I had been diagnosed with nonA-non B.

I have contacted my American Legion post to find out how women in the military were inoculated, but what I can remember is that they did not have the air guns, but I can not prove that yet.

Also, the men (boys) doing the inoculations when I went in were not doctors, they were medics in training, just out of basic themselves, so no they were not completely trained on the use of the guns.

This is a very emotional topic for us vets.  And while everyone has the freedom to question, I take the offense in not questioning but the reference to school girls and gi's.  Again, I would bet the school girls that got the shots were not moved through at a lightening fast rate......

[TeeTom]

Just my 2 cents. I believe I was infected by the air guns. I enlisted in the Marine Cops in 1972 and had my physical in Nashville, TN. I have applied for help from the VA and the jury is still out, that was about 6 months ago.

[neptune235]

yep...some comments are deleted, and some other replies are not.  It makes for a choppy read if you arrive late.

There is another way for people receiving vaccinations in an airgun line to become infected.

If you don't buy the macho soldiers/sailors flinching, then consider a mean-spirited air gun operator.  For instance, if someone presents at the front of the line looking squeamish (or just geek-ish), an operator with a touch of a masochistic streak could also flinch.  All it takes is for the airgun to be in motion when it fires to draw blood.

[JCB1606]

I am a Nam vet (1967) and have hep. Air stream injected injectors were deemed as a cause of HCV in 2005 by the VA. If you feel that you were infected by the military file a claim. Please read the HCVvet.com site for more info. Disregard the comments from the wanna be folks who wished to be vets but could not. Take care of yourself and beat the dragon. BTW I took the treatments and been UDT for 9 months post TX.
Peace

[Diamond_Lil]

Good thread from 2008 which supports what most have said here.  
The information is undeniable, contrary to what a certain individuals may think.    

http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Hepatitis-C/Military-Veterans/show/82241

[desrt]

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/153/8/764

Incidence of geno 1 is the same as in the civilian population. This would suggest the stateside predeployment innoculations were a likely cause of the high incidence of HCV in this group. If original exposure occured in SE Asia, we would see more geno 6, 3e, and other area specific genotypes.

[ClippedWings]

Another vet here that served long after the Vietnam War and the Air Gun injectors were still in use when I went to basic training in the early 1980's. I also still received injections from the air guns well into the 90's. To say that you would have to flinch to get blood transfer through this system is inaccurate.  Additionally, this type of vaccine dispenser has been removed from service after most major health organizations recognized the potential hazards.  From the joint manual for immunizations:

" The DOD and USCG withdrew needle-free multi-use nozzle jet injectors (MUNJIs) capable of 600 or more injections per hour, formerly identified within the DOD supply systems as "hypodermic injection apparatus jet automatic:115 volt or foot operated" in 1997 due to safety concerns.  Their use of the same unsterile nozzle and fluid pathway to inject consecutive patients could allow transmission of blood borne pathogens. (I omitted the brand names). These devices remain unapproved and will not be used."

Comparing the women who served in Vietnam and their risk to exposure is difficult as women were denied many of the opportunities that they have in today's military.  Women made up less than 1.5% of the total military in 1970 and they were denied combat roles.  
Fellow Vets, the VA will recognize service connection for Hep C if you can make the connection between an in-service action and infection.  This is obviously extremely challenging for Vietnam Vets (or anyone already separated or retired) but there are people getting service connection everyday.  In my experience the VA caseworkers are not the "bad guys", they just have policies and rules that they must adhere to.  Good luck.

[IAmTheWalrus]

I served in 72 through 74. Fortunately, the blood I saw in the air gun lines was the only blood I saw, though.

I think if you look at the full study you will find that the DOD conveniently left out the late vietnam era vets from the studies. They looked at the increases during the Korean conflict and then tested military personnel from the 80's and 90's. At least that is what I came away with from the government studies on the issue. I think the data they left out speaks almost as loudly as the data they did include. The DOD could easily conduct a retrospective study that would definitively answer the question (of increased risk, not necessarily the air gun issue) if they wanted to. I haven't seen this yet. I guess none of the generals in the Pentagon wants to spend the money to turn over that particular rock. They have enough to deal with along the lines of Agent Orange and complaints from vets from the Gulf war.

I don't know about flinching among soldiers or little girls, but I can say unequivocally that there was plenty of blood at the shot station. To say that the shots were administered to the soldiers with less care than those administered to school children has got to be a huge understatement that only those who were in the military during the "draft" can appreciate. But it is not like the shooters were dipping the air guns in pools of spent blood, either.

I am with Willy and others on the way the issue has been handled by the government. The military is only too glad to cover their butts with the "rampant drug use" issue and the tainted blood supply. Of all the old 60's drug users, it seems the ones who ended up serving Uncle Sam have a higher incidence of infection. I can't prove it, but it is my gut feeling.  As for myself, I had previously used IV drugs, so I can't make a claim that Uncle Sam infected me, but I believe he did infect others.

[eureka254]

Perhaps it's relevant to think about the populations being compared: if were to put thousands of school girls in 1968 in one room (flinching or not), and thousands of young able-bodied young men averaging the age of 19 in 1968 in another room, what's the likelihood of hcv incidence in room one compared to room two?  The likelihood of infection is skewed not by flinching or not flinching, but rather the possibility of a source of transmission... or it seems to me.

And yes, my husband was a Vietnam Era US Marine, air-gun vaccinated, served 13 months in active (and bloody) combat, was med-evacked twice, no IV drug use, and has hep c type 1.
~eureka

[spider123]

Yup........Fort Dix New Jersey...Sept 29, 1969  
Delta 62  Boot Camp  ...  Given the same Air Gun shots
in Both Arms !    Blood runningdown everyones arms and Nobody took the time to wipe them off with a pad and Alcohol after each person !

Pushed us alll thru like a bunch of cattle !   Lots of us Vets are being Denied !

spider123

[Mary4now]

OMG, just the possibility of contracting HCV from the air guns is enough for me.  
The idea is to provide the best course of treatment for anyone with HCV.  I do believe the vets have a rougher road than most, and I believe there should be quality health care for all who need it.
Please lets fight for equal treatment.  Maybe the big wigs sitting in Washington will forego their health care until we all have health care.    HA  
May all beings be free from suffering.
peace,

[ibamech]

I have level 3 hep c and stage 4 psorhosis and I received the airgun injections. If you google- military airguns causes hepatitis c- You will come across a whole lot of information on this including a case won by a soldier for service connected disability.  I just talked to a va psychiatrist yesterday that confirmed all this for me. She told me to copy anything pertintent to this and copy it and highlight the parts you want the va to read and submit it to disability. I just lost everything I own on doctor bills cause the va didn't pick up the tab. I did keep my yearbook from bootcamp and I have 2 full pages of everyone standing in line with these airguns getting shots and there isn't even a rag on the table to wipe these guns off. So when the government starts doing the great sidestep and tell me to prove it I'm going to pull out this book.

[Teufelhunden]

As you can see by the number of post to your question, air gun inoculations is suspect in many cases but proving it to the VA is a dauntless task. HCVET.com may provide you some better insight. Something you also may consider is the intramuscular immune gamma globulins we received (the golf ball shot in the butt).  Check out some of my earlier post regarding the IGIM. Fortunately for me, the corpsman who administered my shot in 1995 annotated the lot number and the manufacturer in my health record.  Lo and behold, the lot number was one of over 280 lot numbers that were "urgently" withdrawn between 1994-1996 by the manufacturer for the possibility of contamination of Hepatitis C. The withdrawal included both intramuscular and intravenous products. Each lot contains about 17,000 vials. Drug companies were very sloppy throughout the 70's, 80's and 90's so alot of bad juju got through to the public.  Our public watchdogs were asleep in the doghouse most of the time. Teuf

[Teufelhunden]

Just to give you an idea how asleep in the doghouse they were, in a memorandum from the Assistant Secretary of Defense to the Secretary's of the Army, Navy, and Air Force dated April 1995, it was directed to begin using the newly developed Hepatitis A vaccine (HAV) in lieu of the gamma globulin inoculation. One of the reasons was the principal manufacturer had recalled it's IG products from the market ( Centeon, formally Armour Pharmaceutical were the primary providers to the DOD).  Somehow, that info never got down to the Corpsman level because I got stuck in July 1995. Not even a Gomen nasai years later. There's alot of us out there. They just don't know it yet.  Teuf

[11b40headhunter]

Kiss my *** Co. b 1/12 air cav & 229th assult helicopter gunner

[Diane12855]

I'm not a vet, I'm an Air Force Brat. My dad worked in the hospital pharmacy on base so I got my shots and blood work at the hospital and believe me, those airmen that stabbed me over and over because they couldn't find the right spot were no where as gentle as nurses at schools. Actually all of my on base medical experiences were much rougher than the civilian ones.

Diane

[carleck]

Yes I had them at Paris Island in 1970 . I am now in week 56 of treatment for Type1b post liver transplant in 2005 thru the VA. Hcv recurrence is common post transplant and does damage very quickly due to the immunosuppressive drugs taken to combat rejection. I am being treated through the VA who suggest that I do 96 weeks of treatment. I was undetected at week 6 ( 1st PCR) and remain so. Treatment is rough but end stage liver disease is far worse I know I have been there and don't want to go back!

[stalion]

I recieved a blood transfusion at an Army hospital in the late 1970s, I also had a friend who was in the Army at the same time, who also feels his hep-c came from the airgun shots he recieved. This disease mirrors the Aids epedemic, I truely believe this will be worse, because most are asytematic, till years later. I had elevated liver functions for 30 years ,I finally got through to my primary care person to do further tests that resulted in fining my Hep-C.  Stalion

[woody002]

It's not so much the Vet flinching but if the person giving the shot moves  then it is the same as the person recieving the shot flinching. I recieved my shot in Oct 1974 and there were about 200 of us in a little less than an hour. If the airgun is not held steady it will cut you and many men were cut that day. The problem is>>> IT IS BIOLOGICALLY PLAUSIBLE and if they are not used right they can and will  transmit whatever one person has to any others in line behind him or her. My shots were also at GLKS Ill Navy training center. Now  if so many people have only that in common and never injected drugs  or got commercial tattoos How the hell did so many of us get this?  I been told  by the VA that I got it from drinking  beer too much  and from smoking pot,  Niether of these activities afford the blood to dlood contact that the airguns did when used in the manner the military used them

[James10500]

Little girls and boys don't flinch, service men and women do. Gotta love the internet, it probably saves a lot of trips to the emergency room.

[fatguy47]

When you find someone who got Hep C, and to whom the VA pays benefits, please let me know.
And to the people who wrote about the school girl stuff and the blood flowing down the arm, the blood flowing means nothing.
What does matter, and I quote a Medic who gave the shots, is that " We never changed the tips on the guns until they were clogged with blood."  The injection shoots through the blood and carries it into the recipient. He got Hep C and has a rating for it and is getting benefits.
I have lost touch with him, but met him in the hospital after I got a liver transplant 7 years ago.
I was denied benefits from the VA.  40% of Nam-Era vets got Hep C whether they were in country or not.

[kolaking]

I have been beating my head trying to figure out how i became hcv+ 2 years ago when i gave plasma. a few weeks ago i thought about that airgun vaccination i recieved in Nov 90' at fort Jackson SC along with several hundred other intakes. I still have a 1/16" deep hole in my arm the size of a bb from it. I also remember the illness i endured about 10 weeks later in AIT in which my throat hurt so bad that I thought my tonsils needed to be removed...which is what happens about that time after you have been introduced to HCV. Now My wife has it when we checked her, my oldest daughter is ok but we need to check the younger 3. And as far as wiping the gun with a rag is proposterous...You cannot even see the HCV ....so even if you see no blood it does not mean it is not there. If someone used the same needle to shoot person after person after person is the same thing. Even with HCV being non-existant, they should have been smart enough to figure out that anything could be transmitted by people using the same injection, this was 1990 not 1790. i guess they figure that once you sign that paper you are expendable to whatever danger you incur withour recourse even if it is something that could have benn prevented like this....Syringes are what 1 penny or a half penny a piece at that quantity........Totally unacceptable when lives are at stake.

[kolaking]

I have been beating my head trying to figure out how i became hcv+ 2 years ago when i gave plasma. a few weeks ago i thought about that airgun vaccination i recieved in Nov 90' at fort Jackson SC along with several hundred other intakes. I still have a 1/16" deep hole in my arm the size of a bb from it. I also remember the illness i endured about 10 weeks later in AIT in which my throat hurt so bad that I thought my tonsils needed to be removed...which is what happens about that time after you have been introduced to HCV. Now My wife has it when we checked her, my oldest daughter is ok but we need to check the younger 3. And as far as wiping the gun with a rag is proposterous...You cannot even see the HCV ....so even if you see no blood it does not mean it is not there. If someone used the same needle to shoot person after person after person is the same thing. Even with HCV being non-existant, they should have been smart enough to figure out that anything could be transmitted by people using the same injection, this was 1990 not 1790. i guess they figure that once you sign that paper you are expendable to whatever danger you incur withour recourse even if it is something that could have benn prevented like this....Syringes are what 1 penny or a half penny a piece at that quantity........Totally unacceptable when lives are at stake.

[fatguy47]

The guns are THE problem.  Flinching has nothing to do with it.  Leaking blood down the arm means nothing.  What matters is that the blood splashback in the cup gets shot into all the "lucky" saps behind the already infected soldier as he steps up.
End of story.
I got infected in '66 at Ft. Bliss.  I had a liver transplant in '06.  I'm doing fine as far as the transplant is concerned, but the meds are pretty hard on me.  I am a heavy truck mechanic and it's pretty wearing on this 63 year old with no chance of retirement.
The government didn't know about the problem much then, but they have done research and they know now, but it's cheaper not to admit it.  I have been refused a rating.
If anyone out there has Hep C and has a rating, please contact me as I am trying again to get a rating.
(Note seen the DAV office..."Greed is the VA coming back a second time to take from you anything they missed the first time.")

[ClippedWings]

It can be very tough to show the required nexus to establish service connection for you Vietnam Vets.  I retired from the Navy in 2003 and was diagnosed with HCV in 2007.  By that time I was already suffering symptoms of cirrhosis.  My Hepatologist wrote a letter to the VA saying that I could not possibly have contracted the disease and deteriorated that much in the 4 years since my retirement.  Because my record did not show any liver problems or hepatitis when I originally entered the service, I was granted service connection.  Oddly enough, in over 20 years of active duty service I never had a hepatitis test or a liver panel.  If you have any questions, send me a message.  My experience with the VA was that I was always able to achieve what I thought was a fair rating.  In my experience, the raters always want to award the sought after disability, but their rules (some of which are severely outdated) often restrict them if the proper service connection criteria cannot be met.  This gets very difficult if several decades have passed since the time on active duty. Send me a message if you want to discuss further.  Good Luck.

[Teufelhunden]

The VA requires a clear etiology for the source of any claim.  If it's not in your health record, proving it can be a dauntless task. With that said, it's not impossible to convince to the VA that the jet guns were the reason.  There have been cases won in favor of claimants.  I submitted 84 pages of jet gun documents to the VA in support of my claim. On top of that, 16 more pages of an immune gamma globulin inoculation that I received in 1995 while on active duty ( annotated in my health record was the lot number, pharmaceutical company name and the date ).  While the IGG proved to be the smoking gun ( lot number was recalled by the pharmaceutical company for HCV contamination as was almost 300 other lot numbers), when my disability was awarded, they made no mention of either the jet gun or the inoculation but they did award me disability for HCV, for my thyroid being destroyed during my 48 week treatment, and the after effects of Interferon/Ribavirin.  In all, I ended up with a 100% disabled rating.   By the way, the IGG was standard fare for military personnel deploying to areas that may had been at risk for exotic diseases.  The DOD stopped using the IGG in 1995 because of the problems associated with the IGG.  Each lot contained around 17,000 vials, so for those vets that are looking for a connection, don't rule out the immune gamma globulins.  

[charox]

I looked into this a while back. I believe the answer was that some contagious illnesses were also transferred from patient to patient when those mass inoculations with the air injections were done.

[jljaries42]

Hi

Has anyone experienced pain in the injection site for years later?

I was injected in '81. In 83-84 I started noticing a sensitive spot on my arm ,in that area, when touched or hit with a heavy stream in the shower.
A few years ago, I started getting brief, spontaneous and sharp pains from that same spot.
I don't think I have Hep, but I have CFS and other symptoms which have yet to be diagnosed.
Thanks

[tashka]

My husband had this injection, but didn't experience long-term pain at the injection site. You should get tested for hepatitis C to be sure. This disease ofter causes no symptoms at all until the liver is seriously damaged.

[slpjr]

I entered  air force basic  in 12/77. I had the same air gun experience. I found out only 10 years ago that I had it for sure.  I had blood donation privileges cancelled by the red cross without specified reasons. They only recommended that I follow up with my doctor. I felt fine so I did not. I am yet well due to not being a drinker, smoker, or using recreational drugs. I am trying to get it service connected. Any suggestions?

[wanthony]

i was in the service in 1982 at fort dix we also had the air guns i was a virgin at the time  so sex was out i went to the hospital to give my brother blood 7 months after boot camp and they said i had hep B that my blood was not usable please email me if any one knows any more about this thank you           w,***@****

[AirbRngr]

I went in the army the end of 71.We all got the air gun injections and 90 plus % bled from the shot..I have hep c and end stage liver disease and am currently waiting on a liver transplant from Northwestern in Chicago..I am Genotype 1 and  therefore do not respond to treatment..They tried treatment but within 3 months I lost 100 lbs and some of my hearing and the $50,000 it cost..The VA would not treat me after I said it was caused by the airgun..It is not true that everyone will be ok if you catch it early and take treatments and change your lifestyle..Like stop doing drugs and or stop drinking..Of which I do neither..I contacted some of the guys I served with and a few had Hep C.....I read all kinds of articles and some from the VA..They knew these guns were defective..The "Process" of giving the shots and speeding it up was more important than we were..The draft was still on and every type of individual was in that line..I don't know about anyone else but that gun was used til it was dripping  with blood and they dipped it in a bucket and kept going..You hear it all, a tattoo,having sex,sniffing cocaine,shooting up etc,etc is how you got it..After most of us are dead then maybe the VA will help..

[orphanedhawk]

Your post sadly points to the truth about many things.
I've wondered if this is why hep C is still the silent epidemic.
If the military were held responsible they'd be paying people bundles.

My husband tells the story of the airgun shots, one to the other, no cleaning in between and men walking out with blood dripping down their arms.

On a lighter note, let me tell you, I had a tp in 2009, and currently doing tx, was und @week 4 and am doing great.
I made it. You can too!!

[1oftheclub222]

My partner was also one of the air injection crew, most likely where he got it from, not an IV drug user, he was only 17 when he went into the army and a pretty clean cut guy at the time.  My brother in-law and his 3 brothers all have hep C, all in the army, all had the air gun injections...seems like more then a coincidence to me.  It's a shame....

[vetwithhepc160]

There is a way now to determine if your virus and someone elses virus came from the same sourse. This would answer all the questions of when you may have received the virus. The goverment is unwilling to do this study because it may open a big can of worms for them, that should tell you something!!

[1oftheclub222]

do you have a source for this information, this would be interesting if indeed it is true...

[micheall]

Yes,I was in that line back in "1969"where they lined us up and gave our shots in both arms.Now I have three ways I could on been infected with hep c through the years.

[MarkoMaine]

Hello ,
Name is mark.
I`ve been dealling with this illness for 30= years . DAV says the same thing VA does . " That was 30 years ago ." and you had to had it with in a year after you got out.  Well wasn`t before 91 they new what it was .
I was told it`s to late to refill .
after all that has happeneed to me and my family . I still blame the air guns . and yes I saw the same thing. lined up and shot with them and awhole company going through at the same time in recpetion at bsic .
I`ve been through the treatments 3 times . i`m done . did nt work . Now a PN at the VA wants me to do the new stuff . but I`m non ervice connected . and can`t afford all . I give up . ....
Mark

[travdmb]

all of those sites have are down, do you have anything else?

[Willy50]

This thread is 2 years old and bananarep may read, but I don't see him post often here.  There are other threads in this forum, probably in any HCV forum and you can either use this board search engine to look for threads at MH or "google" the topic.

http://www.hepatitis-central.com/hcv/vets/toc.html

http://hcvets.com/

http://hepatitisdoctor.com/veterans.htm

http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Hepatitis-C/Military-Veterans/show/82241

Hope this helps,

Willy

[tacoma1962]

I didn't flinch and I bled on two seperate occasions once entering boot camp they lined us up like cattle and just kept going down the line I never once saw them wipe it off and the second time I was leaving to go over seas and it was just me but I still bled. 1980 us Army Ft leonard wood Mo. I have contact with 7 other individuals that contracted Hep c I am a 4 time non responder to the treatment 7 years I've been battling this disease so dont think you know everything!