Hepatitis C and building-up immune system

Is it advisable to build-up immune system with antioxident juices,supplements, and/or health foods before starting treatment for Hepatitis? If so what do you suggest?  Can it continue during treatment? Also, how should a non-affected person help an affected person through treatment? Thank you.

[jboyhk]

Can you show me clinical studies that any of those things you mention actually boost your immune system?
Those seem to be antioxidants which I don't think 'boost' your immune system.

Drugs such as 'interferon' boost your immune system. That is why you get flu like symptoms since your body thinks its fighting something.

[jmjm530]

NY: What you decide to do in your own life is fine but it ISNT ok to tell people anything else.
-------------------------------
I always get these fables mixed up. I thought Chicken Little had something to do with the sky is falling not having ones head in the sand :)

Many here, some with well-respected liver experts, have posted that they were allowed to drink in moderation after SVR, or even before, just not while treating. Studies also have been posted, plus commentary by the Cleaveland Clinic that also suggest social drinking probably won't harm the hep c liver and that alcohol does not fuel viral replication.

The sky isn't falling, things are just what they are.

-- Jim

[Forseegood]

I don't exactly agree with you. There are hardly any tests with conventional drugs, let alone these things. I'm not saying they will rid the virus for you, only conventional drugs will do that, but I don't see how anyone can unqualifiedly say that these don't do what you say...just another opinion...

[headsrtails]

Some may say its psychosomatic, but juicing fresh vegetable as well as eating healthy feels easier on my body and the liver as well... Whenever I ate a meat diet, white bread, processed foods, junk food and so forth, I would feel sluggish. Certain foods are easier to digest and have more vitamins and nutrients especaiily in there raw state,and promtoe health and well being and it makes it easier on that type of diet to deal with tx. It may be my own consitution, luck or the inevitable ha yet to come, but so far(hear me knocking on wood) I have no sx except 6 hours after Peg, when I intermitently feel flulike sx. Its true that I am only coming to shot # 4 and only on day 19 of ri. and all this may change???Hope not and hope that helps you in anyway. Headsrtails

[jboyhk]

I have to completely disagree with you.

There have been clinical tests with conventional drugs such as inteferon that actually show an increased immune response from fighter cells.

[Califia]

My answer to your question would be a big resounding "'yes."   You want to go in as strong as possible, with a low viral load and the lowest possible iron stores.  (As to the latter, google "lactoferrin" and see what you come up with.)   A very reputable hepatologist recommended to me that treating patients take 2-3 gms daily of pure phosphatidyl choline, a good B vitamin complex,  N-Acetyl Cysteine and SAME-e.  There's even a Japanese study that suggests that zinc could be especially helpful:  <a href=http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2893.2001.00311.x/abs/>Zinc Supplementation Enhances the Response to Interferon Therapy in Patients with Chronic Hepatitis C</a>  Further nutritional recommendations can be found at <a href=http://www.hepcchallenge.org/choices/coverpagep.htm>HEP C CHOICES</a>.  Best of luck to you.

[Forseegood]

youre arguing a different point....I didn't say that interferon didn't bolster the immune system, I just took issue with any one adamantly saying that certain supplements, herbs do nothing to bolster the immune system...that's all...

[Kalio1]

I agree with Headsrtails, eating a very good, nutritious diet of foods, in particular raw fruits and veggies and non processed foods is the best way to go. Also avoid alcohol and smoking or any medications that are hard on the liver. There is scant evidence taking any herbs or supplements actually benefit you but we do know a good balanced healthy diet with little or no red meat and processed foods is ideal. Also drink ample amounts of water each day and get plenty of rest.
Most Hep C patients take a multi vitamin without iron.
Many doctors suggest you not start up a regimen of herbs and supplements while on treatment as it could complicate or interfere with your treatment.

[Forseegood]

as you can see, we're all just offering our own opinions on these issues, and they can differ, even from doctor to doctor...prob a good idea to read everything you can pro and con and in the middle, and decide for yourself....none of us are experts on these issues and even the docs and researchers differ on these points...

[jmjm530]

Omitted, but probably more important than anything mentioned, is to get down to your ideal weight and stop smoking if you're a smoker.

Both -- being overweight and nicotine use -- have been associated with lower rates of treatment success.

While the rest of the advice is good, I don't think eating Big Mac's verus carrot juice effects your chances very much of SVR (cure).

(Thankfully Rocker isn't posting much this week or I'd have my head taken off for this last statment. LOL)

[Kalio1]

Actually the NUMBER ONE thing to avoid with Hep C is ALCOHOL.

[Kalio1]

I mentioned smoking, it wasn't omitted.

[jmjm530]

Kalio: I mentioned smoking, it wasn't omitted.
----------------------
OK. You get a gold star :) I'd still put my odds on a moderatly drinking thin person over an abstaining weight-challenged person in terms of odds of achieving SVR. Of course you will disagree but that's my story and I'm sticking to it :)

[Forseegood]

Taxi!!!! Taxi!!!!

[jmjm530]

LOL. Don't worry, this ain't gonna turn into an alcohol thread, at least on my account. For one reason, I'm going to bed in about five minutes. LOL. BTW had two salmon/avocado rolls tonight plus my usual edamame, etc and a nice cold SAPPORO LIGHT. LoL.

Be well,

-- Jim

[Kalio1]

Anyone with Hep C should not drink alcohol, it acts like jet fuel to the fire of Hep C and causes faster replication of the virus. The safest way to go is to not drink at all.

[jmjm530]

I promised not to get involved in another one of our "alcohol" threads but will just add (before I go to bed) that there are many of us (including leading doctors) that do not agree with Kalio's frequent blanket statements on this issue. I was allowed to drink in moderation before and after treatment but not during. All the studies suggesting alcohol is bad for you are older studies whose data was based on HEAVY drinking, not social drinking. Nite :)

-- Jim

[GoofyDad]

Speaking of Roseanne Barr riding a mechanical bull in a string bikini........ooopps sorry wrong thread.

Speaking of nutrition and supplements for the liverly disadvantaged, didn't you have some info for me?

BTW, doc likes the latest sonogram report. Says some of the observations bode well for improvement in histology for me. He didn't sound like he thought said improvement had happened. Which makes me wonder what changes did occur to make him see that in the crystal ball. I guess I'll pick his brain next month while he's picking my bung. Sending in snakes from both ends to see if they meet in the middle...like laying the atlantic cable. And yes, I'll be taking him a red rose for the occasion.

[jboyhk]

You are right, to be extra safe you shouldn't drink.

However I haven't seen a well done credible study on moderate drinking (all the ones I have seen are flawed and I am not even a statitician but can point them out).

If what you are saying is true, then shouldn't all alcoholics (heavy drinkers) with HepC progress to cirrhosis? The data doesn't support that thesis.

[Kalio1]

I didn't say that all alkies would progress to cirrhosis but if they have Hep C it is highly likely they will, we have no way of knowing who will and who won't progress, the safest route is no alcohol.

Anyone is free to google Hep C and Alcohol and see that overwhelmingly experts advise against drinking with Hep C.

[FlGuy]

If your doc is one of those cost-conscious docs who has only a single snake, make sure he goes southbound before he goes northboud. Of course, if he uses an inversion table the suggestion is reversed.  Oh yeah, get his first appointment that day.

[returntosender]

The studies show that the mean fibrosis score for hepc patients is higher on the average if they drink alcohol.  Drinking more than 3 drinks or so daily results in significantly higher mean fibrosis.  Drinking less than 3 drinks a day does increase fibrosis but not as much as drinking more than 3 drinks.

I cant see how an occasional drink (reading "not daily") would really matter at all.  There are probably more damaging things such as certain toxins in food and the enviornment that happen from time to time without our knowledge.  This subject is tough for me because I cant imagine the concept of an "occasional" drink.  My last drink was about 25 years ago and prior to that I drank as much as I could as often as I could.  Those that can actually have an occasional drink should probably feel free to do so.  For me, an occasional good bowel movement is just as satisfactory and doesnt affect fibrosis score at all.

[niceguy2007]

my japanese doc prescribed vitamin B complex. the highest antioxidents r found in pomegranates,followed by grapes.
daikins soothe ur liver, so eat plenty of them. their leaves r also great.
alcohol is a no no.

[NYgirl]

I'm sure that a bit of heroin once in a while won't hurt your liver but...is it wise of me whether I use it or not to say "oh it's probably fine if you only do a little?"

Please...just please.  Since 99.999% of the doctors in the world advise no drinking or smoking.....just say that.

Personally I smoke but I would not say to anyone that it's FINE to keep smoking because I KNOW it's not.  I KNOW that it hurts the liver and lungs but I am addicted completely and I admit it. I would ADVISE to try and quit completely, asap.  

I wouldn't say it's OK in moderation. And also what is to say what one persons moderation is?  My moderate drinking was a half a pint a day. My drinking drinking was more than a pint a night. And usually I put that a way every night between 5 - 10pm.  So a half a pint would be MODERATE and CUTTING DOWN in my eyes. I honestly thought that was the nights I was being "good".

And that is so BIZARRE but it's the logic of an alcoholic...and mostly - the people who ARE alcoholics would really have THAT MUCH trouble not drinking and they would be looking for ANYONE to say it's ok for ANY reason so that they would be able to continue. Once an alcoholic has one drink.....all sense of "moderation" goes out the window. It's not possible.

It's not our personal opinions that matter - it's the solid FACT and what the doctors TELL US.

What we think personally has nothing to do with it at all.

I will NOT debate is it ok or not alcohol threads any longer. Obviously it's NOT since it is a known toxin to a liver. What you decide to do in your own life is fine but it ISNT ok to tell people anything else.

Let's just say whether or not you want to drink or smoke it's up to you but they are BOTH known TOXINS to the liver and should be avoided completely at all times.

What a person then decides to do...is up to them.

EVERYTHING is based on that but it doesn't make any of it 'ok' or 'fine' or anything.  Now I want a cigarette badly, damn.

[jboyhk]

I'm not saying those things aren't good for you but I don't think it will do anything special if you have HepC. You should consider that programme even if you are healthy.

[beamishboy]

before trx i used milk thistle, samE  and during trx i continued to use lipoic acid, nac,zinc,vit c&e  and co-enzyme Q10,folic acid and selenium....also juiced anything i could get my hands on..carrots,beets,apples.felt good&tasted great!( pomegranites burned up 1st machine inna week-lol  )....i ate.red grapes w/ seeds..bananas, apples,oranges,lots of fresh mixed greens,peppers,garlic,onions,tumeric...yogurt, nuts,granolas,whole grain breads....and ice cream !!!

[cuteus]

my hepatologist suggested, vit e, zinc, & biotin while on tx, no to milk thistle.  you might read excerpts of her suggestions at the liverdisease.com site or borrow the book from the library.

[GoofyDad]

I'm gonna make one quick comment then perform an early withdrawl (withdrawal) (from the alkie thread). I'm prety sure it played a role in my progression. That online doctor-2-doctor movie (was it blah-blah-something for the Hep Guy?.... gee something's turned my brain to mush...) showed a slide with like 20% chance of progression to cirrhosis over 30 years, and with alcohol consumption (daily drinking 5 - grams or so?) the 20% jumped to 60%.

That said, I don't think a beer a couple times a week is any problem before tx, and certainly not with svr and limited damage. Regular drinking for 30 years with active hep C, obviously raises the stakes. So does a lifetime of smoking, obesity, or cave diving. We can each make the determination of what risks are tollerable for ourselves, in our lives. I think  the problem exists when we don't make the concious choices to accept those risks, and let the behaviors choose for us --   whether through ignorance or neglect. Know what you're doing, then make the choice that works for you. Be happy.

[FlGuy]

Cave diving? It that what it's called in the Bay Area now.  Or is it the current polite Marin County nom de guerre?

[jmjm530]

Actually, it's 60 grams a day, not 5 and from Shiffman's slide presentation module.  

60 grams of alcohol equals 4 drinks -- and as explained in another module, 4 drinks per questionaire in reality translates to 8 drinks per day.

So it appears that 4-8 drinks a day will triple the chance of cirrhosis which is consistent with the fact that heavy drinking and alcoholism put anyone with Hep C at risk for liver damage, and I assume that much alcohol will put people at risk of damage even if they don't have Hep C.

This is far different from a glass of wine with meals which unlike smoking, obsesity and saturated fats, may have some health benefits ( the heart) and certainly hasn't been demonstrated to hurt the liver.

[Forseegood]

This IS my last post on this subject, and it won't be just on alcohol per se...but on some words you've used... you said MANY HERE said their docs said it was okay to drink moderately DURING THEIR DISEASE PROCESS? On a "regular" basis? (everyone knows it's not okay during treatment and there is no debate about that) Many? Name 3.

Whether you believe in drinking while having this disease or not....we've all been right here with you...and really, the word MANY is reserved for the crowd that says their docs told them no drinking till SVR...I pay attention to this stuff...

You trot out one study, I believe, the Cleveland study, when I can trot out 10 that contradicts it, right off the bat...(been there, done that, so I won't go through the trouble now...:)

And if it's a question of "when" these studies were published or whatever (cause you usually say these other studies are "outdated") - if this "fact" were so compeling and/or substantial...I believe the CDC and the many other major medical sites would of reformed their original opinions vis-a-vis the Cleveland Study....and they "have not"....which leads me to believe that they are going with the "no drinking while having this disease stance" they originally put out there....they gotta have docs and researchers who follow these trends, don't you think? The CDC?

Bring out the many docs and many studies that support your contention, and I'll be impressed...I'm a researcher by nature myself, and when I was looking for research and studies that supported the "no drinking while having this disease contention" I could barely find anything that supported YOUR contention, and I looked...

All things considered, I think we can safely say, that the majority of EXPERTS on this matter say not to drink while having this disease on any kind of regular basis...(though, according to my doc, Return to Sender had a point...my doc told me that if you had "one" glass of champangne on your birthday and Christmas...he didn't see where that would do much harm)...but any kind of "regular" drinking, social or not, is strictly verboten when you have a significant LIVER disease like HEPATITIS C....

One case does not prove a rule, maybe many people know "someone" out there who bucked these rules, and ultimately SVRed anyway...but would these single cases change the minds of these experts? apparently not, because just because someone was lucky, DON'T NECESSARILY MEAN "YOU" WILL BE....a lady in my building has smoked a pack and half for most of her life, and she's 81 and still puffin...she's a wreck, but she's still alive...does that mean that everyone who adopts this lifestyle will be as lucky? Russian Roulette isnt a game I want to play...

So to be on the safe side, the MAJORITY of experts in this field tell us not to drink while having this disease...you can do or say what you want, it's your opinion and youre entitled to it...but just take care in some of these words youre using, like "many" people, and "many" studies...unless you can back it up...this is a question of "proportion"...

Other then this topic, I personally think youre "spot on" in most of the the things you say here, I've told you that before...and I think youre a great asset to this board...see the outcry of the newbies when you took a vacation, ha ha! There aren't scads of people who are willing to answer the same questions over and over like you do, though there are some...and I think youre a person of integrity and class as you meander through these boards...but we all have a "bone" of contention some time, right?...go on and answer all you want, I'm done with this...be well and have a great weekend...

Goof: if youre still with me after all-a-dis, you deserve a great big honking hockey trophy, one with a bunch of gold glint all over it, ha ha! I don't normally like to post my vitamin, herb regimen here, it's usually too contentious, and as you can see, I kinda shot my wad on this last post...I promise to remember to email you that stuff soon...good to see you Dude!!!!!

[Forseegood]

oh yeah, in case anybody noticed, this "did" turn into an alcohol thread, like I predicted, and prob everyone else...lol..

[jmjm530]

Why is it that a nice, attractive, Sushi-loving woman turns into a  spin monster when it comes to alcohol threads. LOL.

(1) Who said you could drink during treatment? I didn't. In fact, went out of my way to say that is not what I was told.  No one else said it either. Can you tell me who said it? Please? For the record, again, I said I was told it was OK to drink socially before and after treatment, not during. NOT DURING. NOT DURING :)

(2)The Cleaveland Clinic article was an analysis based on a recent study. I've posted that study and another recent study that shows no correlation between HCV replication and alcohol. To date, NO ONE has posted ONE recent study -- or any study for that matter -- that states that light drinking (1-2 drinks per week) is bad for the liver. I doubt if ONE of the TEN studies you cite make reference to light drinking. If so, please "trot" it out.

(3)Again, if you're so impressed by research, then show me ONE study whose research isn't based on heavy drinking. Just ONE. I've already presented you with two.

(4) You seem to have a problem with the credibility of doctors who allow patients to have a social drink. Let's start with Dr. Douglas D.  in NY who has said so on the net.  Then there's Dr. S. in Florida, at least from accounts by one of his patients here and over at J&F. And third, there's one nameless doctor I spoke to in their same league (and this is quite a league) who said the same. These are three of the leading hepatologists in the world who all say the same thing.

Be well.

-- Jim

[FlGuy]

But on the positive side we did manage to touch on bung picking cave diving and wad shooting.  Almost turned the corner on herbs and supplements.  Religion anyone?

[jmjm530]

I guess I ignored your challenge to name "3" people when I said "Many" have been told it's OK to have an occasional social drink.

I stick with "many" because that is my recollection from the numerous threads we've had on the matter, but here are six, including myself from the following thread and some others by memory.

There are at least a dozen more who posted such but as you know the search engine here is difficult to use and didn't want to devote more than the five minutes it took to come up with these.  

I include "Cuteus" because you know her and she has said she has the occasional glass of wine although don't recollect if her doctor gave the green light or not. The others indicated their doctors did. BTW I found amusing the first sentence of your post in the thread (post C32) in light of your recent post :)
http://www.medhelp.org/forums/Hepatitis/messages/42065.html

Snookmeister
ChevyGal
TimeDog
Rifleman
Cuteus
JmJm

[mikesimon]

I was told "informally" and "off the resord" (my transplant center has a policy of no alcohol period for transplant recipients) that since I wasn't transplnated for ethanol, was SVR and my liver was healthy an occasional glass of wine wouldn't hurt me at all. Of course, I'm a very compliant patient. Mike

[jmjm530]

Snookmeister
ChevyGal
TimeDog
Rifleman
Cuteus
JmJm
MikeSimon


Mike,

As we all know, 100% compliance (or as close as possible) is very important.

[Forseegood]

I vowed I wouldn't, but I didn't say you said that it was okay to drink on treatment, I never said that...most all of those people you mentioned do not say it's okay to "regularly" drink while having this disease, some  said they did a few times, THAT'S NOT REGULARLY...while having this disease...there's nuances here youre not looking at...if anyone one of them say it's okay to "regularly" socially drink while having this disease, they can say so...even the docs you mention don't say it's okay to regulary drink while having this disease, except Dietrich, and he's way out of line with what most docs think...post all these studies then, besides the Cleveland one...and all these docs besides Dietrich...what I said is it's a question of proportion, and majority....

[jmjm530]

I think one of the reasons I get so fired up on this subject -- other than to correct misinformation -- is because there is enough stigma/myth/limitations unecessarily put on the Hep C patient both in and out of the workplace, with insurance, and even sometimes at the dentist. I say "wonderful" if someone doesn't want to drink -- or not eat white flour, or drink non-distilled water for that matter -- but don't tell me I'm harming myself, fooling myself, or  I am "addicted" because I have a couple of beers a week, especially when I made this decision based on the advice of some very good doctors and current research. The Hep C burden is bad enough, let's not have those in the community stigamtize/limit/ ourselves even more unecessarily. There is life beyond Hep C.

[jmjm530]

Forsee: THAT'S NOT REGULARLY
----------------------------
You are the only person who has used the word "regular" in this thread other than Goofy. I certainly haven't, so PLEASE don't misquote me. In Goofy's case, he was referring to something else, not what one should do.

I can't speak to what others were told, but one of my hepatologists told me I could have 4-5 drinks per week now, and the other said 2-3 drinks per week. MikeSimon mentioned "an occasional drink" and someone else once posted not more than two drinks a day. ALL of these statments are consistent which light, social or moderate drinking as opposed to heavy drinking which is generally defined as over 60 grams of alcohol a day. That would be the equivalant of 4 drinks a day and to paraprhase the words of Dr. D,  -- those that drink that much (4 drinks per day) are likely to understimate by half. So the real figure for "heavy" drinking per the studies you often cite is probably closer to 8 drinks per day. For the record, I'm only averaging maybe 2 beers a week which is closer to 1 beer a week since they're "light" beers, meaning less alcohol.

Again, the older studies cited have a cut-off at 60 grams a day (4 drinks). We're talking well under half that.

[mikesimon]

I agree with everyone on this issue. Don't drink a drop during treatment. If you reach SVR and your liver is good and you aren't an alcoholic then go ask a doctor you respect what amount of alcohol, if any, you can safely consume. You're all correct. What a happy state of agreemnt I find myself in - for a change. Mike

[Forseegood]

stigma, shmigma, I'm not factoring all of this other stuff, let's stick to the points at hand...it's not okay to regularly drink while you have hepatitis...that's all I'm saying...please post the ALL THESE studies where you say it is...there was a few times that I posted numerous studies where it said don't drink while you have this disease... I'm not "fired up" over this, I'm sorry you are...be well...

Merely put alcohol and hepatitis c in a search engine, one of the first that came up was this...it's hard to find the "one" study you keep pointing out...even if this study is years old, the reasons for their conclusions are still valid, apparently...they probably did studies on why mosquitos cause malaria years and years ago, and yet those findings are still valid, reasons are reasons...


If you

[Forseegood]

2 to 3 drinks per week is regularly drinking...4 to 5 drinks a week is regularly drinking...geez, a goat is a goat, and a split hair is a split hair...I think I'm pretty much spent on this subject...wonder if anyone else is? ha ha!

Regular.... usual; normal; customary: to put something in its regular place.  
2. evenly or uniformly arranged; symmetrical: regular teeth.  
3. characterized by fixed principle, uniform procedure, etc.: regular income.  
4. recurring at fixed times; periodic: regular bus departures; regular meals.  

[jmjm530]

OK. I guess your strategy is wear me out by keep misquoting and misquoting and misqutoing me as advocating "regular drinking" which I never once said. Which no one here has ever said. You win. I confess to whatever you want me to. Can I go home now, I want a cold one :)

[jmjm530]

Can someone please shoot me :)

[GoofyDad]

bung picking, cave diving, and wad shooting.....

distill (uggggh) this thread down to its worthwhile components and between me and my pal forsee, we get the hat trick (with a nod to FLguy for not letting cave diving slip past in benign innocence)....

[mikesimon]

Sendin some slow lovin you beauty. mikin

[beamishboy]

slow loving with goofy's goats...now i understand the need for cave diving.....nicely negotiated All.......

[Forseegood]

ha ha ha ha! hey, shout out to you Mike Simon! Love that slow lovin all over this board!!!!seriously folks...all that stuff you gave me re my sis and tp info came in really, really handy...you have much more knowledge then I have, and you got some really good stuff for me, the docs actually read it, or for sure one of them did anyhow...she's finally doing some tests that they want her to do, or at least she says she will...she's a stubborn cuss, and in her defense, I guess you know what a long climb she's up against...you really did me a solid, cause I guess I get a little emotional with all of this re my sis, and it's harder for me to research it...

Goof: heard they are using goats to mow the lawns up there, especially in the hills....must pss you off....

Jim: hey lets go get a beer! I'll just get a sodie pop though....he he he....

[jboyhk]

I don't understand the logic here.

Multiple studies have shown that viral load is not an indicator of liver damage.

However, now you are quoting some dr who says drinking increases viral load which means its bad for the liver. (I would still like to see the study in full since the headline often is misleading or inaccurate).

So who is right?