I had a male friend,He had committed suicide,after interferon use.mow I am crying

[lizzakiev]

Hello there,

I was unsure how to make a posting on your website in relation to interferon. I am just starting to do some research into this medicine and your websites have been very helpful.

I had a male friend, age 38 whom recently completed a 6 month course of peg Interferon for the treatment of Hepatitis C. He was looking forward to coming off the medication as he did not like the side effects - depression being one of them. He was then told he needed to do a further 6 months of treatment.

He then went missing for almost 2 weeks until his body was finally washed up. He had committed suicide. This was very out of character. We all knew that he had been down and depressed but had no idea he was low enough to commit suicide.

It was a very tragic and sad end to a young mans life. He has left behind a wife and son.

I can say for sure if it was this medication that caused this. It certainly seems to have coincided with this medication though. After reading all of the posts on your website and the research you have done, I can't say that I would recommend this medication to anyone!!!!!!!!!

lizza

[geterdone]

YuP!

[Kit07]

Can't say for sure, but my gut feeling is this site is being spammed by Mr. Wright and crew.  The anti-txers.  Will send a note to Cindy.

Kit

[FlGuy]

A sad a regrettable situation, indeed.  As friends and families, we see the signposts along the way when we see ' that he had been down and depressed' .  The most regrettable is that friends like you see this in retrospect when the time to act has passed.  Truly regrettable, don't you think?

[BRL]

I agree Kit07. Good people have been told to get off forum and to shut up and
this saga continues.

[willows]

We have had spammers for about 4 weeks now, was not sure who they were, but you may be right about your guess.  The really screwed up thing is Medhelp probably can't do to much without hurting the truly in-need folks looking for info.  But we can recognize **** when we see it and ignore it.  

Been working for me.  Mostly, although some of it has been hilarious in a really sick way, I keep having visions of these people sitting at a computer, trying to make up some of the incredible stuff they post.   What a waste of creativity.

Willow

[Mister beagle bailey]

I am very sorry to hear about your friend and I also know how depressed many do get on these meds as I was one of them.  But if he had asked for help or told the dr, he would have gotten the meds to combat the depression.  There are many here on the forum who needed to take antidepressants while txing.  
Did he talk to his Dr about the way he felt?

Again, I am so sorry.

Beagle

[willows]

Perhaps my rant about spammers should not have been posted in response to a post where the spammers crossed the lines so badly and used death as a tool.  Now I feel bad.  

But only for my own bad judgement, I should have picked a "tiny hairs" post to trash these guys.

Willow

[BRL]

was much better when it was eaten!!

[mikesimon]

I'm crying a bit little too now. It so is too sad maybe boo hoo hoo boo I and will fill better. Crybaby mikey

[nygirl7]

I enjoy them so MUCH!

they make me realize that high school kids aren't as cool as we were way back when - boy the internet has made a bunch of pansy babies who hide behind keyboards and think they are really hot Sh&t hasn't it?

i feel very much superior in all of my cool genes when I watch all the idiots come in and make fools of themselves, you know?

[Mr Liver]

Hi Lizzie,
I can't say I'm surprised by some of the replies you've received. There are a lot of jerks who hang out here. You see, it doesn't matter if your story is posted with a hidden agenda. The fact ,the story COULD be true. Hundreds, more likely thousands, in the US have ended their life while on INF. To bring this up is to recognize the truth.This is a very serious topic and should be addressed in an appropriate manner. There are obviously many here who do not understand the nature of a psychotic event. These crass fools even derided you for not reacting quicker to your friend's depression, as if it was your fault.

First off, depression caused by INF is reactionay, NOT situational. As such. it can change rapidly at any moment from deep depression to a psychotic event.
I've been there. Out of nowhere you find yourself being sucked into a vast black hole of depression to the point that it can become a dangerous and severe psychotic event. There is nothing you can do at this point. It is aqn out of body experience for many at this point. You can see what is happening to you but can't do anything to stop it from progressing.You know all the things that you should do to relieve the symptoms, but there is no will there to do it. This just adds to your feelings of helplessness. If you have never experienced an event such as this then you have no idea about the depths of despair INF can lead you to. I always tell people to watch their mood on tx closely because it can change rapidly. In the treatment algorithm suggested by Roche, if a patient mentions sucidal ideation, you stop tx immediately, and TAKE the patient to the emergency room ASAP.  Unfortunatley this scenario rarely is played out.

So, if your story is true, accept my deepest condolences. and if it's not---no harm done as nothing you posted is out of the ordinary for IFN and people should be aware of all sides, even the ones that result in death.

Yours in truth,
Mr Liver

[ladywhy]

I too want to extend my condolences for your loss. There are obviously many "mental" post side effects as well as during treatment in regard to this bio-therapy. Anyone could see this just by reading the many posts today. Psychotic Rage, Mental Fog, Impatience, etc. please find it in your heart to forgive those who may not be thinking clearly. Liz, there has been people who have posted and were not real, who have nothing better to do but clog up this forum with spam, but the possiblity always exists that you very well may be grieving the loss of a loved one and as the literature that comes with every injectable states: it is a fact that suicide has occurred to patients on therapy with no history of depression. Don't blame yourself.
Thanks Mr. Liver for pointing out a few truths.
Y

[Mr Liver]

Tx resulted in a sustained biochemical response for me (the next best thing to a cure). In turn, this has resulted in my condition being described as "stable". I have been on the transplant list now for 6 years and I will evevtually  need a new liver, but I can credit tx for extending the time before this will come to be. One could hardly describe me as "anti-tx". YET, in spite of all of this I still could not recommend tx to anyone without warning them to take a good hard look at the Prescribing Information for INF. When 30% of those who discontinue tx do so because of depression, it is imperative that the topic is never swept under the rug. In fact, just the opposite.
Thanks for your reply.
Yours in truth,
Mr Liver

[mikesimon]

6 years on the transplant list? That really begs for additional information. I have got to ask your MELD and the center at which you are listed. I doubt you'll answer the latter but the former shouldn't be too hard. Mike

[mikesimon]

Depression is associated with HCV if you read my post. It exists independent of treatment. And by the way, I think you well may be a jerk too. Are you running for some office? You are so very sensitive but where have you been when people - real people - have needed help? I haven't seen you helping out too much. Creep! Mike

[FlGuy]

Take a look at the 'sidebar' box on this web page.  http://www.interferon.ws/

Although it's shot night (counting the minutes) I'm pretty sure some of my brain flatulence is not deja vu.

[Tater_ToT]

Good Eye!!!!!!

....& IF You click on More Victims.. & the 2005 & beyond,,, it takes you right to Lloyd Wrights site forum...."How About That"....LoL

Dang You Are Good!!!!!
;)

[ladywhy]

I'm glad to hear that you are "stable", due to tx. I give thanks to God! I have hope that i too will have at the end of this road...a positive response. To advise possible tx'ers to do their own research is extremely important...the good, the bad. and the UGLY! I was in the peg-interferon intron a/ribaviron (something like that :) clinical trials in the mid90's..I actally can't remember exactly when! It was before riba was FDA approved anyway.I went in clueless and remained that way the entire time. I became UND and never went back. Never went to a hep dr., had blood work in at least 9 years. I believed that UND meant I was cured so I claimed it as such. I look back now...and KNOW now what a complete ignorant a## I was.  Oh well... Now, I need to know everything I can and then I can sort it out. Ignorance is NOT bliss. I wish you well, Mr. and I will look forwad to reading your posts and hearing of your progress.
Y

[FlGuy]

Unless I've always been this way, and I don't think I have, age has given me the gift or curse of skepticism.  

[FlGuy]

Some of my skepticism is aroused when I see a piece that is fairly well-written.  People who are distraught and occupied by heavy thoughts are more likely to convey feelings, not grammar and punctuation.

[mikesimon]

Yes, you and I and a couple of others here know that there are side effects to HCV and they're well documented and rather severe. I hope you're feeling and doing well. Mike

[mikesimon]

Did anyone paint a rosy picture for you when you came here? This medicine is not fun in any sense of the word. I struggled over 3.5 years of TX and hated and suffered through every minute of it. But I would do it again if it helped me like it has already. I cannot recall anyone touting the ease of TX - just the opposite. But this disease is not benign regardless of what some people here would have you believe so we do the drugs and hope for the best. I think we all know that. Mike

[mremeet]

Wow, this place has been getting spammed more and more and more by this kind of ****. Everytime I log on and see what's up, it's to the point where there's 8 or 9 new posts about colloidal silver, interferon causing sexual dysfunction/impotence, brain damage, and now suicide. No end in sight either. I think medhelp needs to start more actively "administrating" this site. Otherwise this place is going right down the tubes, and right quick.

[cigaso]

I have been on this board since 2004 when I was dx and this is the first time I've seen Mr. Liver.

I must admit it is sometimes difficult to separate fact from fiction on this board. After a while, you can get a feel for the sincerety of posters on this board. Some people who post here are "drive bys" with their own agenda.

Depression is a very serious side of HCV and can be compounded by tx. This is only my opinion, but I believe everyone who is dx with HCV should get a psyche profile by a qualified Dr and prescibed the necessary meds for depression.

I advise everyone to Google "Clinical Care Options"  and check out the latest study and summary results on depression as a sx of HCV and on tx. It is eye opening and can explain a great deal of the effects of depression.

I tx 3 years a go and was taken off tx after 16 weeks for panic attacks and depression. I started the second round 10 weeks a go with proper medical supervision. This tx is not easy, but it can be doable.

I am a 54 yom, dx VL 4 million. Bx=Grade 1, Stage 1.

For me, the sx's from HCV were as bad as the sx's from tx. So I decided to tx. In fact the sx's are very similar: depression, fatigue, lack of focus, irritibility and overall malaise. My decision was based on my wife and kids. They deserve better.

If the original poster's story is true, I feel for you and the man's family. As far as Mr. Liver, please post to others in distress not just first time posters. Also, I believe you would fail the "duck test."

[cat_9]

I sure hope Lloyd Wright's crew isn't spamming the place.

[copyman]

i would much rather have depression and the "slim" possibility that i will blow my brains out from tx then possible liver cancer that will kill me for sure within a few months !

[mikesimon]

I admit I am out of sorts a bit. I can't stand it when this board gets abused by these spam artists and frauds. And then here comes Mr. Liver to lecture us about proper behavior. Tell me who in the world would go by the name Mr. Liver? We all have this disease or know someone who has it and a guy pops up calling himself Mr. Liver. He said he's been coming here since the board started. I have been here since 2003 or 2003 and I don't recall ever seeing him here back then. And I recall a lot of people who are no longer here but contributed when they were here. So if he was here he went by another name but when I asked him if he had used another name he didn't answer me. Mr. Liver my A$$. He is so sensitive to Lizaakiev but really, assuming she is for real (which I do not) what was her purpose in posting? Is she researching for a wrongful death action? What did she really say that inspired such compassion from Mr. Liver.  I cannot discern what was she was asking or saying or the reason for her post other than propaganda. But Mr. Liver wasn't at all surprised at the responses she got. And he's been on the transplant list for 6 years. I know a whole lot of people on the list but I have never heard of anyone who spent 6 years waiting. Could it be true? I guess it could be but it smells really fishy to me as do a lot of the things he's said. I think he's arrogant at best and fraudulent at worst. Maybe I should call myself Mr. Transplant or Mr. 2 livers or Mr. Transplanted liver or Mr. Multi-organ Transplant but that wouldn't be true. I just flat out don't like the guy or girl or thing and I hate this board getting used for some ulterior agenda. I apologize for my unseemly behavior but enough is enough and I have had enough of these creeps and Mr. Liver too. F him. Mike

[BThompson4]

This site has become almost nothing but spammers.  The Zhangites have ruled it for months, now suddenly numerous posters from the the Wright/Blaylock clan show up within days and sometimes just hours of each other with their undocumented posts that have all the earmarks of fake Madison Avenue testimonials.  There's really no way to stop any of it.

[bobbyullc]

i guese i am one of those "anti-tx'ers" mentioned here

i do believe some of us have no time to wait to tx.
a good friend started tx 10 years ago and the depression was so bad he had to stop. he died 8 years later. there are some who CAN NOT WAIT. i know that and hope none of my posts stop them from doing what needs to be done.

BUT i also believe there many who can wait and should not go through  this hell of tx for no reason.
please do read and consider all options. the best to all. i am svr and grateful for it.
i hope any who tx will reach svr.

[meki]

I don't mean to be rude - but I saw this exact post - the first one --- at another site... One that is anti interferon.

I think someone mentioned it already up there.

However - all that said --- INF has known associated depression and suicidal ideation.

That is why most people are given ADs to help out.

For me --- I had the suicidal ideation (thoughts) but KNEW ahead of time that they were going to happen - so I counseled myself to stop them in their tracks. I never let them progress past the --- Oh - maybe if I killed myself everything would get better phase.

Like ahem... killing myself would make things better. LOL!

But there were moments I did have to step outside myself and realize that the medicine not only makes you sick to your stomach - it also messes with your mind.

You have to be strong mentally and physically to go through it.

And if you aren't - then you have to be aware of the side effects.

But to me - because this was posted exactly - word for word - as it was at another site - I would have to say that this is spam posting... But for what reason, I cannot see.

Meki
PS. IF YOU - or anyone you know starts to feel even slightly suicidal - PLEASE --- get help. On INF or OFF INF.

OK?

[pigeonca]

I loved what you wrote about high schoolers playing tricks.  Maybe that is what's going on.  When I was about 14 my best friend and I wrote Ann Landers a phony letter.  She printed it. I can't even remember what it was about - something exceedingly melodramatic, I'm sure - but we had such a laugh.  Unfortunately I think Abbas, in all his incarnations, is up to something a bit more sinister.

[Mr Liver]

You need to get a grip on yourself son. You need to quit obsessing over me, and do something useful here instead of running all over the board ganging up on people with your buddies. You have to lead a pretty sad existence to be reduced to doing this with your days.

Mike, do a search on my posts. I think they speak for themselves. You spend half the time here indulging in some sort of group paranoia and dissing people who may, or may not be for INF. I don't think the crowd here who favors tx is under represented. Do you ? Why the fear of those who don't care for INF for whatever reason (there are plenty).

You don't deserve an answer but I'll give you one anyway. MELD fluctuates between 8 and 12. Has for SIX AND A-HALF years.

I never said I was here under the name Mr Liver. And as for names, what the hell does it matter? This is the internet---be who you want to be. You and your delusional friends need to focus on the purpose of this forum and leave your paranoid tendencies at the door, and quit ignoring people because one of you has a "hunch" about the poster. Grow up.

And Mike you really should stop the personal attacks. I didn't attack you, unless you felt the shoe fit when I said this place had a few jerks.

I am well aware of depression caused not only by HCV but ALL chronic diseases. This is SITUATIONAL and does add to the depression produced by INF.

You and your ilk spam this board more than any other members with your boring diatribes and obsessing over who is who as if it mattered.

This would be a much better site if you left and took your pals with you.

Mr Liver

[Mr Liver]

Most of you folks do not fully understand the meaning of SPAM. Go check out geterdones 10,000 word post. Now, THAT'S SPAM. Got it ? And I don't recall one person saying squat to him/her. You gutless wonders.

Mr Liver

[Mr Liver]

I made no judgement on the veracity of the post. But, let's assume her story is real. I know if it happened to me some of my friends would definitely let others know what caused my suicide. I have friends who really care about people and some would actually feel it was their "duty" to inform others of the real dangers associated with INF. And since my friends are smart, they wouldn't be dumb enough to keep re-typing the same story over and over. They would copy and paste. But, like I said, my friends are smart.

And I will tell you what I told Mike. I NEVER said I was here under the name I have now. Apparently, I have seniority over EVERYONE here, since I've been coming over 6 years.. And for the record, I don't recall you at all, either.lol

Mr Liver

[Mr Liver]

The avg wait varies between the regions. My region averages 3 yrs on the list.
Thanks for your interest.

Mr Liver

[Mr Liver]

If you got back through the posts you'll see the most 'spam' here is put out by the regulars obsessing about spam.

Mr Liver

[Mr Liver]

Some of my skepticism is aroused when I see a piece that is fairly well-written

I truly believe you.

Mr Liver

[Mr Liver]

I attacked no one personally. But your friend, Mike did.

Mr Liver

[Mr Liver]

Some of you people need to grow up and behave like adults. This person wasn't trying to sell something. It was a story of personal tragedy. It doesn't matter if the story is real or not. Suicide DOES take the life of hundreds, if not thousands, of Americans who are on HCV tx with INF. Since this is a truth I see nothing wrong with someone posting it. beats the heck out of the lies I see posted by some of the 'regulars'.

I do not think the pro-tx crowd is under-represented on this site. And since this site is not owned by ANY of you ,and is PUBLIC , both sides of the TX story should be told. Anyone who tries to quash such discussion are the ones who have the agenda.

It is an important subject, and if this post was put up every day it still wouldn'
garner the attention that it should.

Death is a permanent side effect. It should not be denied the process of open discussion. It is low risk (< 1%), yet it exists. Obviously this topic is not broached often enough, especially by doctors. If it was, the dropout rate for depression wouldn't be as high as it is (30%).

If the shoe fits you'll probably be angry. Tough.

Yours in truth,
Mr Liver

[Mr Liver]

If you are that sick, I would tx , too. Obviously, you didn't read my post correctly. If you are looking for someone to argue with about the merits of tx then you've got the wrong person. BTW, the chance of someone with HCV getting hepatocellular carcinoma is 3%, So, unless you have severe cirrhosis I wouldn't get my knickers in a bunch over it. I wonder why you think it's OK to pooh-pooh suicide as a side effect, but embrace such a low percentage risk as HCC yourself as some way to bolster your 'argument'. That dog won't hunt.

By the way, HCC can be treated successfully. Suicide can't.

Yours in truth,
Mr Liver

[Mr Liver]

There are people here-are you sitting down?-who have been on the list for--gasp!- longer than me. Now, whaddya think about that ? Back when I was listed there was hardly any wait. They gave you a beeper and I had one friend who WAS GOLFING when his beeper went off and he went down and got a new liver. You've got so much to learn. LOLOLOL

Mr Liver

[mikesimon]

Calling me SON? Oh gee, that's touching. Save it. I don't like you and I don't trust you. Yours in truth - Mr. Liver - if you're telling the truth you don't need to say "Yours in truth" or "I'm telling the truth" or "honestly" or "let me be straight with you" or any of that stuff that generally suggests disingenuousness. Me and my pals don't need you for a lesson in etiquette or direction as to where to go or what to do. As to you being here the longest that may well be true but since you won't divulge your name you must have a reason for remaining anonymous. If you've been here that long and do not remember me you've got a memory problem. Search my name - it's always been the same - mikesimon.


mikesimon
8/17/2003
C7 Harley dude The studies on Pegasys show no benefit for type 2 and 3 to take more than 800 mg ribavirin per day. There was no increase in clearance for these types with larger doses. While I can understand your inclination to be aggressive, the notion that more is better doesn't seem to apply to anyone but type 1s and perhaps non responders and relapsers, and even that is still an area of disagreement. Also the fact that your enzymes have not normalized is not a pivotal issue in whether you are responding. I don't think this is unusual. Of course we would all like to normalize quickly but this is not determinative and I wouldn't be too concerned about it. I wonder if the ibuprofen could be a factor in your enzymes but, honestly, I don't know. I have been instructed to only take tylenol so I don't know about other NSAIDS and I am a transplant patient. GI.PA also said above that she prefers tylenol at limited dose. Also the severity of sides is no indication one way or another that the tx is working. It just isn't indicative at all. I would wait till your 12 week pcr and I would alo expect it to be good. You're close to the test so I would advise you to relax and see what the results are before you attempt any changes to your treatment. Hang in there HD. Good luck. Mike

mikesimon
9/21/2003
C1 beat Move the decimal point two to the left. 2 log drop from 149,000 would be 1490 IU/ML. This is an indication that you are responding to tx and have a greater likelihood of clearing the virus. Should you not have a 2 log drop the odds of clearing are significantly reduced. Good luck. Mike

MELD score 8 - 12
From: http://www.cpmc.org
Currently, the average MELD score for a patient undergoing a liver transplant is 20 nationally. The average MELD score for liver transplant patients in our region varies from 26-33, depending on blood type.

The average waiting time for a patient to receive a liver in our region, once a patient is placed on the UNOS waiting list, is 12-36 months. This waiting time may be very short for a patient with very high MELD scores and especially those with acute liver failure.

I won't address you again son.


Mike

[Mr Liver]

You and your friends are nothing more than rude bullies who troll through the board looking for someone or something to complain about. You're worse than a whining kid. And now you are obsessing over my name ! Get a frickin' life, dude.

Mr Liver

[Mr Liver]

I'm not sure why you want to keep getting your butt kicked, but I'm game.

Read the articles you posted.Carefully.

"liver in our region, once a patient is placed on the UNOS waiting list, is 12-36 months."

I posted 3 years avg for my region. Wait ! Isn't that 36 months ???

"Currently, the average MELD score for a patient undergoing a liver transplant is 20 nationally"

UNDERGOING A TRANSPLANT---DID YOU SEE THOSE WORD ???----do you think only those who have a 20 MELD or higher are the only ones listed ? The UNOS minimum for listing is a MELD of 6 !  I can't believe you had a tp and don't know these things. YOU are probably a fraud. This is basic stuff.

Mike your obsession with my name has progressed to the point that it has become unhealthy. Move on. Like I said, this is the internet. Live it up,son. Be who you want to be. And I DID you give you other names I've used--Al Bueman and Billy Reuben. LOLOLOL

Yours in TRUTH,
Mr Liver

[copyman]

well mr quiver liver, i agree with mike simone, i dont trust you either. your attitude stinks and soon you will not get a response from anyone here except you responding to yourself using one of your other names. people here do not need your smug remarks.  you mention about 3% of people getting liver cancer, it is actually higher. do you know what the % is for interferon suicide? less then 1%. so i will stick with my chances of blowing my brains out. and that may be much easier to do after reading your posts here!

[mikesimon]

One last time since you seem to like looking like a fool.

The only thing you said that sounds right is:

"For me --- I had the suicidal ideation (thoughts) but KNEW ahead of time that they were going to happen - so I counseled myself to stop them in their tracks. I never let them progress past the --- Oh - maybe if I killed myself everything would get better phase."

I am not surprised about that because you definitely appear unstable now. You better not do any interferon because of your unbalanced mental state.

I was transplanted prior to the MELD score being adopted. But with a score like yours your going to be waiting a while longer. I was on the list for 2 years - way way down at the bottom of the list where you are and a transplant for you doesn't seem imminent in any region. There are probably people here treating that would have a higher number than you - if you're even telling the truth, yours in truth mr liver.

A search under your other clever names comes up empty - funny how everything about you comes up empty. There isn't anything truthful about you - yours in truth mr liver.

So boy, be well and try to get a grip on your suicidal ideation - it's not a healthy thing to do - suicide that is - but you wouldn't need a liver so in that sense it's one possible cure for liver disease - if you even have liver disease.

Mike

[JodyLynn]

Thank you, you just helped me make up my mind not to have the treatments a doctor was going to start me on in two weeks. I'm bipolar first doctor i went to said he will NOT do treatments on me so i went and found one that would. I'll call his office on monday and tell him i have changed my mind. I'm so sorry about your friend and thanks again.

[Mr Liver]

I am not trying to bully anyone. If you can't detect the gang mentality which is rampant on this board, (especially, it seems from the so-called 'regulars'), then we are not on the same website. Attack my ideas, not me personally ,and we'll all be just fine.

Albumin, and bilirubin are both important in the calculation of a MELD score. So, you are a good detective, because you were on the right path.

Yours in truth and jest,
Mr Liver

[Mr Liver]

I don't believe I've met anyone so bent on making himself look foolish.

""For me --- I had the suicidal ideation (thoughts) but KNEW ahead of time that they were going to happen - so I counseled myself to stop them in their tracks. I never let them progress past the --- Oh - maybe if I killed myself everything would get better phase."

I didn't write that.
You really are having some problems, and I am serious when I said you need to stop obsessing over everything I post. Or, in this case, didn't post. lol

I was a 3b right before MELD.



You are going to blow one of yer gaskets one of these days if you don't calm down and stop all of these inane obsessions you have., mike. And does it really matter if I posted here under a different name before ? The fact is, I'm here now, so just sit back and relax and everything will be just fine. OK ? It's all about what we have to offer to others who come here for information and fellowship from others in the same boat. There should be no subject that is hepatitis-related that is off limits. I can't see how a negative post about IFN can become such a big deal. (And you really should read my posts carefully and you will see that I am not anti-tx).   Leave the censorship to the powers that be. If someone posts anything you disagree with, just counter such posts with facts, and you'll have no problems with the readers seeing through the bs.Or perhaps researching the subject themselves if it interests them.

Yours in truth,
Mr Liver

[TnHepGuy_]

"Hundreds, more likely thousands, in the US have ended their life while on INF."


Care to post the studies/papers which back up this completely fanciful claim???


David

[pigeonca]

I've been on this forum for a year now, and Mike Simon is one of the most - if not the most - giving, helpful, knowledgeable and attentive member of the group.  In fact, next to my hepatologist, he offers the best information and advice going.  Who are you?  What have you contributed?  As far as I can tell, absolutely nada.

[mikesimon]

Dave, do you have any idea who this wise old timer is or was? You've been around a long time so perhaps you might recognize him. He is a distinct personality. It is curious that he won't reveal his former name(s). Could he have possibly a predator way back when Thanby was here - hey, maybe he's Thanby. Now, that would make sense. The return of Thanby! Now that's exciting! Where is Scott - I know he'd be interested in this old timer, don't you think? Mike

[willows]

I'm a lot nicer person than you are.  I have never called anyone a "gutless wonder".   Who's calling who names, fool?

Anyone who would come here, talk the trash you've talked, say "I'm here to stay" stinks like a can of old spam.  Mike is the first to try to help anyone and I gotta tell you, even without reading your exchanges with him, you creep me out too.  

First you talk about ONLY 10,000 folks dying last year from Hep C, well, excuse me, freak, that is about 10,000 too many for me.  You toss those numbers around, forgetting they are someones husband, a wife, a part of a family.  What an asssshole.  Take your numbers and go away.

As you said...this is the internet....I can say what I want, right?  

[mikesimon]

I apologize for mistakenly quoting you and attributing it to Mr. Oldtimer. I would not knowingly make light of your situation. I have a family member who suffers from bipolar disease and I know how difficult and serious it is. It was my mistake and it was completely inadvertent. If I offended you I am very sorry. Mike

[meki]

Anyways...

I don't care who is who.

And Mike - no worries, mate.

Just stop. Mr. Liver is right about being able to represent both sides... I just wish he/she would not do it so aggressively - angry. That makes people rear up and be ready for fisticuffs.

There are pros and cons for TX or anything that you do these days, up to and including walking across a street where you might get hit by a Mack Truck.

INF has really nasty side effects for some people.

But - ME... I made an informed decision. I did not know there was massive Post TX effects. BUT --- I knew that death was a possible side effect. I knew that there were possible mental and physical side effects.

I knew that suicidal ideation was a possibility - and yes, it happened once or twice during treatment... however, I was cognizant of the fact that it was probably going to happen - so I shoved those thoughts away.

BUT --- I trusted my doctor - my information resources enough to make an informed decision. I chose to treat.

For me - treating and having side effects was worth the possibility of clearing the virus, so I could have an extra 20 years to live. Because when it is all said and done...

HCV might not kill you...

But the damage it causes, and the resulting diseases from the damage CAN.

And HCV is the #1 cause leading up to Liver Transplants.

And I did not want to have to have one.

I wanted a chance.

Because the morbidity rate of Transplants is a lot higher... And someone has to die to give you one.

I didn't want that.

I have a lot to live for. My daughter,  My family, My lost loves from High School --- An Ex Fiance, a Husband, My friends, My dreams... My life.

MY LIFE.

So - hearing an anti INF poster --- well ok. Prove to me they have been through it --- show me the truth... And I'll listen.

But I already made my decision and it worked for me.

Others have to choose...

And they should be able to see both sides...

As long as they are good posts - good information instead of just hash-slinging rhetoric - awesome.

I don't like Abbass' posts because they go nowhere - they have no substance - they mean nothing.

But IF... and ONLY IF... MR Liver explains the discussion --- and doesn't say...

with trumpets:

IT IS BAD - IT SUCKS - HORRIBLE - SCREAMING HEADLINES...

And explains it... Well... Uhm... I'll listen to someone's experiences... With the facts.

But - just cutting up the boards with invective criticisms. Kinda boring really - and not very informative.

People ARE coming here to get help - to learn...

Some of them are in the just diagnosed freaked out stage... And they are scared. Terrified.

So remember that - with what you post. YOU COULD BE CHANGING one person's life.

And they may need to take that INF to live.
OR that INF may kill them... They may be that ONE.

So - stop playing word games...

You could hold one person's future in your hands - with your words.

Meki

[mikesimon]

The MELD score calculation uses:
• Serum Creatinine (mg/dl) **
• Bilirubin (mg/dl)
• INR
**For patients who have had dialysis twice within the last week, the creatinine value will be
automatically set to 4 mg/dl.
The MELD Calculator is used for patients who are 12 years and older. After entering the laboratory values,
you may calculate the score by clicking Calculate. The MELD score displays in the MELD Score field.
You can also calculate a score by simply tabbing into the MELD Score field.


The PELD score calculation uses:
• Albumin (g/dl)
• Bilirubin (mg/dl)
• INR
• Growth failure (based on gender, height and weight)
• Age at listing
The PELD Calculator is used for patients who are under 12 years old. After entering the laboratory values,
you may calculate the score by clicking Calculate. The PELD score displays in the PELD Lab Value
field. You can also calculate a score by simply tabbing into the PELD Lab Value field.

MELD Formula
The MELD score is calculated using the following formula:
MELD Score = 0.957 x Loge(creatinine mg/dL)
+ 0.378 x Loge(bilirubin mg/dL)
+ 1.120 x Loge(INR)
+ 0.643*
Multiply the score by 10 and round to the nearest whole number.
Laboratory values less than 1.0 are set to 1.0 for the purposes of the MELD score calculation.
The maximum serum creatinine considered within the MELD score equation is 4.0 mg/dl (e.g. if you enter
4.3 for serum creatinine the formula will calculate 0.957 x Loge(4.0) for the serum creatinine portion of the
MELD formula).
If you answer Yes to the question: “Had dialysis twice within a week prior to Serum Creatinine test?” then
the MELD score will be calculated with a serum creatinine value of 4.0 mg/dl. For example, if you enter
3.0 for serum creatinine and answer Yes to the dialysis question, then the formula will calculate 0.957 x
Loge(4.0) for the serum creatinine portion of the MELD formula.


PELD Formula
The PELD score is calculated using the following formula:
PELD Score = 0.480 x Loge(bilirubin mg/dL)
+ 1.857 x Loge(INR)
- 0.687 x Loge(albumin g/dL)
+ 0.436 if patient is less than 1 year old (scores for patients listed for liver transplantation
before the patient's first birthday continue to include the value assigned for age (< 1
Year) until the patient reaches the age of 24 months)
+ 0.667 if the patient has growth failure (<-2 Standard deviation)
Multiply the score by 10 and round to the nearest whole number.
Laboratory values less than 1.0 are set to 1.0 for the purposes of the PELD score calculation.

[Mr Liver]

willow---I never called you nor anyone personally a gutless wonder. I said anyone who complains about spam and then says nothing to geterdone about his spam is a gutless wonder. The shoe must fit for you to get so defensive. And I have not mentioned selling anything. In fact, just to show your ignorance I've posted many times on this site about how tx has helped me..

"The number of people with hcv and lupus, scleroderma, thyroid disorders, and other rheumatic diseases is astounding - way more than in the general population".

It's neither astounding, nor that much higher than the general population. Can you post your reference please ??? Willow its more than ironic that the disorders you posted can all be the result of IFN treatment. Many ppl did not have autoimmune diseases BEFORE tx. You need to study alot more before you challenge me.

"I'm a lot nicer person than you are. I have never called anyone a "gutless wonder". Who's calling who names, fool? "

Why willow, the answer would be YOU. I am going to finally call you a name---hypocrite.

pigeon--your friend Mike has not been a nice person---read his posts. If you attack me I will return the favor 1000 fold. This is the Trump method. It works, just ask Rosie

copyman, if you bothered to read my post to you will see where I posted the percentages. How thoughtful of you to post them back to me.lol   And 3% is correct. For every study you find where it says 5%, I will find three that says 3%.

kit---You are just like alot of the people on here. They want someone else to do their intellectual heavy lifting for them. All of this info is just a google away.
"If they don't know how many people have it, how can they know how many die from it?"  First off, they have a very good idea of how many people have it. And if you do not know the methods used to arrive at such numbers then how can you possibly be into research ? That truly confuses me as there are many statistical models used in research. Multiple multivariate regressive analysis is a popular one. Google statistical models. As for my credentials why would I post them ? They might not be the truth anyway, right ? And it would simply open me up to even more personal attacks than I am getting now.As for my statement about the vast majority not needing tx let's walk through this together. Appx half of the HCV population knows they have been infected. The other half does not know. Since only 20% will progress to stage 4, which is where 90% of extrahepatic symptoms occur, the other 80% will die never knowing they had it. I'm sure you've heard the line "most people live with hcv, not die from it". Well, almost 2.5 million people do not know they have it so they don't treat. And well over 80% of them will live a full life without any complications from their liver disease.. Remember that the 20% who progress to stage 4 are not necessarily going to die from it.. So a reference is not needed since simple logic and the art of deduction can answer your question. As for references in general you are on your own. Occasionally I might post one, but not usually. If it means that much to someone to prove me wrong they can use that as motivation to get off their lazy butts and go do their own research. As for underreporting of death by liver failure, it's not even a consideration since it's pretty hard to conceal liver disease at that point. And the kidneys shutting down is a classic sign of liver disease. The medicos know what's going on. And I already pointed someone in the direction to find mortality stats by disease. Being a researcher you should have no problem figuring it out.

HappyHungry-- I have posted many times about my situation. If you read all of the posts you will see that I was personally attacked by Willow. You will also see where I did not cast the first stone. "take the time to answer my post"---You gotta be kidding. The ONLY reason she answered was to personally attack me.What do you do when someone personally attacks you ? Do you stand up for yourself or go scurrying away with your tail between your legs ? Until you got to this part of your post I actually thought I was getting an honest reply from someone. I don't feel compelled to "warn" anyone about IFN any more than I do to tout the possible benefits of tx. Apparently, you have me mixed up with someone else. But, to answer you anyway, if I had a friend considering tx I would make sure that he/she understood the risk v. reward concept, and was fully informed of possible negative health consequences, both during tx and after. Wouldn't you do the same for a friend of yours ?

People with a mob mentality are losers.They think they can pile on someone to silence them if any one of you disagrees with them. You're no different than a gang of bullies. Most of you have reading comprehension problems which does not help. If all of you would go back to my first post and read what I write carefully you wouldn't end up looking like the gang of fools that you are.

Mr Liver

[meki]

OK - you have some points.

However. You DO come across hard-nosed.

You're educated (or have the ability to appear educated)... So listen and reflect for a moment.

The way with which you write "feels" like you are sneering down your nose to others. As if what they say is insignificant to what you have to say.

Perhaps this is not the manner in which you perceive (sp?) your own diatribes, however, as I am watching - I am seeing that is how people are responding to you.

You may not realize it - however - everyone, including you - has something to contribute. Be it opinions, theories, beliefs, facts or ignorance. But it is a part of the contribution process.

The mob mentality happens when one goes astray and uses a "Holier-than-thou" approach to their writing.

If... instead of saying --- YOU ALL ARE WRONG - I AM RIGHT --- or implying it by your word choices (whether this is your intent or not) if you changed your wording... to say... OK - here's my experience... What do you think of it?

Then you would be a part of the group - instead of setting your self aside.

YOU - are making the difference by setting yourself up for failure by not making your commentary a group thing.

This board... and any other forum... is a "group" thing. Where people work together.

Even if they are on different sides of an opinion.

They elicit informative discussions - they work together to provide thoughts --- and share facts.

They don't blast away with anger.

Each person - each individual has had a different experience. Some good - some bad. Some pro TX some anti TX.

But they work together to support each other - find answers, help new people --- and they don't fight amongst themselves.

You don't have to agree with everyone... But the way that you disagree determines how they respond to you.

Keep your questions - answers and statements in a group discussion instead of splicing off to a "TROLLERS" mentality - and you will find that people will gladly work with you.

But with the type of posting you have been making --- you could be 100% right ALL of the Time --- but you're going to raise everyone's hackles.

You set yourself apart from the group --- you put yourself on the corner --- but then call everyone a "mob mentality" when you have purposefully elicited that response.

I'm not sure if you're aware of how your posts come across ---- and if you know the solution to it.

You don't have to "FIT" in... You just have to remember --- you're an individual on the other side of a computer screen ---- just like everyone else here... So we're all in this together.

You don't have to prove anything - nor does anyone else.

But try --- just try to keep a smile --- and try to work it all out.

I hope that I didn't step on anyone's toes by my little soap box here, but I think that MR Liver does have some valid points... He/She just isn't very good about fitting in... at least not in a writing forum. Where we are all looking for understanding - conversation - advise and good discussions --- things that agree with us -- or disagree with us... But that won't attack us personally.

And I hope that all made sense.

Meki

[ladybug52]

I have no idea who you are. I haven't been around long enough to even venture a guess.
However I just don't get this whole anger thing going on here.  I see your point and I have to say I agree with you, everyone deserves to be treated with respect, like you showed the woman who's friend commited suicide. You did a classy job of responding to her.
But then you kinda negated it all with your backlash at all the other posters.
When I give money away to those with a desperate story part of me says "They're just lazy liars" the other part says "What does it matter--- they're in need, who am I to judge?"
I'm no saint, but when I met a hitchhiker with his family, and a broken down car on the side of the road, I paid for gas and food. (left the wallet at home was the story, but then they started hinting at how long it had been since they ate) Part of me knows I'm being scammed but the other part says "so what? who's it hurting?"
I think this is all becoming absurd, our differences, and who's right or who's wrong. Maybe I'm being scammed again, but who am I to judge?
Bug

[Mr Liver]

Since you have deemd it to be a "fanciful" claim why should I bother with a reference ?

If a drug company could prove that the occurrence of suicide was less than 0.5% would they print that ,OR still use <1% ??? What does your commonsense tell you ? I have seen study results from Roche which show the suicide rate to be over 0.5%. And NO you can't get a reference. This info is from a regional (8 states) biotech nurse for Roche who has done nothing but study INF for over TWENTY YEARS. She is a personal friend and I would never divulge her name as it is well known in the HCV medical community.

So, for the sake of argument let's use 0.5% to start with. Do you know how many people have undertaken HCV tx in the US so far ? Appx 350,000. And NO, you don't get a reference. Go look it up.  Now, let's do some third grade math.
350,000 X 0.5% = 1,750 suicides. Use .75% and it comes to over 2,500 suicides. Use 1% and it's 3,500.  Use as little as 0.3% for the multiplier and it is still in the HUNDREDS at nearly ONE THOUSAND. So, as you can see it is not a fanciful number at all. You can apologize for that in any future reply

Do NOT attempt to diminish the real threat of severe psychological problems up to and including death as a result of tx.. Just because no one told YOU about these risks does not mean you get to quash the truth for others. INF is a very dangerous drug, as is ribavirin. They have Black Box Warnings for God's sakes. Don't try to hide the truth from people. That only makes me want to reveal ALL of the ugly, unspoken truths about what these drugs can do that much more.

Yours in truth,
Mr Liver

[TnHepGuy_]

Yep. It's not just anyone who can pull numbers outta there a$$ when they have no papers to back up unfounded claims - leaving only "personal references" and "just-take-mine-and-my-expert's-word-on-it".

Still waiting....



Mike & Scott: I doubt if this is the old Handbag herself, though there's always the possibility of this being one of her minions/proteges. And no, having been on this site since 2003, Mr. Liar is a newbie.

Hope you guys are doing well these days.


David

[Mr Liver]

Go back to my first post since coming back to this board and read. And notice how I responded to those few who did not attack me. If you are civil with me, I'll be civil with you. Insinuating that I make things up, or am part of some anti-tx conspiracy, or calling me a liar, or calling my character into question,is NOT the way to get a pleasant reply from me. One idiot here even called into question that I was on the tp list !!! I mean, really !!! Why would someone lie about that ??? (And YES, idiot is the appropriate adjective in this case).
Sorry, but I will NOT put up with this kind of bs. And I don't know of any adult who would. If you can find just ONE example where I attacked someone FIRST I would sure like for you to produce it.

As for mob mentality, it does not require much time, nor effort ,to find MANY examples of it on this board. People who pile on others usally don't have what it takes to challenge someone on their own. They have to rove in packs.


Yours in truth,
Mr Liver

[Mr Liver]

Personal attacks are the trademark of you and your pals, isn't it ?
Not surprising since they are a sign that you have nothing valuable to say, nor do you have the knowledge to refute what I have posted.

Does the prescribing info say suicide AND HOMICIDE can occur while on the meds ??? Does it ?????

Does it say <1% for suicide??? Does it ???

OK---Now YOU pick the percentage. Go ahead. Pick one. You are so damned smar,t pick one. It doesn't matter if you pick 0.1%, the number of suicides will STILL be in the HUNDREDS !!!
People who are mathematically challenged should not pick a fight over numbers.

Yours in truth,
Mr Liver

[meki]

Ok - granted - there are people who have banded together... and yes... there are quite a few who are completely skeptical.

But - as an adult - you should be able to take that knowledge. Knowing what you know - and you should be able to use that to assist you in your conversation.

Fluently - and eloquently you should be able to use your humour (which I did notice you do have - however deadpanned it is) to pivot the conversation.

When you have a fact, instead of saying Google it - say Here is the reference - if you need further research, I will be glad to assist you.

Instead of moonlighting on about who attacked who - simmer down... look at what they are attacking. Look at the wording. Read it differently - not from the heart --- but from the head.

You write from the head - with too much heart added in.

Step back and understand that the pack protects it's own.

They view you as an outsider - because of the way you post. Because YOU set yourself up as different at the very begining.

You're very opinionated - and very passionate - it makes sense if you read each post - separately and see how it spiraled down to this.

The 'pack' believes you to be fake (which it is true - you do NOT have to defend yourself --- it's a forum - why would you?)...

Part of that is because there ARE groups of people who have spammed --- for their own agenda. Read the posts again... See that part... Then read your words... The post was marked as spam..

You posted in support of that spam --- questionable eyebrows were tossed in... Hmmm is this the spammer? Hmmm...

And you didn't make it any better by getting nuclear on the defense.

You used bigger words - and a "snotty" attitude in your writing. That really irks those who are already thinking oh oh --- here's a spammer and the follower... sheesh - don't we get any relief...

They post something - which sets you off --- then you set them off --- because they aren't believing you...

You get rhetorically mean (because I can smell an insult a mile away, even if it is disguised in pretty words) and they get blatantly nasty...

And it continues to spiral.

I'm giving you advice. Re-read - don't get defensive.

You have valid points... You have good information.

You are like all of us - doing the research - learning...

And you're probably like most of us - dealing with the same reactions to meds or disease.

So SHUT UP ---- ALL of you...

Deal nicely.

Show facts when you can... and start thinking as a group.

WHAT IS THE MAIN FOCUS OF THIS FORUM?

To learn - To Help - To Share - To be with others who understand - To Educate

And individual arguments don't do ANY OF THAT...

Except make some people perversely satisfied that they got the last jab in.

I admit - I love a flame war as much as you guys do (obviously since it is going on.)

But what I don't understand is that neither side is actually reading. Both are just plunking away at each other.

So Mr. Liver - I am appealing to you to stop - breathe - take a look again and realize the situation... and calmly stop trying to defend yourself --- and just participate ---- HAPPILY... in THIS forum.

And y'all - try to chill just a little - ok?

The first part is *IS* spamola...

The rest well - sheisse happens.

Kiss and make up --- chill - take those celexas, prozacs, etc.

I believe in giving folks a chance.

PRETTY PLEASE??

Meki

[willows]

Hey, you gotta get your posters right before you go calling more names...I didn't post about....."lupus, etc. so many it is astounding?".   You've ticked off so many folks I'm not even gonna TRY to go back and find out who DID post that.  Doesn't matter, my little voice is ONE part of "everybody" and my little voice says you came here with a real negative attitude about IFN and now you are surprised by our response?

Soon, if the PI's don't pan out, IFN is my only option..again.  And I'm gonna catch an attitude when you come off like my daddy used to do when he didn't like my boyfriend's long hair.  Well, I grew up and I pay my own way now, on so many levels and nobody TELLS me what to think.  Share your own experience, but do not preach to me.

What the heck did you expect?  I mean really, if you aren't selling anything, are you here to make a point?  That IFN is bad?  You seriously underestimate my intelligence, I already know how poisonous it is, but excuse me, if I keep advancing stages like I am...INTERFERON WILL BE MY ONLY OPTION.  So if you can't figure out why we may have some serious attitude for you, well, go away and tell some poor diabetic how insulin is addicting or is going to hurt them permanently..call it an experience in attitude adjustment.  

You're gonna trash what is my only option right now and I'm gonna get riled up.  This is not hard to understand.

I belong to a gang?  I have gang mentality?  Yoohoo!  A gang of folks who have lived what I have lived, who have taken the needle, rubbed the alcohol and stuck themselves every Friday nite for months and months, a try that may only be 50% successful but it's all we've got.  I like a gang like that, I will live here, in this gang, for a long time, I think.  And be glad of it, feel lucky to be here.

[Mr Liver]

I came onto the board and posted to someone with a tragic story. I did not even say that I believed the story. In fact, I still don't know. Furthermore, I haven't seen anyone on this board prove that this was or wasn't a real story. And as I pointed out, it really didn't matter to me if THAT particular post was based in truth or not since it brought up a very important topic,i.e., depression caused by INF. This is a topic that should never be avoided when discussing tx.
These ppl all behave like their life savings are in Roche or SP stock. If someone mentions a negative aspect about tx they all act like that person is out to ruin their investments.

Like I have said already, if someone posts something that is NOT true about INF, tx, or anything hcv-related, reply with facts to refute them. Attack the idea, not the person.

I was tried and convicted based solely on a reply to a tragic story. This is the kind of ppl I can live without. This board would be better if they all left. In FACT, it WAS better before they got here.

Yours in truth,
Mr Liver

[meki]

No - not stock ownership.

But sometimes a last resort to a disease that IS killing them.

The only available "possible" redemption to a death sentence.

I agree - money is what drives the pharmaceutical companies. But we... the patients are looking for the cures.

And most of us will play poker with the devil - knowing full well we could lose. Just to possibly rid ourselves of the dragon.

Now - you come in ---- enter stage right ---- and you appear to sympathize with the GOOGLE ad word exploiters (SPAMMERS) and you also have some very nasty comebacks (even if other's don't get them --- out right --- the catch the condescending tone).

Ok - so people have played their poker --- or intend to --- and you just poked a few holes in the myth that everything is going to be ok - that they are going to win.

Yes.

Yes.

We all know that playing poker means we could lose.

Yes.

Yes.

We all know that there are side effects.

Yes - we all know they can be very bad.

But do we want someone raining on our hopes?

No - not really.

So getting the bristles up is where you're at. You can stop it all now.

Just chill.

OK?

Join the crowd --- you don't have to agree... You just don't have to be the pompous arse sitting in the back watching everyone -  with courvossier in a snifter  - calling everyone stupid sheep.

HCV makes everyone's pedigree about the same.

[Mr Liver]

Please explain why I would have reason to have a negative attitude about IFN when I have REPEATEDLY stated that it was of great benefit to me ??? I can't wait to hear your reply to this.

Stating facts and truth about IFN is not trashing it. And let's get one thing straight: This is NOT a treatment forum. No one has the right to attack someone just because their feelings about tx don't fall into lockstep with theirs.
Tx is appropriate when it is necessary and the POSSIBLE benefits outweigh the POSSIBLE risks. PERIOD.


Yours in truth,
Mr Liver

[meki]

OK --- here - to show you this story:

Google this set line:

"He was looking forward to coming off the medication as he did not like the side effects - depression being one of them. He was then told he needed to do a further 6 months of treatment."

Alright --- see the results?

Check the top one.

It runs back to: (TAKE OUT THE XX's I hate giving linkage to spam centers)

wwwXX.XXinterferonXX.wsXX/

Right? Following me so far?

OK - now remember your line about people owning stock?

Alright - you're fairly intelligent... Keep following my sense of logic here.

The people who run the site above are linked to http://XXlloydXXwright.XXorg/

This place sells what????

Ahh... Alternative what?? HepC stuff --- right?

Go take a look around.

Then ---- come back and read the story again.

You are ABSOLUTELY 100% correct. It's all about the money.

You are absolutely 100% correct - everyone should know that INF has awful side effects. And Suicidal ideation is one of them.

BUT YOUR TIMING SUCKS!

And you failed to listen to the other writers about what they know about... (these particular spammers) which makes YOU look like YOU are in cahoots with the SPAMMERS.

And then you got upset and became defensive.

Have you followed this far?

It's now come down to you being upset - people not believing you --- and thinking you're a spammer - whether you are or are not.

Did that make sense to you?

Simple yes or no --- if you followed that understanding... would suffice.

[shastri20032003]

Mr liver....I am been on this site for nearly a year when I got diagnosed initially and if it had not been for the likes of Mike Simon and a few  other helpful souls....my tx would have been more difficult than it has actually been

They have contributed a lot to this forum and deserve respect here and when I see them being called names by someone new on the forum(yes new,since you are not disclosing your previous name all said and done)...it really makes  it very pathetic and sad

Another sad part is that you do seem knowledgeable and should be going this knowledge and join this 'gang' to help the newbies, instead it looks we are having some sort of a crusade here.......

I am not one of the gang members here so this is a very impartial view. The rest is up to you

Regards

[Mr Liver]

I don't really care what Mike did for you. I'm only concerned about his behavior where I'M concerned. And if you read EVERY one of his posts to me I think any reasonable human will clearly see who attacked whom and who has been doing the name calling. And that goes for the rest of the pack. I have not initiated ANY attack on ANYONE. And I defy anyone,including you to show me that I'm wrong on this.

So, if they are truly your friends perhaps you should go to them and counsel them about how deplorable their behavior has been, instead of posting to me.

Yours in truth,
Mr Liver

ps---I'm hardly a newbie. I've been coming to this site for over 6 years. And it doesn't matter what name(s) I used. Six years is six years. It's really childish of you not to consider me an old-timer just because I won't tell you my name. Oh well. I'll just have to live with 'newbie'. lololol

[pigeonca]

I have never attacked you.  I've merely expressed a different point of view.  OTOH I have attacked Abbas because he is a spammer.  YOU, however, are a troll, and now I'm ready to attack you in spades, you schmuck.  So you've never heard of lupus etc. occurring in greater numbers among the hcv population.  Then you need to expand your meager knowledge.  Just google "extrahepatic hcv" and you will find 104,000 hits.  Here's one of the best:

http://www.hcvadvocate.org/hcsp/articles/Bonkovsky-2.html

It's probably too difficult for a mind like yours to grasp, but you might ask for assistance from somebody with a decent education, which you apparently lack.  I'm really getting angry!!!

[pigeonca]

If you don't like the way everybody in this group treats you, why do you keep coming back?

[shastri20032003]

You are right...my post did sound like counseling...so let us assume it is counseling
Mike Simon and the few others donot need counseling...they donot have a hidden name and so have nothing to hide and have a proven track record on this fourm which I believe a lot of forum members have already vouched for this

So why dont you challenge this 'gang' by disclosing your previous identity which will prove your track record and make them shut up instead of you spending so much time and energy and spouting so much venom on this forum which is leading to nothing positive?

The more you hide your previous identity the more reason for peoples radars to go up when you post........or it that your purpose?

This is my last post to you on this thread irrespective of any intimidating response(one of many you have had on this thread!) you give me


Take care

[Mr Liver]

Please post references of studies showing a DRAMATIC increase in autoimmune diseases for people with HCV. I acknowledged an increase. I just said it wasn't that much more than the general population.

It is a well known fact that tx triggers many autoimmune diseases. It is listed as one of the possible outcomes from taking IFN. I just found it ironic that you rattled off all of these conditions that have been linked to IFN usage as well. It kind of took away some of the punch to your argument.



can you please help me to understand the stuff below  which I took from the link you posted? I don't understand science too good and I sher cud use some help wid it.

"Interferon therapy of HCV infection may also trigger the development of autoimmune diseases, the most frequent of which is autoimmune thyroiditis (Hashimoto’s thyroiditis). This may lead transiently to hyperthyroidism, but eventually to hypothyroidism (underactive thyroid) and to the need for life-long thyroid replacement therapy (Bonkovsky & Mehta). "

"Damage to the retina of the eye (retinopathy, which includes cotton-wool spot formation, hemorrhages and arteriolar occlusion) is a frequent complication of interferon therapy."

I never knew how truth could get someone so mad. truth calms me. Its funny how we are all so different,isn't it ?

Yours in truth,
Mr Liver

[Mr Liver]

I had not been near ANY computer for 10 days until I posted yesterday. I came onto the site and the third post down caught my eye and I replied. If there was something going on here prior to that it's certainly not my fault. So how can I be blamed for poor timing ? Let's get real here. People jumped to the wrong conclusions. They ASSumed without READING what I posted. I posted that tx has kept me off of the operating table in my second or third post !!! Didn't ANYONE read that ??? Apparently not that one nor the many other posts where I have stated same.

No, you need to quit making excuses for your  friends who tried and convicted me without even reading what I posted.  They owe me quite a few apologies that I will never see. There's not one of them with enough class to do that.

Yours in truth,
Mr Liver

[pigeonca]

If you'd been in this group as long as you claim, you'd have surely come across at least one of my posts about my autoimmune disorder, a form of scleroderma called morphea.  It manifests as scars that look like the after-effects of terrible burns.  I developed it about a year and a half before my diagnosis of hcv, which came with an elevation in ALT and AST. (I had none of the usual risk factors, so I was never tested until then.)  Tx made the morphea worse, but now that I'm done and hopefully SVR (I'll know in October), no new scars have developed.  

My hepatologist speculates that my body had an autoimmune reaction to its own interferon, and that the pharmaceutical INF just amped it up.  I realize that my case is extremely rare, as are lupus and autoimmune hepatitis when they're caused by hcv.  However, when you start looking at non-obese diabetes (which BTW, I also have) and thyroiditis, psoriasis and rheumatoid arthritis, et al, you will find that these autoimmune disorders are fairly common among members of this forum and that they can occur both before and during treatment.  

But that's not the issue.  The issue is whether these diseases stabilize or vanish once treatment is finished.   I don't know the answer to that, but I do know that quality of life is more important to me than mortality.  We're all going to die, maybe tomorrow, but we want to feel good 'till we go.

Regarding all the deleterious side effects of Interferon, I read a lot and my hepatologist provided ample warnings before I began tx.  I went into kt with my eyes wide open, as I imagine most members of this forum have done (or not done - the choice is ours).  I appreciate your intention to educate us, but I prefer The Lancet.

[copyman]

there was only one person i have seen with the kind of anger that exudes from mr liver and that was from rev. could it be possible that mr liver is rev? am i the only one that sees this. it seems i''m always accusing rev of being someone else but it is because he was the one person that sticks out in my mind that upset me and many here. if i'm wrong sorry rev/scott

[Willy50]

Wow; 91 posts in a very short time.  And why is that?  

When Harry Truman was told by someone to "Give em hell Harry" he responded with something like; "I never gave them Hell.  I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell."

Think about why you are having "problems" on this forum lately, or at least perceived problems.

Some of that is due to the structure of this forum.  Essentially, a tremendous or popular thread simply continues down the page until it goes to page 2 and becomes virtually unposted in.  Many other forums do not use date based posting.  The popular ones simply return to the top of the page.  I sometimes think that topics that aren't "talked out" simply continue on as a new reposted thread, perhaps as this one will be too.

Some of it has to do with tolerance.  There are two sides to every story.  Every story deserves to be told.  It may be a fair request that the same story not be told over and over adnauseum. One of the greatest things about a bulletin board is that you get to hear both sides of a story.  I honestly believe that a sense of fairness, balance and perhaps even "the truth" can be arrived at when everybody gets to tell their story.  

Think of the odds; if only about 40-50% of the people who treat attain an SVR there should be many disappointed people out there.  Of those people there will be a group how have had negative consequences of TX.  Will any of those people who have walked that path be allowed a voice or viewpoint without being labeled as a spammer?  

This is only a hepatitis forum.  It is not even a HCV forum.  It is certainly not a forum that exists ONLY for one viewpoint.  Both sides should realize that the method which they communicate needs to be toned down IF they wish to be heard, understood and not dismissed due to their delivery.

Some of this is not really even the fault of members; it is in part due to the structure of this forum.  If there were different forums (within the HCV community) then people might be able to talk about certain topics with less chance of ruffling feathers.  I believe that treating.....doing TX is one of the most critical and difficult thing that one may do in their lives.  Ones life is hanging in the balance.  These people need support and a less threatening environment.  I support that.  I also support people who have various viewpoints.  It's hard sometimes for those top peacefully coexist but both sides have merit.  Both sides have their own truths.  Both sides deserve their own voice.  Part of the issue is that there is really only one forum for the discussions of this sort.  (the Community forum is more for non TX related chit chat)


Getting back to "Hell"....... when all is said and done many threads like this end up serving as some of the most useful threads.  There is often great information and thought that is offered up by both sides.  That is ONE reason many of us read boards.

A second reason that many people read board is for SUPPORT.  People on TX need to have a safe place they can go while they treat.  They may need support more that any time in their lives.  It can make a tremendous difference in their quality of life while treating.

People who have failed TX or who are on alternatives to TX while waiting also deserve to be able to post or have opinions too.  It needn't be a threat to those treating.  Posts of that sort should not be categorized as "SPAM"; that's pretty dismissive.  How about simply chalking them up as a viewpoint or part of the broad spectrum of experience of HCV?  If you think that a post is redundant then notify the administrators since I believe that duplicate and multiple posts are discouraged.

It's a good forum.  It's a good thread and useful points have been made on both sides.  Moderate your replies BEFORE you post.  Don't you wish that everyone did?  : )

best,
Willy

[mikesimon]

I know rev is not mr liver. I have known Scott for a long time and yes, he can get very angry but he has never masqueraded as anyone as long as I have know him. I know him both on and off the forum well enough to say this with a very high degree of certainty. I ask that you trust me on this point. I am not asking you to like him or forgive him for things he may have said that offended you. I just ask that you believe me when I say he's alway revinire in one variation or another and he's honest about who he is and what he believes - oh, and we don't always agree either. Mike

[ladybug52]

I truly believe you have been here before because I suspect you are someone who I have disagreed with in the past--hence you ignore my post to you.

Funny how you responded to every single post, but somehow missed mine.
Reminds me of someone else who was here under a different name.
We may have had our differences in the past, but oddly enough, I have a certain amount of respect for you. I've said before, we are just different.
I have my feeling for who you are, so I would like to ask this:
Was the 2nd tx successful? I know it was extended, becaue you didn't clear the first time. Hope you are SVR this time.
Bug

[copyman]

ok mike i take your word on it and sorry rev for accusing you once again. did you feel better using the "F" word in your post? did you ever think that is the type of behavior that gets you booted from here? thanks for wishing me SVR and i wish you the same. many things you say are right on and i agree with 100%. i have always said you are very knowledgeable about HCV and a real assest even though you have a very short fuse and blow up easily. this disease has a way of changing people. best of luck to you.

PS, fess up, were you sonic bandaid? LOL just kidding :-)

[ladybug52]

How can you forget:
Rev=cuteus=myown:)
(myown said they were twins seperated at birth.)
Bug

[Forseegood]

and the other is not far behind, one goes - as does the other...games at Medhelp, they'll go on forever, or at least until this virus is vanquished, then there won't be any need for a hep c theme (thank the heavens!)....hopefully then, we'll come here to talk about something else, like hybrid cars or something! but the games will still go on, beginning to think it's just the nature of these boards, and all the *various* personalities....

[TnHepGuy_]

If Mr/Mrs Lipper isn't a noob (which I believe is most likely the case - just looking to "puff up" it's resume a bit by acting as if he/she has been here longer than anyone else), then there is a possibility that this is the reincarnation of "hippiemom" & "Dr. Dee". If you remember back to that episode (which of course Mr. Liar could therefore tell us in grand detail, since he was here for not only that one, but Handbag and all the previous 'wars'), "hippiemom" had many of the same traits as this one - arrogant, know-it-all, self-proclaimed "expert", complete lack-of-patience, quick to strike out when cornered in their load of BS, etc. Soon "hippiemom" got the boot and we were graced with the next incarnation - "Dr. Dee" - a passive-aggressive "expert" with innumerable over-lapping details/traits as "hippiemom".

But either way, if Mr Lie-bag has been at Med Help since time began, it should be a mere piece of cake for him to regurgitate all that has taken place here in the past 4 years (my time-frame) and longer (e.g. - Mikesimon's time-frame).


David

[ladywhy]

What is the point of this....amusement...paranoia, is this exciting Sunday fodder...I don't know? It does have me glued to this laptop, and I keep putting it down and trying to get something done and picking it up and putting it down  ad infinitum  I can't even find the period   and anyone who reads me knows   I use alot of them   I better just move away from the computer   and shutter down
Y

[ladybug52]

Hello! You totally missed Ms Liver's point, it's not about you!

"I don't really care what Mike did for you. I'm only concerned about his behavior where I'M concerned."

It's all about her, oops I mean him:)

I like to think of that kind of self-centerness as something we females have a corner of the market on. That and holding up the line at the atm!

Stay well, what week is this?
Hugs,
Bug

[meki]

Actually I don't know the answer to that. I could hazard an opinion, but it would only be an opinion.

I think you should repost your question on the main forum - because honestly in all the posts here, it will get lost... and not get the proper attention it deserves.

But as to my opinion... and note... it is only my opinion. I would have your friend get a second opinion.

I would also try to find a doctor who can treat BOTH illnesses safely - with experience.

The mental illness/drug addiction side is hard - but if it is treated properly - and your friend truly wants to get better - he can be aware of the medicine possibly causing suicidal ideation. (getting the thoughts of wanting to kill yourself... it's below acting them out or planning them out --- but it is a MAJOR first step.)

If he has someone with him 24/7 that can be better - but no one can watch someone 24/7 and if someone truly wants to kill themselves - whether through a mental illness or a temporary lapse in reasoning brought on by medication... if the person really wants to die --- you can't stop them.

Your friend has to choose to live.

That's what it boils down to.

Choosing to live.

But - honestly - I believe that it can be done. I believe that as long as everyone is on the same playing field --- your friend can choose to make it through the treatment and all of the possible side effects of treatment.

Get all of the doctors together - tell them you want them to talk to each other. That it is imperative that he get treatment --- and the treatment of all the side effects. They need to be in constant contact --- and your friend needs the option to choose.

Good luck - please remember to repost this question openly on the main forum - it is a good question and it deserves good responses.

Meki

[desrt]

I'm not a huge fan of shrinks or docs who pass the buck, but I have to agree with your friend's doctor on this one. If the doctor sees something he considers to be a risk factor, what harm is there in getting a second opinion. A good shrink could get him on the right meds (if needed) before he starts treatment and he wouldn't take the risk of having to stop in the middle.

[meki]

"What is the point of this....amusement...paranoia, is this exciting Sunday fodder...I don't know? It does have me glued to this laptop, and I keep putting it down and trying to get something done and picking it up and putting it down ad infinitum I can't even find the period and anyone who reads me knows I use alot of them I better just move away from the computer and shutter down
Y"

Ladywhy - oh that was cute. And so true.

Mr. Liver - everyone.

Chill.

Who cares who is who? I think it matters not. We're all glued to this because in our own sick ways - we enjoy for a moment that this isn't all about being sick. This is something else.

So - let's all please ---- PRETTY PLEASE ---- get along.

And Mr. Liver - you're just like everyone else who has thrown punches...

"fighting a one armed man" "argue mathematics...." etc. You have your own way of eloquently expressing rudeness and arguments... Don't think that people aren't aware of the cutdowns with a sneer. Not everyone is as illiterate as you imagine.

However - with that said - you do have a certain charm and have some humour... So why don't you just use that charm and humour for some decent writing?

Everyone else. Does it truly matter who or what Mr. Liver is? Everyone here has differing opinions of what is right and what is wrong.

But it is the style of writing - the argumentative, sneering, fact basing that has you on the hunt for this person.

Each of us has gone through our own personal hell.

Perhaps "Mr. Liver" has his/her own hell going on as well. And these are just his/her perspectives of his/her hell.

Just like ours - yours and mine.

So let's all join hands around the campfire and sing kum-bye-yah or something like that...

Or - Why can't we be friends...

Or - Short People...

Or --- shoot - I dunno. Something happy and uplifting besides the hokie pokie.

And yeah - the thread thing --- about date basing from first post - I do dislike that also. But Hey --- I LIKE EVERYONE ON THE BOARD... With the exception of the people trying to raise their Google linkage and Ratings in order to bump up their websites in the ranking. Or trying to sell their wares that are hoodooo IMHO.

OK - so who's gonna start singing first?

I wanna see some laughter - and no more hatred.

NONE...

The only thing I hate is THIS DISEASE... which needs to go away forever from everyone's lives.

Meki

[MyDzire]

Question re: interferon/peg
Hello REaders:
A friend of mine has gentotype 3A and his gastro doctor has been very reluctant to start him on interferon/peg because he has past drug addiction issues and has had 2 closed head injuries and the dr feels he will be a high risk of suicide. my  question is, ok if you dont give him the interferon and he's at stage 4 now, he's gonna die, and if you chance the interferon he RISKS suicide... someone lives with this individual, can you override your dr's decision and demand the interferon? He would be on it for 6 months. The doctor now wants him to see a shrink and go through counsoling BEFORE he'll even consider it, but he's already sick and at stage 4, isnt all this WAITING for a shrink to clear him going be letting the disease progress?
your opinions would be appreciated.
Mydzire

[shastri20032003]

If Mr or Mrs Liver  is really the person as deduced by you...then my sentiments are the same as yours...that I have respect for this person and wish her(him?) a successful SVR the second time around in the extended time

bug...i think you are in the wrong line....you should have been a sleuth.. just think about this tonite....

I am already in week 18 of 24 and counting every day....thanks for asking

Has anybody realised that  in this never ending thread of 108 posts the original poster Lizza has only posted once? Wow....that must be some sort of a record for medical forums...

Meet you at the ATM machine....but I will ensure I am ahead of you!

Take care

[FlGuy]

I don't thinks it's unreasonable for a person to be fully examined before starting treatment. In your friends case that would mean the head, inside and out, full labs and eyes as well. Because he's a 3a he should not automatically think that 24 weeks should do it.  With at least cirrhosis, probably older he may have some aspects that make him difficult to treat.  In addition to getting the 'full look' he should consult with a liver speciaist to evaluate all the aspects of his liver condition and negative predictors.  If he goes through with treatment, he doe not want to do it more than once.

[Eisbein]

I agree with you, Mr. Liver is not Rev, no way.

I think Mr. Liver got booted at the old forum over and over again, and does not want Med Help to know who he really is.
Do you remember, about 2 1/2 years ago, there was a guy who was also Everson's patient, was for years on the transplant list, and one day viciously attacked Dr.C in one of his posts, and was never heard from again.
Can't recall his forum name...he went under the same name at Janis.
Do you remember?

Ina

[mikesimon]

No, I do not remember that. If it was close to 2 years ago I wrecked my bike May 6th, 2005 and I wasn't here for a while and wouldn't remember much from that time and 3 months afterward anyway. I think it's obvious that if he was here as long as   he says he must have reasons for not revealing his past identity. I know he's not rev and I have never thought for one second that he was - or anyone else other than a variation of rev for that matter. Mike

[Eisbein]

I called Ivette, she remembered, he use the name pkcolo.
I am willing to bet a penny, Mr. Liver is pkcolo.

Ina

[TnHepGuy_]

Ina, I think you and Ivette may have just hit the Liver right square in the ol' bile duct. Our arrogant "old time expert" appears to be nothing more than a dredged up, "look-what-the-cat-dragged-back-in" little pk.

You two make a rather good Sherlock and Watson.


Hope all is well with you these days. And please say hello to Ivette for me, too.


David

[mikesimon]

There is a strong similarity in the delivery. Who was pkcolo before he was pkcolo? I too have to hand it to you - he's a more likely candidate than anyone I can think of. It's a pretty sad state of affairs in my opinion. Mike

[mikesimon]

I forgot to ask you to tell Ivette I said thanks and hi, would you please? Mike

[TnHepGuy_]

Just in case anyone's extremely bored, here's one small example from about a year-and-a-half ago that shows pkcolo's .... er, ah ..... "style". This particular example includes a bit of pkcolo back-and-forth with Ina and Ivette (among others), too!

http://www.medhelp.org/forums/hepatitis/messages/40264.html


And for those who might be bored even beyond the above measure, surf this Google search and you'll get to see for yourself how pkcolo=Mr. Liver.

http://tinyurl.com/2s4tqh



TnHepGuy

[mikesimon]

Do you think he's any nicer since he adopted his new moniker? I don't see much difference but I may be somewhat biased. Mike

[Eisbein]

Mike, I have no idea what name he used before pkcolo.

Ivette said she would be back soon, but I am not sure about that.
I will say hello though, for the both of you.

I miss the old style forum, I am certain she will too.
More than anything I miss the way you and willing used to be able to link.

Stay well Tnguy, I have a soft spot for you and willing in my heart.

Ina