KNOW THIS, is could be the treatment nobody wants to give you, that will save you

This in not quackery it could change your life, it's modern not alternative medicine.
I will try to keep it simple.
one thing that happens as we age is we begin to lose our ability to make growth hormone.

this hormone is produced in the pituitary and is ESSENTIAL to tissue repair which occurs mostly at night in 3rd and particularly 4th stage sleep.

the goal of treatment is not just to kill the virus but to see the liver repair itself.

FOR SOME REASON Hepatitis can stop the pituitary from functioning.

If this happens the disease progresses rapidly, and you feel far worse than your years with lots of odd ailments popping up.

The test you need to ask for is called an IGF-1.
It stands for Insulin Growth Factor 1.
this is an initial test, since Growth Hormone (GH) is almost impossible to measure (it is produced in such miute amounts for only minutes each day, and particularly each night.) but the IGF-1 is easy to measure, an inexpensive blood test, and it's level indicated if any GH had been prodiced in the last 24 hrs.

If you have trouble sleeping or dreaming it's quite possible you are low on this hormone.
If you have autoimmune stuff, or trouble healing or exaustion same thing. Thyroid, arthritis, vitilago, fibromyalgia, even MS, where the body attacks the nerve sheath, and many more things are directly related. the pituitary is the MASTER gland which tell the others what to do. It's like the General, the thyroid is the next in command and on down. Our pancreas, our sex glands, are all part of this glandular system. when one thing breaks, then everything begins to break down.

Children who produce no GH age in ten years to about age 80, with all the accompanying pain. this disease is called progeria.

However, aldult onset GH loss is called Pituitary Dwarfism.
for some reason HEP people are often low in it.

In our teens our IGF-1 number should be about 400, this is because we are growing rapidly.
By age 50-60  150-200 is in normal range, depending on the lab.

If you are low on this test, most insurances will allow for a further test, (expensive) to prove you aren't making enough or any GH. My number was 40.    I'm in my mid-fifties, so this number should be seen at 90 years of age. This lowering of GH is considered a key in why we age and develop disease.

You have to go to a good endocrinologist to get this testing.
MY doctor insisted I couldn't have this, but I bypassed her for the initial testing, after 2 years of arguing, and sure enough....

the only draw back to this therapy, side effect wise, is it can mess with blood sugar, leading to diabetes. the idea is JUST to bring you up to normal, NOT turn you into Barry Bonds, or use it as a fountain of youth. It does have profound effects on the thyroid, mine is working agin for the first time in 30 years, and my fibromyalgia is gone.
there is a great deal of research now into whether this is a key to most autoimmune stuff, and Merck and others have come up with several oral secetouges (drugs that stimulate production of GH)

The trouble now is, it's expensive because the only REAL known treatment is the injection of the actual hormone, a 191 chain protein, very delicate, and the cost is 800-1200 per month. Naturally they don't want to test or inform us that this drug may be a key factor in healing, and the race is on with all the companies to see who can make the first inexpensive oral form of this hormone.

Bets are off as to the billions whoever wins this race will glean. But I put myself in a stage 3 trial just to get the oral until I could jump through all the insurance, waits for specialist and testing, and approval etc.

Before getting this drug, I couldn't go to sleep thinking I would wake up. Exaustion doesn't cover what I felt. Sometimes showering, dressing, and getting to the car felt like a marathon race the day after.

So, enough said. Do not expect docs to inform you of all this, but there is a plethora of stuff on pubmed which is how I found and diagnosed myself, looking the key to the fibromyalgia (before I discovered that I also had Hep C.)

I hope you all take this advice seriously. It's true, and I did my homework!!

PS, If you have ever had a head of neck injury from an auto accident you are also at greater risk of having this deficiency since whiplash can bruise or even shove this glands location, resulting in impaired function. I was never told of this either. Thank God for forums and Pubmed.

Take this seriously people. Even autoimmune attacks on the brain are part of this syndrome, I'm dealing with all of this, and don't want anyone else going undiagnosed.

PPS. I have 2 endocrinologists now, both willing to subscribe me growth hormone and the insurance pays, times are changing. they can only keep us in the dark so long, and now that I don't have to go to the library to read the New England Journal of Medicine, and Jama etc, it's just gotten a whole lot easier for us all!!
there are more doctors willing to fight to get you treatment if the insurance denies or balks.
there is also a program through Lilly Pharmaceutical now, to help fight the denials, they make the brand called Humatrope which I am on. Because of this, and my low number, I breezed through the normal "fight" some insurances give people.
Thank the Lord, and may this, my trial, PLEASE bless you all.

[HappyDeb]

i often tought about this, especially after reading Suzanne Somers book along time ago about HGH and all the benifits. The only question I would have today with Hep-C , would be , will it speed up my metabolisim and make the virus multiply faster???? I have a feeling this would not be good for us heppers. I am sure that you would not be abloe to do this tx while on intfn. / riba. tx. So haw can this help us with Hep. C , it for sure can't cure it ?  


                                                       Confused and need clarity, Deb :)

[merryBe]

loaded question::

neither my Stanford educated neuologist, Standford allergist, not my top tier hepatologist could answer this.

however, here's my theory. I am on it. It has cause all my fluid retention and fibromyalia (fibromyalgia) to leave.
It has also cause me to become slightly diebetic (diabetic), but it is borderline, so I control it with diet, healthy, so sugar, complex not simple carbs. small price for what has happened in the benefit dept..

could it cause your hep c to intensify. maybe. and I've no proof that it does or doesn't.
what it does do is cause you to begin to heal better and make more antibodies to fight disease. It causes cell replication so that could mean more healthy liver tissue or more fibrosis.growing, depends on what it does to your immune system. so far, it's boosted mine, I'm trackinf all labs, and my liver enymes are back to normal...so somethings working.

The verdict is out on GH gwowing virus because there is no HISTORY Yet, not enough is known.
find me some research
, seems to be none. I have started to get 3 colds my husband came home with, but they never fully developed. Thats good, cause before I wouuld have been twice as sick ashim. I don'y need any more virus the one I have is pleanty!

what it did for me is, I started resting again. dreaming for the first time in many years. waking up 3 or 4 times a night instead of 30 plus. so this better rest means better chance to fight disease.
It also returned my memory to me. My alertmess, mental acuity, ability to follow, all were lost before in "brain fog".
It also has made all the soreness leave my muscle tissue. Before, anywhere you touched me lightly felt like a bruise.
Growth hormone helps your cartilage repair, it helps teeth and bone to grow.
the list is endless almost/
My hope is that the virus will not also respond to the GH, that since the GH will boost my natural lymphocytes, white count, interferon, interfergen etc etc that all those extra fighter cell I'll be making, and injectiong as well, will give this virus a run for its money.

None of my doctors, all top in their field had any issues with me remaining on the GH for the duration of treatment as the return to normal function of the pituitary is viewed as highly favorable to slow any disease process. the only counterindication would have been had I had any tumors already on the gland. Mri showed I did not.

the verdict is out on GH causing cancer, not proven one way or the other. Obviously the list of things SOC can cause is just as long and scary. remember though that there are lots of conditions that happen to lots of people on treatments. A guy has a heart attack at 45 because he took treatment. doesn't mean the treatment caused it. could have been his genetics and a million gut bombs..or that he was a prison subject, still it will go down in the list of possible side effevts. there's no way to prove a drug causes evert reaction. Not when they are only around for a few years anyway.Part of the bad rap for GH comes from all the misuse, athletic and hollywood, but docs won't prescribe megadoses for people to become the hulk. A return to normal is the goal.

If someone did over do it, yes, tunnel carpel, muscle weakness, and other bad things happen.
but overdose on anything and sides follow.
If your blood sugars go higher, and you aren't willing to eat healthy and contol that, then yes again.
don't commit to a treatment you are not willing to deal rightly with. if it's Haagen daas no no life, choose wisely.

finally, they did a study on rats genetically breed with no GH. these were 2 or 3 eimes more obese and more tumors on the exact same calorie and excercise level. So not having this hormone is deliterious on so many levels it's not funny. Do some reading on pubmed, rather than suzanne summers website, and I think you'll come away with some excellent info.

Although the final answer, to this or any treatment is, they all have their possible risks.
Anyone with high blood sugar risks heart and other bad things. You deal, or you go blind and loose limbs, but most diebetics choose to inject and control the disease not let in damage and control them, right????
In this case, lots is still unknown, however, basic treatment for dwarfism and low growth children and people has been around for 20 or so years, with no real tumor/virus increase data that provable. (by provable I mean, if the kid get's the average number of colds as a kid not on it, it doesn't prove his injection of GH helped or hurt his didease rate. Statistics don't bear out increased risk at normal therapy levels, again minute amounts.
Now the wrestlers of the world are dosing at several times what is natural, this is a whole different ball game. So is overdosing on most drugs.

I'm still hopeful. It's a risk will I crash on the way somewhere today, or will my airbag inflate when it should....doesn't stop us from keeping what general knowledge and our goals in mind. Same idea.

.

I'm willing to be the only test tube if need be, but having read for weeks before deciding, my choice was benefit outweighed risk, same as for SOC. So that's just my take.

It doesn't hurt to get tested and see what the IGF is at. Obviously, if you are repairing ans sleeping like a 90 year old, as I was, thats not going to improve your chance of a full recovery.
for my case, it was a no brainer.
Hope that helps.
Some in here have been critical of me not giving links, others distain those who do. I'll be glad to share privately with you whatever I find, should this appeal to you; and vice versa hopefully.
Last thing I'd want is to steer anyone wrong.

[elm57]

ty  so much for your posts.  this is what i thought u were talking about.  i've come to think that i have a problem with my pituitary caused from the hepc or tx for the hep c. im svr typt 1 but have alot of the sides that just keep slamming me. never realy got back to normal and it's been 20 months since finishing tx.  i'm worse now than before treatment and the explanation that i'm getting older doesn't get it. docs have been worthless but i don't want to start diagnosing and treating myself.  made an appointment with an endrocrynologist and i'm going to get a 2nd opinion on the hep c to make sure it's gone.
  God bless you, hope you have much success with your treatment im praying for ya  elm

[HappyDeb]

Are you going to a longevity clinic or are you getting it from somewhere and injecting yourself ? Do they have it in liquid form and is it as potent taking it orally then injecting it ? I know that if you go to a longgevity clinic, it is very excpensive for the visit and shots. I really don't know for sure, because I heard  it from some people in conversation. Please tell me the information that you have on the goods,bads and uglies.


                                                           thanks, Deb

[merryBe]

nothing of the kind, I'm seeing a top endocrinologist, trained at Walter Reed, to whom most pituitary patients are sent.

I would not do this without medical supervision and approval and the real drug, it would be dangerous.

the product I use is Humatrope by Lilly. Just enough to bring my Pituitary back to normal function.

the expense to me is ZERO as the INS pick it up as I was legitimately low.

the tests, good bad and uglies are in the above posts. contraindication would be heart conditions....if you are diebetic (diabetic) it could mean changes in insulin level required, if you aren't, it could mean your sugars will fo up, since it kicks your pancreas and other glands into a younger gear. My thyroid went down, better functioning, my sugars are normal as long as I avoid sugar products.
MY sleep is much improved as is brain fog and exaustion. If it weren'y for the tx and spot of angry liver I'd be up and about much more because of this. Also, without trying I have lost 20 lhs this year.
the benefiys far outweigh the risk, but as I say, this is only if you legitimately need it.
MY level was only 20 percent of what is considered normal, so I did need it.

[Scooter28]

Thank you for your information. I will look and see what I can use to work with the VA. I know that I have PPMS I have one of the best nero doctors there is at the Barrows Institue DR. Vollmer if you go to the NMSS and plug his name in he pops up.He is the Dr. who gave me the second opion, and the nero dr and Rummy doc are the best in their field that diagnosed the Fybro. I am not sure about the RA the Viral count is there and then not, it doent matter though my bones, joints hurt every day. I think my body went through such a tramatic time with the Hep C treatment that my auto immune system went bunkers and that is what I am trying to prove to the VA They agree the Hep was from my Virtnam day's and give me 10% not much but they recently after I sent them a form for medical help so I would not have to pay so much on insrance and they sent me back  a okay and put me in priorty 1 which is the highest you can get, they will take care of me but will not up my service connected compensation. I have a appontment to just get checked in to the sytem on the 31st but the doctor does not say disability should be more. The last time I was working to increase it they blamed everything else on the MS not the Treatment for the HepC. It seems everything is blamed on the MS now I am just trying to prove what activated it being as soon as I came off the treatment things went down hill for me. Did not mean to ramble on just that I am on SSD and was approved in 45 days but I cant work now and need all of the help I can get before the PPMS gets any worse it is the worst type of MS. Have a great day. Scotter

[merryBe]

I'm so sorry to hear of your trouble here, but be comforted that you are not alone in the madness.
that was my point exactly to several docs with no reply.... was, what is the underlying cause.

Is it just my imagination or has the hep c AND the Fibro AND the MS etc. all taken a huge jump in cases at the same time?

In other words what caused all the autoimmune stuff, the virus, or did the immune system break down allow the virus.
It appears the former is more the case. Just my theory.

yes, I also went to Pill Hill here is Oregon, Cook and Bennett doing lots of MS/fibro/diebetes(also an auto immune disease research.  the trick to know is what happened first the chicken or the egg.

which we may never know. In any case, some thing taxes the system, left untreated it means more things go awry.

couple this with they NEVER tell whiplash victims their pituitary can be injured and quit...

they NEVER suggest testing pituitary in general practice...by the book...still calling it rare.

also, half of the baby boomers were exposed to radioactivity...don't believe me, go to the government site goggle nevada test site....and look at the map of where the thousand mushroom clouds came back down and which towns got nuked....hint, east coast no exception, entire farm belt etc.
also, look at the top diseases around the chernobyl site....again pituitary/blood/auto immune

it's pretty impressive what medicine does not know or share.......I'll shut up now before someone decides I'm whacko......but it's all true. Keep on it......

all I know is, when I was young adults died of cancer, or smoking diseases........then came heart disease when so many left the farm and still ate like they were farmers....now everyone has autoimmune.......you have to get at the why of it....AND if it's AUTO...then in theory it should be reversable, particularly if you kick out the one virus that keeps everything on high (and eventually confused) alert.
autoimmune just means your immune cells attack the wrong cells, this goes for demyelinazation as well/
hope that helps. and keep me advised as to your progress.

[merryBe]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:US_fallout_exposure.png

this exposure helped destroy out thyroids and pituitary glands.both essential to fight diseases
It's proven.

[ladywhy]

This is very interesting...
I e-mailed my sister this thread. She has had fibromyalgia, allergies, asthma...and more. Not yet 50 yrs. old. I hope she follows up. We did come from pretty "good stock." All our grandparents died of old age.

[Scooter28]

I can't belive it. I have thought about what you were saying about fall out exposure. My father was in the Navy during WW2 and ther was a lot of islands that got nuked to see what would happen before we did the nasty on Japan. I won't go into all of how the experiment went but there was a lot of ships etc. there to see what would happen. My fathers ship was blown around and a large hole was put in the side of ship from the waves and blast. I looked it all up and WOW! They had no protection and only had to rinse off with water and they stayed in the area for awhile. I wonder sometimes if any of my problems came to me through his exposure? I was the youngest and I was born after the war. I know alot of Vietnam Vets that came in contact with agent orange their children had problems. I am running out of energy just trying to chase down why I am so screwed up but between the Hep C treatment and things like that make me wonder.

[scratchinghead]

Could you please put everything you said into one sentence? Kinda short sentence please? I am too bummed out and don't have enough time to read all this even if my life depended on it.
Dirk Pearson talks about natural ways to trigger growth hormone release from your pituitary glands in a real old book called "The Life Extension Weight Reduction Method".

[merryBe]

ok, I'll try for 7 first, then rolled into one...here goes...

1.. As we age our glands stop working so well. that's why we don't have the umph we once had.
2. as gonads and ovaries slow down we see erectile/menopause arise.
3. as thyroid glands slow down we see weight/water retention/metabolism changes.
4. as pancrease slows down we see blood sugar/nutritional issues.
5.all these glands are regulated controled and repaired by commands from the Pituitary gland in your brain. Ergo if this gland slows down too fast it pushes us into all other glands beginning to fail as well.
6. Pituitary controls not JUST the command chemicals telling the gland to work...but the hormone called HGH (human growth hormone). this hormone tells the cells to divide and replace old worn out cells with new ones.
7. If you do not repair tissue...you will die. The general knowledge is that every tissue cell is replaced in a 7 year period. So you literally are not the same person you were seven years ago....except for bones...everything else has been replaced.

so in one sentence-
everyone needs to get an IGF-1 test to see if their pituitary is working at normal levels because if it is not, it won't matter what else you do to treat the disease or get well your liver needs this hormone to repair itself; in other words, if your brain gland (pituitary) does not give the signal to heal to the cells, you very simply put, won't heal.

does that help???

[merryBe]

yes, the verdict on some genetic mutations is in following hiroshima etc. the rate of thyroid and blood diorder all skyrocketed.
the chernobyl thing is far worse, with an area the size of california polluted with p239 and do forth,,,,pituitaty changes abound there.

the agent orange thing is pretty well known now...though whe they;ll really acknowledge or pay people whi knows.
they are paying downwinders 50 grand now....a drop in the medical bucket, I'll consider applying when feeling better.

the sad ones are the new ones, mostly from the gulf war....something sure did some of these boys in...I've been at the VA and it's a sad state of affairs. They got some exposures that stipped away all their health.

I think the reason to know is because most docs don't know.
like when I told my doctor they used to come in and grab all our milks away and say, no don't drink you milk today, it's radioactive" and she just sat there stunned and thought I was making it up.

but this happened every coule weeks all through grade school. The cow's got burnt, the farmers milked them anyway, neverr thinking the milk was toxoc...and we'd be slurping it happiliy when they'd figure out  oh, yesterdays batch was hot...and go call it all back.  too late in most cases I'd drink 2 quarts a day.....and they recalled maybe 19 times out of 1000 bombs....go figure.

[merryBe]

bump

[scratchinghead]

I believe you

[merryBe]

bump

[merryBe]

as of now, research has shown that in vivo at least Human Growth Hormone has shown no ability to make any virus grow, which is very good news. It helps us grow and repair, but not this virus.

[Mary4now]

OMG This is so interesting and complicated.  You have done your homework MerryB, thank you for sharing that.  I would like to put all these kinds of research done by patients in a file and then check back when all the rest of studies research are done to see how long it takes our medical community to get this information in the manner that allows them to treat us properly.  My provider only pays attention to information that comes up on her "radar screen".  She doesn't want to hear about Alinia until it comes up in her information base. She told me to stay away from herbs except for milk thistle because some herbs can be deadly for the liver... So I'm grateful that we have people on this site able to sift through whats real and whats not.  thank you, M4now

[sfbaygirl]

Hey, I am all over this!  IGF-1 That is the first thing I am asking my rhemy for when I see him this week!  Thanks!

[DoubleDose]

I am going in this week to request the IGF-1 as a starter.  My endocrinologist said to start with my GP, who is a real whiz kid, and knows lots about almost every illness.  I will see what shakes out, and report back to the board, as I suggest anyone else do if they pursue testing.  Let's see what our doctors say about this, let's compare IGF-1 profiles, and let's see who ends up going on GH replacement therapy!  I am really curious about this issue, and have long suspected that some central hormonal issue was the culprit in many of our symptoms.  Maybe this is why thyroids fail, and other hormonally regulated parts of our bodies begin to malfunction.  We will soon find out.

DD

[merryBe]

glad to be f help. You know, especially in a day and age when almost everyone has had a whiplash or head injury at some point, and with this virus, it just makes sense t test it.

Unfrtunately my GP did not listen to any of my symptoms and assured me nothing was wrong with my liver, so I went looking on my own and found this deficiancy fit the profile of my symptoms to a T.   Of course some symptoms overlap with those of HCV as I later learned. Hwever, I do think this has improved my chances of fighting this and perhaps generating some newer, healthier liver tissue.

In the research GH deficient rats burn calories at a much lower rate and are 3 times more obese on the same calorie excersise count, so not having enough of this is also bad for your heart etc.  
One of the key indicators for knowing mine was low was that I lost n weight on a 1200 calorie diet, STRICT.....and that is highly suspect of metabolic shutdown.

fibromyalgia is a catch all word for we don't know why you are sore and tired.
However, they are testing now both protein and non-peptide secretougues as they think the GH will turn around the condition.

as I said, it may also reverse and restore many things, such as arthritis, MS etc. It may not regenerate totally missing cartilage, but even if it were to halt the progression of these degenerative diseases.........

well it will become the next multi billion dollar pill.....as soon as they can get a pill they can sell for 100 a month, instead of the 1000 the shots now cost, I predict half the people over fifty will end up on it. this is one class of drug where it would pay to be in the loop on, for investment purposes.

[Ginger12521]

Thanks for sharing your research! The process in which HCV interupts our bodies complex terrain  is still a mystery in many ways. Dealing with the side effects of being HCV+ is a very important part of the whole healing process.

[merryBe]

here's smething regarding HCV and low pituitary:

The American Journal of Gastroenterology
Volume 102 Issue 12 Page 2724-2731, December 2007

To cite this article: Ursula Plöckinger M.D., Denny Krüger M.D., Alexandra Bergk M.D., Viola Weich M.D., Bertram Wiedenmann M.D., Thomas Berg M.D. (2007) Hepatitis-C Patients Have Reduced Growth Hormone (GH) Secretion Which Improves During Long-Term Therapy With Pegylated Interferon-α
The American Journal of Gastroenterology 102 (12) , 2724–2731 doi:10.1111/j.1572-0241.2007.01445.x


Prev Article Next Article
Abstract
Hepatitis-C Patients Have Reduced Growth Hormone (GH) Secretion Which Improves During Long-Term Therapy With Pegylated Interferon-α
Ursula Plöckinger, M.D.11Interdisziplinäres Stoffwechsel-Centrum, Denny Krüger, M.D.11Interdisziplinäres Stoffwechsel-Centrum, Alexandra Bergk, M.D.22Med. Klinik m. S. Hepatologie und Gastroenterologie, Charité-Universitätsmedizin Berlin, Campus Virchow-Klinikum, Berlin, Germany, Viola Weich, M.D.22Med. Klinik m. S. Hepatologie und Gastroenterologie, Charité-Universitätsmedizin Berlin, Campus Virchow-Klinikum, Berlin, Germany, Bertram Wiedenmann, M.D.22Med. Klinik m. S. Hepatologie und Gastroenterologie, Charité-Universitätsmedizin Berlin, Campus Virchow-Klinikum, Berlin, Germany, and Thomas Berg, M.D.22Med. Klinik m. S. Hepatologie und Gastroenterologie, Charité-Universitätsmedizin Berlin, Campus Virchow-Klinikum, Berlin, Germany1Interdisziplinäres Stoffwechsel-Centrum and 2Med. Klinik m. S. Hepatologie und Gastroenterologie, Charité-Universitätsmedizin Berlin, Campus Virchow-Klinikum, Berlin, Germany
Reprint requests and correspondence: Ursula Plöckinger, M.D., Interdisziplinäres Stoffwechsel-Centrum: Endokrinologie, Diabetes und Stoffwechsel, Med. Klinik m. S. Hepatologie und Gastroenterologie, Charité-Universitätsmedizin Berlin, Augustenburger Platz 1, 13353 Berlin, Germany.
(Am J Gastroenterol 2007;102:2724–2731)

Abstract
OBJECTIVES:  In vitro and in vivo data indicate multiple, but contradictory effects of interferon on pituitary hormone secretion. We therefore investigated prospectively basal and stimulated pituitary hormone secretion in 21 patients with chronic hepatitis C virus (HCV) infection before and during antiviral therapy.

METHODS:  Twenty-one patients received pegylated interferon-α plus either ribavirin or levovirin. Baseline and stimulated growth hormone (GH), cortisol, luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), prolactin (PRL), and thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH) responses were measured using standard pituitary function tests, before therapy in all and during therapy in 17 out of the 21 patients.

RESULTS:  Before therapy 17 patients (81%) had severe GH insufficiency and 9 of these had low insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) concentrations. Basal and stimulated GH concentrations increased significantly during therapy, reducing the number of patients with severe GH insufficiency to four, but IGF-1 remained low. Basal PRL and TSH concentrations were normal before and during therapy, while thyroid-releasing hormone (TRH)-stimulated concentrations increased significantly during therapy. The adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH)/cortisol axis, basal and stimulated gonadotropin, and testosterone concentrations were normal throughout. Neither the HCV RNA level nor transaminases correlated with hormone concentrations before or during therapy.

CONCLUSIONS:  GH insufficiency is common in patients with chronic HCV infection. While GH secretion improves during antiviral therapy, IGF-1 remains low, indicating persistent GH resistance of hepatocytes. Whether improvement in GH secretion during treatment is due to a direct drug effect or related to the suppression of viral load could not be differentiated, as most patients demonstrated a positive virologic response.

[reddawg]

http://labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/igf1/glance.html

Here is a link to this test. As you said, "you don't know if this hormone hurts or helps hepatitis." Seems like a very big question to me. I understand that this hormone will help growth,  but where is there evidence that it also stops hepatitis cells from growing or even a liver tumor.
Be careful what you throwout to the community.  

[machineman1989]

Iv'e read that HGH is not the best for your liver, not to sound negative like NYgirl (I think she is a rep for a drug company)
I've been on MT among others for a while& pretty much will to give something new a look at.
What have You heard about the effects on the liver.

[merryBe]

HGH is a drug like any drug it has risks.Take too much and you can grow too many cells or even cause your bones and joints to grow.

However....when you are in teen/20 your level is 400 IGF...because you are growing.
in your 50's and 60's your IGF should be at 150-200  because you are just an adult repairing tissue each night, not growing taller etc.
so the goal is to return that number to 150 at least (mine was at 40) and I felt like I was 80-90....the doc said...because technically you are, since your body stopped almost all repair you were as old and tired inside as a 90 year old...things were shutting down.

However, HGH is the actual amino acids your body naturally produces each night to tell your body to repair.

ALL I am suggesting to anyone is that if their HGH level is extremely LOW that bringing it UP to NORMAL blood levels for their age (and many with HCV have very low levels) may help them to repair tissue and keep their blood from tanking.

obviously any drug abused can lead to liver damage. Steroids is well known for that....and HGH as well, at HIGHER than normal levels has shown ability to promote liver cancer cells in vivo.However many things are involved in turning macrophages off and on, I have read some studies but it is not definitive
HOWEVER, we are talking about high concentrations. Some atheletes are taking 10 times more than the normal levels of this and other hormones and anabolics. 10 times more of anything will cause serious health issues.

However, a return to normal level of HGH will allow your marrow t produce new liver cells and regenerate your liver, and also keep your blood from tanking,,,,my counts have remained good, they have only gone down a little in 5 months tx...which surprised the doc somewhat as I am at high doses of tx. 180/1200 INF/RIBA.

Another benefit has been the the type diebetes (diabetes) I had was due to pituitary deficiency.....
many folks are incorrectly put on insulin (with its own problems like BIG TIME...when what they really needed was for their Pituitary to tell the pancreas what to do. there was nothing wrong with my pancreas, it wasn't being told what to do is all....Which the HGH helps kick the pituitary into making more of all its hormones.

so now, my diebetes (diabetes) is fine, and my thyroid is working better than it has in years.
we have adjusted to half that med and may have to lower it again. (the pituitary tell the thyroid to work also),

so again, this is about returning a master gland to normal levels of production, helping create the body's normal state of healthy repair and secretions.
This may be the future of a lot of therapies....
like I said there are many studies for "regenerative" diseases such a MS etc...any place where the body needs to repair and/or regenerate I predict HGH will become part of medicines future arsenal to make that happen.

[reddawg]

I'm going to ask my hepatologist about this. Not that I believe it works, but for the unanswered and unknown effects.
You don't know if it helps or hurts the liver due to HepC? It caused you to be borderline diabetic, so what if someone is already insulin dependent Diabetic?
I do not believe that your Insurance Company will pay for a unapproved FDA medicine. If it does, tell me the name of your Insurance Co. and I will get it.
I have Cirrhosis, HepC, Chronic Pancreatitis, Portal Hypertension, Splenogaly, Inflammatory and Toxic Neuropathy, Peripheral Vascular Disease, Enlarged heart. Do
you believe that I would benefit from this Steroid?

"the agent orange thing is pretty well known now...though whe they;ll really acknowledge or pay people whi knows.
they are paying downwinders 50 grand now....a drop in the medical bucket, I'll consider applying when feeling better."
What are "downwinders" that are getting 50 grand and from whom?
You told us and gave facts that you attribute to JAMA. Any chance of a link?
Also I have an idea not not sure of what you are merely cut and pasted or you are writing.
It's not that I don't think you are sincere, but I am the type not to just believe what I read on the internet.
Thank you and I would like a response please.

May I ask your credentials?  

[reddawg]

I see that you deleted my not so favorable response. Don't like the tough questions?

[merryBe]

I never deleted your post. You have a snarly post above the short one...is that the one you mean or was there an even meaner one?
If someone did report you, it wasn't me,, tough questions don't scare me.
It is friday 8:30 and I am just now seeing this.

as to your post, it’s there, you have way too many things wrong physically as this point  to get approved or have a doc risk you, because yes there are risks. With several organs already in failure, no way could I see an endocrinologist trying this on you.
Although it is NOT because a therapeutic dose is harmful, to someone not too far gone it is indeed helpful...BUT I am sorry this won't work for you...because there are too many risk factors for you. That doesn't rule it out as helpful to others however. Are you angry because you know it can't work for you, or because it will work for others but not for yu? I'm not clear on why you seem so agitated.

The diabetes risk was pointed out to me, in fact I knew having researched it long before volunteering for the Merck trials.... and I was monitored closely throughout...weekly...and then daily.. I choose to make alterations to my diet, knowing that both interferon AND HGH each have the potential of raising blood sugars.
Because I eliminated all sugar, and eat complete carbs only, my sugars have gone down not up, even in spite of being on both therapies.
In other words, now instead of going on insulin......which they were considering for me, I am on HGH which has changed back to normal the way I metabolize the sugar. That is what returning IGF-1 levels to normal does, it helps your cells to absorb calories, not to leave all the food (sugar) in the blod stream but to get it into the cell.
IGF-1 (insulin growth factor-1) seems to be the crucial hormone to cause this process to happen and is ONLY made if the pituitary tells the pancreas to make it, by secreting the command protein HGH.  Since you have pancreatitis there may be some benefit to an increased signal from that standpoint, BUT

[merryBe]

continued:

you have Chronic Pancreatitis, Portal Hypertension, Splenogaly, Inflammatory and Toxic Neuropathy, Peripheral Vascular Disease, Enlarged heart all of which are contraindications for growth hormone for myriad other reasons too numerous to list, mainly the advanced hypertension would concern a physician, not because that having a normal level of GH would cause a rupture, but the very presence of anything that might increase metabolism no matter how slightly will cause them to steer away mainly for obvious legal reasons.

In cases where giantism exists, enlarged heart is a result of too much HGH.
But to reinerate, this therapy is helpful to those not making the repair commanding hormone.
I think it is senseless to be accusatory here, or speak of this as a dirty word "steroid".
Your body makes thousands of steroid molecules every day, without which you could not function or indeed even move a muscle or metabolise a single calorie.

as to the nuke exposure....what I said is true...maybe you thought it cavalier that I would be dismissive and in n hurry to collect 50 grand...actually the truth is, since I now have HCV it will be harder to prove the pituitary damage ....the entire medical history is looked at for each application, a lengthy process...and my early symptoms went undocumented (as with most 20 year olds, one sees a doctor seldom)...so now with HCV, I could probably never prove which came first, or caused which.

feel free to google nevada test site, and downwinders and do your own research here,
the government site has the applications, shows the maps....
I could go back and try to find the JAMA or New England Journal I read stuff in for you, online, but since the internet, I threw out the old stacks I possessed (as have most not prone to endless stacks)......there are far more recent studies on all these things anyway now. Try Pubmed for the basics, you have to subscribe to NEJ, JAMA, etc now.

Normally, I would pull up all KINDS of these several links for you as I have for most everyone, and spent hours helping individual ones......
, but quite frankly, I don't care for your tone, and I don't have to reddawg....try some honey next time!
You started out accusatory, and have all but called me a liar....so do your own research, or choose not to even look, instead just point and shoot!   so since you use that tone, let's just say, go to pubmed, read what has been discovered for yourself.  

Even though I strongly disagree with any use of hormones except where medically indicted, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why some are trying to get this hormone illegally, there is still a very good, and often a life saving use of various hormones. Calling them "steroids" as if they are medically evil is like calling food evil just because some stuff themselves with it.  I have two friends right now being kept alive by certain steroids, who would otherwise have expired long ago.
Villianizing a substance or someone who promotes it should be saved for the well educated....so what are your credentials if you don't mind??

[merryBe]

continued:
my credentials.....20 years working in conjuction with doctors, mostly orthopedic and brain surgeons in the role of patient rehab....on lots of accident and stroke victims...the last 15 years of which was MD's only in both the field of physical therapy, rehab, hospice care, and also in teaching anatomy/massage/muscle reprogramming at a local college.....so no, I am not an MD, but there are some things I picked up on and still retain, one of which is, that people who know little on a topic often are the most accusatory lot. Why this is I leave t the readers.

not that it's your business, but I have Blue cross insurance, a working class policy, Regence, so go get it!!!  They haven't denied me much and when they do, I get on the phone and advocate for myself, and get reversals, thank God, one perk of having been exposed to sick people for years is you learn a bit about how the body works and how to influence other professionals.  (Even if you have not that experience, you may get results with whatever insurance you have in better care if you try one thing...a little kindness....humans like that sort of thing..)  

although for you, this HGH therapy will not work, for above reasons, and because they will also MRI and check your brain.... for tumors and such....before beginning tx.  What they will find there (were the scans more perceptive) is grey matter with little manners and even less patience. AND WHY do I say this:  

cyberspace is not done in real time....I am not "your buddy" waiting for your next text message" I am an older adult....with a family/job/and liver still sore from being cauterized all across the bottom.....
news flash dude....not everyone spends their life on this forum waiting for someone like yourslef to ask questions in hostile mode....oh gee...we just sit waiting all day for nastygrams don't ya know.....rolleyes.

I am gone from this forum, sometimes for days at a time.......because in spite of being sick a lot I still do physical volunteer work, and only then volunteer to help others in here....
Many in here have very busy lives, as nurses, doctors, lawyers, microbiologists, etc.
You'd be very surprised if you knew the caliber of people who come in here.
So.
next time, you may want to write to someone privately (in which case they will get an email alert (albeit sometimes up to 5 days late I've noticed, but its been better lately)
in which case I for one try to answer people asap if I see a private letter alerting me to something.....so that way no one need feel ignored or have tantrums.  Try that next time
and with others.  

You posted that question yesterday afternoon and within 12 hrs went haywire.... and  got Po'd that I didn't see it in that one day????

So please, change your tone a smige or come to think of it, since you brought it up...I could report you. It's tempting.
maryB

[merryBe]

I was not joking when I said they will MRI your brain, it is standard procedure before going on HGH to rule out pituitary tumors and check the general health or atrophy as the case may be of the gland and surrounding regions.....say cheese!!!!!!!!

[reddawg]

OK, I will try not to hurt your feelings. I'm just asking questions...fair?
First, Let's correct some of what you say I did. I believe your mistaken when you said I mentioned something about the Brain? I never said anyone reported me. There would be no reason too. You want to report me, for what, not having blind faith in you? It's not personal, I give no one blind faith, especially on the INTERNET. The reference to my post (above the little one) contains nothing that should be construed as "surly."  
The post you deleted contained in part, where I said, "You remind me of the days when carpet baggers would sell snake oil." Also, reminded you how "Cod's Little Liver pills were forced to change their name to Cod's Little Pills, because the pills did nothing for the liver." I was wrong to compare you this way...sorry.
You did say did you not, that "you do not know if it causes HepC to intensify?" Isn't this one reason to be concerned? Also, it's not known if it causes cancer?
So exactly how does this GH help the liver? This is why drugs are tested for years.
You say,"GH is almost impossible to measure." Then go on to say, "but it's easy to measure IGF-1." Since IGF-1 is a TEST, I assume you meant that GH is easily tested with IGF-1? Just one of many contradictions in you voluminous writings.
Your telling people that your Thyroid wasn't working for thirty years. Then the GH made you "slightly" diabetic. What do you mean?  Was it Hyper or hypo before you started treatment? There are proven drugs to cure this easily. Was you condition something unusual?
I haven't had a cold or flu in years, because at first sign I take liquid Echinacea. What do you think of Milk Thistle? You give credit to GH, which is fine, but why take the risk?
I don't want to beat a dead horse, so I'll leave it at this.

[merryBe]

>>>>>>>OK, I will try not to hurt your feelings. I'm just asking questions...fair?

fair

>>>>>>>First, Let's correct some of what you say I did. I believe your mistaken when you said I mentioned something about the Brain? I never said anyone reported me. There would be no reason too.

You said deleted my mistake…I may have read into it you thought I had reported you, as no other way could a post be deleted..I don’t have the “power”


>>>>>You want to report me, for what, not having blind faith in you?

OH please…I’d only report someone who was blatantly in attack defame mode…this board is really very civil, and a refreshing change from many forums, and folks work to keep it that way…

>>>>>It's not personal, I give no one blind faith, especially on the INTERNET. The reference to my post (above the little one) contains nothing that should be construed as "surly."

Good, nor should you give blind faith, but if you are smart enough to ask, then you are smart enough to google and check things out before being suspicious.
Like yesterday, someone put up hyperbarics as a treatment…and to give the devil their due I went back and revisited the research to see if anything new could refute my conclusions of 3 or 4 years ago when I was desparately seeking any relief…and not one centila convinced me anything had changed. People still pay hundreds of dollars for a couple quarts of pure oxygen….B. F. D.  sorry..but you know what I mean.  Whereas, If you go hunting for HGH and/or in conjunction with HCV you’ll find plenty to get excited about!
  
>>>>>>>>The post you deleted contained in part, where I said, "You remind me of the days when carpet baggers would sell snake oil." Also, reminded you how "Cod's Little Liver pills were forced to change their name to Cod's Little Pills, because the pills did nothing for the liver."

the board has been problematic all day....in posting and editing...
I lost a 2 pager t0 a gal and had t redo…am now in Word,,and will cut and paste it over…only way to ensure you can retry if a post gets lost in cyberspace.
you might want to ASK If someone deleted a post...instead of accusing them next time.
I don't even know HOW to delete someones posts (other than I guess you can report offensive people and the moderator will decide to delete it.

>>>>>>>>>>>>I was wrong to compare you this way...sorry.

thanks for the apology, there is a b-load of research out on this stuff now...and sides effectswe see all too well. both in abusers, and in dwarfism where they have been overmedicated mean we all need to question things AND do do our homework,.
My point in posting a primer…albeit volumous to be sure, was to get folks interested in finding out if their brain might be effected, as both HCV and whiplash do effect this gland….AND THIS, if I am any example has more to do with brian fog than the HCV.
I say this because my mental accuitity took a giant leap back to normal in the first couple of months and by the time I fund out I had HCV I could once again read and study, before that I could no longer retain anything…and had begun to suspect Alzheimer’s.
And this may just enhance their ability to heal as it has been well researched that Growth Hormone IS the healing/repairing signaler. While brain fog is also related to ammonia…the signal chemicals themselves are mede when the nerves are told to repair so again, cognitive function increases.

[merryBe]

>>>>>>>>>You did say did you not, that "you do not know if it causes HepC to intensify?" Isn't this one reason to be concerned? Also, it's not known if it causes cancer?

Absolutely, that’s why I said it, because looking at all the benefits and possible risks is important. No one should  not look into claims or concerns and find out if they hold water!!
since the HGH is the actual signal for cells to divide and replicate there will always be concerns. Could it cause cancer...no absolute proof I could find.
reason as follows, normally, you make HGH in minute amounts a few times a day and once a night quite a little squirt....lasts only a few seconds....its enough to tell the cells, stop eating/stop sleeping time to divide and conquer. So that's it basically.
When you take the shot at bedtime, or early Am and go back to sleep...you are giving yourself just the same little squirt a normal 50 year old would (if their gland worked).
Ergo you get cell division, and old cells carted away. Marrow at this time produced more white cells etc, upon recognition of the presence of HGH...also, liver stem cells in the marrow reproduce then, and are sent into the blood stream as well...meaning new liver cells, and new blood. Sounds good so far.

So as to cancer: have been a couple of studies, recently that suggested that hepatic cancer cells grew better in the presence of an increased IGF-1 level.
Here is my problem with that study:
1. there are 20 years of records of HGH used on kids not growing and pituitary people with no proven cancer increase except for this one in vivo study.
2. every cell grows better when IGF-1 is returned to normal so no surprise cancer cells would as well.
3. in the petre dish, there is no OFF switch...whereas....assuming normal levels of IGF-1 yes there will be more cell division but there will also be more of all the myriad blood lymphatic components that recognize and dispose of mutant cells.
(it follows with no inhibitors what you see in a dish minus all those inhibitors will not ever match human response, remember our immune system removes literally thousands of cancer cells everyday we are alive.

>>>>>>>>>>>So exactly how does this GH help the liver? This is why drugs are tested for years.
Same way it helps every cell….it tells a cell…you are old, die now, and tells another cell, you are young, divide now, and replace and stand in the gap where that old cell is now dying. I think I’ve explained this enough, but if you need the microbiology I would suggest asking HR. I stopped teaching anatomy in the 80’s and my recall of cellular division just ain’t what it used to be. Sorry.

>>>>>>>>>You say,"GH is almost impossible to measure." Then go on to say, "but it's easy to measure IGF-1." Since IGF-1 is a TEST, I assume you meant that GH is easily tested with IGF-1? Just one of many contradictions in you voluminous writings.


Again, HGH hard to measure, and expensive but doable AFTER a patient has a proven low  IGF-1…..some docs will take and IGF for months before doing the expensive 2-4K tests.  My IGF was 40-45 six times running….then they did the 4K test. Insurance paid.
Obviously they want to be sure you are REALLY sick before they approve testing…and of course the expensive tx that follows (1200 a month here).

IGF-1 is easy to measure, it is a mere reflection of how well the body produced HGH and repaired itself in the prior 24 hrs.  It is not the definitive test.
there are 2 expensive but definitive tests, one call an argenine uptake, I did not have this test so cannot elaborate on it.
One, the one I had, is an insulin/blood sugar uptakes test where the brains pituitary output under stress (called stemming) is measured.
This test is somewhat dangerous for diabetics, but severe diabetics already on insulin would not be considered for HGH therapy instead of insulin therapy anyway……
I was still considered borderline enough to try this alternative.

This test  but most accurate as it proves that even when in dire need of cell repair (being brought down to 40 or below blood sugar) that the brain, about to go comatose still does not signal the body to start it’s needful tissue repair cycles.
When the brain is put under low sugar stress it signals many organs to act differently…
The stemming, or tiny outputs of the pituitary under stress are then measured n a scale of 1-10.  Ten being the best response, 1 being your brain ain’t workin’.  Mst of my “stems were 1’s or 2’s measured 3 times an hur for 4 hours.  In other words…the function of my master gland was nil….at least when it came to repair commands.  
Why HCV people have lower that average HGH output is still unknown, it could be the virus itself, or some other cellular signal making the gland think it’s time t close up shop…stop repairing and die….whatever triggers it, we do know as we age we have less and less…and the healthy vital older people have higher levels, while the little Progeria children, with no HGH age 80 years in only 10 years time.

Trying an analogy here, say you are 60, and can’t get it up, and the doc says, I have here the hormone that will make you perform and feel the way you did at 40….now I can’t return you to how you were at 20…but I can get you to healthy function robust male function….with the same hormone your body made then, but doesn’t make anymore.
Most guys would jump at that.

Now, imagine we are talking about every organ..your heart your lungs you name it.
Starting to see??

[merryBe]

I told my doctor how I felt before treatment and she poopooed the whole notion my gland might have quit!!  My 3 biggest symptoms….tired to the point I never thought I would wake up in the morning…waking up more tired still…wondering if I would make it to where I was driving.  You would think physicians would be wanting to catch this condition in folks with 20 to 40 productive years left!!!!

>>>>>>>>>>Your telling people that your Thyroid wasn't working for thirty years. Then the GH made you "slightly" diabetic. What do you mean?  Was it Hyper or hypo before you started treatment? There are proven drugs to cure this easily. Was you condition something unusual?

my thyroid was hypo, nothing unusual. The unusual thing is, while on INF it was said thyroid function might go down, mine has gone up, meaning it is working better.
It might be that I never had true thyroid disease to begin with...it might be my pituitary is just now sending good signal to the thyroid again because of HGH presense...this seems to sort of loop into better hormones production overall the next day....so better signaling to thyroid, adrenals, pancrease etc. that's the whole beauty of it. Repaired cells act differently....they produce amounts of their hrmones differently.

Listen if there was not something to this do you think several companies would be working on an oral form right now?  Or do you think all the clinical trials being dne now would be??  

>>>>>>>>>>>I haven't had a cold or flu in years, because at first sign I take liquid Echinacea. na

I have that and Vitamin C and zinc here, if the zinc doesn’t knock it back in the first day, then I go to C and Echinacea as well…but it is pyrethrum, a poison, so it isn’t my fist line of defense. Think flea dip….remember what that smells like…well it may be from a flower but it is still a toxic poison….so to be used cautiously in my opinion.
And now that I have liver disease,,,,,I personally would be reluctant to reach for it.

Milk thistle is a different story…I have read good bad and inconclusive stuff…it seems to have gotten a lot of press for a while, but the question is I’m not sold until one also looks at not just what a substance does to fibrosis and how thoroughly the study are, but also what it does to iron loads and protein metabolism.
When I used thistle for years long ago, iron was not an issue, but now that it is, I’m going to hunt for research concerning that.
If you beat me to it fill me in…..call me silly but I don’t relish having to get bloodlettings….so I’ve given up red meat except for 2 oz servings once a week.
Thistle was once a purportedly great source of iron….don’t know if milk thistle fits that bill….  





>>>>>>>>What do you think of Milk Thistle? You give credit to GH, which is fine, but why take the risk?
I don't want to beat a dead horse, so I'll leave it at this.

Milk thistle is a different story…I have read good bad and inconclusive stuff…it seems to have gotten a lot of press for a while, but the question is I’m not sold until one also looks at not just what a substance does to fibrosis and how thoroughly the study are, but also what it does to iron loads and protein metabolism.
When I used thistle for years long ago, iron was not an issue, but now that it is, I’m going to hunt for research concerning that.
If you beat me to it fill me in…..call me silly but I don’t relish having to get bloodlettings….so I’ve given up red meat except for 2 oz servings once a week.
Thistle was once a purportedly great source of iron….don’t know if milk thistle fits that bill….  
Sorry to be ignorant here, I just spent the day trying to answer you, volunteer, study up on NAC…which for me may not work as sulpher effects me……can’t expect me to know everything..

>>>>>>>>>You give credit to GH, which is fine, but why take the risk?
You know what it is to be very sick….if you did the research, and discovered you were making 20% of whats normal for your age….would you not take it if you could?
Given you feel like each day you are literally stewing in your own juices? Our bodies know, they tell us most of the time when we are dying…so the benefit, given a few days in pubmed, far outweighed the risks, again, at therapeutic not exaggerated levels.

You asked a lot of good questions, thanks for making nice…
As to the dead horse, feeling rode hard and out away wet….but hopefully resolved a few things.
Always appreciate a good gallop.
maryB

ps. I am truly sorry you are so sick. It's the most frustrating thing in the world also to hear that there are new drugs now or on the horizon the we cannt have for whatever reason. Especially the news that europe is suddeeding where we fail, and that the drugs they have in use are still hung in trials here...awaiting who will get that all important nod.
(and their start gate will open first netting billions.)Or to read a while back how badly vertex botched one f their double blinds...and the results won't count...setting back drug approval a couple years because a couple of yo yo's forgot protocols...
it's all very frustrating...  I can see how this thread could be hopeful and very frustrating also, but there are a couple people who are going to check their IGF levels and start the process.
I feel good about that, because in the past I've alerted folks to the fact they had thyroid disease, or Cushing's or something, and later seen them get well.
there's even one woman with children now because I diagnosed her rare form of thyroid disease, which her doctors had all missed. After the right rare tests I told her about they deteted and treated her.... she was able to finally conceive and bear fruit. So even if all this blather only helps a few, I'll be satisfied..

[sfbaygirl]

Wow....quite a thread. Thanks for posting the Hep C post. I was so psyched to get my IGF-1 tested and went to the rhemy. He said he follows all this stuff and it has been tested enough. I told him that the IGF_1 test was a cheap one. And he asked, " And then what?" There isn't enough data to even get basic data. I told him hey Alinia is off label and now many Dr's are prescribing it. He won't do it. I will have to try another avenue. Perhaps my Hepatologist. Dunno. All I know is I  have Fibromyalgia....I think due to tx. This is one of the long term sides from drugs.  After reading this again, I would still love to find a DR. to give me this test. I am sure the IGF-1, but then those EXPENSIVE tests I bet the insurance Co. won't pay for. They won't even pay for the Chandix, to quit smoking. I have to apply for a waiver. Perhaps I need to bring this study to my Hepatologist (whom I got ONLY by complaining about the idiot GI I had)  

"My 3 biggest symptoms….tired to the point I never thought I would wake up in the morning…waking up more tired still…wondering if I would make it to where I was driving.  You would think physicians would be wanting to catch this condition in folks with 20 to 40 productive years left!!!!"

Did you see the study on sleep...so interesting!  

Thanks for your time and energy. I know it is not great on tx. Of course you DO NOT recommend this for people ON tx, right?  

Linda

[reddawg]

Please check out this drug here;

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/drug-information/DR601003

Maybe you can find some Dr. in Mexico, Germany or India that may give it to you. Your Dr. said that it has been tested enough? Does that mean the conclusion is that it's poison for your liver or good?
There is a reason that most drugs aren't good for the liver. I'll just assume you know why.
Have you tried the standard treatment?

[merryBe]

re: sleep, yes, thank for reminding me.

it turns out that HCV can lower your pituitary function, as can other causes.

we covered that,

but it ties in with sleep because normally, you only make HGH in 3rd and 4th stage (REM) sleep.  

In fact, the fact that you have low HGH prevents you from ever getting to REM...
ergo it is a vicious cycle.  

Sleep apnea can also cause this. I had a sleep study to rule it out.
I had some apnea, due to an enlarge tounge (which is caused by both HCV and low pituitary function)
Yet not enough apnea to need a mechine.........however I had vitually no REM, or 4th stage (repairative) sleep.

I told you it would be hard..."and then what" is code for "I don't want to advocate for your treatment even if you have this condition".

the Lilly Humatrope Site has a data bases of doctors who are in your area and do help their diagnosed patients get on this. I'll find the number for you.
(the ones testing are usually pituitary specialists.) Endocrinologists rarely go there is what the researcher at OHSU told me.....too much staff time getting people "passed" through the insurances....but, because of this Lilly staffs it's own team to push through the paper work.

I did go to one endocrinologists who told me he would have no problem keeping me on it if I needed to switch docs....which I was thinking of doing because of the 2 hr drive to the other guy...but he was Stanford educated, that means he knew my numbers proved the deficiency was there and severe.

it all gets down to numbers sometimes is what one NP told me....time spent getting something approved goes up with expense....and that means 20 hrs of phone fax and letter time.....(like the insurances are hoping docs will give up) and.....they do!!!
If it's hard or expensive it is hard to get advocation even if proofs exist of enourmous benefit.

You could do what I did.....get in a fibromyalgia trial...that way your IGF is tested to qualify you for the trial......even if you don't stay in the trial...you'd then have proof.

I think to the "and then what"  I'd just say back...."and then obviously I will go to a pituitary specialist and see if I can be helped".

I am on HGH andon tx....neither my Endocrinologist nor my Hepatologist seemed the least bit bothered or concerned about that fact, and I did make a point of asking.
Like I said....what harm it does to actually get the repair signal each night, would there be, UNLESS one had the conditions REddawg mentioned. Obviously like ANY drug there are contraindications....enlarged heart being tops among them.

that is why, though while on tx I would say if you need it, and have no contraindications then go forward, I would also add the CAUTIONARY that you NOT run off to mexico or somewhere to get this.
there are places that sell it online....this would be foolhardy and dangerous.
A. because you really do need blood work to monitor and get you to a therapeutic not overmedicated level.
B. Because you need blood work and follow ups to see how you are tolerating the hormone.
C. Because the protein itself is very delicate. It breaks down easily if not stored at the right temperature, and is only good for between 10-30 days after being hydrated, which is done upon receipt. Mine is shipped just like INF, overnight and on ice!!
D. Because there are scammers out there getting things from somewhere in china, or repackaging stuff they've already used. example: if I was dishonest, I could finese my cartride into looking full and reglue it....and make a thousand bucks off of some poor desparate soul....but it's worse than that, they are making fully mocked up to look like the real deal stuff....there is a tremendous black market trade here unfortunately right now, due to this being the ONLY steroid out there that cannot be traced. (because it is the actual protein your body makes and it ergo not detectable) ergo it has become the number one legal drug that athelites try to obtain illegally and then abuse.

I get my supply from a direct from Lilly specialty pharmacy call Maccesson Specialty pharmacy. Do NOT try to be on this without going through the hoops.

PS.  You could always go to a lab, on your own, in the morning and get an IFG-1...you want to have been fasting, like with a blood sugar draw.
Or ask your GP to refer you to an endocrinologist at least. Who hopefully won't blow you off. But as I said, I'm not surprised, I got the same brush off from my GP.

[merryBe]

you are correct Alinia should be getting ALL the attention..well A LOT of it.

my liver guy has refused 3 times now to prescribe it though I said I would pay myself and sign a release holding him harmless.
though I gave him the research and explained it.
I do not even think he read the research I gave him.

basically Alinia....it gives type 4's between 8 and 28% better odds.
this really reveals how stubbornly some doc will not listen.

as to good or bad for liver on the HGH....my conclusion= good,
at this point in my mind.
main reasoning:
1. based on overall ability to stimulate healing everywhere and pointedly affect the liver stem cell production (the liver can turn over and regenerate every cell in it in about 1 1/2 years given good cell division and bone marrow output (where new liver stem cells are stored your whole life is in your marrow).
2. based on failure to prove in any in vitro double blind study a greater rate of cancer.

remember, all the hullabaloo about various substances over the years causing cancer have not all proven out. Some things thought to be good are now known not to be:
and vise versa.....thinking of the reversals in tobacoo and estrogen come to mind.

[reddawg]

Your intense commitment to your GH treatment is commendable. Go for it! I hope that you make my suspicions wrong. Please keep us informed. Understanding your passion, asking you to keep us informed was unnecessary :)
I do a lot of research. I have studied the Liver Diseases since 1989 when diagnosed with HepC.
The GH treatment I believe, is too radical of a treatment. Personally, I would not give it the enormous amount time that you have. I made a final decision not to even attempt the treatment years ago. I researched it from the beginning when it was more unlikely to help. Even now, I wouldn't put myself through it, even if it is having better results. It is probably to late anyway.
However, I believe that Interferon/peg/riba is best available treatment for Hepatitis, possibly Cirrhosis. If one can make the source of all their ills better, than the symptoms will reduce. I believe that one has to get to the source of a problem and then the rest of the side effects will heal.

[merryBe]

yes it's a lot of trouble to get on....and it required determination.

mine was driven in part by the fibromyalgia, tenderness everywhere, and the insulin resistance and discovery of HGH's effect on that.(seemed worth a look see, since even insulin injections is not a guarantee one will not loose limbs or eyesight AND because in the process of discovery I also learned all the oral insulins are hard on the liver.....
Plus, finding the HCV, and then confirming that some neuropathy was beginning to occur ment unless some repair started happening I was sunk.

INF RIBA is of course the tx of choice, I would NEVER suggest someone NOT treat, or do this Treatment IN PLACE of SOC.....that wuld be foolish...but as an adjuct not so.

the good news, for most HCV patients time spent on INF/riba, in one study on pubmed shows and increase in IGF levels following treatment. They don't state why that happens, just that it's been observed.  My guess is minus fighting such high levels (VL) more repair beginns to occur, and sleep is improved as well, people very sick with virus don't sleep well.....both of which improve following SOC and hence would lead to returns to more normal levels of IGF and HGH.
THe study didn't say what happens if relaspe occurs, but it's logical levels would go down again as VL approaches its pre-tx levels one would think.

In any case, one question here...do you believe HGH too radical because of the expense/trouble getting approved, (because that certainly is a real issue, especially if you have to go through the VA, or some other rigid insurance)....or is because you are concerned having normal adult levels of the hormone would harm you???

[reddawg]

My concern about HGH is that it is  has not had the proper clinical trials and been  approved by the FDA. I'm concerned that there is a lack of knowledge of whether HGH hastens the HepC virus,
I believe that the way to cure a disease is to attack the disease itself, not the symptoms.
Treating the symptoms is fine if it doesn't hurt the cause.
The IGF levels increase most likely due to the increased health of the liver.
Insulin injection isn't the cause of diabetic person to lose an arm or eyesight. It is the disease.
Peripheral Neuropathy again is a symptom. If one were to get a liver transplant, many of symptoms would most likely go away.  The neuropathy may not be able to regain proper function.

[merryBe]

1..specific clinical trial with HCV not withstanding there are dozen of studies regarding it's efficacy, and quite a few on it's non viral enhancing staus.

.2. , SOC is already inclusive of one symptomatic medicine: INF. they are increasing your own bodies Interferon levels (your symptom being not enough INF to fight the virus on your own).....so hoping that the increase INF will help you fight the disease.  I don't see much difference here, except that the HGH lacks all the nasty side-effects, while boosting blood, immune response and tissue repair. As an adjust if you don't repair normally, this is real regenerative medicine, not symptomatic for that reason.

Berg and others have studied HGH for viral replication...so far, all good news, HGH doesn't grow virus. a few examples: like I said, there are hundred of studies on HGH:

http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/ma?f=102262568.html   viral replication

http://aac.asm.org/cgi/content/full/48/6/2337?ck=nck  drug interaction w/antivirals

http://www.aidsmap.com/cms1032234.asp reducing viral load in AIDS patients

3. >>>>>>>>>The IGF levels increase most likely due to the increased health of the liver

No, that is not why IGF increases. It has more to do with overall viral response before during and after a virus. The body tends to shut down it's synthesis during a viral attack....hence it becomes hard to eat, one has nausea or lack of appetite. As you kill the virus, assuming a normally functional pituitary then IGF-1 levels would go up again as nourishment is once again being taken in by the cells.
How much IGF-1 increases has to do with pituitary, AND pancreatic, AND liver health, not to mention what type of diebetes (diabetes) we are talking about. It also involve all the autoimmune responses as to how quickly IGF-1 is used up in the body.

4.peripheral Neuropathy happens when too high levels of sugars begin to degrade nerve endings and the myelin sheath. Return blood sugar to normal and you can stop progression....regenerative signal is another matter...that is why they are in Phase II and phase III trials with MS and HGH right now, because we now know nerve regeneration occurs, but only in specific circumstances. With HGH you have the potential to make more tissues stored in your marrow for just those purposes. However the trigger,,,,to get stem cells out of your marrow and to where they need to be, be that new liver cells, new nerve cells, etc....is based on the marrow getting the signal, again, FROM HGH that there are areas in need of stem cellls for repair.

when you stop to think about this is seems the purest logic....we've discovered there are tons of stem cells in our own skin....right now they can grow our skin, and our bladders from these cells....it will be years before they can grow a whole new organ as complex as the liver in a jar, ready for transplant, but there should be little need if we can just turn on the signal that tells the body to do that.

Normally, liver damage occurs all the time, just from digestion...that's why the average healthy liver replaces itself entirely every one and one half years.
Unless you are deficient, as I was, in which case my liver probably had not turned over every cells for 5 or 7 years easily....meaning a lot of old tired cells were trying to soldier on.
Turning the HGH up to normal levels means my liver tissue will replace itself in that 1 1/2 years as do most people. Hopefully, in a lower viron enviorment this will mean a less fibrotic tissue level....perhaps it is not JUST the SOC turning back people from stage 3 to stage 1....perhaps it is the opportunity to fight off the virus, that also stimulates many HCV patients to see a rise in their IFG-1 (and therefore their HGH levels) during the course of SOC tx.

In any case, I still can't buy into the cancer scare, because ever cell division is a potential for cancer....every morsel can nourish a good or an aberant cell....we don't all stop eating because fod may feed cancer...we don't pray our cells don't divide and replace themselves.....why then should we fear a protein that has been proven to heal and repair?  The only reason I can think of that would be a concern, apart from the obvious, enlarged heart, etc....some contraindicators that rule out HGH rule out almost every other drug as well...so no surprise....but the one thing that would concern me is if the immune system was already completely shot. As in, if someone had been radiated for a bone marrow transplant. Then putting HGH into a non-existant immune system envirionment would mean the body could not tell, and rid itself of mutant or misshapen cells. In that case, HGH would pose a threat, obviously. So would coming into contact with germ laden humans though....so keep in perspective that we are not taking about the exceptions, or overruling good medical practice, just the practical use of a hormone if you do not make enough of it....or as much as people your age should be making....that's all.

[Ginger12521]

Merry B, thanks so much for your input on this very important topic.

We've had many discussions on my Alternative Med Group in regards to the effects of chronic HCV on the immune and endocrine system. I believe addressing the symptoms caused by an endocrine imbalance is a huge part of treating and overcoming HCV symptoms.  Keeping this in check may also help relieve symptoms such as the bouts of fatigue during an active HCV infection, or perhaps after completing treatment.

I remember someone mentioned Adrenal dysfunction in another post. Adrenal fatique may play a huge role in the fatigue we may experience with HCV in my humble opinion. :)

Here's a great site with lots of info on hormones, adrenal dysfunction, and how to treat this issue with food, diet, and supplements. Check out his thoughts on anti-aging too. :)

http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_format/adrenal_fatigue.cfm

[reddawg]

I found this  interesting site which has listed studies on GH. Very interesting, but I could get little infor due to non membership. Indivdual member 39.99 plust cost of document I believe.
If you have contact with a medical research or similar you can get these abstracts and entire titles. Even individuals.
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/

[sfbaygirl]

Interesting stuff. I would love to just find out my IGF-1 levels. This was my Rhemy that refused. Sounds the same as Reddawg's arguments. But geez, I would sure love to find out why I nave Fibromyalgia and how I can get rid of it. I would love to find out why I am so dam tired all the time. This is NOT just Hep C. I know it. I am sure some of it is, but why not test the HGH?   I am frustrated and am hating going to more dr's after relapsing after 47 weeks of tx and having post tx sides that I never had prior to tx.

Linda

[DoubleDose]

I persuaded my GP to run preliminary tests, and just got the IGF-1 tests back.  I am right at 90, which by all norms that I can find, is pretty darn low on the scale for someone in their fifties.  My next appointment is now with my Endocrinologist in two months.  We will see what he has to say.  He is always very conservative, but is extremely knowledgable and has a national reputation, with three books and tons of research articles.

I am going to press to the maximum to see if this is a major factor in my post-tx symptoms (which ALL meet the low HGH / pituitary insufficiency profile), and to have follow up testing done to determine exactly what my pituitary is doing.  I would lean toward HGH replacement therapy if there is any evidence of any kind of deficiency, and I think the signs are already there.  The low IGF-1, coupled with my mild hypothyroidism (another sign according to the articles, of pituitary issues), and all of my similar physical symptoms.

This is very intriguing, but I think it will take lots of perserveance to get the doctors on board.  This is a new concept (HCV / tx and pituitary insufficiency) and I think most doctors will be very skeptical at first.   I think my IGF-1 result speaks for itself.  I am at the very bottom of the range on the lab test.  Not 'out of range' mind you, but at the lower limit.  

The articles I have been reading on-line recommend doing HGH replacement until one is at the median, or even at the first standard deviation ABOVE the median for their age range.   It will be interesting to see if my Endocrinologist pursues this logic, or if he tries to make a case that I am still in a 'normal' range....even though I have all the signs and symptoms...and am at the bare minimum of the range!

Let me know if any of you also pursue this issue with your doctors. Or if any of you have already gone through testing or treatment.  The IGF-1 was an easy and inexpensive blood test, and my GP also ordered a bunch of other tests to cover the fatigue spectrum....cortisol, CRP, ANA, and other esoteric tests.  Surprisingly, all were pretty mid-range normal, and even my ANA, which used to be elevated, was low normal!!!  Only the IGF-1 seems suspect.  And I think I may be  zeroing in on the real problem.  Now, to see if we can get some treatment, and consensus on the whole issue.

  

[merryBe]

http://www.humatrope.com/common_pages/reimbursement.jsp?reqNavId=2.2.5

lilly at the above site will help your doctor advocate for you.

He sends your tests to them, THEY have their own medical staff talk to your insurance...
it worked like butter for me!!!

so you got the test...excellent!!  Yes you are half of normal...(and that's onINF...chances are you were lower still before tx....somehow the time on INF improves the IGF-1 somewhat...so you probably felt more tired before treatment??

anyway...normal would be 150-190....so you need double....or are getting half as much as most 50 year olds.

glad to see you following up.  Call Lilly...ask them which doc in your area are precribing...they'll know.

[returntosender]

Like DD, you got me thinking about all my sides and how they might be related to the pituitary and what do you know - my IGF-1 test came back at 80, certainly less than where it should be for someone in their fifties.  I too am going to endo to follow up on this.  Thanks for the insight.   I will keep you advised.  

[Severance]

I'm in N.Z , so who knows how easy or tricky the test getting will be in this subsidised wonderland. I'm curious enough to give it a shot and will let you know the outcome if any.
I'd like to ask you about your dream state? I've had two dreams that I recall in almost 4 years (both very short, one simply a chrome toaster popping toast).
I had assumed that I was dreaming, "coz everyone does" and perhaps just being so fatigued that I wasn't recalling having them.
You said that your quality of sleep had improved, have you also returned to dreaming?
May seem a silly point to pick out from your wealth of info, but dreaming and sanity/mental balance go hand in hand. I say: I must be dreaming, surely.
And yet the words don't ring true in my own ears.
Thanks in advance.
Sev

[sfbaygirl]

Yes, it is intriguing. I need to MAKE myself go to my GP to see if he will give me this test. I think he will and send me to an endro.  But I do believe my Rhemy that it is not FDA approved and we will have problems getting tx for it, if needed. I sure would love to get out of this state of Fibromyagia and fatigue (my biggest complaints),  but knowing my insurance I will have to go through the big hoops to get tx for this, if needed. It took over a year to get a new Dr. who knew what the hell he was doing. I did it, but man was it a work out.  With my energy these days, I am happy I am finally making it to school!  

Yep, I am frustrated. I don't even want to make an appt. with the PCP, I am so sick of Dr's. I suppose I sound resigned to my fate...I really don't want to be, but dammit, I am so tired!  Some days it is all I can do to get dressed, still!  I am not depressed. Okay, with a little help from my friends, maybe I can do it. Fight again!

Linda

[DoubleDose]

Even worst case scenario, where you determine there really is a deficiency, and your doctor agrees to treat, but your insurance refuses to cover the expense...I will pay it gladly out of pocket.... $800 to $1,000/ month is like a large (ok, very large) car payment, and could, if the treatment works, make all the difference in the world.  If I could feel alert, and fully healthy and motivated again, I would pay it myself in a heartbeat.  Eventually the price will come down, and maybe eventually insurance would be more or less forced to cover the treatment...especially if it makes a substantial, and medically documented difference in health and symptoms.  Doctors can twist insurance companies 'arms' pretty well when they have lab results, and proof of effectiveness.  

This is about the last variable that I have been able to isolate that could potentially be the cause of my ongoing post-tx symptoms.  If the HCV is gone, or minimized, controlled at subdetectable levels, and my thyroid is fully corrected, and my ANA now points to 'normal', then I don't know what else could be addressed at this point, other than the pituitary issue.  Either the therapy will help tremendously, or it won't.  If it does not....then the continuing search for answers will go on, and on.  I look at this as a great opportunity.  If it does not work, we won't be paying much for very long.  If it does work, then I will feel that the dollars will be the best spent in my life.   Everything is not always free in life, and this may take a ' little piece of our hides' to make happen.

I am most concerned about getting my 'conservative' endocrinologist to take the issue very seriously, and to make a decision to treat aggressively if the follow up tests warrant it!

Good luck to everyone who is now pursuing this line of investigation.  Let's all keep each other informed of what happens, doctor's opinions, lab results, insurance issues, and reactions to any treatments received.
We need to really determine if we are on to something substantial.

DoubleDose

[merryBe]

again the Humatrope reembursement center is one way  to find endocrinologists already maintaining patients on it. those who specialize in the Pituitary are more likely to give you the benefit of testing and tx.

as a child and young adult I always remembered my dreams,,,,sometimes they went on for what seemed like hours and I could still rattle off the last 5 to 7 dream sequences upon awaking....they were highly detailed dreams.

so when the time came I was too tired to walk across a room upon waking....
and my thyroid had been corrected, and estrogen, and all the normal things that interfere with sleep....well...the sleep study showed no REM,,,,not much 3rd stage sleep either.

Please don;t think this one hormone will cure all ailments...I'm not suggesting that.
Yet the first thing I noticed was a return to restful and REM sleep....it was like day and night.

I remember telling the research nurse, while on the Merck trial....the first week....I told her, I know I'm not on the placebo"  She said, oh how could you know that, there's no way you can possibly know that."  And I replied oh yes I can, I haven't had restful sleep like this in 15 years.   (later, when my records were released to me, the labs showed that I had gone from 40 to 145 IGF in the first week.....and yes, I was sleeping like a baby.

I think the issue with insurance is going to be, how low will they consider as a deficiency. Obviously at 20 percent I had no trouble, but at half normal there may be more resistance...it's hard to say.

If you go through all the channels and get Lilly's help, there's a good chance half of normal may qualify you for therapy.
If not, and for those not able to afford it without insurance, there are some changes in diet and excercise that can aide the body in it's own production if the gland is not damaged.....such as a diebetic (diabetic) diet to lower insulin resistance, and a closer look at protein intakes with attention to arginine uptake in particular.

DoubleDose....as soon as there's an oral form, there will be a lot less "conservatism" a lot of the reluctance is brought about by the abuses, but mostly by the cost/insurance hoops....not because there's something wrong with the science.

[reddawg]

Studies relating to countraindications of GH..

      ARTICLES

Growth Hormone Secretagogues Stimulate the Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Adrenal Axis
and Are Diabetogenic in the Zucker Diabetic Fatty Rat1
R. G. Clark, G. B. Thomas, D. L. Mortensen, W. B. Won, Y. H. Ma, E. E.
Tomlinson, K. M. Fairhall and I. C. A. F. Robinson
Department of Endocrinology (R.G.C., D.L.M., W.B.W., Y.H.M, E.E.T.), Genentech
Inc., South San Francisco, California 94080; and Department of Neurophysiology
(G.B.T., K.M.F, I.C.A.F.R.), National Institute for Medical Research, Mill Hill,
London NW7 1AA, United Kingdom
Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Dr. R. G. Clark,
Genentech, Inc., Endocrine Research, 390 Point San Bruno Boulevard, Mail Stop
#37, South San Francisco, California 94080. E-mail: ***@****.
Besides stimulating GH release, some GH secretagogues also release ACTH and
adrenal steroids. Several novel classes of potent GH secretagogues have recently
been described, and we have now tested their ability to release corticosterone
in conscious normal rats. All analogs that released GH also stimulated
corticosterone release to some degree, though the relative effects on GH and
corticosterone varied somewhat. The corticosterone responses for some analogs
were in the range of those obtained with CRF (2 µg, iv), whereas closely related
analogs inactive for GH release failed to release corticosterone. Activation of
the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis with GH release by GHRPs could be a
highly diabetogenic combination in susceptible individuals. Therefore, a potent
GHRP pentapeptide analog (G7039, 100 µg/day, sc, bid) was given to young obese
male Zucker diabetic fatty rats (ZDF, n = 8/group) for 24 days. Other groups
received hGH (500 µg/day, sc, bid), recombinant human insulin-like growth factor
(rhIGF)-1 (750 µg/day, sc, infusion) or excipient, alone or in combination. Both
G7039 and hGH increased weight gain, markedly raised serum glucose (G7039, 542 ±
37; hGH, 725 ± 30; excipient, 330 ± 57 mg/dl) and doubled insulin levels but had
opposite effects on serum triglycerides (G7039, 1412 ± 44; hGH 501 ± 46;
excipient 1058 ± 73 mg/dl) and fat depot weights. In contrast, treatment with
IGF-1, alone or in combination with hGH or G7039, improved the diabetic state
and stimulated growth. Thus, both G7039 and hGH treatment stimulated growth in
ZDF rats, but greatly worsened diabetes, unless IGF-1 was coadministered. Some
of the effects of G7039 could be explained by GH release, but the effects on
blood lipids and body fat were not seen with hGH and may reflect the additional
activation of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis by the secretagogue. The
magnitude of these adverse effects in the ZDF animals suggest that chronic
administration of GHRP analogs with cortisol-releasing activity to obese or
diabetes-prone individuals warrants careful evaluation.

[sfbaygirl]

DD;  Man, do I hear you. I would pay in a heartbeat too. I am just so dam tired!  My Rhemy really ruined my high about all this HGH. but so what if it is not FDA approved? Neither is Alinia, that is what I told him. Not a risk taking guy, I suppose. So I need to go to my PCP. As I said, I am so dammed tired!  I still have the virus, so how do I know what is what?  That is a dilemna for me. I think that simple test sure would be a start!  I have fibromyalgia and would be surprised if the drugs I take for it aren't causing the fatigue, along with the Hep c. Fighting all the time with these Dr's is hard. I fought with my life during tx and I am not giving up, but sort of prioritizing my life into how I can sustain a livelyhood. Doing so means not fighting so much. I hate to admit that, but I need to take back my life. That doesn't mean I am giving up, but I have to give less time to some things, like fighting dr's and ins. co's. I dunno, perhaps I will begin to get that energy up again to fight another day. But today, I just don't have it in me.

Linda

[DoubleDose]

Please note how this subject ties in to the thread posted by Ginger regarding underlying causes of HCV fatigue.  We need more cross talk on this issue, and those who also suspect that there is a strong hormonal component to their HCV/fatigue  issues might want to consider having the IGF-1 test done, just to see if there indeed is a common thread to this problem.  The virus might just incapacitate one or more of our major governing glands, and thus keep us operating in a 'disabled' state, unless corrected.

We already know the Thyroid can be seriously affected  by HCV, and by TX, and several articles, and research studies, also discuss Pituitary dysfunction from active HCV....so, I wonder why there is not more research being done to see if this is the major cause of all the extra-hepatic symptoms we may experience?

Many doctors assume that it is from Liver dysfunction, but as has been pointed out in another thread, there is usually little or NO correlation with fatigue and degree of liver degradation.  Many cirrhotics often feel absolutely normal, and often a Stage 1 HCV infected individual can be just overwhelmed with fatigue, brain fog, and a host of nasty symptoms.  Its certainly not just in their minds, and I really doubt that the liver contributes ANYTHING to the problems in a Stage 1, or even in a Stage 2.  So where is the medical follow up on all of these issues?  Wouldn't it be nice to have some effective treatments for all the HCV fallout?  Treatments that are proven to be effective, and covered by insurance???  We need research studies to get to that point.

DoubleDose

[fretboard]

Wow!  Very good thread, even your condensed version was very good, when the person asked you to put it in one sentence, you patiently took on that assignment.  Good for you, so I can't get through the whole thread without asking my main two questions.

1.  Are you currently in that trial/study?  

2.  Is there any drug or vitamin that is similiar in composition to "Humatrope" and safe that a person like me can take, I'm talking over the counter?  I am HepC positive, geno 1 who hasn't been treated.  I ask because you have definitely done your homework.  Also I believe in "self diagnosis" whole heartedly.  Oh, even if there is something that is a prescription drug that is similiar in nature to "Humatrope", could you please mention it.  Sorry for the messed up question, I should ask if Humatrope currently available through prescription.

Thank you very much for your eye opening post, I wish I would have read it sooner.  I just kept passing it by, because I really didn't think it could apply to me, but hey live and learn and that I did once again on this forum.  It's very possible that you may have already answered these questions.  My back is killing me just sitting on this chair in front of the computer. If you have answered you can just say "it's in there", like that Ragu commercial and I will find it. (free smile)  God Bless

  

[reddawg]

I spend most of my time researching. Usually on Medically sound studies and tested drugs. I did find this:

GH treatment in adults with chronic liver disease: a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, cross-over study.

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GH treatment in adults with chronic liver disease: a randomized, double-blind,
placebo-controlled, cross-over study.
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Key journal articles ranked for newsworthiness and clinical relevance in each
specialty, linked to Medline abstracts.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab.  2002; 87(6):2751-9 (ISSN: 0021-972X)
Wallace JD; Abbott-Johnson WJ; Crawford DH; Barnard R; Potter JM; Cuneo RC
Metabolic Research Unit, Department of Medicine, University of Queensland,
Princess Alexandra Hospital, Wooloongabba, Brisbane 4102, Australia.
***@****
Patients with chronic liver disease (CLD) are catabolic and GH-resistant. The
effects of supraphysiological recombinant human GH (rhGH; 0.2 IU.kg(-1).d(-1))
treatment in adults with CLD were assessed in a randomized, double-blind,
placebo-controlled cross-over trial (4-wk dietary run-in, 4-wk treatment, and
2-wk wash-out phases). Nine adults with mild- to moderate-severity CLD
participated (median age, 49 yr; three males and six females; Child's
classification A in six and B in three). Biopsy-proven etiologies were: alcohol
(four patients), primary biliary cirrhosis (three patients), non-A, non-B, non-C
hepatitis (one patient), and cryptogenic (one patient). Treatment with rhGH
increased serum IGF-I (median increase over placebo, +93 microg.liter(-1); P =
0.004), IGF-binding protein-3 (+0.9 mg.liter(-1): P = 0.004), and acid labile
subunit (+10.7 nM; P = 0.004). Total body potassium (+8.0 g; P = 0.023), body
weight (+1.6 kg; P = 0.008), and total body water (by bioelectrical impedance;
+4.9 kg; P = 0.004) increased. Resting metabolic rate (+313 ml.kg(-1).min(-1); P
= 0.004) and lipid oxidation (+1072.0 kcal.d(-1); P = 0.032) increased.
Metabolic changes included increased fasting plasma glucose (+1.2 mM; P =
0.008), insulin (+33.8 mU.liter(-1); P = 0.004), C-peptide (+0.7 nM; P = 0.004),
and free-fatty acids (+0.1 mEq.liter(-1); P = 0.04). Clinical side effects
included worsening edema and ascites. Hepatocellular function did not change.
Therefore, rhGH treatment in CLD: 1) overcame hepatic GH resistance; 2) may have
improved whole-body protein catabolism; 3) increased lipolysis and lipid
oxidation; 4) increased insulin resistance; and 5) had potent antinatriuretic
effects. Long-term safety and efficacy require further assessment.
Subject Headings
      Major Subject Heading(s)Minor Subject Heading(s)CAS Registry / EC Numbers
        Blood [metabolism]
        Carrier Proteins [blood]
        Chronic Disease
        Cross-Over Studies
        Double-Blind Method
        Female
        Glycoproteins [blood]
        Human Growth Hormone [adverse effects] [therapeutic use]
        Humans
        Insulin-Like Growth Factor Binding Protein 3 [blood]
        Insulin-Like Growth Factor I [metabolism]
        Liver Diseases [blood] [drug therapy]
        Male
        Middle Aged
        Placebos
        Recombinant Proteins [adverse effects] [therapeutic use]
        0  (Carrier Proteins)
        0  (Glycoproteins)
        0  (Insulin-Like Growth Factor Binding Protein 3)
        0  (Placebos)
        0  (Recombinant Proteins)
        0  (insulin-like growth factor binding protein, acid labile subunit)
        12629-01-5  (Human Growth Hormone)
        67763-96-6  (Insulin-Like Growth Factor I)


  PreMedline Identifier: 12050245


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[DoubleDose]

The study really does not demonstrate much that would discourage someone from trying the GH therapy, and indeed lists several positice consequences.  I would think that proper diet might help control increases in glucose and insulin resistance to some extent.

They also did not include many/any HCV infected patients with liver disease.  This might be helpful to proper evaluation of the therapy.  Also, a larger study might help as well.  Did they indicate WHY they were testing the GH therapy on this subset of patients to begin with?  What were they hoping to accomplish with the therapy?

DoubleDose

[reddawg]

I saw some positive results also. I guess that you assumed that I am looking just for the
negative.
You have to go to the referenced sites to get a better idea of what the results mean and the scope of this research. I would have had many pages of information if posted complete scope and  I don't know how just by this post, one could decide one way or another to trying this treatment..
A good diet goes just so far to correct blood/sugar.
HCV is Chronic Liver Disease, as can be hepA,B,C,D,E; Hemachromatosis. et al.    

"Clinical side effects
included worsening edema and ascites. Hepatocellular function did not change.
Therefore, rhGH treatment in CLD: 1) overcame hepatic GH resistance; 2) may have
improved whole-body protein catabolism; 3) increased lipolysis and lipid
oxidation; 4) increased insulin resistance; and 5) had potent antinatriuretic
effects. Long-term safety and efficacy require further assessment."

If the above paragraph from the study give you pause, I don't know what would.
Why not go to the sites and read the abstracts, scope and results, to get a better understanding.

[reddawg]

I didn't see anywhere, whether or not you have tried the standard treatment? They seem to be getting better results than when I was diagnosed in 1989.

[merryBe]

sorry for delayed answers this week....we've had a death in the family.

Sorry if you thought I was suggesting this instead of SOC...I'm NOT.....only suggesting that an as adjunct and aide in the disease recovery process.

I am currently on standard tx....6 months now.  UND as of last week....blood work holding steady, no crashing,  although 1200/180 is taking it's toll.

As I said, your study above, and the ones I found really didn't prove any substantial risk but did have more benefit potentials cheifly in metabolics and rates of repair to damaged tissues.

The insulin resistance is the one draw back, but the same can be said of Interfron which can also cause changes in either direction to insulin metabolism.

Obviously if someone wants to use this therapy for it's benefit, they need to weigh the risks and be willing to alter their life style in ways that will compensate for any adverse effects.  The heart patient cuts out meats and fats...the liver patient alcohol etc.....the HGH therapy required a no sugar/complex carbs only diet stucture to stay on the safe side of the equations.
Otherwise one might be treating one disease only to cause another, which would be foolish.
Also taking more than recommended therapeutic dose is harmful, one doesn't want ones feet, bones, and cartilage to start growing like they did in youth. To take more than a medicinally recommended and monitored amount would do harm, some not reversible.

[Severance]

I have my IGF1 results back.
I'm 36 years old and have tested positive for HepC for 15 years, my own estimate of when I was infected puts it at 21 years.
I came in with an IGF1 of  94.
You posted that at  50-60yrs  150-200 is in normal range, depending on the lab. This lab had a suggested range for me of 199-424.
Seems a bit wide open to me, still the test results are low. It remains to be seen whether they'll see it as low enough to bother treating. There are several other things plaguing me at the moment. My GP has made an appointment for me to discuss all these things with someone more in the know than him, then they'll decide who to send me to and what to do with me.
I'd very much appreciate some advice as to what questions I need to be asking. There are other signs that could point to pituitary malfunction, problems processing lipids, high white blood cell count and seemingly complete immunity breakdown. My appointment won't come through for about 3 weeks, (we've got junior Doctor's strikes at the moment) so no rush on the reply. My health is at a point where I need to push forward, being properly prepared means avoiding repeat appointments and possibly also unnecessary treatments. Thanks in advance. Sev.

[meki]

I am reading this in cross correlation with my issues going on Post TX - and possibly Interferon based reaction.

I'm trying to glean as much information re the symptoms as possible prior to going in.

I HATE when the doctors don't know ANYTHING about what is going on --- and the second thing I hate is knowing more than the doctor about what is going on...

And even worse - I hate a doctor who doesn't know anything yet proceeds to tell me what to do.

I think doctors have forgotten that THESE ARE OUR BODIES...

We live in them

We know what is going on --- LOL!

OK - maybe some of us do... ROFLMAO!

Anyhow --- I wanted to say that this is quite an interesting discussion --- and I very much thank you all for participating...

Reddawg's questioning prompted some decent responses... And Merrybe - the work you have done on research is quite nice.

Meki

[merryBe]

thanks.....I just got another "oh really" from a doctor  whom I told HCV may have caused my pituitary to shut down.  

there is not general knowledge of this connection even though the research is clear.

If you stop to think about it when do you most need to repair your liver is when this virus is attacking it....so having the virus also effect the gland that commands repairs be done is a double whammy.

[merryBe]

Plöckinger U, Krüger D, Bergk A, Weich V, Wiedenmann B, Berg T.
Interdisziplinäres Stoffwechsel-Centrum, Charité-Universitätsmedizin Berlin, Campus Virchow-Klinikum, Berlin, Germany.

OBJECTIVES: In vitro and in vivo data indicate multiple, but contradictory effects of interferon on pituitary hormone secretion. We therefore investigated prospectively basal and stimulated pituitary hormone secretion in 21 patients with chronic hepatitis C virus (HCV) infection before and during antiviral therapy. METHODS: Twenty-one patients received pegylated interferon-alpha plus either ribavirin or levovirin. Baseline and stimulated growth hormone (GH), cortisol, luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), prolactin (PRL), and thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH) responses were measured using standard pituitary function tests, before therapy in all and during therapy in 17 out of the 21 patients. RESULTS: Before therapy 17 patients (81%) had severe GH insufficiency and 9 of these had low insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) concentrations. Basal and stimulated GH concentrations increased significantly during therapy, reducing the number of patients with severe GH insufficiency to four, but IGF-1 remained low. Basal PRL and TSH concentrations were normal before and during therapy, while thyroid-releasing hormone (TRH)-stimulated concentrations increased significantly during therapy. The adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH)/cortisol axis, basal and stimulated gonadotropin, and testosterone concentrations were normal throughout. Neither the HCV RNA level nor transaminases correlated with hormone concentrations before or during therapy. CONCLUSIONS: GH insufficiency is common in patients with chronic HCV infection. While GH secretion improves during antiviral therapy, IGF-1 remains low, indicating persistent GH resistance of hepatocytes. Whether improvement in GH secretion during treatment is due to a direct drug effect or related to the suppression of viral load could not be differentiated, as most patients demonstrated a positive virologic response.

[merryBe]

sorry I never noticed your question or saw an alert..

your IGF-1 is age dependant, the younger you are the higher it should be

you must be in your middle age, for your norm to be that number..

as stated the     150-190 is for those in their fifties, as most HCV er's in here are....I  said that a couple times, but they were long posts.

sorry for the delays response

[merryBe]

no offense, but these kind of studies offend me.

>>>>9 people...4 alcoholics and kids with CLD (un deaths door basically)  


and from this they conclude this hormone is evil.

first of all any double blind with under ten people is suspect..

standard protocol is 100 people.

second, lipod prqfiles and insulin resisyance are all going to be way different in alcoholics or 5 children with CJD (totally shot livers) than    the average populace. Obviously the liver acts differently if it totally cirrotic or if someone keeps guzzling paint thinner.

Don't know about anyone else but this proves nada as far as what an average person taking care of themselves might expect to happen.

Honestly reddawg,  you have to see the flaws in that study...., I'm surprised you aren't spending time trying to talk people who need procrit out it it......after all it's another one of those pesty enginneered protein human hormones that stimulates the marrow to make blood.

In these cases, 9 only...of the toughest known...and no measurable improvement...what did      you expect...in the presence of alcohol insulin resistance always goes higher as the liver tries to detox the aceylene etc...sugar remain high.....CLD kids can't metabolize at all...once chirrosis (cirrhosis) is rock hard no one hormone is going to solve or reverse everything because the ability of HGH to work and begin a reversal of damage is based on the premise that there is some healthy tissue there  to begin with.
You would not expect a thyroid to work again is it had been totally irradiated....well a liver turned entirely to solid scar tissue cannot either. The study does not even indicate what stage these kids were at....again, a study is only a good as the people running it....
so a boozer will not be helped....well now we know....
but wait..we already knew that right? The alcohol will chew you up with this virus no matter what else you do....so what is new in those observations beats me.

[merryBe]

Just curious if anyone has had any luck with their docs yet regarding this tx.

read something a while back suggesting IF-1 returned to almost normal levels in some successful HCV treaters. That's the good news,
the bad news is that confirms my theory that the HCV is effecting the entire endocrine system, including the pancreas and may be therefore be responsible for much of the diebetes (diabetes) not to mention the HCC, thyroid disease and host of other diseases. It the domino effect.

So has anyone gotten their Endo to get on board yet??
DD, sfgirl, Meki?????

mb

[Upbeat]

Wow
         Thanks for the posts. This is interesting reading.  I can;t make heads or tails of it. Seems like the Jury is split about 50/50.  I am somewhat perplexed about the diabetes.  All that is known for sure is there is a high rate of diabetes associated with hep-c.  I wonder if natural higher IF-1 in people with  hep-c has anything to do with bloodsugar levels?

                                                                                                                        Ron

[Ryansmom17]

Thanks for posting this. I see this is an old thread, very interesting one too lol
all of the things you mentioned in the first posy about the RA, Fibro, insomnia, neck and back injuries from an accident. I to find just getting out of my jammies and in the shower many days a tough chore. I am not even on tx yet, and I live this everyday already........This is why I fear the tx at all for me! I am going to my Dr next week due to being hospitalized beginning of this week. I will ask her to order this blood test. I am curious to see what mine is. If you said yours was of a 90 yr old!! WOW!! Im happy that there are some of you that take the time out to do these researches. I do NOT have the patience to sit here and do that! My mind has been on overload for a while now. And now I have yet another diagnosis that landed me in the hospital 3 days before Christmas. My concentration level in 0. So I am grateful to find these researches in here. Thank You
Jenn

[merryBe]

yes it can be perplexing. I had type 2 prediebetes, abd the HGH and the IB+NF have not effected it. In fact my blood sugars are better than ever before.

I think the main concern is when young people treat or athletes overtreat. Obviously anything that stimulated the IGF  Insulin Growth Factor should in theory help the metabolism of said sugars since it is the bodies inability to produce insulin that create type 1 and resistance to insulin that creates type 2 diebetes (diabetes).

The wild card is always going to be the interferon in my mind since we know it tweaks into a much higher gear the immune system, it can also trigger autoimmune responses.

This however is not something one can avoid entirely in life regardless. I know of one gal who was covered with psorihasis after getting strep throat, and another who had a rash for four years after toughing t christmas tree. (me).  
So at any time, and number of foods or medications or matural substances can trigger an autoimmune response that will effect, skin, joints, organs or whatever.

However I don't think we can live in constant fear of what might happen. Eventhough it's true there are some serious sides that can develop, and some in here still live with them today, the vast majority make it through treatment without any long term sides.
That of course can change as we age, and the older, and the less our other glands are working does effect it all.

My instinct tell me the triggers for autoimmune diebetes (diabetes) are caused more by other factors than just the chemo therapies. For instance with type 1 we know that the isles of Langerhorn are destroyed in the absence of adequate amounts of vitamin A&D. These lipids help protect many areas of the body from degererative and infectious conditions especially the eyes ears nose throat and pancreas all benefit from an adequate supply.

mb