Aa
Liver damage; another question
Is it possible to know if liver scarring or damage or fibrosis is due to HepC or is due to drugs or drinking? I have a biopsy. Is there a way for the doctors to look at the slide and come to the conclusion that the amount of scarring is due to chemicals or the HepC virus?
Many thanks for any responses
Many thanks for any responses
Very Heppy: I think they can distinguish the difference.
Bob: It matters because if they determine that the liver damage is caused by alcohol or drugs, it impacts whether you can be approved for treatment or a liver transplant.
Susan
Bob: It matters because if they determine that the liver damage is caused by alcohol or drugs, it impacts whether you can be approved for treatment or a liver transplant.
Susan
I agree - ring has been great. I just had to say that I thought her respose was a little extreme. I certainly don't want to cause another melee in here! Just want to be a proponent of civility and thoughtful, measured responses...
Chevy, I'm also btsnyder in hepatitisneighborhood! They have great "chats" with experts on a regular basis which are really informative!
Chevy, I'm also btsnyder in hepatitisneighborhood! They have great "chats" with experts on a regular basis which are really informative!
yes, i am having a really really hard time with these meds and effects the past 4 or 5 days.....and i miss being able to find the humor in it all, and i'd be willing to bet that this nonsense is part of it, that the lightness and humor and fun has been lost for many that are struggling....thati am unable to post anything without a mean spirited response from someone, is not helping in the least....yah i'm angry, yah i feel ripped off...and yes i am even more angry at myself for NOT being able to LET IT GO....
I know...I really feel for you, honestly! You've been so great in here and have helped so many people, me included. I hope you realize that. I just don't want you to unecessarily cut ties with this forum. Like you've helped so many, let us help you, too. People can be less than helpful and understanding when you get their cackles up! :-)
well, i finally had a break through, thank you...went from anger....to the REAL emotion, in a split second reading your response.....HURT AND FEAR
thanks for that...i needed that
kimmy
thanks for that...i needed that
kimmy
I don't think Susan was being at all judgmental and that was a COMPLETELY UNCALLED-FOR attack.
What Susan said certainly applies when it comes to alcohol and being considered for a transplant:
<A href="http://www.umm.edu/transplant/liver/indliver.html">University of Maryland Medicine</a>
<A href="http://www.upmclivercancercenter.com/Information/Alcohol.asp?section=Information#15">Liver Cancer Center</a>
<A href="http://www.medhelp.org/glossary2/new/GLS_2937.HTM">Liver Transplant Definition Medhelp</a>
It is not a moral judgment, but a medical one. In addition, doctors will not begin treatment with combo therapy until a patient is sober for a length of time.
Also, it can be determined from biopsy if the cause of hepatitis is viral or alcohol as you can see in these <A href="http://edcenter.med.cornell.edu/CUMC_PathNotes/Liver,GB,Pancreas/LIVERLIST.html">slides</a>.
What Susan said certainly applies when it comes to alcohol and being considered for a transplant:
<A href="http://www.umm.edu/transplant/liver/indliver.html">University of Maryland Medicine</a>
<A href="http://www.upmclivercancercenter.com/Information/Alcohol.asp?section=Information#15">Liver Cancer Center</a>
<A href="http://www.medhelp.org/glossary2/new/GLS_2937.HTM">Liver Transplant Definition Medhelp</a>
It is not a moral judgment, but a medical one. In addition, doctors will not begin treatment with combo therapy until a patient is sober for a length of time.
Also, it can be determined from biopsy if the cause of hepatitis is viral or alcohol as you can see in these <A href="http://edcenter.med.cornell.edu/CUMC_PathNotes/Liver,GB,Pancreas/LIVERLIST.html">slides</a>.
Well, if I knew how to use icons, I would send you a big smiley face! Hang in there, babe!
Hey there!
Glad to see ya back where ya belong!!!!! On this Forum!
You have been a true inspiration to me too, in more ways than one!
Stick at it gal....I'm right behind you!
Best wishes,
Louise
Glad to see ya back where ya belong!!!!! On this Forum!
You have been a true inspiration to me too, in more ways than one!
Stick at it gal....I'm right behind you!
Best wishes,
Louise
some interestining infor. on MILK THISTLE and liver cirrhoisis caused by alcohol included too.
Milk Thistle Primary Uses - Alcohol Related Liver disease, Hepatitis, Liver cirrhosis, Gallstones
Potent Liver Protector
Milk Thistle is a potent liver protector. It has been used for centuries to treat cirrhosis, chronic hepatitis, and alcoholic cirrhosis. It can inhibit the production of the virus that causes hepatitis, stimulate the immune system, and actually restore damaged liver cells. In Germany it is part of the standard treatment for many liver diseases.
Toxic Breakdown
The liver is the largest and most complex solid organ in the body, with an incomparable chemical structure capable of breaking down a variety of toxic substances and rendering them harmless. Its purpose is to maintain, regulate and protect the life of the cells. This vital organ is also the main storehouse, which holds fats, sugars and proteins coming from the digestive tract. It is responsible for the secretion of bile needed to aid the digestion of fats, the formation of blood, metabolic processes, detoxification and the production of heat.
Toxic Degeneration
Since 1969, Milk Thistle research has proven that this unique plant can actually help the liver cells to repair and regenerate themselves. Milk Thistle contains significant flavones, which protect some of the intra-cellular components of liver cells from lipid per oxidation, and its benefits are shown to be considerably more powerful than those of Vitamin E.
Remarkable liver healer
Hundreds of scientific research papers highlight Milk Thistle, also known as Silybum Marianum, as one of the most potent liver healers, protectors and regenerators known to man. The seeds of this remarkable plant yield a nontoxic extract, Silymarin that enhances the metabolism of liver cells and protects them from toxic damage. It has been proven to be an outstanding hepatic and provides the simplest way of decongesting the liver, inhibiting the production of the virus that causes hepatitis, stimulating the immune system and regulating the production of lecithin and cholesterol.
Milk Thistle actually restores damaged liver cells
Tests conducted over 4 to 8 weeks on patients with alcoholic liver damage showed that supplementation with Milk Thistle not only halted the damage being done to the liver, but the livers in these patients actually showed significant improvement. Milk Thistle aided regeneration and healed previously damaged livers - all while the patients continued to drink as they normally did. Tissue examinations from clinical and laboratory studies have found Milk Thistle to have beneficial effects in treating all of the following conditions: Chronic Hepatitis, Jaundice, Alcoholic Cirrhosis, Liver damage, Bile stagnation, Alcohol and chemical induced fatty liver disease.
Hepatitis Treatment
Hepatitis C accounts for about 150,000 new cases of viral hepatitis in the United States annually and 10,000 people die from it each year. Right now the U.S. Public Health Service considers hepatitis C an epidemic. Patients with hepatitis are treated with either interferon or steroids. Neither of these two treatments has an effective cure rate, and both of these drugs have horrific side effects. When all else fails, the liver is removed. Hepatitis is the leading reason for liver transplants in the United States. Hepatitis is a relatively new disease in Western countries. It has, however, been a major disease in Asia for centuries. The Chinese have been treating hepatitis B and C for years with a combination of herbs that studies have shown to be effective 50 % of the time. Usually patients show improvement after three to six months of treatment, with no appreciable side effects. If you're at risk from hepatitis, one of the herbal supplements recommended to be taken daily to strengthen your liver, is Milk Thistle.
Crucial Biologically
Diseases of the liver affect the well being of the whole body. However, the liver may suffer damage for a long time before its deterioration is noted. Nowadays, most livers have to cope with huge quantities of chemicals, noxious wastes including coffee, alcohol, cigarettes, medicinal drugs, radiation, air pollution and artificial foods. Stress also upsets the liver's function. Anyone who drinks, and especially those who are heavy users of alcohol, as well as those using pharmaceutical drugs or undergoing chemotherapy would be well advised to take Milk Thistle. Milk Thistle is safe and non-toxic. It has no recorded side effects and may be taken indefinitely.
Milk Thistle Primary Uses - Alcohol Related Liver disease, Hepatitis, Liver cirrhosis, Gallstones
Potent Liver Protector
Milk Thistle is a potent liver protector. It has been used for centuries to treat cirrhosis, chronic hepatitis, and alcoholic cirrhosis. It can inhibit the production of the virus that causes hepatitis, stimulate the immune system, and actually restore damaged liver cells. In Germany it is part of the standard treatment for many liver diseases.
Toxic Breakdown
The liver is the largest and most complex solid organ in the body, with an incomparable chemical structure capable of breaking down a variety of toxic substances and rendering them harmless. Its purpose is to maintain, regulate and protect the life of the cells. This vital organ is also the main storehouse, which holds fats, sugars and proteins coming from the digestive tract. It is responsible for the secretion of bile needed to aid the digestion of fats, the formation of blood, metabolic processes, detoxification and the production of heat.
Toxic Degeneration
Since 1969, Milk Thistle research has proven that this unique plant can actually help the liver cells to repair and regenerate themselves. Milk Thistle contains significant flavones, which protect some of the intra-cellular components of liver cells from lipid per oxidation, and its benefits are shown to be considerably more powerful than those of Vitamin E.
Remarkable liver healer
Hundreds of scientific research papers highlight Milk Thistle, also known as Silybum Marianum, as one of the most potent liver healers, protectors and regenerators known to man. The seeds of this remarkable plant yield a nontoxic extract, Silymarin that enhances the metabolism of liver cells and protects them from toxic damage. It has been proven to be an outstanding hepatic and provides the simplest way of decongesting the liver, inhibiting the production of the virus that causes hepatitis, stimulating the immune system and regulating the production of lecithin and cholesterol.
Milk Thistle actually restores damaged liver cells
Tests conducted over 4 to 8 weeks on patients with alcoholic liver damage showed that supplementation with Milk Thistle not only halted the damage being done to the liver, but the livers in these patients actually showed significant improvement. Milk Thistle aided regeneration and healed previously damaged livers - all while the patients continued to drink as they normally did. Tissue examinations from clinical and laboratory studies have found Milk Thistle to have beneficial effects in treating all of the following conditions: Chronic Hepatitis, Jaundice, Alcoholic Cirrhosis, Liver damage, Bile stagnation, Alcohol and chemical induced fatty liver disease.
Hepatitis Treatment
Hepatitis C accounts for about 150,000 new cases of viral hepatitis in the United States annually and 10,000 people die from it each year. Right now the U.S. Public Health Service considers hepatitis C an epidemic. Patients with hepatitis are treated with either interferon or steroids. Neither of these two treatments has an effective cure rate, and both of these drugs have horrific side effects. When all else fails, the liver is removed. Hepatitis is the leading reason for liver transplants in the United States. Hepatitis is a relatively new disease in Western countries. It has, however, been a major disease in Asia for centuries. The Chinese have been treating hepatitis B and C for years with a combination of herbs that studies have shown to be effective 50 % of the time. Usually patients show improvement after three to six months of treatment, with no appreciable side effects. If you're at risk from hepatitis, one of the herbal supplements recommended to be taken daily to strengthen your liver, is Milk Thistle.
Crucial Biologically
Diseases of the liver affect the well being of the whole body. However, the liver may suffer damage for a long time before its deterioration is noted. Nowadays, most livers have to cope with huge quantities of chemicals, noxious wastes including coffee, alcohol, cigarettes, medicinal drugs, radiation, air pollution and artificial foods. Stress also upsets the liver's function. Anyone who drinks, and especially those who are heavy users of alcohol, as well as those using pharmaceutical drugs or undergoing chemotherapy would be well advised to take Milk Thistle. Milk Thistle is safe and non-toxic. It has no recorded side effects and may be taken indefinitely.
You know, I'm not one of the ones who think your humor is funny, but you know what? It doesn't matter. You're entitled to your opinions, humor, rage, fear and loathing and you don't even need me to say so. I am in week 14 and I have experienced aches, anemia, rage, fog, skin eruptions, loss of sleep, and had a bunch of real-world problems hit all at once the month I started tx. So I do understand how you feel to some extent.
I know you feel hurt and attacked. I do not ever want to go back and forth about who did what and who deserved what because nothing good can come of it. Besides, like Rashomon, we all see things from our own vantage points and we all believe that our view is true and objective. Is there any way for all of us to get past this?
I am asking, please, can all of us post at will but think twice about putting someone down or expressing real anger at someone on this board? Disagree, sure, point out inaccuracies, alternate viewpoints, bust chops, but respectfully to everyone, whether or not, in our opinion, they deserve our respect or courtesy.
We are a family here--those on tx, those with HepC, those contemplating tx, those with spouses/significant others with HepC, all of us. Like a family, we're stuck with each other and like a family, we need to help each other out.
I know you feel hurt and attacked. I do not ever want to go back and forth about who did what and who deserved what because nothing good can come of it. Besides, like Rashomon, we all see things from our own vantage points and we all believe that our view is true and objective. Is there any way for all of us to get past this?
I am asking, please, can all of us post at will but think twice about putting someone down or expressing real anger at someone on this board? Disagree, sure, point out inaccuracies, alternate viewpoints, bust chops, but respectfully to everyone, whether or not, in our opinion, they deserve our respect or courtesy.
We are a family here--those on tx, those with HepC, those contemplating tx, those with spouses/significant others with HepC, all of us. Like a family, we're stuck with each other and like a family, we need to help each other out.
I am an x IV drug user and drank heavily right up until my liver failure on july 5 02(my 45th birthday) If my liver had not improved a little by my change of life, change of diet, and medication, I would have been put on the waiting list. I see no preference despite life style, except they want you sober 6 mos, if you have time to wait that long. Joni
hey I'm no expert, but I really believe that the docs can't tell what caused the liver damage. Alcohol, drugs, and viruses cause the same kind of damage (maybe more fatty liver with alcohol). The slides don't look any different regardless of how they are labeled. They are labeled viral or alcohol based on patient report. I also believe that if someone has a documented or reported hx of alcohol or substance abuse/dependence, they are less likely to qualify for a tranplant as the prognosis is considered to be poor (only because the docs weigh the odds and believe that this type of individual would continue to drink and/or drug and why waste a perfectly good liver?) No offense to anyone. Can I walk on eggshells or what?
AMEN. Like someone said the other day, that a common thread (hep C) has brought us all here together, ppl we probably wouldnt give the time of day to in "real life" but on the anonymous internet we are like ppl in cars with road rage, big and tough and mouthy. I didnt like this site when 2 or 3 ppl overtook it with their "Im new but I feel compelled to answer every question posted" attitudes, chatting away like birds in an aviary. I came in here on that fateful weekend tired, sad, frustrated, stressed and all the usual **** and was ready to tell these mynah birds to exchange email addresses and leave this site for more serious question & answer stuff. But I ended up laughing at them, with them, and made them and others laugh. There comes a time when a person's ties, usefulness, desires, goals, satisfaction and loyalty change, and for me this site has fulfilled its usefulness to me; the newbies questions are becoming redundant to me, there are snippy snobby ones who wont come down off their high horses, and those who just wont go away, even after being asked to leave(Space). I didnt like it then, and I like even less now. I am afraid to post here now, for fear of being wrong or inacurate, or too wordy. I am tired of the bickering, just tired of it all.
I am going to keep up my web site for as long as there is an interest in it, and for as long as ppl keep me updated. I may stop in here once in awhile but I have come to the conclusion it is time to move on/over/away! Those of you I have come to know and love, I have your emails and will keep in touch that way. Those who want to write or vs my site I am at: auggieaz
@yahoo.com www.geocities.com/auggieaz So long, happy trails to you, OHC
I am going to keep up my web site for as long as there is an interest in it, and for as long as ppl keep me updated. I may stop in here once in awhile but I have come to the conclusion it is time to move on/over/away! Those of you I have come to know and love, I have your emails and will keep in touch that way. Those who want to write or vs my site I am at: auggieaz
@yahoo.com www.geocities.com/auggieaz So long, happy trails to you, OHC
Since "The Kids" are fightimg here......
Can YOU please look at the first post and answer the original question....."can a biopsy really determine wether damage is a result of substance abuse or Hcv in an Hcv infected person"?
Since I never had a biopsy I can't say for sure.
Can YOU please look at the first post and answer the original question....."can a biopsy really determine wether damage is a result of substance abuse or Hcv in an Hcv infected person"?
Since I never had a biopsy I can't say for sure.
thanks all!!!!I AGREE TOO, time to move forward.....treatment days are mostly good...but when there bad...there really REALLY bad!....i have been fairly lucky i think til this past week...
BEFUDD...i am no doctor or nurse ratchett....but i do seem to remember from when my child was young, a low grade fever is more cause for concern, as it ususally indicates the body attempting to fight off...viral, or bacterial infection...don't rememeber which but if it has been 3 days or more i'd tell your doc...OPPS well maybe it is BECAUSE of the tx..humm talk to your doc...my fever monday night(after injection ) and good part of tuesday, spiked to a comfortable 103.something and stayed there, til today...tylonel will bring a high fever down as well as 'spilling a huge cold glass of water...by accident on yourself...long story, it was in a moment of delerium tue. night, or was it mon??/.., or a teppid bath yuk...give me the drugs instead when i'm already shivering thanks....anyway, low grade is more cause for concern...also, of interest, my temp has almost consistantly remained BELOW normal since begginning tx, with the exception of a few times after inject...
as for ambien spl? the first time i ever heard about that was here....hugs...and thanks guys
BEFUDD...i am no doctor or nurse ratchett....but i do seem to remember from when my child was young, a low grade fever is more cause for concern, as it ususally indicates the body attempting to fight off...viral, or bacterial infection...don't rememeber which but if it has been 3 days or more i'd tell your doc...OPPS well maybe it is BECAUSE of the tx..humm talk to your doc...my fever monday night(after injection ) and good part of tuesday, spiked to a comfortable 103.something and stayed there, til today...tylonel will bring a high fever down as well as 'spilling a huge cold glass of water...by accident on yourself...long story, it was in a moment of delerium tue. night, or was it mon??/.., or a teppid bath yuk...give me the drugs instead when i'm already shivering thanks....anyway, low grade is more cause for concern...also, of interest, my temp has almost consistantly remained BELOW normal since begginning tx, with the exception of a few times after inject...
as for ambien spl? the first time i ever heard about that was here....hugs...and thanks guys
It depends...
First, using a drug or alcohol long term (years) would look different from a drug used only a few weeks..acute versus chronic damage.
There are some meds that cause a particular type of pattern of injury that would "appear" different than hep c damage. Other meds simply "inflame" the liver so this may not look much different.
Alcohol damage tends to show up as inflammation, scaring and fatty replacement. It is many times hard to differentiate this damage from the hep C damage.
Erin
GI.PA
First, using a drug or alcohol long term (years) would look different from a drug used only a few weeks..acute versus chronic damage.
There are some meds that cause a particular type of pattern of injury that would "appear" different than hep c damage. Other meds simply "inflame" the liver so this may not look much different.
Alcohol damage tends to show up as inflammation, scaring and fatty replacement. It is many times hard to differentiate this damage from the hep C damage.
Erin
GI.PA
Thank you for saying what I was thinking. I hung around this forum for 3 mos. before tx. I was hear to learn, not teach or preach. My Dad once told me once, if you want to learn, take the cotton out of your ears and put it it in your mouth. I think that's pretty good advice. Joni
Hey....
I want to wish you well on your journey through this "Sea of Life". We all try to find our way through all the crud and **** that surrounds us. Sometimes we find "something" that helps us ...for awhile. Sometimes we can even help others along their way too. You have certainly done that here. I, for one, have really appreciated your info and whit and general love and caring that you have shown to all who you addressed.
I also understand your need to move on. Things change and moving on is a necessary part of everyones life.
I wish you well on your Journey...........
I want to wish you well on your journey through this "Sea of Life". We all try to find our way through all the crud and **** that surrounds us. Sometimes we find "something" that helps us ...for awhile. Sometimes we can even help others along their way too. You have certainly done that here. I, for one, have really appreciated your info and whit and general love and caring that you have shown to all who you addressed.
I also understand your need to move on. Things change and moving on is a necessary part of everyones life.
I wish you well on your Journey...........
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