Liver damage in general

[Upbeat]

I asked my Doctor about liver damage in general and he said almost everyone would show some type of damage on biopsy.  The older you get the more likely the damage. The liver is the toxin filter of your body and if you drink or have fatty liver or because of your genes your liver may not repair as quickly as others. There is no way to determine who will progress to liver failure.

                                                           Ron

[mikesimon]

Kalio said:
What makes sense to me is that your liver doctor deals with livers that DO NOT heal and get progressively worse and worse not better and he does transplants so it makes sense he would not see "healing liver" phenomenon in his pratice, he is a transplant specialist, he puts new ones in. All the people saying their doctors have said this happens are doctors dealing with people who's livers DO heal.
I hardly think that "healing pains" would be listed on warning labels, warnings are cautionary by nature and having some healing pain or restructuring pain is not a side effect of the drugs themselves.

And I suppose that once a patient, like me, transplanted for HCV  he just throws in the towel upon recurrence of HCV which, by the way, occurs universally. Now, at last count HCV is the number 1 reason for liver transplantation so I know that he has a lot of experience with HCV and treatment - the same drugs that your doctor uses. He's been treating me and countless others for quite a while. And some patient's livers, like mine, do heal, notwithstanding your suggestion that they never do - that's a grim view of this life saving technique and I find you quite offensive - if not convincing. Now, I would guess you'd try to  distinguish us transplants on the basis that we are immunocompromised and there are, in fact, distinctions that can be made but I doubt seriously you're competent to discuss such a complex subject. And, if by chance you want to submit that the liver architecture of transplanted livers is different from native livers I think you'd be quite wrong. And finally, I don't know your doctor's practice parameters but I would guess that my transplant surgeon is vastly more knowledgeable about liver architecture than is your doctor. Your doctor probably never sees a live except on film. This last post of your is predictably futile. I know you've been searching desperately for some shread of evidence in support of the premise that liver pain can be caused by restructuring but you just can't find any. But there is a lot of support for the premise that "liver pain" is caused by swelling. Yea, your doctor said........... I know. Mike

[Upbeat]

Do I understand this right?  You were transplanted and your new liver developed hep-c?  Your new liver is healing with treatment. Is this correct?  

                                                         Ron

[mikesimon]

Yes, I was tranpslanted in June 2000 with the underlying disease Hepatitis C. Two months after transplant I started treatment with 3 x per week interferon and low does ribavirin -400 - 600 mg daily. I treated for 53 weeks and did not clear. I waited 6 months and treated with Peg-Intron and 800 mg. ribavirin for 52 weeks. I cleared late in TX and relapsed in < 3 weeks. I treated 1 month later with Pegasys and 1000 mg ribavirin. I cleared by week 12 and treated for a total of 73 weeks. I stopped treatment in June 2004 and have been undetectable on monthly Heptimax Serum tests since April 2003. I just tested 2 weeks ago and was undetectable. There is another twist to my story but I've gone on long enough. Thanks for asking about me. Mike

[mikesimon]

In case you don't know this the hepatitis c recurs universally after transplantation. It's a blood born disease so transplantation is no cure for the underlying disease. And post transplant HCV can be quite vigorous and the rate of fibrosis for those who don't clear post transplnat is significantly more rapid than those who do clear and generally more rapid than would be the case in a native liver. Mike

[copyman]

hi mike, i did not know your story with this disease. you have been through the whole gambit of this dreaded disease. glad to hear you finally rid your body of the dragon. hope you stay healthy and clear. god bless

[Upbeat]

Mike has alot to offer. He has traveled down the path that we all fear the most.

                                                         Ron

[can-do-man]

Upbeat, Couldn't have said it better. For some of us looking down that road id rather have somebody thats been down it and knows then people who thinks they know.

Mike, Thanks.

[dyce]

This is the truth, no better directions than from 1 whose been down the road!!

[Kalio1]

you said
" And I suppose that once a patient, like me, transplanted for HCV he just throws in the towel upon recurrence of HCV"

That is a lot to suppose and has nothing to do with the original subject. I didn't say anything of the sort.  
The others in that threa and there were a number of people. said their doctors' said the same thing as mine regarding "healing pain." or "restructurig pain"
I just accept that different doctors have different views, there really is no right or wrong view on it and leave it at that.
My point from that thread a few days ago that you have again brought up was that the fact that you have a different type of doctor than us, a transplant surgeon, might explain why his opinion differs from our doctor's opinions. Not one word was said about transplant and HCV reoccurance. I won't post responses to you in the future as you always become condescending and rude in your need to be right.

[mikesimon]

One last time:
You are the one that said:
"your liver doctor deals with livers that DO NOT heal and get progressively worse and worse not better and he does transplants so it makes sense he would not see "healing liver" phenomenon in his pratice, he is a transplant specialist....."

Since you might not know this, transplant surgeons don't see their patients prior to transplantation, so my surgeon does not deal "with livers that DO NOT heal and get worse and worse not better and he dose transplants".
At my facility the patients never see their surgeon prior to transplantation, at least in a doctor - patient setting. They get called when a liver is available and they come in and they get the surgeon on duty at the time. Then, after transplant, my surgeon treats his patients for all types of diseases - HCV, HBV, AIH, PSC, PBC etc. And they do have a hepatology department at my center and I have consulted with at least 3 hepatologists there but my surgeon is the one who treats me. My liver, shortly post transplant, got severely distressed due to recurrence of HCV. My enzymes were quite high and my liver was inflamed and enlarged as is common in patients who are transplanted for HCV. He treated me and my liver improved and finally after 3 treatments I reached SVR. So he does treat patients whose livers do heal. So, in that sense, he might be competent to offer an opinion on the effects of HCV treatment with patients whose livers do heal. I said early on that he could be wrong about his opinion - he's certainly not infallible. I just respect his opinion and I can't find anything anywhere that supports your doctor's view and contradicts my doctor's view, aside from accounts of what a patient's doctor told them. And if you or anyone else believes that "restructuring causes liver pain" that's fine by me. I don't see that it would hurt anyone to believe it. Now, I'm done with this until and unless soemthing new surfaces that is relevant to this topic. I am not invested in believing one way or the other except that I like to know the truth about this stuff. On a personal level I could care less whether my surgeon is right or wrong about "restructuring" except insofar as it reflects on his overall competence. But after a transplant, successful TX and 6 years of being his patient I'm inclined to trust his opinion until there is good reason to doubt it. Mike

[slowsouthernstyle]

i have found that to be true about him to kalio1.i know how he is supposed to be very smart and all but if you are smart you don't insullt people and think you know it all.kalio1 is one of the nicest people on here and does not deserve to be treated with disrespect.slow

[bustingout]

I AGREE Kalio1 is one of the nicest people I have meant on these threads. I am however new on this forum. Thanks KALIO 1 you are always so nice and helpful to me. (Slowsouthernstyle are you from Florida?)

[slowsouthernstyle]

i was born on sand mountin in trenton georgia and lived all over the country.

[Kalio1]

I was reading the other day about alpha vs beta interferon and I got to wondering if you had tried both? I don't know the details of your stats but I do know you have attempted tx many times. Maybe you cant take IF for some reason but I thought I'd share this just in case. There was a man at my doctors who had used the beta IFN after failed attempts with the alpha, I stupidly didn't get details but it worked for him. He is the only one I have heard has used it but I wonder if it could be an option for you? I know that sometimes changing the interferon can do the trick for some. Anyway, I thought I'd pass on this paper on it.
That is a beautiful place you were born, your name always brings to mind our family's fav music and good times, bluegrass. My bro in law is a fiddler and everyone kids, uncles and frinds all play guitar.

Here's the link about both interferons
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/406130

PS. thank you for your kind words.

[slowsouthernstyle]

thank you for the artical i will go read soon.i treated 2 times with inteferon and ribaviran i am not sure which inteferon it was i will ask my doctor.the last time it was with infergen and that medacine was awful.i got so sick i thought i was going to die.ihave great respect for old time fiddlers my daddy was a fiddler i am a singer.i find that i have a hard time hitting the low notes for the past few years but i still preform.i like talking to you.you are nice not like most of the gurls here that seem crabby all the time.i bet you are a beauty too.i will send you some loven.slow

[cuteus]

could you direct us to where anyone is being mistreated?  I am puzzled by your observation.

[mikesimon]

What really upsets me is that no one ever said they bet I am a beauty. Oh well, that's life I guess or some semblance thereof. Mike

[fishdoc]

Mike...your beautiful man... kind, compassionate, and full of inner grace.........  ok, did I just make this another poop thread!!!  take care..

[mikesimon]

Well, you made my day even if you are dangerously close to descending into the dreaded and often expurgated poop. Thanks anyway. Mike