Mental Attitude and SVR

While not about HCV treatment, I thought this article might be of some interest.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/22/health/webmd/main3393759.shtml

One sentence that stood out. Note that the article is about cancer treatment.

""I wish it were true that cancer survival was influenced by the patient's emotional state," he tells WebMD. "But given that it is not, I think we should stop blaming the patient."

I also think the author could have added to the end of the sentence "or the patient should stop blaming themself".

I've seen a lot of real warriors here who did everything asked and then more.  Certainly 'mental attitude' was not the problem.

Initially I was going to post this on the other side, but the article first posted by "dsrt" on genetic pre-determination of SVR made me think it belonged here.

This is not to say that a treatment approach cannot make a difference. Just talking about the "mental attitude" part.

-- Jim

[jmjm530]

On a personal note, I was somewhat obsessed with the mental aspect (pretty much all aspects :) ) of treatment during the first two weeks. Ordered a number of "healing" type tapes from Amazon around the time of my first injection.

Don't know if they helped or not -- no way to know -- and I certainly don't see any downside to these tapes -- but after seeing just about a two-log drop at week one, I have to consider the possiblity that my RVR and SVR were predetermined to some extent  on SOC -- be it because of my genes, my specific viral strain, my immune system, or some combination.

That doesn't mean the double-dosing, riba and all that, didn't play a part -- and certainly compliance played a role. Just thought of thinking out loud here.

[alagirl]

Probably from reading my posts you've observed that I'm not much of a mind over matter type.  I don't believe you can "think" yourself well.

I do think that a healthy sense of humor makes the time you have on earth a lot more enjoyable though.

[Andiamo1]

There are plenty of studies that link depression to reduced immune system functionality.  

While I don't think you can cure yourself with meditation, low stress and a positive attitude definitely help with immune system response.  Otherwise, why would there be a placebo effect?

Eric

[jmjm530]

I don't take issue with what you say, and remember this is not my study, just found it in today's news and interesting -- but it's quite possible that some things -- in this case the cancer studied -- are beyond the effects of a positive mental attitude. I guess my point was that a lot of real warriors here have not received SVR from treatment inspite of a good mental outlook.

-- Jim

[merryBe]

thanks for the article Jim,
at the class on hep c one of the main sides the Dr. spoke of was grown men dissolving in pools of tears, and folks ripping each others heads off for MINOR things.

I'm a big fan of keeping your mind busy, positive self talk, and the enourmous power of prayer,
however, there's just no getting around that the treatment uses up enourmous amounts of your natural seratonin. SO DOES the disease itself because your body is fighting always to kick out a virus....who feels good fighting a bug? After years of that, and THEN kicking it into high gear with tx....no wonder people snap.
We know something different is up when we start growling like Wolf Man Jack on steroids just cause the phone rings!!

SAD TO SAY, the class Dr. said:
more men it seems go off their tx because they cannot admit or accept the trouble they are having, and just ask for the drug they really do need. I'm not a man, but have always considered myself pretty strong, it's harder somehow to admit things, when our self image keeps saying, this should not be the case. I'm wondering though, how much additional suffering should one cause oneself, and family, just to keep that sense of pride intact.

I'm thinking of asking for something this friday, only one month into this tx and I'm snapping at some point each day, if not multiple times. The value unfortunately of certain therapies only becomes apparent when you need them and then do get on them and see a change. I'm glad
in a way that at least these substances are available for heavy coping situations and brain chemistry changes which you CANNOT always control simply with the mind anymore than you can control how you breathe less if one lung is removed!!!
THE THING WORRYING ME is overstimulation, hence less sleep and Riba already messes with that, plus the bad liver rap some antiDeps have.
It's a connundrum I'm trying to solve currently this week.

The idea of taking meds for every emotion, the idea of overuse and over prescribing of seratonin uptake inhibitors is well known now. This is part of what has shaped the attitudes that us "tough guys" should all buck up, and that any use is misuse and/or weakness....but is this true?

Simply put, it isn't true. the treatment drugs have a dramatic effect on brain function.Period.
One can always wean oneself off the anti's when the tx is over, and should...if they clear obviously.
A Cautionary:
(I was given trazedone,a mild anti-depressant, to aide sleep, and later went off of it, and did have crying/emotion like crazy because the doc did not tell me to WEAN off it....VERY,very important!!)

SO, Jim which drug have you hears or learned is best, with the least liver function and sleep issues??

[jmjm530]

Merry: SO, Jim which drug have you hears or learned is best, with the least liver function and sleep issues??
----------------------------------------
You've covered a lot of ground with some very good points.

As to your last question, I'm the wrong one to ask, because except for the first month or so on treatment,  sleeping was not a problem, and in fact I looked forward to the night as it was my only escape from what were many difficult days.

As to ADs, I went without, and was able to get away with it because I stayed at home most of the time, didn't work, and lived by myself.

If I had a family or was working, I probably would have had to do something to keep any sort of peace. My emotions at times were quite raw and my temper at a flash point.  I would cry at TV commercials and slam the phone down on people. These are things  I never did before tx and have never done since.

And, of course, those around you often just don't 'get' it, even though I told them it was the drugs. Treatment for me resulted in the end of some old friendships and problems with family. Funny the family thing. Now that I'm finished and acting 'normal' no one ever mentions my time treating, as if it never happened.  And I've noticed that the few times I've brought it up, they just get uncomfortable and change the topic. Very late in tx, I did try Wellbutrin for a couple of days but it just made me anxious and jittery so I stopped.

Hardly did pain meds as well, except for a very acute ear ache. I was pretty weak and woozy as is, and I think too many pain meds would have turned me from a vegetable into a cooked vegetable :) Also, I had constant prostate and gastro issues (GERD) on treatment, and pain meds would make both worse.

But back to the article. I don't think it was so much about mental attitude and staying on a course of treatment, so much as it was about how mental attitude affects results for those that do stay on a course of treatment. Of course, if your mental attitude takes you off treatment, there may indeed be consequences.

All the best,

-- Jim

[merryBe]

[Forseegood]

I think these articles in major medical journals also have something to say...it's not about blaming oneself for not being positive enough, it's about learning to turn around anger, hostility etc. that can release hormones, adrenalin, etc that *can* negatively effect health
outcomes, but who can definitively say under what circumstances, and to who and when.... it's very hard to quantify and make definitives on these subjects, they are still being studied- so much of this has to do with genetics as well as a myriad of other variables.......there are many studies on these subjects, a ton...

Grounded in scientific research, positive psychology should be distinguished from the kind of mind-over-matter thinking that promised that mental affirmations could cure cancer or warned that people "can't afford the luxury of a negative thought." People with a positive mental outlook are not in a good mood all of the time. But they do have the skills to talk themselves out of a bad mood rather than prolonging it, to take a self-affirming view of both negative and positive events, and to become absorbed in challenging activities. Clinical experience suggests there are practical methods you can use to brighten your mental outlook.


OPTIMISM PAYS OFF

Dozens of studies have correlated a positive mental outlook with various health outcomes. For example, there's evidence that people who are happier or more optimistic:

    * Have stronger immunity. Researchers in 2003 assessed the emotional styles of 334 healthy volunteers, then administered a squirt of rhinovirus (a germ that causes colds) in the nose of each participant. Those who scored high on measures of energy, happiness, and relaxation were significantly less likely to develop colds, regardless of their health practices.


    * Are less likely to die of chronic disease. A decade-long study of some 400 men with HIV found that those who scored highest on a scale that measured positive feelings were less likely to die at any point during the study-regardless of the extent of their illness or use of antiretroviral drugs. A few studies have yielded similar findings for cancer patients.


    * Live longer. In a landmark study released in 2000, scientists at the Mayo Clinic analyzed the records of 839 patients who had been given psychological tests 30 years earlier. Those who scored highest on a scale of pessimism were roughly 20 percent more likely to die prematurely than were optimists. In a 2001 study, older adults who were hopeful about the future had a significantly lower death rate (11 percent) over the seven-year study period than those who said they weren't hopeful (29 percent), even after researchers adjusted for age, smoking, and health status.


STRESSED AND SICKER

On the flip side, people who are depressed, stressed, angry, or distressed tend to fare poorer. In addition to having an increased risk of heart disease (see next section), they:

    * Get sick-or feel sick-more often. Data from one long-running, 30-year study show that, compared with optimistic people, pessimists have a higher risk of physical and mental problems.


    * Have more dental problems. A 2003 Harvard University analysis of more than 42,000 men in the Health Professionals Follow-Up Study found that those who scored highest on an anger questionnaire were 72 percent more likely to develop periodontitis (gum disease) than those who scored lowest.


    * Heal slower from surgery. A small New Zealand study in the journal Psychosomatic Medicine found that patients who were worried before undergoing hernia surgery reported slower, more painful recoveries than those who were less worried. The stressed patients also scored significantly lower on an objective marker of recovery: the levels of the repair protein interleukin-1 in their wound fluid.


    * Are more likely to get Alzheimer's disease. In a December 2003 study in the journal Neurology, involving nearly 800 older people, those most prone to psychological distress-including anxiety, anger, depression, and feelings of helplessness-were twice as likely to develop Alzheimer's as those who were least prone to such feelings.


HOW FEELINGS AFFECT PHYSIOLOGY

The mechanism through which troubled psychological states can influence health is clearest within the cardiovascular system. Substantial research has tied hostility, anger, impatience, and stress to increased heart risk; somewhat lesser evidence suggests that depression and social isolation may also harm the heart.

High levels of emotional stress, particularly anger, cause a surge in certain hormones, such as adrenaline and cortisol, that prepare your body to face an emergency. That surge causes physiological changes that can, in turn, trigger a heart attack or stroke, especially in people whose arteries are already clogged. Mental duress may also contribute to the development of disease by encouraging unhealthy lifestyle choices that increase heart risk-such as drinking, smoking, overeating, and not exercising.

Negative emotions may begin to affect risk factors as early as one's teens. In a study of more than 3,300 people published in The Journal of the American Medical Association, hostile and impatient young adults were nearly twice as likely as their mellower peers to develop hypertension over a 15-year period.


WHAT CAN YOU FIX?

Thus far there has been little research into whether individuals can change their mental outlook and, if so, whether this improves their health. In the book "Authentic Happiness," University of Pennsylvania psychology professor Martin Seligman, Ph.D., argues that our overall level of happiness depends on three factors: inborn tendencies, circumstances, and factors under our control.

Research suggests that we're born with a hardwired emotional profile, or "happiness thermostat." This is a base state of happiness, a "fixed and largely inherited level to which we invariably revert," writes Seligman. The base state may persist despite strokes of fortune or misfortune. For example, one study shows that over time, winners of large lottery prizes are no happier than non-winners. And people paralyzed after spinal-cord injuries wind up only slightly less happy, on average, than individuals who aren't so affected, according to Seligman. One's personal happiness range also appears largely independent of material wealth or other "comfortable life" factors. As long as a person's basic economic needs are met, money has surprisingly little effect on happiness.

Life events can trigger or protect against certain inborn tendencies, such as a tendency toward depression or anxiety. And some circumstances-such as extreme poverty, the death of a child, or caring for a relative with Alzheimer's disease-do have a long-range depressing effect on happiness levels.

While it may not be possible to modify your genetic inheritance or control your external circumstances, it may be possible to modify your mental outlook and response to life events. For example, clinical trials have tested the ability of meditation and other behavioral interventions to reduce hostility in heart patients; they've found that these techniques not only reduce measures of hostility but also may lower blood pressure and possibly reduce the risk of heart-attack recurrence.

Here are some of the ways psychologists believe that you can increase your happiness quotient, and perhaps simultaneously improve your health.


CULTIVATING POSITIVE EMOTION

Both your thinking and your activities affect your mental state. Thought patterns may be more amenable to change and control than many of us realize. Just as you can interrupt an overtalkative friend, you may be able to interrupt your own negative thoughts and interpretations of the world and substitute more positive ones, using what psychologists call "self-talk." Gaining a measure of control may take persistence and perhaps professional counseling, but the mood improvement may be substantial.

[Andiamo1]

I do agree with your overall conclusions.

I find it interesting that interferon causes negative feelings in large numbers of people.  I always wondered what  mechanism interferon triggers that causes so many of us to have emotional problems. Is it an indirect result of interferon stimulating the immune system or a direct chemical action in our brain?

I certainly think there is a direct relationship between mood and our immune system.  Mood can produce changes in the immune system and it seems to me that changes in the immune system can change mood.

I read a paper once that linked the part of the nervous system that controls the gut to depression and depression changing the nervous system that controls the gut.  The more I read about this, at very introductory levels, the more it seems that our emotions, the chemicals in our endocrine system and the large bundles of nerves that control other bodily functions are all linked in a very complex system.  The new drugs that reduce stomach acid also have a mild antidepressant effect.

I have no data to back this up; just a thought produced from the many sleepless nights while on interferon.

Eric

[Andiamo1]

I meant to include you in the above address as well.

[geterdone]

I do not think that anything other than Science and Science alone can cure the body; everything else is just plain bunk. There are no scientific studies that prove otherwise.

geterdone

[geterdone]

Now the flip side of the above statement is,

This board maybe finally getting around to the Bodies Energy Centers and how these drugs are changing the chemical make up in those centers to cause the cascading effects of all sorts of issues related to each of those centers and its cumulative effects, both singularly and in associated related functions of each while on this type of treatment.

Negativity is the biggest poison to the body’s energy systems. Positive thoughts and encouragement build up the body’s energy system as displayed here on this board, time and time again as in the body, mind, and spirit. Science alone will not cure the body of all its aliments but in conjunction with each ones individual will power and energy field to heal oneself. If you were able to see an inferred image of your body, what would you see? Pure and raw evolving energy in a large mass, now take this down to a smaller scale and focuse on that ailing image. If this should makes any kind of sense.

Jasper

[Myown]

http://obssr.od.nih.gov/Content/Publications/Articles/STRESIMM.htm

I found this interesting because I didn't develope antibodies after I had the hep b series.


Summary of Presentation on December 17, 1996
Science Writers Briefing
Sponsored by the OBSSR and the American Psychological Association

The Effects of Stress on the Immune System: Implications for Health

Ronald Glaser, Ph.D.
Department of Medical Microbiology and Immunology, Behavioral Medicine Research Institute, Ohio State University Health Sciences Center

Over the last several years, we have been examining the impact of different kinds of psychological stressors on different aspects of the immune response. These studies included studies on the impact of academic stress on medical students, and also studies involving spousal caregivers of Alzheimer's Disease (AD) patients. In general, in our studies we found that psychological stress can inhibit different aspects of the cellular immune response. The important question was whether these changes in the immune response that we found were great enough to be health risks.

In order to explore whether these changes were biologically significant, we performed a study in which 48 medical students were inoculated with a series of three injections of a Hepatitis-B (Hep-B) vaccine. Each vaccination was administered to coincide with the third day of a three day examination series. Hep-B specific antibody levels and the Hep-B specific T-cell response were measured. Twelve of the forty-eight medical students inoculated with the vaccine had Hep-B antibody after the first injection; these students were characterized by falling into the lower stressed/lower anxiety group of students. Student who reported greater social support and lower anxiety and stress had higher antibody levels to the vaccine and a more vigorous T-cell response at the end of the third inoculation.

In a second series of studies with caregivers of AD patients, similar down-regulation of several aspects of the cellular immune response was observed in caregivers as compared to well-matched control subjects. Once again, we explored the possibility that these changes were significant enough to effect how a person responds to a vaccine; we used the influenza virus vaccine. We measured the antibody and virus-specific T-cell response to the vaccine. AD caregivers showed a poorer antibody response and virus-specific T-cell response following vaccination of the flu vaccine as compared to the control subjects.

The differences in antibody and T-cell responses to these two viruses provide a demonstration of how psychological stress may be able to alter a person's response to a vaccine and therefore risk for infection. We believe that the data obtained with these two vaccines provide a clue for how stress can affect how a person would respond to infection with a live virus.

In the above two studies, we were focusing on the impact of immune changes associated with stress in regard to risk for infectious disease. We have also found that stress can affect wound healing. We found that women who were engaged in stressful dementia caregiving activities took an average of 9 days longer to completely heal a small punch biopsy wound than well matched control subjects, i.e., 24% longer to heal a small, standardized wound. We also measured a cytokine (IL-1) produced by blood cells in the laboratory. IL-1 plays a very important role in wound healing. We found that blood cells obtained from the AD caregivers produced less IL-1 than cells obtained from matched control subjects. These stress related alterations in wound repair could have important clinical implications, particularly for surgical recovery.




  
  

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[nygirl7]

"I've seen a lot of real warriors here who did everything asked and then more.  Certainly 'mental attitude' was not the problem."

Certainly this is true - nobody tried harder than Mr. Beagle Bailey - to this day I get mad at the fact he didn't get SVR because man if anybody gets an A for effort that is the guy at the top of the list.

I do however think sometimes emotionally and mentally how you HANDLE treatment leads to a great deal of how well you make out (ie: on a day to day basis) and having a tough ideal "I have to go to work no matter what" attitude does help with that sort of thing.  State of mind might help with overall life patterns and things but...

unfortunately it doesn't seem to be a matter of our will that leads to SVR.  Wish it were so easy.

Gosh I miss the Beagle.

[merryBe]

well, for certain NSAIDs and GERD don't go together.I have to take tramadol (ultram) for some the the liver pain, (and a back injury) but am keeping it minimal as it raises liver enymes, as do a lot of meds, regardless of what type, put additional tax on the liver.

>>>>>>>"My emotions at times were quite raw and my temper at a flash point.  I would cry at TV commercials and slam the phone down on people. These are things  I never did before tx and have never done since."

glad to hear you say that one, before I knew what was causing "snaps" I contemplated wearing the T-shirt..."I'm out of estrogen, and I've got a gun".

now of course we know that was partly the hep c as well.

I think the benefit of your article is really as confirmation for us, and education of others as to the non-exclusivity of mental state on disease process. While it's true we certainly aide our health by trying to focus on things to distract us from flooding our system with adrenaline and the like, (which occurs whenever we do start to succoumb to worry and/or react to discomfort), I think it most deplorable when those not suffering somehow become the prognosticators of whether the healed get healed or not, and IF they do or don't presume to know why that is.

It's rather like asking the forest, now why couldn't you "thinking green" keep you from being struck by lightning and then fire. I don't see everything as cause and effect to that extent and think the point is to not allow ourselves or others to play the blame game.

[jmjm530]

NY,

Yes, I was thinking of the BB's when I wrote that. He did it all but SVR just wasn't in his cards.

Merry,

That was another problem with the ADs, now that I remember, the GERD. In fact, during treatment it was a real Catch 22 with about every drug I had to take. It helped this but it aggravated the GERD. Or it helped that but it made the prostate act up. Always felt between a rock and a hard place.

As to those "not suffering", I've become quite the cynic on that subject since the treatment experience. BTW ever notice which patient in the hosptial gets all the attention? It's never the sick elderly lady or man crying out because they can't go to the bathroom. No, it's the good looking young man or women in for something temporary like a broken arm. There seems to be something in human nature that makes people shrink away from the truly sick. In spite of what they say, we're not too far away from the jungle.

-- Jim

[mikesimon]

And I thought it was the fact that I complained about everything - you know, the squeaky wheel getting the grease. Now I know it was really my good looks that got me all that attention.
Mike

[jmjm530]

And let's not underrate an engaging personality.

[jmjm530]

Actually, that didn't make any sense from your last post -- but seriously, my guess is you had the wits (and consciousness) to make sure that the wheel squeaked the right way. If you (or someone else) isn't there as a vocal (and sometimes agressive) advocate, then you can be in real trouble in today's hopsitals, as I've seen it and heard about it.

[mikesimon]

I was what they call a "bad patient" but one nurse told me that the bad patients are the ones who get out the fastest. The "good patients" seem to like being there and don't usually recover as fast. I was out of the hospital within 5 days of my transplantation but my surgeon impressed upon me the danger of infection which exists in hospitals so I was happy to leave. Mike

[alagirl]

I believe that you start out with a certain set of genetics and your behavior, surroundings and certain illnesses you may or may not acquire interact with that schemata as a predictor of overall health.

For instance: My father is sixty-two.  He smoked from the time he was thirteen until he was about sixty.  He had, at fifty-seven, a major heart attack that killed two-fifths of his heart muscle and left him dependent on a pace maker after the insertion of stints.  Two years later he was back in the hospital with a fist sized anuerysm of his lower aorta.  He has emphysema and copd.  The doctor told me he his intestines are riddled with diverticulitis (my dad's, not the doctors.  Or, the docor's might be as well, but that would be a little tmi...)  Anway.  Back to the story.  

Doctors at all treatment phases told my father that his cigarette smoking was causing a huge amount of damage and build-up in his blood vessels, more so than usually seen in cigarette smokers his age, but definitely it appeared to be related to smoking.  My take on all of this was that genetically my father had a predisposition to problems that became horribly magnified and at a much younger age due to his own behavior.  (His 100% animal lard diet probably was not all that advantageous either.) My father did quit smoking a couple of years ago, but his health has been permanently altered.

Given my father's genetic factors, I feel that if there is one key thing he could have done to change his health, it would have been to have never picked up a cigarette.  Secondary to that would have been a change in diet.  My mind does not even move to the metaphysical in its estimation of what may or may not have changed the outcome of my father's current state of health.

I would also like to say that the above quoted studies show a correlation between stress and immune issues, not a causality.  Women involved in caring for someone with dementia might also heal more slowly because of the very activities in which they are engaged causing them to heal more slowly (or any number of other factors that have not been studied.)  It is not the best constructed study I've seen in that the study design has two variables that it claims are one.

One concensus on placebos is that they work because they measure things which are inherently subjective in the first place (such as pain threshhold).  Certainly, they don't help everyone, and it would be very interesting to see the psych workup of participants taking part in a placebo effect study.  

They have done studies in which they can evoke religious or extra-terrestrial experiences in people more "prone" to believe they will have such events with the use of magnetic waves.  Just because the people believe what they are experiencing is real does not make it real in those cases.

[meki]

I think it's a combination of everything.

I think the more you stay optimistic - the more you stay in happy spirits - that your body is "more" capable of getting better.

I dunno what it is - but laughter is often a cheerier medicine over all.

I think it's important to laugh --- to love --- and to enjoy life.

I don't know if it makes it "better" or can kill a disease --- but it is like a natural endorphin - and it helps everything else... And ANY help some of us can get - whether it be emotional wellbeing or just a giggle here and there --- helps out.... Whether it cures or not --- helps.

And any help --- is good.

Blaming someone on not having humor and not curing would be wrong tho.

Meki

[Andiamo1]

Is your point that doing bad things to yourself produces bad results?  Or, is it your point that emotions play no part in our healing process?

Statistically, placebos have a  measurable impact on many diseases.  They can lower blood pressure and boost immune system response.  I think that is proof that we know very little about the complex systems that make up our bodies.  Causality/correlation that is a soft argument that could go on forever.  We can probably all draw our subjective opinions from the same data.

[Myown]

Emotional stimuli sums it up for me. And I also most doctors will tell you that stress kills. Ask them to explain it and they may say you will have a heart attack and if you ask them, what causes the heart attack, they will probably tell you high blood pressure from "stress." But if you ask most conventional doctors, "well how does stress do that?" Most of the time they will go back to the top "stress kills leads to heart attack etc.....

What is stress for me, might not be stress for someone else and their stress might not be stress for me, so thats why I believe its what stimulates the 'stress hormone" which is different for each of us. Taking care of sick patients would stimulate my adrenal glands no doubt, yet someone else may be able to do the same job and do it well without feeling stressed to the point of it causing health problems. Why do some people faint when a doctor draws blood? It starts in the mind - a thought - fear - is it real? Absolutely. Does it happen to me when I have blood drawn? No. Does that make it NOT real then? No.

[Mr Liver]

I'm not aware of where your liver health stands, but I wanted to mention that Ultram is almost useless for cirrhotics. Its efficacy increases with better histology.

Regards,
Mr Liver

[FlGuy]

You mentioned Beagle.  Since the last time he checked in here (about a month ago I'd guess) he had a Schiff appointment.  Wonder how that went for Bob.

[merryBe]

Healthy discussion, I love it.

I don't think Jim's point was that mental attitude has no correlation to end results.

Even the purposing just to take "the cure" and "RIB-A-VIRUS" each day requires some positivity to achieve : ).

I think the point was, it's not the end all or definitive correlating factor that all the self-help book sellers might want us to believe it is. It's the old chicken or egg connundrum all over again.

I know a woman with half her brain gone from birth from being raised on LOVE Canal....(THE MOST POLLUTED home developement site in country). Having a good attitude, and even faith in God, has not caused her brain to replace itself.

There are indeed personal and corporate genetics, (for instance the liver repairs better than the brain in all of us, thank Goodness,)
Indeed genotypes, absorption rates, personal diet and health care, other pre-existing conditions,
strains put on the body just by the stress of daily life and family commitments, and a whole host of other things factor into our health and chances of recovery as well. Let's Include good docs, and correct treatment, and whether you make any growth hormone so you CAN repair tissue or make antibodies in the first place....also priceless.

If it turned out that any ONE of these things alone would solve our group "problem"  i.e. HCV, I'm sure we'd all gladly sign on!!!!!!

Science is never going to completely solve any of these questions though; any more than it can ever solve the answer to how did all this intensely intricate design work of our human bodies and the billions of lines of digital code in each DNA/RNA strand just happen to happen....
It is the domain of the Spirit to know these things completely. We are mere bumbling "MR. MAGOO's in laboratory kindergarten by comparison to the oringinal Designer.
Discovery is one thing, science may do some of that.  Definition and conclusions keep changing, depending on which century we're in, and the relative light which we are given therein.

In retrospect, even the towers of strength, energy, love, positive energy, and intelligence all do make their exits in 80 or so years give or take. So do all the scientists, many void of any satisfying or final answers to the questions that most needed asking......

I'm just hoping while we all "fight the good fight" on all the various levels that we simultaneously learn to maintain our gratitude for life, and our sense of the preciousness/purpose without which even eternal health would lose it's benefit.

My brush with cancer 12 years ago was one of the healthier things that ever happened to me....not because it wasn't a struggle, not because I was the best or worst at dealing with that stress, but because the struggle disease brings to the table makes us focus on life, on what is really important, and on eternital issues. All important considerations and rites of passage in life one might argue.
Now if that's not Pollyannish RE:cancer, I don't know what is. "in all things, give thanks", it's easier said than done, not territory of the faint of heart.
Perspective, attitude.....a factor or not a factor...this is the question....either way, best to be prepared.

: ))

[alagirl]

Is your point that doing bad things to yourself produces bad results?  Or, is it your point that emotions play no part in our healing process?
----------------------------------------------------------
I'm thrilled, actually, to be thought to possibly have a point, as for refining what it is, gee...

Seriously though.  My point, or points, are: 1) I don't think emotion plays a part on actual disease progression.  (Unfortunately).  Although I'd much prefer to be around a sick person with a good sense of humor than the alternative (myself included), and I think attitude greatly affects quality of life.

2) I think that certainly, toxins (such as cigarette smoke and certain carcinogens (I'm talking about the big ones most everyone agrees on here, not the carcinogens still in debate), affect health and longevity.  Disease affects it as well.  No matter how healthy someone is, exposure to the smallpox with no vaccination or treatment is a bad deal.  Genetics don't help out a whole lot.  However, bad genetics in the cholestorol/heart disease/lung infirmity, high blood pressure family can be affected by lifestyle issues that are controllable such as smoking, diet, early intervention medication, etc.  

Genetics though, is the biggie.  You pray for a good hand in the genetic lotto and then do everything you can with lifestyle and medicine to shore up your cards after they're dealt.  Or at least that's my approach.  

So those were my points.  I guess.

[Forseegood]

I feel these are new territorys and even the renown experts are in debate, etc, and know Then a huge Nurses Study supposedly debunked these "myths" and it was found that perhaps estrogen replacement, and certain hormones were not so great, and could cause more harm then good...so hordes of women started leaving off estrogen replacement ( I know because many of my animal rescue friends are trying to rescue many of these mares that the premarin companies can no longer use, and they are auctioning them off for slaughter)

but now, some studies are finding that indeed, some of these women *did* benefit from estrogen replacement, though many didn't, so maybe it has to do with changing treatment protocols for some women.....and some women should just leave it off entirely....and so it goes...if all these issues were indeed solved, then all doctors and scientists and professionals in these fields would agree on everything....yet we know that's far from the case...

we all are just not alike in the way we respond to many of these diseases, influences of all kinds and other criterion...what maybe true for one person, isn't necessarily true for the next..we're not widgets, the human mind and body are just far too complicated...guess that is why there are all these conflicting studies, etc...they make indications for the most part...I think everyone on this thread have made some very valid points that may seem contradictory, but not necessarily.... and indeed it's a very interesting discussion..but are these issues solved and put away? not to my mind...maybe years from now but we aren't quite there yet...

[Forseegood]

don't know if it was me, but some stuff was edited out of my post, perhaps it's for the best..lol...

[jmjm530]

I stopped smoking over 20 years ago. I have no doubt that had I continued I would have ended up minimally with a heart attack by now, as is the custom for males in my family. Same with weight and diet although there certainly could be improvements.

A good friend, on the other hand -- same age -- has been smoking since his teens, eats whatever he wants, is overweight, doesn't exercise, is almost never sick, and has a cardiac lipid profile I'd die for.  I believe his father also smoked until he died well into his nineties.

Yes, genetics is a big card.

-- Jim

[Myown]

don't know if it was me, but some stuff was edited out of my post, perhaps it's for the best..lol...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HAHAHA!! You're so funny. Soooooooo, post the stuff that was 'edited' and see if it happens again. If you said anything crumby about me - forget it - don't post it. LOL

[susan400]

Ok, okay, I admit it, it's all my fault I didn't get SVR because I'm a grumpy middle aged broad and I didn't go around jumping for joy on all my treatments.  There, I've confessed.  So, if I paste a smile on my face and I walk around giggling and meditating, I'm going to get SVR?  Hey, maybe I need to try that next?  Sorry, I don't meditate well, can't sit still very long to do that, but I do make daily prayer part of my life.   Susan

[merryBe]

yes, thank you! Grade 1 stage 3/4, some stetosis/fibrosis/bridging and spleen also enlarged,
I've noticed it doesn't allieviate much of the left side liver pain. (the part they didn't biopsy even though that's where all my pain is). It seems to come and go on it's own umpteen times a day, with only mild relief from Ultram.

Ultram only mildly helps my bent spinal cord and 4 ruptured disc injury as well.
The trouble there is, muscle relaxant/daytime don't mix and so something for muscle knots/aka pain is a must at times.
I Haven't found a "kill two birds with one stone" remedy yet so I resort to a flexeril at least one day a month. also an Ativan 2-3 times a month for the "can't catch my breathe pain"
. However, I abhor having to combine any of these things. Juggling what's safe or not. Should I take this, since the other did nothing dilemnas are even more complex when you factor in whether your liver will metabolize it properly or cause more toxicity.

Most of the time, I'm just trying to ride things out with nada since nothing helps that much, but that's only a healthy choice if you aren't stressing out your heart and adrenals with 7-9 scale pain.

I ended up on the current solutions because of not wanting the oxycontin/morphine they offered me, nor the neurotin due to it's bad rap on the liver (and flat lining the brain according to 2 friends.)

I've always read up (the last 30 yrs.) before taking anything and avoided anything that would hurt my liver, (like steroids etc.)
Ironic then to end up with HCV.

Any suggestions would be welcome. Tylenol and aspirin don't touch the pain at all, of course aspirin is now out of pic for good with HepC; and I'm trying to avoid the whole opiate thing and safe the big guns for if it becomes totally unbearable.

I find that even taking the meds as directed (8 per day) made me painless but too groggy to care about my health or anything alse, plus it can cause seizures...and mask illness....which means you don't seek help....
so I'm only at 1 or 2 pr. day, but it doesn't seem to settle very well whatever nerve in my ribs is being pressed on, At times it feels like a hornet settled in for a few good bites, other times its just a not so dull almost always there, "lie DOWN immediately" to take the rib pressure OFF this organ type pain that motion of any kind seems to stir up. Not fun.

One thing I have noticed is my pain level has been somewhat subdued since going on GH injection therapy.
I think GH must have an effect on natural enchephalins/endomorphines for me to now be getting by on 1/4 the meds even while the disease was progressing,

ALSO I reduced my ALT AST back to normal by cutting back the Ultram, so I'm convinced now this drug is not the best solution either...but what is?????

What do you use or know is good? I'm open to any good suggestions.

[jmjm530]

I'll assume your post was ironic/humor? What the study posted says is that your "grumpy" personality :) had nothing to do with how well your treatment worked. And putting a smile on your face probably won't help matters much.

[merryBe]

boy, I don't know why but they hovered over me the last time now that I am old and ugly, and NOT NOT long ago when I was a hotty. Must be the difference between females on other young females too. I'm not competition anymore so now I'm their baby. Go figure.

Of course when you guys were hunks we were the ones getting the sh.aft while you were the ones getting yours sponged bathed.....so, the scales all balance in the end. : )))))))

I have found that eye contact, a name remembered, even a cheerful when suffering stance will in the end glean more mercy than the opposite. Just a diplomacy for your own cause really.

Come to think of it....I should include a thank you card...(in case you do end up on the same ward later)...can't hurt!!  
Even though sometimes I get really P Od with incompetance especailly;
Gotta give the nursing staff a little forebearance considering they ha
ve to deal with blood, guts, and other less savory juices on a daily basis.

[alagirl]

Yeah, I've seen people who can smoke and who drink like fish and live into their 90's.  My father was not dealt such a genetic hand.  When my blood pressure first went up about six years ago, I immediately went on my little daily pill which keeps it handily under control.  Will my diet, care of my bp, reliance on procrit in order to keep normal blood oxygenation in order to avoid taxing the heart and avoidance of smoking and other excess protect me from the damage to my blood vessels that caused my father a heart attack and other early havoc in his arteries, and caused my grandmother a quadruple bypass three years ago?  I don't know.  I do have high hopes, however.  We'll see how it goes.

[alagirl]

Ok, okay, I admit it, it's all my fault I didn't get SVR because I'm a grumpy middle aged broad and I didn't go around jumping for joy on all my treatments.
------------------------------------------
love it! lol

[Andiamo1]

I don't think emotion plays a part on actual disease progression.  (Unfortunately).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If there is one thing I am sure of, it is that all this is so complicated that none of us know exactly what makes one person more healthy than others.  There have been studies of identical twins where one is perfectly healthy and the other gets autism and other diseases.  There is now some evidence to suggest that our health is a combination of genes and chemicals that influence gene expression.  These chemicals are modified by environmental influences; depression and stress are part of the environment.

This seems more like  a religious debate than a scientific one, since there is evidence that suggests that emotions play a role in our health.  Nothing definitive, but more evidence to suggest that they do than evidence to suggest they don't.

[charm27]

Its mostly genetics I think anyway. If you really look at the "entire picure " does any of it make any sense. No. Everyone I know that took vitamins religiously have all passed in their 60's ironically and sadly. I have not but 2 friends left..4 of them passed from cancer in their 40's and 50's. All my grandparents lived well in their nineties..but their children including my dad all passed by the  time they were 70.
Im a believer that nothing makes any sense...Its called life.

[Forseegood]

anecdotal stories are interesting, but I don't put *everything* down to genetics - but your right, it's all a big soup with lots of factors...

my father doesn't have the greatest attitude, admittedly, (he quit smoking in drinking when he was 45) but he sure does believe in healthy living (golf is his meditation, walking on the greens at sun-up for so many years -  I think it's done him heaps of good)... he eats veggies, fruits, nuts (sounds like Hollywood lol) and lots of beans, hardly ever eats fried food, or a lot of cooked food, or junk food, and a very occasional sweet, just an occasional glass of wine or a beer...he plays golf 4 to 5 times a week, sadly, only 9 holes now, and he mostly walks the course, hardly ever uses a cart...

he still rides his bike to the store to pick up a few things, and drives to the course...he'll be  100 in March...he doesn't move like a little old man, he's much more lithe then that....people think he's years and years younger then he is...he thinks another big reason that he's lived so long and is still so healthy (the  only thing he ever complains of is a little glaucoma and toe nail fungus) is that he hardly ever goes to doctors or takes medications, and he's outlived anyone he went to anyway...lol....

When people tell him it's probably ALL due to his genetics (and of course, some of the reason has to be that) he tells them that all 5 of his brothers and sisters had much more undisciplined lives, and they all died at much younger ages...

so there you go, I do think healthy living greatly improves your chances of living longer and more being more healthy at older ages (what's the use of living to your 90s or whatever if your sick and infirm)  

And there is some cause and effect there, (look at some cultures around the world that routinely live to really old ages, healthily, and what their average lifestyles are...)

though of course not with everybody, with some people it doesn't matter how healthy they live their lives, their genetics are against them, and yes, few things do make sense in this life, I do agree with that....

[DebInDenver]

If anyone hasn't read the books by Dr. Bernie Siegal, you should.  It's all about the mind/body connection.  I found his books to be really helpful in grasping at the fact I had a disease.  He talks about cancer patients, but the message is for anyone.  Here's the url on amazon.com on Peace, Love and Healing: http://www.amazon.com/Peace-Love-Healing-Communication-Self-Healing/dp/0060917059

It does NOT blame the patient, but it does show how our attitude helps our immune systems et al.

[moahunter]

I suspect that attitudes do not effect the elimination of the virus, I don't see any reason why it would. It's a bit like blaming someone for getting cancer because they have been to "negative" in their lives. There are lots of grumpy yet healthy old people out there though, at least, from my experience:-)

I do however, think that attitudes have indirect effects, such as being able to stay with treatment during those hard periods. Side effects may differ a bit as well, especially re depression. I was quite shocked to find out treatment effected me in this respect, as I have never been very depressive (unlike my wife, my optimisim normally cancels out her pessimisim), so some unfamiliar emotions I have had to deal with.

[Myown]

(unlike my wife, my optimisim normally cancels out her pessimisim)
LOL,,,,,,Okay Adam, its all Eve's fault again.

[Forseegood]

please don't get me wrong, cause I mostly like your posts, whether I agree with them or not, you make interesting points...but I think a few people on this thread made the distinction that no one should put "blame" on people for contracting a disease...or that positive thinking would eliminate a virus...I think the study Jim posted was helpful in looking at these issues...I think many people were just making the point that not enough is known on whether bad feelings like free floating continual anger, stress, etc can actually exacerbate certain conditions (particularly   cardiac issues, that seems to be the studied the most in this area) and that attitude changes could possibly help immune issues (constantly dealing with cortisol, adrenalin, etc can't be good for the immune system, although I don't think anyone knows how bad it is either...) But this old saw about blaming patients for diseases is not helpful, and would be counter productive in healing and getting well, one should think....

[Lady Lauri]

Great, interesting thread. Facts, laughs (Susan,LOL!) good points and so on. Unfortunatly my shot day throbbing headache has begun and I am knocking myself out for the evening so would someone (Susan :}, remind me to re-read and post tomorrow? (really!) I'll make a note of it but probably loose the note!

                                                NITE ALL, LL