Milk Thistle, before or after drinking

Is it better to take Milk Thistle before or after I drink alcohol? I have been taking it after I drink, and then again, in the morning. The dosage is 250 mg (Silybum marianum) (seed) (from a 4:1 Extract) Equivailent to 1,000 mg of Milk Thistle.

Thank you

[FlGuy]

Why do you take milk thistle at all?

[HepCBoy]

>Is it better to take Milk Thistle before or after I drink alcohol?

Oh my!

[cuteus]

how about no alcohol and just milk thistle?

[SoCal Lady]

I'm concerned that you appear to believe that milk thistle will repair damage to your liver as a result of excessive intake of alcohol.  If you are drinking responsibly, you are having a beer (or two),  or a glass of wine (or two) with food.  If you are a young male drinking often as a form of recreation, you may be doing damage to your liver that no herbal supplement can make up for.

Sorry if you didn't want a sermon, but my 22-year-old son went camping last weekend and when he came home I asked what he had had for dinner the night before and he said: "Popcorn, licorice, and vodka".  I knew he wouldn't receive a sermon well from mommy, so I'm giving it to you, Jarod.  I hope you understand....

[Kalio1]

Milk thistle is not an antidote for drinking. Do you have Hep C? If so you can not drink alcohol at ALL with Hep C. Taking milk thistle won't help you in the least if you have Hep C and continue to drink. There is no proof milk thistle does you any good eve if you do not have Hep C, I was told it didn't "help or hurt" your liver.

[l-horn]

I know this is gonna get some people going BUT, I've read this from more than one source and apparently there is some truth to it:

" Coffee even offsets some of the damage caused by other vices, some research indicates. "People who smoke and are heavy drinkers have less heart disease and liver damage when they regularly consume large amounts of coffee compared to those who don't," says DePaulis. "

Take it for what it's worth. I wasn't a coffee drinker, till I read about this. Now I drink two - three cups per day.


http://www.webmd.com/content/Article/80/96454.htm

[Poppea]

Alcohol, I'm sure we are all aware, requires your liver to work extra, extra-hard b/c of how it metabolizes. It's worse than anything else you could consume including most street drugs, you'd be better off smoking the kind, but obviously many people w/HCV still drink. I always see pics of Pam Anderson drinking/partying & I wonder what her drs must think. Maybe she's chosen the David Crosby approach to Hep C. If I remember correctly, he drank like, alcoholically w/HCV until he got a new liver & there was critisism re: how he was even a candidate for a transplant w/his excessive drinking & some felt he was getting preferential treatment, etc..I think after his transplant he even joked about how he could drink again since he was starting from scratch. What an idiot..
I have been told repeatedly by doctors: no alcohol is any quantity.
Re: milk thistle-if it really was all that helpful, I think there would be more focus on it from Hep C advocacy groups.  

That being said, I'm sorry but what's the story w/coffe being good for your liver? Doesn't caffeine have to be metabolized in the liver like any other drug? I cut down on coffee b/c I thought it can't be good for my HCV. How much coffee is supposed to be beneficial? What about tea/cola are they good too?
Lisa

[SoCal Lady]

(from Hepatitis C Info Center):

While a recent study states coffee reduces the risk of alcohol-related cirrhosis but has no effect on cirrhosis caused by Hepatitis C, there is research indicating that moderate coffee consumption provides several liver-related health benefits.

[l-horn]

I'm not sure caffeine is what gives the positive affects. Like antioxidents and red wine, it's not the alcohol, it's the grapes and in fact grape juice ( better be careful here before I get a 'this is not about GRAPE JUICE' ) has the same affect as red wine in producing anti-oxidents. So, I believe, that in this case it has to do with the coffee bean and not specifically caffeine, and you could derive the same benefits from drinking decaf. At least, that's the way I heard it.

[jmjm530]

Your're right with the coffee study because no such benefits were found with Tea for example. However, that doesn't necessarily mean decaf will have the same effect since it is processed differently ands probably wasn't studied.

As to alcohol, don't think there's anything conclusive yet where the benefit comes from. I've heard the grape thing as well, but also heard the beer is just as protective as wine, and of course no grapes in beer. What has been suggested are an association between alcohol consumption and higher hdl (good) choleterol, enhance clotting, and antioxidants. Most of which seem to be a direct result of the alcohol itself except for the antioxidants which are found in certain wines and beer.  

-- Jim

[mremeet]

Of course you shouldn't be drinking, but why not take it before and after?

[Kalio1]

The question was about milk thistle, not coffee.

[l-horn]

Yeah, I can read. But clearly the question was referring to offsetting the effects of alcohol. There is evidence that coffee does just that. If you don't like the info, disregard it, ummmkay ?

[Kalio1]

I agree with you and would add that anyone who has liver damage should not drink alcohol AT ALL, not even moderately. The studies showing moderate drinking is OK or even beneficial do not apply to those with liver damage even if they don't have HCV, they still have a damaged liver.
It never ceases to amaze me how vehemently people will defend drinking ( especially here in a support forum for people with hepatitis!)even after they have faced having HCV, it just shows how important it is to them to continue to drink at least some amount of alcohol and that is a sign of alcoholism.

[cuteus]

I guess that would be me! I forgot! but, wait, this is a milk thistle thread, that is the first phrase in the title!

[jmjm530]

Here's some commentary of the Monto study previously posted with some commentary from the esteemed Cleaveland Clinic:

http://www.clevelandclinicmeded.com/hcv/litreview1.htm (fifth article down)

Some exerpts:

"...Conventional wisdom in the field of hepatitis is that alcohol and viral hepatitis B or hepatitis C simply do not mix.... This advice is based on a number of studies from the late 1990s, which show a clear association between alcohol intake and the degree of fibrosis on liver biopsy....

...Most of these studies, however, use a rather high intake of alcohol (eg, 40 grams per day) as a threshold for the definition of drinking....

...The results (of the newer Monto study)were surprising. Overall, very little effect of alcohol intake on degree of fibrosis was identified. Only the highest amounts (more than 50 grams per day) of alcohol intake were positively associated with fibrosis...

...What does this mean for our patients with HCV? It seems to this reviewer that the stern warnings we have previously given about the possible dire consequences of even modest alcohol intake now must be tempered. Alcohol abstinence may be the safest course of action, but an occasional drink appears not to harm the liver in those infected with HCV."

[jmjm530]

Good try. Repeat after me. I am an alcoholthreadacholic.

[mremeet]

I drank my fair share as a teenager and all through my twenties. Even 36oz beer bongs at times, and later plenty of "maintenance" drinking (i.e. up to a 6pack/day) during the tougher times of my life. And I even continued to drink moderately after being diagnosed with hepC in my 30's. I was scared to death to get my first biopsy, I thought for sure there would be significant damage, maybe even cirrhosis. But it didn't happen that way. I was about an F1 after having HCV for 18 years, and I recently had another biopsy which said I had not progressed any further after another 5 years (and I drank moderately off and on in that time as well). Clearly, at least in my case, if alcohol was THAT synergistically harmful when combined with HCV, I would be in much worse shape.

Of course this doesn't mean the same behavior wouldn't have affected someone else differently and in a much more harmful manner. But I've met others like myself who weren't exactly "allergic to beer", especially when they were young, and they have minimal liver damage too after many years of infection. And also of course I'm not suggesting anyone with HCV should be drinking, especially if they have any real liver damage.

As far as milk thistle is concerned, I think there's a reasonable body of research at this point that suggests milk thistle can definitely protect the liver from certain external poisons/toxins. There are documented cases where MT has saved the lives of people who had ingested the deathcap mushroom, a poisonous fungus lethal to the liver. They've also shown that rats given carbon tetrachloride (or "CCl", an acute liver toxin) were protected and recovered via milk thistle treatment. More recently there was also a small animal study where baboons were given ethanol (drinking alcohol) over the course of a year or two. Some of the monkeys were given milk thistle, while others were not. Their livers were then examined at the end of the trial, and it was found that the MT group fared better. The human evidence is sketchier, because no controlled studies can be performed on humans for obvious ethical reasons. There is some data on surveys conducted with alcoholics, but I don't believe that data showed a strong correlation with MT being protective. But the validity of the study was questionable because of the poor study compliance inherent with alcoholics.

Bottom line is that I believe MT can and does protect the liver against certain external toxins, possibly including alcohol to some degree. However, to my knowledge the protective qualities of MT have not been clearly demonstrated to provide a similar measure of protection against viral attack, which harms the liver via an entirely different mechanism when compared to toxins. The evidence is loose and contradictory on MT providing a significant benefit for those with HCV. If it does help, it appears to be a subtle aid.

Although I will say that I did see my liver enzymes come down a notch (i.e. maybe 10-20 points) after starting to take MT. And in the past five years I always take it before and after drinking any alcohol. It costs about a dollar a day to take quality MT, I think the evidence is strong enough to warrant an outlay of that kind of cash, especially if there isn't a downside (which there isn't).

[l-horn]

I've never heard that about beer. I would read up on it, but since I don't drink beer or wine ( or anything else with alcohol these days ) it's not something that's relevent to ME. Not to say it's not to others. All I know is, if Jack Daniels had any positive affect on one's health whatsoever, I'd be the healthiest man alive. Unfortunately for me, that has proven NOT to be the case but rest assured, if any evidence appears to the contrary, I'm back in business.

As I stated in my first post here, my VL went down from 18 million to 311,000 in two months, which I attribute to cessation of alcohol. ( Mind you, I drank a LOT of JD. Every day, all day. ) My doc says the alcohol was suppressing my immune system.
If I thought for one minute MT or caffeine would do the trick...


Realistically,the problem with 'Milk Thistle' or 'Coffee' as being some protection against the effects of alcohol or smoking is a dangerous road, imho. We all know why without having to go into THAT, I'm sure. If I thought coffee would do the trick I'd be the most wide awake drunk on the planet and I'd eat Milk Thistle like cereal.

There's an idea: Milk thistle cereal with coffee instead of milk.

PS My apologies for any AH'ish response on this thread or any breaking of protocol.

[Myown]

As far as I'm concerned...if something is on a list that can cause a liver problem, as alcohol is, skip having the small portion also,..like that one beer. Consuming a lot of alcohol will kill you swiftly, if you have liver disease. A little amount of alcohol, such as one beer, will kill you a little slower. Poison is poison. Anyone on this board should consider changing their perspective on alcohol, if they want to become or remain healthy. Believe me, nobody loved alcohol more than me, but now I view it as the enemy,(new perspective) right up there with the virus. They're both enemies of our bodies AND MINDS.

A "new perspective," about anything takes a re-training of your mind. Doesn't always happen over night, but, the new thought pattern towards alcohol takes more work for some.It was real hard for me, believe me. But its been years since I have had a drink.

If someone told me I could only eat spinach and drink water the rest of my life to keep my liver healthy and live long, I would. Food and alcohol stopped being my means of happiness many years ago.People that say they like to drink only because they like the taste are not being honest with themselves usually. I used to try to convince myself of the same ****. I want this virus to go away and stay away and I want to baby my liver, feed it beets or whatever it wants...no more long island ice teas, those days are behind me.

[Snookmiester]

Again, seems people love to "selectively" process medical data and research.. I could follow this article with 10 or more stating similar conclusions, and one even stating that Milk Thistle is <strong>SO</strong> effective, that patients undergoing combo tx are advised not to take it as it effects the livers ability to metabolize the meds.. It just amazes me how people continue to make false uneducated statements, based soley on personal opinion instead of documented data.
Basically, if you don't think it helps, don't take it..But if you do, do your research into correct dosages and purity of the substance..  

<a href=" http://hepatitis-central.com/mt/archives/2006/04/milk_thistle_ex.html>Milk Thistle</a>


Also, again many seem to state that alcohol is absolute no? Funny, that most of the more respectable Dr's seem to think it is okay...Along as in moderation, and not overtaxing the liver with excessive amounts on a daily basis.. I was told 1-2 drinks daily, and not to exceed that.

[jmjm530]

First, while you will get many strong opinions on the subject of alcohol with this discussion group, there are no doctors here.

My liver specialist allowed me moderate alcohol consumption prior to treatment and after treatment but not during treatment.

My understanding is that the reason some doctors forbid alcohol entirely is because: (1) they are relying on older studies from the 1990's that studied the effects of HEAVY drinking, or (2) They have had bad experiences in the past when recommending light drinking only to find out that their patient could not control the alcohol.

Here's a more recent study that basically says light drinking will not harm the liver but heavy drinking will. http://tinyurl.com/l7c8h  

I cannot emphasize enough that heavy drinking is bad for the liver and if you have ever had a drinking problem in the past, you should probably never take even one drink.

So while some think milk thistle may be protective for the liver, the jury isn't in. As posted, coffee now appears to have a protective effect as well.

Since we really don't know your HCV status, etc, it's hard to go beyond this. My suggestion if you have any liver problems is to see a liver specialist (hepatologist) and ask him these questions.

All the best,

Jim

PS I promised never to post in another alcohol thread (as another member who just posted did :) ) but I guess alcohol is addicting, the threads I mean. LOL.

[durka]

there are studies showing that in higher doses, milk thistle is effective in completely protecting the liver and kidneys during chemotherapy medication treatment. As far as repairing damage  done to the liver and kidneys, the liver has the ability to repair itself with the proper diet and stuff, but the kidneys do not repair once damaged. Milk thistle will protect kidneys from further damage and has the ability to reverse liver damage. This wont happen overnight though.

[AKHepper]

Here we go with another ancient thread, I wonder how long this one will go?

First off, the guy never stated he had hep c, but that didn't seem to stop people from jumping all over him.
Maybe he was just looking for a way to keep a healthy liver somewhat healthy and still live like a normal person.

[Magnum]

If you're making Margaritas and using two shots of tequila, some lime and mix, it's best to put the milk thistle in at the same time. This will prevent liver damage (not)

Magnum

[Trinity4]

Or you could just throw caution to the wind and mix up a a firefly  ( 2 measures vodka, 4 measures grapefruit juice.  Substitute milk thistle for the 1 tsp of grenadine.
Pucker up!

[GoofyDad]

"It's like pouring gasoline on a fire!"

I thought I'd get that one out of the way early, just to save anyone else the trouble.......

[paul14]

  The only reason I am alive is because I stoped drinking 16 yrs ago! If you have hep c and drink  you are killing yourself

[Marcia2202]

wow... almost 3 years later and Jarod still hasn't gotten back to the thread... makes me wonder what happened to him...  ;-)

Maybe too much MT

[AKHepper]

must not have worked!

[animalfilter217]

I just don't get the majority of these responses.  Everyone knows alcohol does liver damage, and everyone knows that drinking alcohol with HepC is a double whammy and even worse.

The question was whether milk thistle could reduce the damage and the answer is maybe.  Same goes for coffee.

Logic says if coffee and milk thistle seem to have protective qualities on the liver then yes, you should take them.  It might not help - but then again - it may!

Does it give you a license to drink like a fish, no.  And ultimately, you'll pay the consequences for doing so...  But if it *might* help - why not do it anyway - it certainly can't hurt.

Duh.

[Stonebreaker]

I just want to post here and say that you're all a bunch of complete idiots(save for the last fellow who was obviously at this thread to respond to the question rather than get on a soap box)! He wanted to know if the benefits of milk thistle are lost when the alcohol enters the blood stream, or if taking milk thistle after drinking helps facilitate alcohol excretion.  People search google for answers and you all just wasted my time with a bunch of lectures for someone who doesn't care.  Why waste your breath, waste my time, and clog up the google search?

[mikesimon]

Sorry that your time was wasted.
That was last year and we all have learned a lot since then.
If you're that interested post a question and you'll see how much we've changed.

Mike

[Hippiegal]

How much Milk Thistle is suggested? Is there a particular brand or can you get any kind you want? I am currently taking something I found in the drug store called Natures Bounty Milk Thistle 250 mg x 3 a day.

Is this enough? Can you recommend the right kind & right dosage for optimal benefit?

[nygirl7]

Your right Michael I'm absolutely brilliant now as compared to then - thank God so much time has gone by that our brains have grown due to all the milkthistle and booze shakes we have had!

[Magnum]

I would take it before, during and after if I drank alcohol, but seeing that I'm in the right frame of mind and want to live, I would just take the milk thistle. But if you do have a death wish, just forget the milk thistle...

Magnum

[mj6000]

I'd like to add that death wish list people who smoke and have poor diets as well. We all should set our goal to live to 100.

[copyman]

You should change your name and replace stone with "Ball". LOL

Seriously if you came here thinking people would say it is ok to drink if you take milk thistle then you are the idiot and wasted our time.

If you need an answer then here it is: Take 4 milk thistle tablets after your 4th drink.

Good luck

[Diane12855]

You really should look at the date on the post before you post a comment. You were insulting a bunch of people who aren't even here anymore.

I'm hoping it was just Riba Rage, and if so, we forgive you.... next time though... please check out the date... it is right at the top of the post.

[mikesimon]

Is Milk Thistle a buzz kill?
No one ever addresses that issue.
I am going to weigh in and give my opinion:

No, it is not!  

Hey, what year is it anyway?  (ls)

Mike

[Marcia2202]

Wow 4 years later we are still discussing Jarod101's post.

and someone is getting all worked up about it....

[mikesimon]

Well, why wouldn't we be?
It is a very important issue and it never grows old or loses any of its luster.
Mike

[nygirl7]

As neither do we Michael, neither do we!

[copyman]

well at least I got to see some old names I haven't seen in awhile. I especially miss jim. Many members here have helped me but jim was there right in the beginning when I found out and was devastated. He was great and one of the most knowledgeable people I have ever met in regards to HCV. He actually was one of the people that told me to wait for the new drugs. I was going to wait but then ended up in a Telaprevir study where I got the real drug. The rest is history..........

[mikesimon]

Yes indeed.

[Trinity4]

Maybe Stonebreaker had a hangover and was in a bad mood because the milk thistle didn't help facilitate alcohol excretion.

If you're still listening Stonebreaker I'm proud and honored to be in the company of all these wild and crazy idiots.

Trinity

[Trish77]

Personally, I've always thought it's toilets and urinals that facilitate alcohol excretion.  Then again, like the fellow who was relieving himself against the wall downtown today, the excretion facilitation instrument seems to depend on how much alcohol one has increted.  Sometimes upchucking is extremely efficient, just slightly imprecise and occasionally chunky.  Thus lending to the phrase "blowing chunks".

[R Glass]

Sorry to waste your time. This should fix you up.

“  Used daily, these supplements replace any lost B vitamins, help rebuild the liver, and provide an extra boost of energy. You can also add burdock root and milk thistle extract to the enema. Use only alcohol-free liquid extract and 5 drops of each to the enema solution. This will help to cleanse the blood and the liver. “

http://www.best-home-remedies.com/alternative_medicines/enemas.htm

[Trish77]

Wow.  A method for every orifice.  

[R Glass]

  Who knows, you may be able to crush Milk Thistle into powder form and snort it. Just be sure not to share the straw. Give us a little time Stonebreaker and we should get you fixed up. Keep in mind, we are not doctors and we suggest you discuss any method with your doctor before trying them. But I suggest The Milk Thistle Enema.

[IMstacie]

I think a little colon cleansing would do the trick.  Sounds like you need to pass some of those stones.

[Marcia2202]

Priceless advise!

[bamdog]

I have a homeboy that swares by the milk thisle he never gets a hungover and say he take at 4pm and b4 bed.  

good luk!

[orleans]

Ahhh! nothing like a stroll down memory lane! Maybe I can get this thread going again. WHAT about SVRers? Are they allowed to throw down a couple of home brewed beers? If so should they pop a couple of MTs? Before or after? It is great to see some of the "old timers" names again, I must say. The good(bad!) ole days. jerry

[James10500]

This has got to be the funniest all time MT thread.  How people come up with this stuff I'll never understand.