Milk Thistle

[Fubarcat]

Does anyone continue on milk thistle while on meds?  I take milk thistle and lecithin.  I forgot to tell my MD as I've been taking both for over a year now before I decided to go on the meds and I continue to take them.  Any thoughts on whether I should continue or not?  (When I told my doc a year ago that I wanted to see if the milk thistle and lecithin would clear the virus, he rolled his eyes at me as if to say "Whatever".   But I still think that's why my viral load always stayed so low - below 900,000 - even before I got on the meds.  A year later, my viral load was down to 685,000 without meds, but he convinced me to go on the meds because my inflammation is Stage III).  Decisions, decisions.  Sorry for all the personal info.  I'm new to this site and will try to stay on track!  Thanks for any responses.

[Tallblonde]

I posted this recently, but you probably didn't see it.  Indiana University is currently conducting a clinical research study involving people with Genotype 1 with mild liver disease.  It includes giving one group Milk Thistle and Vitamin E, along with their combo treatment.

Here's a link that will tell you more:

http://medicine.iupui.edu/ctp/trials/HepC.htm

Susan

[Wireboltman]

I was taking milk thistle, lecithin, and alpha lipoic acid for a couple months before treatment started. My dr. told me to stop because of possible drug interaction. I did as told because I figured why compromise (or possibly compromise) the treatment and go through feeling like **** for six months. Didn't seem worth the risk to me.
If the treatment doesn't work, I've already done a fair amount of reading about alternative methods also. That's what I'll be doing next should it come to that.
One thing at a time is how I feel about it. You probably should tell your dr. everything that you're taking. It's in your best interest.

Good Luck,
Dave

[Tallblonde]

From:  heprandi7@a...
Date:  Sat Sep 8, 2001  10:36 pm
Subject:  Milk Thistle: Miracle or Malarky?


Milk Thistle:Â
Miracle or Malarky?

Written by:  Heidi Gennaro, RD
Your HepatitisNeighborhood Dietitian

> Herbs are selling like hotcakes these days; and why shouldn't they be? In an
> age of modern medicine, modern conveniences, and modern lifestyles,
> something inside all of us longs to find answers buried deep within
> ancestral secrets. Searching for the cure ourselves feels like a relentless
> and passionate pursuit...especially when "they" are telling us there is
> just no cure. The burning question for all of us remains: is milk thistle
> one such miracle herb, or just more hype from suppliers who
> are seeking consumer dollars.
>
> Milk thistle is one such herbal remedy touted as a liver disease wonder
> drug.
>
> But is it really? In Germany they think so. In fact, the rather tall and
> prickly-leaf plant has been used for centuries to treat liver ailments up
> until about the twentieth century. According to Varro Tyler, PhD, noted
> American authority on herbal remedies, and author of The Honest Herbal and
> Herbs of Choice, it was German scientists who began an intensive study of
> the fruits of this plant just 25 years ago. What they discovered was a
> mixture of three different flavonolignans as the active ingredient, which
> they collectively named silymarin.Â
>
> Silymarin was found to exert potent liver protectant properties. One such
> property is liver cell membrane protection from the entry of toxic
> substances. In other words, silymarin acts like a potent antioxidant,
> preventing free radical and toxic damage to the liver (see Food Market
> nutrition article, Aisle 1). In fact, the silymarin in milk thistle is many
> times more potent than Vitamin E in terms of protective antioxidant
> activity!Â
>
> The second most exciting property of silymarin is the regeneration of new
> liver cells. What that means is that there is an increase in production of
> new liver cells to replace the old damaged ones. Today, because of this
> research, milk thistle is often prescribed by German doctors as a
> supportive treatment for hepatitis, usually along with interferon.Â
>
> As far as human study trials go, silymarin has demonstrated positive health
> effects in people suffering from chronic hepatitis, as well as cirrhosis,
> fatty liver infiltration, liver damage resulting from alcoholism of
> exposure to liver toxic chemicals, and bile duct inflammation. In fact, the
> only antidote for poisoning from the deadly mushroom called Amanita (death
> cap) is silymarin.Â
>
> Many of these studies were conducted by European scientists, and have
> passed the scrutiny of American scientists as well. According to Stephen
> Piscitelli, MD, despite a few study limitations, such as small sample
> sizes, "silymarin does appear to be more effective than placebo for viral
> hepatitis, as well as hepatitis caused by toxins and alcohol."
>
> That's the good news. What is the downside to taking milk thistle? First,
> the assurance that what you buy from your local health food store,
> pharmacy, or grocery store really contains what it claims on the label.Â
>
> Unfortunately, because of loose government regulations, many are getting
> away with selling supplements that don't contain any or all of the â??marker
> compound" that makes the herb effective (in regard to milk thistle, it must
> contain 70% to 80% of silymarin). Some supplement brands have been tested
> in independent laboratories and found to contain none of the herb or marker
> compound! That's scary. Know what brands you can trust.Â
>
> According to a July 1999 article in Environmental Nutrition, their thorough
> research and discussion with experts allowed them to compile the following
> list for reputable herbal supplements: Celestial Seasonings; Eclectic
> Institute; Enzmymatic Therapy/Phyto Parmica; Gaia Herbs, Inc.; Herbalist &
> Alchemist; Herb Pharm; Indena; Lichtwer Pharma; Nature's Herbs (Twin Lab);
> Nature's Way; Pharmaton; Warner-Lambert; Whitehall-Robins (American Home
> Products). I highly recommend also that you check with www.consumerlab.com
> to find out the results of their independent laboratory tests on various
> herbs and supplements before you buy.
>
> Another downside is possible mild allergic reaction to milk thistle.
> According to Nurses Drug Alert, 23(7):51, 1999, M.J. Powers & Co.
> Publishers, a 57 year-old woman was found for two months to be suffering
> from weakness, watery diarrhea, nausea, and abdominal pain shortly after
> she would take her self-prescribed capsules of milk thistle. The symptoms
> stopped after she stopped taking the herb. Whether or not it was an
> allergic-type reaction, a contaminant in the supplement, or the side-effect
> of the herb itself is not known. No serious side effects of deaths have
> ever been reported with humans taking milk thistle. A few cases of
> intestinal upset with larger doses has also been reported.Â
>
> Can milk thistle interfere with other drugs? Unfortunately, that question
> remains unanswered. At this present time, no negative interactions have
> been reported. Other herbs such as St. John's Wort, willow bark, dandelion,
> ginseng, yohimbe, chamomile, gingko, ma haung, natural licorice, and more
> have reported drug-herb interactions with certain medications. As always,
> your best bet is to inform your physician of any and all herbs and dietary
> supplements you may betaking.Â
>
> What's the final fair wind on milk thistle? It's probably safe to take, and
> can likely work along with your primary treatment for hepatitis as a
> supportive treatment. Just be sure you purchase milk thistle from a
> reputable source. Above all, remember to avoid the temptation into "magical
> thinkingâ??. Milk thistle is NOT a cure for hepatitis C. However, it does
> appear to be another good weapon in the fight.
>
> Onward truth seekers! Bon appetite'.Â

[Martee]

When I started treatment about 8 months ago, I asked my doctor if I could continue taking milk thistle.
I guess it depends on the physician. Mine encouraged me to continue taking it and he also increase my dosage of vitamin E from 400 mg. daily to 800mg.
I've been taking both every day among some others.

[Anna_R]

I've been taking Milk Thistle, Liquorice Root, Super Antioxidant Formula (Vit. E, Vit. C, Beta Carotene, Selenium) for 2 years now. I have had Hep C for about 8 years now, however, when I had all my tests done including liver biopsy, the doctor was suprised to find no damage to my liver. My virus count is very low, my ALT is elivated slightly, but overall, the damage has not been dramatic. A month ago I decided to start my treatment (Pepasys & Ribavirin), so far I am not feeling too bad, but I continue taking my Vitamins amd Milk Thistle. I think if the supplements have helped me so far, they are not gonna cause damage now, when my liver needs all the help it can get to beat Hep C?

[britgirl]

I was also told not to take it when I was on tx, but I think that was because it was a clinical trial.

[jonihs]

My Doctor says patients who have cirrhosis should not take Vitamin E because, even thiogh it might help heal the liver, if you bruise or bleed it most likely will make it worse.     Joni

[couchpotato]

What?????????? My husband takes Vitamin E, he has cirrhosis, and absolutley no doctor has told him to stop. (He also has platelet problems). Do you have any clinical research data or any other information that says the same thing? I'd be interested in reading/ learning more. God, sure wish these doctor's could get all their information straight and pass it along to ALL their patients. Now what does he do, stop or carry-on with it? As for milkthistle, he was told to carry-on with that one, why would some other doctor suggest going off of it during treatment. So many conflicting advice, whose does a person follow???

[Honey15637]

I agree with you...Its crazy that we can't get the same answers from everyone on what to take or not.  It seems like each doctor has their own idea.  I had read alot about milk thistle and even ordered some before taking tx.  However, once starting treatment...I decided to stick with multi vitamin, no iron, vitamin c and vitamin e.  At this time I am passing on milk thistle as there is not enough studies of this combined with the tx as to how much it helps.  I think after I get off tx, then I may decide to take the milk thistle.  Everyone has their own idea about this and I guess you can only make an educated guess between reading and good common sense on what is best for your body.  haha And then pray...you make the right choices!

[Galen]

Here is my link to a warning about milk thistle and other medications.  http://www.hcvadvocate.org/hepatitis/hepC/mthistle.html

"A Warning about Milk Thistle and Drug Interactions

The seeds of the milk thistle plant are commonly used to protect the liver from damage caused by hepatitis viruses as well as alcohol and other substances. Compounds found in milk thistle — sylibin, sylimarin — act as antioxidants and also stimulate the repair of the liver. But now it appears that these and possibly other compounds in milk thistle can have other effects.

Researchers at the University of Pittsburgh have suspected that milk thistle can slow down or reduce the activity of enzymes in the liver. What does this have to do with HIV? you might ask. Well, enzymes in the liver break down many of the substances that we eat and drink, including medications. If the activity of these enzymes are reduced, then drugs remain in the blood longer than they otherwise might. This could lead to having higher-than-expected levels of drugs in the body, causing side effects or intensifying already-existing side effects. Indeed, in recent experiments using milk thistle and human liver cells, the researchers found that relatively small concentrations of milk thistle did significantly slow down the activity of the liver enzyme CYP3A4 by 50% to 100%.

Many medications taken by people with HIV/AIDS (PHAs) — such as protease inhibitors and non-nukes — are processed by this liver enzyme. If milk thistle is taken by someone using protease inhibitors or non-nukes, it has the potential to raise levels of these drugs, causing unpleasant or even dangerous side effects. Below is a short list of some other medications that are processed through the CYP3A4 enzyme. Levels of these medications may increase if taken by people who are also using milk thistle. This list is not exhaustive:

methadone
heart drugs – Tambocor (flecainide), Rythmol (propafenone)
antibiotics – erythromycin, rifampin
anti-seizure drugs – carbamazepine (Tegretol)
antidepressants – St. John's wort, Zyban/Wellbutrin (bupropion), Paxil (paroxetine), Prozac (fluoxetine), Luvox (fluvoxetine) Serzone (nefazodone), Zoloft (sertraline), Effexor (venlafaxine)
antihistamines – Hismanal (astemizole), Seldane (terfenadine)
antifungals – itraconazole (Sporanox), Ketoconazole (Nizoral)
gastrointestinal motility agents – Prepulsid (Cisapride)
ergot drugs – Ergonovine, Ergomar (ergotamine)
anti-psychotics – Clozaril (clozapine), Orap (pimozide)
sedatives/sleeping pills – Ambien (zolpidem), Halcion (triazolam), Versed (midazolam)
lipid-lowering drugs (statins) – Lescol (fluvastatin), Mevacor (lovastatin), Pravachol (pravastatin) and Zocor (simvastatin), Baycol (cerivastatin)
transplant drugs – cyclosporine (Neoral, Sandimmune), ProGraf (tacrolimus)

Milk thistle also has the potential to lower levels of the following drugs:

anti-parasite drugs – Mepron (atovaquone)
sedatives/sleeping pills – Ativan (lorazepam)
hormones – estrogen

The research by the scientists in Pittsburgh should emphasize to readers that simply because a product is "natural" it does not mean it is safe when taken with other substances. This research also shows the need to conduct further research on herb-drug interactions on liver cells as well as in people. Such studies may find combinations of herbs and drugs that can be safely used together.

The Pittsburgh researchers noted that "patients and health care professionals must be encouraged to discuss the use of herbs and be educated about the potential interactions between herbs and drugs." This cannot be stressed enough."

[new-sojourn]

I'm a great beleiver in Milk Thistle and SAMe in addition to mega doses of most vitamins, minerals and supplements.  I cl'ed in 18days nearly 2 yrs ago, after a tainted transfusion in '79.

I used food and liquids as medicine also.  All my blood levels were normal before starting tx, which was 6mo after the dx of hep c.  Everything seems to be fine, except my blood pressure is a little low.

[landfill]

It's hard to do serious research on food or herbal suppliments because there's no standard formulation.  Different brands can vary in makeup so what do you test?  My only experience is that my antidepressant, buspirone, reacts with grapefruit to increase the blood level of the drug so I can't don't eat it.  Three years ago when I was getting radiation for tonsil cancer the oncologist told me not to take any vitamins because there's evidence that they change the cancer's response to radiation in a way that isn't understood.  Even though something has been used in China for 3000 years, it probably hasn't had the scrutiny that our modern drugs have had.

[dazed_and_confused]

I had an approximately 6 month wait before I was able to get an appointment with a Gastro doc after my diagnosis. During that time I did a lot of reading on holistic modes of treatment and such. I stumbled upon some literature regarding Milk Thistle, and its postive effects on the liver, so I began taking that along with Vitamins E, C, and Folic Acid. At the very first meeting with my Gastro, I was told to drop the Milk Thistle, that anything that wasn't in the purest form could actually do further damage to the liver, and even Milk Thistle in the purest form would not help nor hinder. I took the advice.

I don't think that we are being intentionally mislead. I think what we have here is a disease that is pretty much still in its infancy in regards to how to handle it, treat it, etc. I think the path will become much clearer in the years to come, when the test of time finally comes into play.

Did that make any sense at all? LOL!