Nail and Hair Salons should they Autoclave instruments?

[B-bunch]

Hi everybody,
Here's a question.....
Since the HepC virus can live for sooo long outside the body and takes about 45 minutes to kill in undiluted bleach...and even then my doc said not always kills it.

Don't you all think Nail and Hair Salons should have to autoclave their instruments just like surgeons do? Shouldn't there be a law? Why does no one talk about this? My doc says most of his new HepC patients are soldiers, who share razors and buzzcut their hair and newcomers from China (not sure why they have it).

A lot of people don't know they can get HepC from getting their nails done.

Last year before I knew I had HepC, my nail tech clipped my cuticle and it bled a lot then they use this unknown (at least to me) blue liquid in a glass jar to "clean" their scissors and clippers or just wipe it off with a tissue. The next unsuspecting customer could also get their cuticle clipped by the same nail tech and Boom now that poor person gets HepC. Same with getting your hair cut or getting your ears or other body parts pierced.

And it goes on and on and on. Why does the gov't not mandate these places just like they did with tatoo salons?

Anybody?

Peace.
Sharon

[Jimmy1971]

You are absolutely right. Nail and Hair salons could be potential places for getting hepatitis b & C. actually i have been thinking of this for a while. i wish i was educated about these nasty diseases. I blame our goverments. God look after us.  

[Lady E]

I agree. I have recently made the decision not to have my nails done anymore. I don't want to give HCV to anyone else, nor do I want to get it back from someone else if I get cured (due to unsterilized tools). Also, be careful about your razors at home. I've gone to disposables. And even tooth brushes. One day my gums bled pretty bad..it made me think.  I had been keeping my toothbrush in a holder with the rest of the familie's toothbrushes. I now keep my toothbrush in one of those closed, travel holders. It keeps my brush alienated from everyone elses.
OH, & BTW, I threw away the brush that I used on that one day that my gums bled.
Welcome aboard! Grab an oar!
E

[kakatua]

from my assumption (90% sure) got my virus from dentist or sallon

[LindyK]

I agree about the nail salons.  I do not know how I contracted Hep C but I have been thinking about it a lot.  I have 5 piercings in my ears (2 when I eas young, mothers did it in those days) and the other three at a place in a mall in my early 20's (I'm now 51).  But up until about a year ago when I started doing my own nails, I went to the same salon, same person for about 9 years.  Someone else in the salon usually did my pedicure.  I have been knicked several times over the years during a pedicure and even the usual lady who did my acrylic nails (and she is very good) has knicked me a couple of times with their spinning sandpaper thing.  I've never seen those sterilized.  They just put them back in the drawer and pull them out when ready to use on the next person.  I've been wondering a lot about this - and these were people I really trusted because I had never had any kinds of other problems and I always watched them put pedicure tools in their "sterilization machine" after each use.  I tell everyone I know now to rethink using these salons.  BTW - what is autoclave?

[Lady E]

An autoclave is a sterilization machine used to sterilize all the tools for surgery, etc.
It really bugs me too that the nail salons just use the Dremel (sanding) tools on everybody. I went to one nail salon who gave everybody their own nail files & those little spongey things that they use to buff the nails & Kept them in our own personalized container. Sure, that's all great, but what good does it do if they are using the same sanding tool on every customer? The sanding tool is usually the culprit that knicks the cuticles.
BTW..my nails look like **** right now..I'm doing the transition of quitting the salon.
E

[aiuta]

I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree.  I was a BIG fan of the pedicure, but  haven't gotton one since I was diagnosed.  I do my own toenails now.  It takes forever and it doesn't look quite as good, but I don't care.  Elle Woods herself, the champion of the manicure in Legally Blond, couldn't get me to get my nails or toes done these days, and not even after I am done with treatment-- unless I bring my own tools.  I found a place the other day where you can buy your own tools, so I was pretty psyched about that.  I asked a doctor about this when I recently went to a Hep C public forum.  It may not be as high a transmission rate as some other ways, but it IS a possibity.  Why should our ignorance contribute to more people getting this illness?  I once thought there should be a sign in all salons alerting people of the possibility and publicly encouraging safe sterilization methods.  That would at least raise awareness and (perhaps) precautions.  Thanks for the post, B-bunch.  All my best, Aiuta

[LindyK]

Well get ready - my nails were my greatest indulgence but got to a place where I had to cut back on expenses and well....It's been close to a year and I still have to keep them trimed really short (although I've never had good nails of my own anyway) but now as soon as they grow the least little bit they crack and peel...ugh!  I just keep nail clippers with me all the time.  I try not to think about it too much cause my nails were my pride and joy.  But the good thing is when I had "nails" I wouldn't do any gardening without gloves and now I do even though my nails get very nasty but the gardening (even weeding) is therapeutic to me on the days I feel up to doing it.  I like the feel of the plants and the earth naturally on my hands and fingers.

[FlGuy]

Many people bring their own instruments to nail salons, my wife does.  In addition, I never let the barber use the straight razor for 'edging', as many barbers do.  Even if these situations are 'low risk' you can make them 'no risk'.

[Lady E]

Well, at this point I've got 3 that have broken (& I peeled the acrylic off of those) That leaves 7 that still have the acrylic on them. I WANT to soak them in nail polish remover to remove the remaining acrylic, but my nurse had told me not to use any chemicals on my hair, so I have to assume that soaking my nails for a long time in acetone is probaly a big no-no as well. I guess I'll just have to pick the stuff off one nail at a time. *sigh* I hope I don't have to do any loan closings in the near future, because my hands don't look very professional now.

Hi aiuta!!! I hope you had a nice weekend!!!
E

[NYgirl]

If all the "hoity toities" of the world realized how EASY it would be to get it from the nail salon...you'd see money funneling in towards a cure in aa second!

But most people have NO IDEA that it is so possible and assume it's mostly druggies / ho's that have HepC .

Like with AIDS being a "gay disease" nobody cared very much about it at all until them men started bring it home to their wives.....etc.

IF Congressmen and the like realized that their beloved wives/daughter/themselves could get this disease from a mani or pedicure - I bet it would change things big time.

I laughed like h3ll the other day when a man outside a nail shop tried to give ME a coupon to go in and I said no thank you and he kept PURSUING me about the big sale...I finally said No I have hepatitis but thank you = and he literally turned and almost FLED trying to get away from me. When I a minute before he was trying to pull me into the salon.

[HepCBoy]

>But most people have NO IDEA that it is so possible and assume it's mostly druggies / ho's that have HepC .

Don't know about the "ho's" but its mostly a druggie disease..

[Kalio1]

I was reading the literature from Hep C Awareness day and they put the estimate of how many are infected world wide much much higher than we hear now, which is 170 million. The new estimates put it at closer to 500 million. It shows that clearly people are being exposed in other ways besides from IV drug use to me.
BBunch you got it, why isnt the public being warned? I think one reason is the medical sstem would collapse under the weight of numbers if they tested everyone routinely is one reason. They dang well know it is happening yet the Govt is silent and continues to hold the line that drug use is how you get it, so people dont get tested because they dont have a history of drug use.
I also think we are being exposed in clinical settings and they know it is happening but they have no idea how to prevent it.
New hepatitis viruses are being discovered all the time, Hep C isn't the "newest" one unfortunately. You cant test blood for viruses you cant recognize! time has to go by, people get sick and THEN they are "discovered" Scary stuff. Sure makes me want to stay healthy and AWAY from hospitals (germ factories) and do my own nails! Those little dremel things should be BANNED.
I know those ear piercing guns were taken away from the malls awhile back but think of all the people that had them done back in the day. I think EVERYONE should be tested for this but the stigma stops people from asking their doctors for the test. they fear their doctor thinking that means they have a past IV drug use history. Ugh.

[GrandOak]

HepCBoy: "Don't know about the "ho's" but its mostly a druggie disease.."

Upon what evidence is this matter of fact statement made? Perhaps sheer ignorance?

I'm sure that the millions of health workers and/or transfusion/transplant victims who have contracted it might very well disagree with this statement.

[HepCBoy]

>Upon what evidence is this matter of fact statement made? Perhaps sheer ignorance?

60% is the figure quoted on the CDC website http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/hepatitis/c/plan/HCV_infection.htm which is the lowest figure I have ever seen, still meets my criteria of "mostly" though. . You will note that they also claim that 15% of people are infected sexually, that is simply wrong. But what the hell its the CDC they must know what they are talking about right? Look at the pie chart, would the man in the street be wrong to classify hep c as mainly [at least 75%] affecting sex crazed junkies?


"Nine hundred and twelve cases of newly acquired hepatitis C were identified, representing 2.8% of all HCV notifications for this period. The majority of cases (72%) were diagnosed in people aged between 20 and 39 years. Injecting drug use was reported in the vast majority of cases (93%)"

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/468371


"Among anti-HCV positive individuals aged 25-44 years for
whom a questionnaire was received almost 86% reported ever
having injected drugs, confirming the results of national
laboratory reporting."


http://www.hpa.org.uk/publications/2005/hepC/default.htm

Now bear in mind that Doctors don't just sit on their backside all day swapping stories and comparing tax plans, sometimes they check liver biopsies for talc, yes talc. They find that of those with talc in their livers who denied drug use most of them are liars.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8540508&dopt=Abstract

I think its time we all stopped kidding ourselves. Hep C is a very difficult thing to catch other than via IDVU, especially nowdays with the almost nil risk from blood tranfusions. Now I can hear what you are thinking, what about all the health workers who get needlesticked that must add up to a fair old chunk. The facts are that in the UK in 2004 six [thats right 6] health workers caught hep c via needlesticks.

http://www.hepcuk.info/content/news/story.asp?nid=1&sid=302

When all said and done all we are debating is whether hep c is mostly a "junkie" disease, overwhelmingly a "junkie" disease or almost always a "junkie" disease.

[GrandOak]

Of course the CDC has never been incorrect.  But wait, didn't I just see a post that new figures are shown worldwide infection numbers are now looking to be more like 500 million instead of the commonly reported 170 million?

They also report that less than 4% of the US population is infect, yet samples drawn across the nation are showing that results indicating that 4% or more are being found.

But one can say the 1 out of 3 fits their definition of "mostly" so I guess as lone as one uses vague nebulous terms they can go around making any claim they want and say it fits "their" definition.

But that's OK, just continue to propogate the notion that it's simply a druggie disease and then wonder why it remains the silent epidemic and why research for newer more effective treatments is lacking or why research for a cure is not happening.

[LindyK]

I read this just this morning about who should be tested:

This is the current release of the guidelines from the AGA, published in Gastroenterology (January 2006). MAJOR RECOMMENDATIONS
Screening
Routine screening of all asymptomatic adults, who have a low prior probability of hepatitis C virus (HCV) infection, is not recommended.


Well thanks a lot.  I have the Red Cross to thank for dx Hep C when I went to donate blood.  I have been sick for almost 2 years and have been tested for everything under the sun except Hep C so this is where it has come down to.  I am not in the high risk group and was completely shocked!!  I tell everyone I know to ASK for a Hep C test when they get their routine blood work done.  I am appalled that the recommendation still says those with low probabibility should not be tested.

[pigeonca]

I suspect that the large number of drug users and former drug users who are diagnosed with hep c constitute large numbers because they know they should be tested, and their doctors know they should be tested.  Therefore they are diagnosed.  Those without risk factors are never tested, until they give blood or their ALT goes up.  If everybody in the world were routinely tested, I wonder what percentage of heppers would be druggies.  Not so many, I would wager to bet.

[HepCBoy]

>you imply in your post that those of us who contracted it in a different manner are lying.

No.

That said I guarantee you 100% that not *all* of them are telling the truth though.

I think that all heppers need to accept that the stats  prove that this is largely a disease of drug abusers [UK/USA], those that contracted it by other means need to be aware of that more than us ex-druggies.

There is a sigma attached to hep c , personally I don't think that is because of the drug use profile, I think its because people do tell lies about likely routes of infection. I think many people are faced with a choice of telling the truth or not and some choose the wrong path. I think that damages the entire commuinity.

To my ignorant eye the problem sems worse on the US side of the pond, it seems there are some powerful financial incentives  amongst certain demographics that drive the pushing of "plausible" infection sources.

[Alady1620]

I do not have my nails done at a salon bc of this issue.  I would disclose to my hairdresser if she ever cut me with the scissors.  I do not want to be responsible for spreading this virus.  Those of us who know we have it should really be careful.  I'm sure most of you are.

I have told my friends about the issue with nail salons but they have not heeded my advice.

[Kalio1]

Judging by this forum, I think people are very open and honest about their transmission modes and speak of it freely. It does seem on this site that that is the most common way to contract it. Maybe you are right and people lie, but it doesn't seem that way to me at all. I think people are remarkably open about it here and they often share their stories.

My point is, we have to find those sources and warn people they exist. It isn't as if "they" are out there testing and examining these modes of transmission and keeping data. Far from it. Prisons and rehab centers are where that data comes from, we need more data if 20 - 30% +/- contract it some other way.

[Kalio1]

Although I agree with you that MOST are infected through IV drug use, you imply in your post that those of us who contracted it in a different manner are lying. Sadly, that is the attitude of many doctors also. I have no reason to lie or hide or make up a story about it to anyone and certainly not here in a "room full of strangers" so to speak where no one ven knows me. I did NOT ever in my lifetime use IV drugs. It didn't happen. I was no angel but I didnt ever do that. Many people have the same story. And no, I didn't snort cocaine with groups of people either, I have heard that one too. We have GOT to recognize that it is indeed passed to people n other ways. 6 people were infected ( this is 2005 mind you) in a hospital in No. California. I have a study of a case where a number of patients were infected via their DOCTOR who was HCV positive during surgery. Mayo clinic just came out with  a study I posted here recently that would curl your hair because they apparently KNOW it is happening but have no idea how it is being transmitted to patients. There is a report showing many were infected at Kaiser in No. Cal. in 2000. I read a report recently attributing Hep C to C section births in the 80's and 90's also. Are they all lying? Nail salon solution does NOT KILL HEP C and virtually millions of women visit them. With upwards of 5 million people waling around with it worldwide, how can you ignore the possibilities? This virus can live for 4 days! It can survive bleach! Many barber shops use straight razors even today. You cant tell me all tattoo parlors are safe! The tattoo guns can NOT be completely sterilized or taken apart. There are just too many possibilities with so many people out there who do not know they have it who can be passing it around.
Yes, IV drugs is the #1 way to get it, BUT it is not the only way and to say it is keeps MANY people from testing due to their lack of drug use history. My doctors did not ( and I saw 5 in all) one of them even think to test for it and later mentioned "there was no sign of drug history" as the reason. This is one of the KEY issues/myths we have got to put to rest. We have to educate people about the OTHER possible modes of transmission.

[Kalio1]

that should have said "500 million" not 5 million
500 million is the statistic used in this year's Hep C awareness day info

[pigeonca]

I don't believe you about the needlestick accidents.  Everything I've read indicates that sporadic infection ranges from 5% to 30%.  But most importantly, nobody knows the percentages because nobody is testing large groups of people without regard to "risk factors."  Until that is done we're all just speculating.

What angers me and many others on this forum is that, because of the assumption that IVDU and transfusions are the main causes of hcv, we've been running around for decades with the virus damaging our bodies, and we were never tested.  Had I been tested twenty years ago, I wouldn't have stage 2 fibrosis and all sorts of autoimmune disorders.  More than the stigma of hcv, the failure to test everybody on a routine basis is extremely disturbing, and dangerous.

[HepCBoy]

>I don't believe you

Now I'm a liar :)

Try this link http://www.hepcuk.info/content/news/story.asp?nid=1&sid=302

>nobody knows the percentages because nobody is testing large groups of people without regard to "risk factors."

How large do you want? Try 15,000,000 US blood donors who give at least yearly.

[pigeonca]

Here are just two among many references regarding the rates of sporadic transmission:

http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/chronichepc/index.htm
http://www.emedmag.com/html/pre/gic/consults/071504.asp

[Kalio1]

Maybe in the UK there is some oversight going on, but not here. Here anyone with a business license can open these places up with barely any "credentials" ( if any at all) and there is no verification system checking their ability to keep up the standard of sterilization. No one checks at all.



Elaine,

I have read from several different sources it can live through bleach. To be honest with you, I don't know what kills it. Maybe it is the concentration of the bleach that matters? Time does kill it eventually but it takes days. Most say about 4 days but I have read longer times too. Who knows who is right on that one! Is bleach what you were told to use for clean up?

[HepCBoy]

I hear you.

I just think that until we reach the point where people are open and honest about likely infection routes it will be hard to get the non-IVDU routes indentified. I think throwing up "plausible" but unlikely routes of infection harm that process.

I don't agree with you on the research though;

"Relationship of cosmetic procedures and drug use to hepatitis C and hepatitis B virus infections in a low-risk population."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16871571

[Kalio1]

I don't believe gov. stats are  reliably correct. CDC is way off a lots of things too but it's the best we have. The reporting data as I said is primarily from drug rehab facilities and prisons. In a random sampling of 600 people walking down the street, nearly half of those random people were infected. I posted that link here awhile back. This was not done by the gov. it was done by a private group. My point is, we DONT KNOW nor is a system in place to detect these various modes and how many are being infected and nothing is being done to eliminate the risk. We need to find out so we can remove the risk or at least warn people the risk exists. I say we should begin by having better requirements and checks of tattoo and piercing parlors as well as nail salons, barbers, dentists, and on and on. Who is verifying tht these facilities are not spreading this virus?
NO ONE.

[HepCBoy]

>Who is verifying tht these facilities are not spreading this virus?

Lots of people, see the link in my previous post for just one example.

In the UK it is a notifiable disease, combine that with acute cases [hep b too] and that acts as a decent early warning system of possible current infection routes.

There are an estimated 100,000 needstick incidents in the UK NHS each year, in 2004 resulted in 6 cases of hep c, or 1 case per 16,666 needsticks. Or to put it another way, walk into your nearest hospital pick up a needle, stab it in a random person and then into yourself. If you did that every single day it would take you over 45 years to be 100% sure of being infected. Thats how hard hep c is to catch.

[B-bunch]

Wow. I guess I touched on a good subject.

Hey...here is a question..if you can't get HepC from a needstick then why are there so many doctors and nurses in my HepC Support Group? Hmmm?

I was just at the dentist and told them I had HepC and they said not to worry, we autoclave all our instruments. But what about that plastic suction thing? Then they showed me a jar of this super cleaner newest on the dentistry market and they said "oh this stuff kills all viruses, bacteria etc. So I read the small print and it had a long list of viruses it kills and HepC wasn't on the list...so I said "Well? What about this stuff?" They just looked at me like deers in the headlights abd changed the subject.

B-bunch

[Lady E]

I read the small print and it had a long list of viruses it kills and HepC wasn't on the list...so I said "Well? What about this stuff?" They just looked at me like deers in the headlights abd changed the subject.

Good eye!! I think I would have probably pursued that converstation tho. I bet none of them knew the answer, but I bet they're been reasearching it now!
E