Q: Does anger affect the liver? Discussion

recent convo with an Asian friend of mine stated something like in Chinese medicine, anger is often associated with harming the liver.  I didn't want to doubt this as she also stated a valid reason that Asian med has been around more than modern/ conventional med we have today.  So, i was just curious and i guess i really wanted to ask this question because i am one of those people who get angry/ upset a lot, i've always been like this even before tx.  i'm known for getting angry and keeping it inside of me and it hurts me the most when the ones i love/ trust cause me anger.  Ever since i learned i had HCV, i felt that everytime i got really angry/ disappointed, my liver felt different.

so after my friend brought that up, i went and googled (my usual business with curiosity) the two words:  "liver, anger, harm"  and was just surprised by how many returns i got about the relationship.

Some of you have suggested for me to take AD, but i just don't think i'm ready for AD's yet because i'm not the point where i get uncontrolled.  i grew up like this and i just don't want to add another daily/weekly pill in my life (as if i don't have enough already!!!).  it seems like in our world today, there are medications for EVERYTHING: intermittent explosive disorder (aka. road rage), stress, sleeping, sadness, body-building, anti-smoking, sexual dysfunction, tanning, hairloss, shyness, menstruation, ADHD, obesity, restless leg synd.

Now, obviously, i'm not doubting the conventional med because i'm (apparently) currently on tx!  yay!  and the reason i chose to tx was because i was convinced it can free me from my disease!  And I know that online sources are not (((always))) reliable.  But, I think, that behind all false statements/ stigma, there is a grain of truth that shouldn’t be overlooked.  So,  i'm just going to throw this idea out there just for discussion and see what you all think of this.

And if anything I said offended anyone, i apologize first hand.
Good luck all,
L



My search:

http://www.healingenergetics.com/Sites/a/Pages/Learn/Articles/Articles.aspx?article=Article2
"Liver is the organ most prone to develop Heat due to its dynamic nature of constantly moving and directing the Qi in our bodies. And, we discussed ways to optimize the Qi-moving function of our Liver with diet, lifestyle, herbs, and Qigong exercises.
Another important correlation in Chinese Medicine is that of the Liver and Anger. Anger is a hot, fiery, and volatile emotion. It’s correlation with the Wood Element, therefore, is quite appropriate, as Wood is the fuel for Fire. It is an uncomfortable emotion for all of us because of its volatility – it easily escalates out of control into rage if we’re not careful. Additionally, because of its association with fire and heat, those in the wake an angry outburst can often feel “burned” by it. Yet, it is a necessary emotion that, while often troublesome and uncomfortable, can be used in a very constructive and healthy way if we learn some simple principles that Qigong in particular can teach us. And, by learning and practicing these principles, we can improve our emotional and physical health by managing our anger appropriately. "

http://www.newtreatments.org/Universal_Health_Model.php
this article directly states the keeping anger/ emotions inside of us is harmful for the liver.  

http://www.itmonline.org/5organs/liver.htm
"From Zhang Huang, A Compendium of Illustrated Texts (Tushu Bian), Ming Dynasty:
The liver is associated with wood. It stores the blood and is the home of the hun spirits. Among the seven human emotions, only anger is of an intense nature. It dries up the blood and dissipates the hun spirits. The person who understands the way of nourishing the liver, therefore, never throws fits of anger."

http://www.damo-qigong.net/pathogen2.htm
"excessive anger often stagnates the flow of Liver Qi or induces Liver Qi to rise excessively"

[lalapple]

edit:  wow, i'm so silly "liver, anger, harm" is actually 3 words, not 2.

[epiphiny]

I'm far from an expert in these things but I do know that it is widely recognized and well accepted in 'alternative' medicine circles; naturopathy, homeopathy, Louise Hay for example, that the liver is the organ that stores anger within the body.  It also the reason why when someone is grumpy or tetchy that they are often called 'liverish'.  Note that term is from my grandparents era and they were born in the early 1900's.

It is my experience that when my liver is under stress or pressure I feel more irritable!  I too have had anger issues in my life and your post makes me wonder whether my anger issues may have been related to the HCV.  

Whatever the anger issues are related to it is a great idea to learn how to manage anger, as one of your article says, it can be damaging but if harnessed correctly it can be used for good.  For example when someone gets angry about something they can also be called passionate about something.  And great passion can effect great change.  It's when anger is expressed negatively as abuse and violence that is a great negative force.

Anyway, I know this is outside the conventional medicine sphere but I just wanted to respond to your post.

Epi :)

[CMcH]

I know this TX has thrown me into rages like I have never had before. I thought it was the Riba rage, but maybe the Liver has something to do with it. Stress alone will make you feel run down and then when your run down it is easy to get stressed.

[Proactive]

Does happiness harm the heart?
"However, they must beware that extra anger could do harm to the liver, increased happiness may be bad for the heart, too much fear could hurt the kidney, and increased sadness could impair the lungs"

Are you going to live in an emotional bubble?

http://www.china.org.cn/english/Life/173064.htm

[epiphiny]

Well, if I look at that statement in a non emotional way I can see how all of that makes sense.  Remember there is some 'lost in translation' going on there.  

In this case increased happiness probably means too much euphoria or excitement which could lead to a heart attack or increased blood pressure, both of which are definitely bad for the heart!

In Asian cultures 'happiness' is more translated as contentment, deep satisfaction

It is difficult to apply western logic to eastern cultures and get a corresponding result.  Got to change perspective to grasp it.

[desrt]

The short answer is that there is nothing in Western Medicine connecting anger to the liver (other than the fact that stress stresses your whole system).
The slightly longer answer is that 'Liver Fire' is a fairly safe bet for a TCM diagnosis in the modern world, especially for Americans, given our cr@ppy diet and sedentary lifestyle. These two things often result in 'tongue' and 'pulse' diagnoses corresponding to the TCM syndrome of 'Liver Fire'.
With that said, I've had a diagnosis of "true Liver Fire" (over and above that normally seen) from an old timey TCM practitioneer unaware of my HCV status, pre-tx. Not surprising, as inflammation roughly corresponds to 'Fire' in the two different systems of thought.

[Trinity4]

Seems to me most of experience anger and frustration while treating.  Maybe alot of anger is offset when AD's are added to the mix.  If we were effected dramatically by anger, our liver enzymes would be elevated.  Mine have been within the normal range since treating and I have had some "anger issues" while taking these medications so I don't think anger hurts the liver but it can put a strain on a relationship.
Trinity

[comeagain]

First of all I wanna thank you for posting this very wellf ormulated and good written, and for me an interesting subject.

I´ve had an anger problem most of my life and it runs in the family on my fathers side
all of my three daughters have it especially one of them and its when its turnes over to rage its really a problem, to give you an example normaly I´m a quite friendly soul not that much of a troublemaker, but when the rage sets in I have more then in one occasion managed to scare killers, that was in in my druging time maybe it has saved my life don´t know.

To get to the point I don´t let the anger be inside of me I take it out on others,
at least thats what i thought but thx to this post i´m starting to realise that maybe I do
both.
After been in rage I feel bad in weeks afterwards and it is really like something is burning in my whole body and also in my mind and thoughts, and to understand thats not a healthy state of mind i don´t need any studys backing that up.

My advise to us all who have an anger problem is to stay a way from some people that triggers that anger as much as possible I mean relatives and such during tx, and as towards other people  just dont start an argy both here in forum and at work or in traffic in the shop or wherever we happens to be.

thx again and good luck with tx everyone still treating.

ca

PS counting to hundred never helped me on the contrary its been like counting down a rocket to go of !!! (better leave than stay counting)

[lalapple]

thanks all, i'm getting excellent responses to this discussion.  if seems to me that some of you have suggested that hep could be increasing our experienced anger, that's a new thought because i always felt like vice versa as in anger harms the liver.

epi:  thank you for the explanation.  good point in bring up the idea of passion and anger.  they seem to affect me equally.

cmch:  i agree, stress is a killer.

proactive:  interesting thought, i always thought happiness and laughter was the best medicine.

desrt:  hmm. i wonder if i should go see one of those and get a curious diagnosis, hope it won't be too expensive

trin:  i think if we were dramatically affected by anger, our entire homeostasis would be off balance as it can be dangerous to our overall health.  but a scary thought that anger increases liver enzymes.

comeagain:  good to hear your interest in this matter and great advice. i always try to think positve when i'm frustrated, but sometimes, it just takes time, i guess that's how our bodies work.

[zazza]

If anger harmed the liver, Comeagain would have cirrhosis by now.

[comeagain]

Just wanna point this out, although my liver seems quite undamaged it hasn´t worked as it should and caused other health problems in my body for decades, such as cronic (chronic) fatigue, pain in every part of the body, stiffness, insomnia, joint, bone, severe lowerback pain.
Which all went away almost completely after first tx although not cleared but i was UND and I´m certain it has to do with the HCV infection and I also didn´t clear first tx ( I was much angrier during first)

ca

[Bill1954]

:o)

[lapis]

Great discussion!  I grew up with an angry raging mother, and I was taught that I had to be "good" at all times.  I learned not to express my anger, instead always trying to make the peace, but holding in my feelings at the expense of my own well-being.

I acquired HCV during my first marriage to a man against whom I felt much anger, but powerless to express my feelings to him.  It seemed he always "won" in our arguments, and I grew tired of trying to defend myself.  We were married for almost 20 years when I learned I was HCV+, and my diagnosis was very hard on our relationship.  Maybe it was a "last straw."  I eventually left him.  I had worked in health care, and had chosen areas which were high-risk for exposure to blood and body fluids (L&D, ER).  I worked in the years before gloving was standard, even handling newborns and cleaning up moms with bare hands.  He worried that I would get some "disease" through my work, and damned if I didn't!!  My anger towards him continued for years after we were divorced, and I am just now resolving some of those issues within myself.

I find that now, especially since I'm txing, I don't allow people I love to take advantage of me anymore.  I speak up when they are crossing a boundary, I stand up for myself and for what I need, and in this way, tx has been empowering for me.  

I have studied a little about traditional Chinese medicine, as well as read Louise Hays, and the anger / liver connection makes sense to me.  I've wondered whether my tendency to stuff my anger contributed to my inability to fight off the HCV virus when I was exposed.  

Thanks, lalapple, for the thought-provoking thread.

[Deb_c430]

The chinese call the liver the angry organ, it can affect moods,   Especially in later stages of cirohis.  

Hormones are affected by the liver,  adrenal and pituatarity glands,  the liver is so mighty it filters so much and produces so much.

So imho and from what I have read it can affect moods,  

Great thread!

[lalapple]

lol, you guys are great.  i like how some of your justify your arguments with personal stories.  glad i'm not alone on this topic.

[justme53]

Interesting thread.......

I was thinking about my own dealings with anger issues, how I kept those feelings locked up inside for the longest time until they sometimes exploded in hurtful ways. Another way of dealing with uncomfortable feelings in the past was to self medicate, in my case using alcohol to numb those feelings and exacerbating the liver problem even more. It's been a long process to learn how to voice my thoughts and feelings in a more appropriate and healthy way, whole body healing.
In a strange twist, being dx'd with HCV helped jumpstart the healing and it continues on.........

Pam

[Marcia2202]

I am very fond of TCM and structured my diet according to the TCM diagnose, before I started tx. On tx I have also mainly stuck to it.

I find their approach to medicine highly interesting and TMC has been practiced for 3000 years.

I find it amazing how a good TCM doctor can tell you what's wrong with you, without you telling them first what you are suffering from, by examining your eyes, mouth, and looking at your hands and nails, ears, etc.

I've also had acupuncture for years(either with my own needles or disposable needles)
That helped me especially with my low blood pressure at the time (it has been down to 70 / 40) My acupuncturist could get it up to 110 / 70 within half an hour. This acupuncturist was great, he would be able to stabilize it within a few weeks. He also treated me during all my pregnancies.

He also worked in a rehabilitation center and treated the patients whenever they had withdrawal symptoms. They were helping people get off drugs cold turkey. Really interesting approach.

[bajawoman]

I agree with Justme I was in a tirade over small things would be on the attack or get so mad I would have to close the door and just scream sometimes  Anger was destroying my relationships and customer relations as well  Seems though once I found out I had Hep C
I was more intune to what was causing it all  and could deal with it in a much more rational way Another thing that helped me a lot is

I just started on AD's a while back and I have not had any anger issues that I could not handle. I cannot stuff my anger when it would come up I would lash out at mostly the people closest to me

My daughter and I are getting along so much better now thanks to the AD's this is my most important relationship and I was driving a big wall between us

It did help to know

I have never felt so relieved as when I found out I had Hep C and what was causing many of the terrible symptoms anger being one that I have had to deal with over the years
Imagine feeling  that relieved you have a horrible disease but it took away the stress of having the symptoms and not knowing what was wrong or if I was going insane

best of luck to you  Baja

[epiphiny]

Yes this is a great thread, thanks for starting it lala!

I have often thought that getting HCV actually SAVED my life.  Until the point I was dx'd I was on a crash course for destruction and I have no doubt that had I not changed my lifestyle to manage the hep I would be a very different place to where I am today.  And where I am today is very, very good.

Pam, I also found that treating the HCV started a healing process that has expanded through out the rest of my life and relationships.  Having an illness like this and a grueling treatment like this has taught me compassion for others in life. Before this I didn't understand what it was like to be sick, to have a dis-ease.  

The virus and the treatment has forced me to face issues, change behaviors and examine beliefs and ideas that I had always been in denial about.  Without exception every relationship in my life has improved most especially my relationship with my mother which was my most stormiest.  And, most importantly, my relationship with myself.