Red Palms

[B-bunch]

Hi Everyone,
Does anybody out there have red palms? Mostly starting from under your little finger to bottom of palm the reddest part, but really the whole palm looks mottled. I looked it up and I got two answers. One said "extreme liver damage" and the other said "hormones upset by liver damage"   My liver biopsy said Grade-2, Stage 1, with no necrotic hepatocytes. Slight fibrous portal expansion.It says lots more but didn't want to bore the **** out of everybody. I've had this since 1982 then my doc called it non-A, non-B. I totally forgot about it until I started have thyroid nodules and had to have my thyroid removed last October 2005. I asked the doc to do a liver panel and that's when I found out I had HepC what a shocker. I had to stop the clinical trial of Interferon and Ribaviron week 24 with (0 detectable), due to anemia even with Procrit...but clinical trials are very strict and they can't tweak around and dose reduce or increase the Procrit or ribavirin, so they dropped me. Now just waiting to try again in January. Six month post treatment day is Jan 16th. I started on Dr. Martin Luther King's Bday for luck.
-SBrady

[skyler411]

I have red palms ,thats so' wierd 'i never made a conection hcv and that?when i was pregnant twice two different nurses asked me why my hands were  so red and i blew it off as hormones !! thats before i knew about my hcv. now reading your posts  hopeing its just a symptom and not a sign of sever liver damage
                                          

[GoofyDad]

"Do not forget the most classical sign: black tarry stools."

I always thought that was an indication of having roofers drop in for happy hour.

[merryBe]

I had them before treating, one reason I told my doc I thought I had liver disease...

they are better now...hardly any red left.
but I've been on tx over a year and virus in UND and enyzmes are normal...
so yes, red palms is a sign liver is not well.

mb

[HealersCook]

My husband has hep C/stage 4 liver disease and see a a few different types of doctors.  His Chinese Medicine Doc says the red palms means Congested Liver.  His palms vary between different shades of red and we use it as a gauge of his liver's happiness.  
As far as interferon same thing happened and he went to get the genome type of the hep C read - which was 1-A and was virtually non responsive to ribavirin.  He tried it three different times for three years with no success except anemia.
We do a health regime with diet, supplements, juicing, prayer, alternative healing arts, and Alppha Lipoic Acid.
He has survived 3 years beyond his prognosis of death without a liver transplant.  
If you are interested there is a book called The Alpha Lipoic Acid Breakthrough by Burt Berkson, M.D., PH.D.  
Many blessings to you.  
healerscook

[NDO]

Interestingly, I did not have red palms until I was about 6 weeks into treatment - interferon and ribivin. I thought it was a symtom of the drugs. My palm from little finger to wrist was extremely red where people noticed it. Again, I thought it was the drugs. Since then, I still have redness - but not nearly as noticable.

[Kalio1]

It is hard to explain on the net, but what you describe sounds like what I have too. Google fingernails + signs of illness and you should get a list of the various changes and the diseases they could indicate. Also if the nail itself curls or curves that is another sign. You can also look up Terry's nails.
My Mom is an RN and I remember years ago when I was a child her telling me our fingernails offered many signs of disease if something is wrong but doctors often ignore those signs. Heh.
Hang in there, sounds like you are still struggling with symptoms. My heart goes out to you. Hep C can make life such a struggle for some. I am on round two now and I just pray it works this time.

[B-bunch]

Thanks everybody,
Wow, these threads really are like the telephone game. I started out with a question about red palms and the thread ends with banter about ascites and God! Whew...I'm new to this site but I really like it, it's informative and fascinating.

To FLGuy, I stopped the treatment on July 11th so my nextbaseline/ viral load test (PCR?) will be on Oct. 31. We shall see. I feel the same symptoms I felt before the treatment again, pain in upper right quadrant all the time, super fatigue, sweats during the day, fevers at night, nausea...you know, the whole gamet. And yes, I am genotype 1a, just lucky I guess.

To Kalio1,
I'm not sure about the moons on my fingernails..the only thing I see is that the mon part is very light pink and there is a halo surrounding the edge of the top of the "moon" that  is much darker pink. Can you describe what the changes would look like?

To Copyman, Sometimes a biopsy will miss the part of your liver that is cirrotic, and sometimes you can have some cirrosis and your labs show almost normal..Yes, I do have HepC.. But not the coffee colored urine. I did have it way back in 1982 when I contracted it. Back then I lived in SF and AIDS was called "Gay Cancer" so they called my hepatitis non-A non-B because I kept testing negative for HepA and HepB, so they just scratched their heads and my enzymes dropped after three months, so the doc said I was over it. He told me I could drink if I wanted etc. So I obeyed him and didn't just patry LIKE a rock star, I partyed WITH rock stars... I tracked the doc down last year, he's at UCLA now, a big kahuna there and he remembered me. What could he do? It's not his fault I was ahead of my time.

To GrandOak,
I thought (isn't this a great topic) that extremely light almost beige colored stools represented liver problems. Oh well. It seems like HepC has a gazillion symptoms and the treatment drugs have just as many side effects. My favorite sentence from doctors is.."I don't know, maybe it's a side effect or symptom?" One thing they DO know is how to deposit your check into their bank accounts right?

To Pdilly,
I think with your biopsy numbers the red palms are most likely associated with HepC. But the good news is at week 24 a lot of the HepC symptoms started to go away. I noticed my palms were not as red anymore and my achy liver wasn't aching anymore.  I have a light complection do you? It's possible people like me (who burn in the sun easily) show more skin abnormalities? That was a huge stretch.....wow.
Good Luck. Hang in there, if you need any help it's fairly obvious this is the place to air out questions that your doc blows off. We are all in the same boat seems like. One thing I can recommend right away is get yourself on an anti-depressent ASAP if your doc hasn't got you on one yet. I liked Effexor, it agreed with me..it's kind of like Wellbutrin and Paxil combined...but only you and your doc can work it out. If you don't use an anti-depressent and an anti-anxiety drug like Buspar (which is a little easier on your liver than Xanax) you might have trouble with your caregivers ,friends and your own state of mind, then you will REALLY be throwing pottery!!! And I'm talkin' against the wall. You don't have to stay on them forever just to help you get through the treatment. Yoga helps too, if you can do it without getting dizzy.
Don't forget to eat!! I wasn't hungry and only ate oatmeal bars and Strawberry Kefir and was dropped from the clinical trial because I developed anemia.

So...Fasten your seatbelts. You are in for a rocky ride.

B-bunch

[mikesimon]

You're correct that bleeding from varices can cause balck stolls but often that blood is vomited. I just haven't ever seen black tarry stools as the primary classical symptom. For instance at: http://www.webmd.com/hw/health_guide_atoz/aa67668.asp
Symptoms of cirrhosis and its complications may include:

    * Fluid buildup in the legs (edema) and the abdomen (ascites).
    * Fatigue.
    * Yellowing of the skin (jaundice).
    * Itching (pruritus).
    * Profuse nosebleeds (epistaxis).
    * Redness of the palms.
    * Small red spots and tiny lines on the skin called spider angiomas.
    * Bleeding from enlarged veins (varices) in the digestive tract.
    * Bruising easily.
    * Weight loss and muscle wasting.
    * Abdominal pain.
    * Frequent infections.
    * Confusion.

I guess the bleeding from varices is what GO was referring to but, having had varices, I didn't notice the black stools but I vomitted 4 units of blood so that explains why blood didn't get that far. Mike

[ladybug52]

Please describe the cahnges to the moons of your finger.

Grandoak: I appreciate your posts and am praying for you.  I just hope you are not in too much pain.

[mikesimon]

You said: "Do not forget the most classical sign: black tarry stools." Where did you learn this GO? Mike

[ladybug52]

It took me a minute but I thin GO means the auscities (SP?) in the esophagus and abdomen cause bleeding which cause black tarry stools. It put the severity of the disease in perspective to me so I commented about the pain level. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[GrandOak]

Do not forget the most classical sign: black tarry stools.

[GrandOak]

Mike, this is a condition I learned about while reasearching how to combat my increasing slide into alcholism.  Thank God I was able to find the source of my deliverance from that which is probably why I'm not dead today and resulted in the discovery of my HCV infection.  If some are offended at whom I credit for my rescue, then simply think I am refering to my AA Higher Power if it helps you.

Here is a bit of information I found that explains the source of this condition, that I've also seen refered to as "melena" (?):

"Esophageal varices. Esophageal varices are dilated veins located in the wall of the lower esophagus or upper stomach. When these veins rupture they may cause blood to appear in the stool or vomit. Esophageal varices are a serious complication resulting from portal hypertension brought on by cirrhosis of the liver."

Ladybug, thanks for your thoughts AND prayers.  The pain is not too bad, usual aches and pains from joints and marrow, but the fatigue is harder to deal with right now, along with this period of uncertainty as to whether tx is doing anything anymore or what my future options might be.  Although my labs last week showed another anemic and neutropenic (sic?) slide, the only change to my meds was to split my Procrit from 2 doses to 3 doses per week.  In part, I think because of the extremely high dosage (100,000 U per wk) and I'm wondering also if it's not anticpating me being pulled from tx in a few weeks and geared to try and get me through to that decision.  I will not be at all surprised in my labs next Friday, when PCR sample is also drawn, will show that like past labs where we waited a couple more weeks, my Hgb and ANC numbers to be extremely low once again.

Perhaps medical science needs to fail to allow other source of healing to be manifested.

[ladybug52]

Mike: Thanks for the correction ascites is the accumulation of fluid in the stomach, varices is what I meant.

GO: I come from a family of alcoholics.  My brother has been saved by A. A. and his belief in a higher power.  I beleive  in God and if this is censored then this is not the website I need to be on for help.  I will continue to keep you in my prayers. Please pray for me also.

[FlGuy]

Good luck as you start.  Have some help with the first injection? Maybe, if you were like me, it was that kind of experience that got you here in the first place.  The adventure begins...

[Pdilly]

I was worried sick too as I have red palms and the bottom of my feet are pink.  usually it is just my finger tips.  ANyway I had my bx and I am stage 2-3 and grade 2-3.    I do throw pottery so that may explain the pink palms some what.  Have you had your biopsy yet?

[copyman]

i can not believe that the only sign someone would have with cirrhosis would be red palms, i would think there have to be other indications such as abnormal labs or physical signs like spider aginoma, acisites,dark urine,etc?

to FLGuy, i will be starting tx for the first time this weekend.

[GrandOak]

Red palms can be more than a sign of possible liver problems, but let's not go there.

[Kalio1]

it is my understanding red palms can be related to severe liver damage, which can cause hormonal changes. but also pregnant women get them and some people are just born with them. Given a diagnosis of cirrhosis then one can assume it is probably due to liver damage at least that is what the doc told me. He also told me to stop worrying about it, that I could have been born with them.
I have them, a one inch wide area between my pinky and where my hand meets my wrist is reddish, like if you leaned too long on it. Only I didn't lean on it, it's reddish all the time.
Another thing, it also happens on the soles of our feet.
Have any of you noticed the moons on your fingers have changed? that's another sign of liver damage.

[GrandOak]

One needs to take caution in putting too much trust in things published on the internet.  Some of the most professional looking sites can be the biggest source of incorrect information.

The more credible information will often cite their sources which can be checked for their validity.

[FlGuy]

Based on what my doc said, I've assumed that they are liver damage related.  As far as I know I've never had any type of hormone imbalances.  But I do have the red palms and the other 'signs/symptoms'.  Did I read that you started tx, or are about to start?

[copyman]

so red palms do not mean liver damage all the time? i also have noticed my palms have some red on them and read all the "bad" things it could be on the internet. kind of scary to read some of the stuff on the internet. i was hoping it could be just a symptom of HCV or something with the hormones affected by HCV.

[FlGuy]

Have you had a pcr since the trial ended?  Maybe you got lucky and eliminated the virus.  Since you ended at 24, I gues you are geno 1.  Red palms (palmar erythma) is one of the many itens on the hcv ala carte menu.  Others include, but not limited to, spider nevi, blood sugar abnormalities, diminished blood platlets, etc...