SOCIALIZED MEDICINE, will it help or hurt research

weigh in if you want to!!  I think we'd set the clock back 50 years, but that's just me.

[beamishboy]

God forbid we provide equal care to all in america-just like every other first world nation!..much, if not most research is done at our universitys-tax exempt and recipients of major tax dollars..Profit from caring for the sick has made our system the most expensive in the world and yet far from the best-esp. for the poor&middle class.....The AMA favors single payer,a majority of americans favor single payer...but unfortunately the insurance industry has spent half a billion dollars lobbying against any major reforms in our present and HIGHLY profitable system...gee, i wonder why?  

[gauf]

bad idea i think. Still the best in the world. The cost problem can be solved by imprisoning lawyers!

[frijole]

I have 2 uninsured grandchildren - one has asthma.  Our illustrious leader thinks that is just fine.  My ex daughter in law falls in the crack -- too much income for medicaid and Schips and not enough income to put them on her employer's plan.    I have a 27 yo uninsured son who just went to the ER.  I guess the county will eat that $500+ bill.

As an employer who pays insurance for our small firm, I know it adds $3.92 per hour per employee to our labor cost.  That hurts.  We would not change the coverage - my hep C treatment cost $85,000 (my cost was $5,000) and my partner had breast cancer.  But still, something has to be done.

The medicare program is, in fact, a socialized medical program for senior citizens.  It works okay, but could be better.  The medicare part D - prescription coverage - is a bust.  Good for the citizen but the government has no negotiation powers with the drug companies and therefore pays way too much.  It needs to be changed.

Yes, I think we need some kind of reform so we can all be covered.  Healthy people will make a better country and socialized medicine is worth a try
frijole

[mikesimon]

This type of post definitely belongs on the other side - the Community Side. There isn't any question about that. This just clutters up an already cluttered up medical/research side of medhelp.

This forum is for questions about medical issues and research aspects of Hepatitis such as, questions about being newly diagnosed, questions about current treatments, information and participation in discussions about research studies and clinical trials related to Hepatitis. If you would like to communicate with other people who have been touched by Hepatitis, please visit our new Hepatitis Community/Living with Hepatitis forum.

[mremeet]

It's a complicated issue with many ins and outs. And there are many significant flaws with our current (US) heathcare system, there's definitely room for improvement. But overall socialized healthcare will reduce the ultimate level of care available to nearly all low and middle income people. It will also result in a huge hike in taxation, both on individuals and on corporations. This will further remove ordinary people's ability to use their own discretion (by choosing where to spend *their* money) in deciding where they go for healthcare and what type of healthcare they'll be able to access. And of course the politicians and hollywood celebrities who so vigorously tout these policies for "the little people" will in no way shape or form participate in (nor be subjected to) socialized healthcare at all. You won't see them waiting in line at the local clinic, you wont see them waiting for rationed CAT scans, and you won't see them struggling with mediocre government doctors who aren't good enough to have a private practice with private clientele. They'll all have the very best private doctors and priority lab/diagnostic services for both themselves and their loved ones at all times. And as far as research, heavy corporate taxation (pharmaceutical co's are corporations) will subdue research in this area and it will retard innovation (like what is seen with Telaprevir and SCH503034 for instance). That's why these drugs (and many other similar cutting edge drugs) have originated from the US (and its capitalistic system) and not from countries who have widely adopted socialism. Overall it would not be a good thing at all.

[mremeet]

Oops you're right mike, I forgot where we were here. Sorry 'bout that.

[beamishboy]

didn't start this thread 'here' ,but,this is a 'medical issue' and well worth discussion...just did a little reading in nytimes article by paul krugman-annual premiums to medical insurance industry-$776,000,000
friole-i also employed and thru union-my costs were staggering with bluecross/blueshield and not one employee was covered until they had 1,000 hrs per yr-plus comp insurance another Crazy cost system...we are becoming a less competitive nation with these sky-rocketing prices..look at recent gm and uaw negotiations-All about med insurance-

[gauf]

Was working on an opinion, after reading yours I dumped it cause you said it best. I wholeheartedly concur. Like mind again dude.

[PSP-n-Me]

here in Canada we have Universal Healthcare - No one goes without health care - The waits may be a bit longer than the States, but no preferential treatment is given based on what kind of coverage you have, what name, race, or social status - Everyone is equal...I thank God I am tx here in Canada compared to the States - I have heard so many horror stories about how HCV patients are treated and the astronomical costs involved - The ONLY thing I have to pay for is a 10% co pay on my meds, everything else is covered - Doctor visits, Labs, Medical tests and Procedures - And I have top notch care - My Doctor is a world wide known and well respected researcher of the liver and it's diseases, and she has a NP that is outstanding - I have seen both sides of the border when it comes to healthcare - When I lived in the States (10 years ago) the healthcare was top notch, state of the art - Not anymore!  Thank you Mr. Bush! (I refuse to call him President, he is not nor has ever been Presidential material)

Kathy - I feel for your grand babies .. It just isn't fare that every American citizen doesn't enjoy the benefits of the Healthcare System there.

[mikesimon]

I didn't suggest that it wasn't "well worth discussion". Maybe I should post about an ingrown toenail - I mean it is a medical issue and "well worth discussion" if you happen to be suffering form that malady. BUT - IT DOESN'T BELONG HERE - that is the point.
For your edification one last time:

"This forum is for questions about medical issues and research aspects of Hepatitis such as, questions about being newly diagnosed, questions about current treatments, information and participation in discussions about research studies and clinical trials related to Hepatitis"

[gauf]

Who pays for all that free healthcare? Do they tax the rich, or the middle /lower class? just wondering how it can be free, i mean someone must be paying for it.

[jmjm530]

I see pro's and con's -- and def some fixin' is needed -- but the bottom line for me is quality of care. This article is similar to what I've heard from some doctor friends.

http://www.memag.com/memag/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=133883
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are the best and brightest going into medicine?

"When the Medical Economics Continuing Survey asked physicians earlier this year, "Do you think the brightest young people are going into medicine today?" 72 percent said, firmly, No!...The litany of reasons is familiar to anyone practicing medicine today: Too much government red tape . . . and not enough reimbursement. An uphill battle to repay medical education debt . . . and a downhill slide into liability hell.
-------------------

The question then is, will a move toward socialized medicine help or hurt this apparent trend?

And to be fair, the article also asks "do the brightest necessarily make the best doctors? And that's a legitimate question, however there is no guarantee that a potential new crop of "less bright" doctors will be any more caring than the ones we have, for better or worse.

-- Jim

[gauf]

Well, i agree it needs tweaking, but when has the Government ever done a good job running anything. Schools? i don't think so. Mail? I don't think so. etc. I think entitlements like this is just a way for politicians to aquire power, and create more dependence on the government. Let the free market rule I say.

[PSP-n-Me]

I noticed a very good friend of mine TexMikel has joined our  Community - Maybe you should read his profile and then ask him or his wife how the "quality of care" was for him when he was dying in the hospital due to ESLD with a MELD of 38 and they told his wife there was NOTHING they could do for him - If it weren't for his wife he would of died - she was like a dog with a bone and didn't stop until he got listed top of the line on the TP list and thankfully got a "perfect new liver" (god bless the donar family) ...You claim to have excellent medial coverage - well no wonder you view the US Healthcare as "quality" - Those that got the bucks get the best..But those that got the bucks are very far and few between these days, thanks to Mr Bush - Or how bout Kathy's grand babies - they have NO coverage - God forbid what if one of those children need emergency surgery - what then?  In the States you get what you pay for - So does that mean the "quality care" does not apply to America's youth????   And what about Charms - who is still waiting for approval to go on tx - becasue of Insurance red tape - shouldn't she have the same "quality" you have?  Here in Canada we loose almost 3/4 of our brand new out of school Doctor's to the States due to the "brain drain"  They can make as much money as they want if the work in the States - Here in Canada their income is capped...So you see, much of your "quality" comes from Canada in the first place...

I agree with you that there is "some fixin needed" but when you look at the whole picture greed makes up a big part of it..

[jmjm530]

But have you noticed that nothing seems to be run very well anymore :)  It used to be just the gov't, now even going to a dept store seems like going to the DMV. LOL.

That said, there is one area I'd like to see the gov't step into and that is medical research. Right now, the lion share of all trials are being run by the drug companies with obvious conflicts. There is no incentive for them to plow money into generic cures -- be it existing drugs, herbs, whatever -- because there just wouldn't be a profit.

Comments on that?

-- Jim

[gauf]

Again, Sounds like higher taxes. I am taxed out. Maybe I'll just give it up and go on the government dole, too. Seems to be working out for France.

[jmjm530]

No, I don't view the U.S. healthcare system as "Quality" and your friend's story is all too common here. I've experienced it myself with friends and families. If you don't have an advocate when in the hospital, in many cases you're just toast.

The question really is will socialized medicine make it better or worse, and that is a complex issue. As to the Canadian system, I've seen some very positive posts here, and some very negative ones. In fact, you posted some very negative posts a couple of years ago, but I'm happy that now you apparently are receiving excellent care.

But may I ask why you're posting this to me after our discussion yesterday? Others have made my same points in a more articulate way -- Mre for example.

I'm more than happy to have exchanges with you if they are civil and non-personal in nature, but I thought both of us decided yesterday to avoid each other for awhile? There are ways you could have made the same points with addressing them to me.
Unless, of course, you want to try to have some civil discourse like we used to in the past. Your choice, but I really don't want to go back to what was going on yesterday.

-- Jim

[gauf]

Oh boy, here we go....

[jmjm530]

I hear you on the taxes but maybe the upside might be less expensive and more effective drugs. Just a dream :)

[PSP-n-Me]

the reason I posted to you is because you keep using the word "quality" when discussing the US Healthcare - you have nothing to compare it to - You have "quality" care becasue you pay for it - and you are the one that dishonored our agreement by posting that alcohol nonsense 10 minutes after we agreed, so what's good for the goose???  at least I was not directly insulting you - was just giving my input on this discussion and posted to your attention in a civil manner - You do not have the monopoly on discussions in here - I thought it was for all members...

[jmjm530]

I wasn't aware that our agreement meant I couldn't post either about alcohol or make a joke to lighten up the thread, as was my intent. The agreement was to stay out of each other's faces, including not posting to each other. Again, others have made the same points I did, and you could have posted to them, or just made your point without posting to anyone. This is getting a bit tired to me as I'm sure it is to the group. Maybe someone else has a suggestion, cause I'm out of them and out of this discussion.

[PSP-n-Me]

if your that "sensitive" I will not use your name in my posts anymore - but no way will I stop posting just cause you can't deal with opinions other than yours - isn't that called arrogant?

[gauf]

found this from you in my message box:  "if you keep deliberatly antagonising me I will report you to MH"...    ?????  Did I miss something???  When did i antagonize you?

[PSP-n-Me]

read your posts if you're able to

[mikesimon]

This turned out even worse than I expected. It is quite disappointing, to say the least. Mike

[gauf]

Oh, I get it. If someone disagrees with you, you report them to MH. Think maybe you woke up on the wrong side of the Riba this morning.  Ok, I'll give jim a break for awhile, lt's dance.

[gauf]

Sorry Mike, you are absolutely right. I am dumping this thread.

[Forseegood]

have to do something, because if it goes on the way it is, youre going to see a mass exodus of medical personal going to private industry, other countries, or some other related field that doesn't clinical practice. it's already beginning to happen.

And people, we are already "paying for all this out of our own pockets" in vast amounts of people, (not just immigrants) going to ERs to have simple medical procedures done, that they need right away or the procedures won't be so simple down the line, and the ER's will probably have to pay for those too.

Of course few people can afford these procedures with no insurance, so this massive problem is shutting down many ERs across the country.

What should these people do who can't afford medical insurance?, quietly die in their homes or on the streets?  

We could revert to the middle ages, and have ambulances and coroners cruise down the streets, shouting out "bring out your dead" as they did in the black plague...Sick humor to be sure, but these things are pretty crucial and deserve answers. So we are already paying our own tax dollars for these failing medical systems, and not in the most efficient way, because going to ERs is much more expensive and less efficient  and practical then going to medical offices.

My younger sister almost died of liver and kidney failure in Liverpool, England, they had a 24 hour nurse with her, physical therapists to come in and move her arms and legs for circulation, and gave her the best care imaginable. She was in critical care for a month, and in the ICU for another 3. In the beginning they gave her a 5% chance of pulling though, but she stayed in that hospital for 4 months, till they gave her a limo ride to the airport, with two nurses, flew her over here first class, along with 2 nurses, to a hospital here, once she could travel. That was 4 years ago now, and though she's not in the best of health, she's walking a few miles a day and doing okay. They saved her life, because they probably figured, she's a human being like the rest of us and her life is worth saving, just like anybody else's life.

What do you think her chances might of been if she was in a county hospital here in any major city? I love this country very much and I am very grateful for the medical systems here, and the scientists and research from big pharma, etc.... but I can't help but think that many of these people who say that we have the best in the world in this, and the best in the world in that....have never really been to any place else or sampled these things any where else to make those judgments. No offense to anybody here, and sorry I posted this on this side, but this is where this thread was posted. There needs to be better ways to handle this, or even the upper middle classes will be able to ill afford medical care in this country. Never mind the poor. Just my take.

[3txsofar]

Unfortunately, the debate about 'socialized medicine' never really gets anywhere, because people attach whatever success or horror stories to the label and off we go to a useless discussion.

There are though many different types of 'socialized medicine' and if we are to have a debate about it, we will have to be more precise.  Does the governemnt finance it and provide it as in the United Kingdom?  Does it pay for it through payroll and other taxes, but let the private secor provide, as in Germany and France?  Does it mandate employer provision and pay for the indigent while allowing  private sector to provide?  There are many differnt ways of getting to a more equitable system.

And in terms of research and development - Novartis, Roche, Bayer Sanofi-Aventis, GlaxoSmith-Klein and many other sucessful pharmaceutical companies are all based in countries with socialized medicine.    

[Forseegood]

astute post. I just didn't want to go there, because I'm long winded enough just in just the points I did cover....:) welcome, haven't personally seen you here before. Be well.

[nygirl7]

Thank you 4C that was an EXCELLENT post.  I had forgottetn about your sisters experience and if that isn't the best example of how it should be I'll eat my hat.  Wow.  Thanks very much for a great intelligent pro-healthcare for all position.

[3txsofar]

Thanks.  I must say I appreciated your post and sympathize.

Oddly, I found this board through the Vertex message board at Yahoo Finance.   I check out the message boards there now and then for stocks I own or am thinking about.  It is not the critical DD, but still you can find some kernels, including this board.  

As the moniker indicates, I've gone through 3 western treatments so far, each got the virus very low, but not low enough.  

Good luck to you!

[pigeonca]

I pay $474 a month for my insurance, out of pocket because I free-lance and haven't had much work of late.  I don't care where that money comes from, whether out of pocket, lowered earnings, or higher taxes.  It's still, no matter how you cut it, $474 a month.

But if the insurance companies were cut out of the loop, with their operating expenses of approximately 20%, and if the government handled the non-medical chores (which are estimated to be 2 to 3 percent), I would guess that my payment would be more like $400 a month.  I'm for saving money.

As far as choice goes, I belong to Kaiser, which represents the principal model that a socialized medical system will probably follow, according to my primary care doc.  I have completely free choice within the Kaiser realm.  They employ as many doctors in Southern California as populate a city the size of Minneapolis, and I can choose among all of them.  What Kaiser does is initially assign a patient to a primary doc, who one can either accept or reject.  I went through three until I found my present guy, who I've been with since 1991.  He's great.

Although Kaiser has its share of lemons, the percentages are about the same as at any private hospital, like Cedars Sinai or UCLA, which are considered tops in my part of the country.  (Cedars, for example, is famous for giving people HIV in the 80's.)  The kind of physician who chooses to work there is generally somebody who wants to practice medicine without the encumbrances of running a business and isn't excessively greedy.  Like National Health in Britain, Kaiser pays its staff competitively and well.  They're not going to be billionaires like Beverly Hills plastic surgeons, but all their children will be able to attend good private schools.

Regarding the cautionary legends of lines and overcrowded waiting rooms, I've had way smoother sailing with my hcv than many if not most of the people here.  Upon diagnosis, I was sent to a hepatologist within a week, and everything moved like clockwork after that.  I got all the helper drugs I needed, even Procrit at an hgb level of 11.5.  My copays were $15 per visit or test, $25 for each month's supply of INF and another $25 a month each for riba and Procrit.

The only time I had a delay in treatment at Kaiser was about 5 years ago when I had a bunion that needed surgery.  I had to wait about three months and was a bit annoyed, but actually a bunion shouldn't have the priority level of hcv or any other serious illness, so I accept that sort of wait.

Now, regarding research, I am very much aware that the profit motive is a tremendous incentive to progress.  But since the pharmaceutical companies will still exist, how will socialized medicine affect research?  Many of the major medical advances in recent years come out of Europe and Israel, countries which have socialized medicine.

[3txsofar]

Just curious - What major medical advance has come out of Israel?

Thanks in advance?

[pigeonca]

Just google "israel medical advances" or "israel medical innovations."  It's absolutely amazing what sort of science comes out of that little country - including some cutting-edge research on an hcv vaccine.

[3txsofar]

I'm sure they develop a lot of stuff, but you said "major medical advances'.  If it is a major medical advance, you don't need google.

The Israelis also have Teva Pharma - a generic producer.

But, I'm unaware of anything I would call a 'major medical advance'.

[pigeonca]

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/mfaarchive/1990_1999/1999/8/focus%20on%20israel%20-%20innovations%20in%20medical%20technolog

Go to about 2/3 of the way down the page and you will see a list: "Examples of Medical Devices and Equipment Pioneered in Israel"

[pigeonca]

I just noticed that the above url comes from 1999, so that list is incomplete.  By 2007, the number of innovations is way greater.

[beamishboy]

my number for health insurance premiums was missing a couple of o's..should have read: 776,000,000,000-that's billions of dollars..sorry to get yr dander up mike..i wasn't trying to.

[merryBe]

wow, lots of ideas. I've been without insurance for several of the last 20 years so I've seen both sides of this.
bottom line, thank God we aren't going to third rate doctors in countries with no research, clinics full of flies and the latest discovery was how to keep aspirin dry! Our system is flawed, but needs fixing, NOT socializing, and thats already happening. Middlemen are being eliminated, they do their job or get sued easier than before, and the private system is improving in spite of tremendous strains on it right now.
some here know this, some what perfection...

we live in the real not the ideal world. A company has to build huge facilities, pay huge salaries for huge labor, docs and research, and at the end of the day make a profit to repay both the stock holders who lent their life savings to build the company, and have enough left over for research and development into the next life saving substance.

If utopia were possible, everyone would work for free to serve mankind, government would do a much more efficient job than the private sector, and cutting out all profits wouldn't slow down research one bit.

but does that world exist or could it ever? Who has come up with 90 percent of the worlds cures in the last 50 years. would that be USA or all the rest of the world combined. Answer USA.
All abuses aside, and we know there are many, capitalism works and it funds more research than any other system.
Folks are up in arms that the evil drug company gave away billions of drugs and formulas to third world nations. Are they complaining that when the company found a 60 percent cure they gave their 50 percent cure worth billion away to the impoverished? Complaining there are side effects as if the new things don't have sides or are not as or more  risky?  Complaining that the company sold drugs for a profit, and then pumped 10-20 percent back into more research? What exactly is their complaint. OH, I know, everybody got a pay check!!!

which of you does not want a pay check?  Which of you does not want a return on your investment?
Idealism is the domain of the young, as you age, you begin to understand the real world, what works and what does not.
We can all want fairness, but sometimes fairness is letting the systems play themselves out until we see what works, and what does not. Who here wants to live in cuba or the "new" old USSR....
trade anyone?  why not?  It's where one canidate thinks we should go!!!!!

[merryBe]

1. sorry I put this thread on the wrong side.

2. I'm not rich. I have decent insurance for the first time in my life the last 2 years. AND I disagree with senators and congressmen cutting in line in front of everyone else.

HOWEVER, the canadian system sucks. If you have stage 1 Hep C, and I have stage 4, then I'm sorry but I should get to cut in line in front of you. that's called triage. In a war, the person whose jugular is spirting gets on the surgeons table and the man with a limp and a flesh wound waits a little longer as a result of it, he's not gonna die in lie like the other guy. In socialsm no such distinction is made.

THAT IS NUTS. nobody likes waiting rooms, I've waited months to see docs. But if its major, if you rush your comatose kid into emergency do you want the doc to finish seeing the constipated pizza eater or deal with your child??  It's not rocket science.

we need to give our system the ability to think and discern intelligently and not make hard fast rules that deprive some of life because the rules say they cannot discern. there's a difference between discerning, and discriminating.
If a hollywood guy gets a OR table for his 5th face lift and I have to wait for a transplant as a result that's discrimination. If I get a liver before you because I'm blown up like a blow fish and you just have fevers, that's discernment. It matters not where we were in line, let's allow our system the right to save as many as possible. Government buraucracy is the death nell to this reasoning.

[beamishboy]

calling  any of a variety of single payer systems 'socialized' medicine begs the question...bringing up cuba and the ussr is lowbrow fearmongering..our system could take the best ideas from many countrys-i will not list them all,but they include austrailia,japan,germany-and develop an inclusive model with low overhead,low administrative costs and become once again 'the best...cause right now our status is far from the best..our infant mortality rate falls somewhere around 140th in the world-not something to be proud of..we need to spend a great deal more on preventative alternatives-how can a "capitalist",for profit system care about that?..as for paychecks,the best figures put 2 or 3 million people employed just refusing or DENYING health care -surely there are more productive ways to earn a living...we will never agree about this issue,but the fact that the for profit industry can spend nearly half a billion dollars influencing(LOBBYING) this decision makes for a very corrupted debate...and by the way the drug companys now spend more money advertising then they do on research

[beamishboy]

o.k. just one more thing..our system at present takes superb care of those who can afford it...i am also insured and i am v glad that yu are too...but we presently have close to 50,000,000 uninsured citizens and they do not get superb care-how is this right?.....and as for the gov't running the program,heck they do a pretty decent job with medicare and the v.a. system use to be a great one...our gov't is fine, it's the dang politicians and lobbyists messing things up-IMHO

[merryBe]

like your points, yes advertising is up...reason, they only have 7 yrs to recoupe all cost or R & D (research and dvelopment)...after that, they have to pay for the equipment buildings chemists to make it etc etc. etc. Then at the end of 7 years they must share the info with the rest of the world.

ok so you work your butt off for 7 years, make some money, but then, then give it all away? Government says so. No more skate board for Willy Beamish!!!   You likey??

It's a trade off dude, between capitalism and socialism really. The average drug that makes it to market costs over a billion dollars for the research, test, time and trial required...jumps through a hundred required FDA tests...in the end 1 in 100 are approved. you do the math.

People invest, not the government, in drugs i.e. companies that show promise. In the end, they make some profit, or lose some, not the taxpayers/government....so the company, well heck yeah they work hard to get awareness of their drugs out there in time to recoupe their loss, would't you?  

Nobody tells Ford, or Gates, or Phil Knight they must give away their trade secrets every 7 years.
to me, this is as balanced as you can get without creating anarchy and utter discouragement. If you take away all chance at success or profit you will not get the best and brightest, in the real world, that just doen't happen. You ask a guy with 14 year education and kids to feed, how about you make 20K instead of 200....which way will he jump.....???????
and your chances of a cure now or in 3 years just took a nose dive into the idealist abyss of underinformed ignoramusville ala Lenin St.leftovers from the 60's.
hope that helps!

[Forseegood]

Why make these kinds of leaps? What does having a socialized medical system have to do with taking down capitalism?  Or living in Cuba? Or the USSR? With all it's problems, Medicare is a social program, anybody complaining about having Medicare? Should we put our old people on boats out to sea and set them afire, like the Vikings?

It's one social program among many, yet capitalism in America still thrives, virtually uncapped with very few controls....it helps out big Oil in so many ways, bless their hearts, so that Big Oil makes billions in profits, more then ever.....while the average joes are paying though the nose to fill up their tanks cause they aren't getting it anywhere else.....so do all the complaining you want on that front...

I've always been solvent, with good insurance, but I don't live in this country by myself. I won't live with that, "I got mine, screw you attitude".  And excuse me, but I have heard of a lot of waiting in waiting rooms here, HMOs are famous for it.

If we would of had some kind of oversight on a flaming example of unbridled capitalism - the sub-prime loan disaster wouldn't have happened....these winner takes all companies wouldn't have been able to give loans to homeless people for God's sake, taking all that upfront money...now the govt will bail out these unethical top executives, while the middle class to poor people are being  thrown out of their houses (because of mass foreclosures) at unprecedented rates....which might just drag us all into a mini-recession.

Don't worry, capitalism is alive and well in the U S of A. But the medical systems are going into free fall, we can't just "do nothing" as we have been doing,  like I said.....if it continues on like this, at some point only the very well heeled will be able to even afford medical insurance. And OUR TAX DOLLARS, A LOT OF TAX DOLLARS will be paying for the people waiting in ERs, a supremely inefficient way to spend our tax dollars for  medical care....I don't understand some of your points though, a Hollywood guy getting a face lift would be in a plastic surgeons office, a person getting a transplant is in a hospital, hopefully.

Unless we come to some decision to let people die where they stand (that will be nice and cheery)....Maybe we need people to fly en mass to other countries for their medical care (a phenomenon that is already beginning to happen) so demand will go down.... We have to implement some new ideas, because one thing is for certain and most agree with this, the present system is broken, or at least it's pretty dang ill.

I don't think the Canadian system is the best, but it does cover their citizens... my brother's family (who live in Toronto) are rather happy with it, there is triage there. Sure there are many sides to that story too.

[merryBe]

hmo's, lobbyist, endless conversations...lots of troubles there...medicare is more flawed.
the average person on medicare paid for 3 years coverage and gets 20 yrs with our "flawed" medicine in this country affording them ans extra 10-20 years we hadn't expected or planned for.
Medicare is broke, you and three or 4 other boys now pay for each senior, each month. Nothing is being laid aside for you but IOU'S.  
rather than rectify this by cutting off the rich, certain income levels have NO business on medicare, they lay **** after **** on the middle class.....sure, Medicare D works, NOT.
we are so busy giving millions of illegal aliens who pay no taxes medicine, that we've decided every gramma needs to pay 5 grand more.  Yup, that what my grannie pays more now.
the poorest get a free ride, the illegals get a free ride, the unemployed get cut off, and the grannies with a 20K income, cause they did save their skekels so as not to be a burden on their children, get stiffed for an extra 5 grand. Make sense of that one if you are.
It's called the donut hole through which half our elderly now jump. I see the problem as 2 fold, one, people don't take advantage of cobra, 2. companies have ways around providing or offering benefits. that has to stop. 3. there has to be a bill sent to mexico that they have to pay for the billions in services we now provide. you get sick, you sneak up here you get well. what incentive does Vincente have to stop corruption OR build decent hospitals when we are willing to do all the heavy lifting??

I got an idea, you cook dinner every night, and just before you sit down to eat it, I'll come over and remove a third of it.....same idea. How long before you say, wait a minute here, I worked for that, my kids are hungry, go get your own dinner, and YOU work for it. I don't see this an an immigration issue, it's an issue of coming in, ordering a big dinner with no intention of paying the tab. In most restaurants that's called robbery.......not charity. Charity is a whole other matter. People that come lefally, apply for citizenship are afforded the same rights and priveledges that come with being a tax payer......this is different.

[merryBe]

good points all. I've seen some footage on clinics in Russia, Cuba recently (not the one Castro wants you to see) and even England, more flawed than you can imagine. We have a gravy train by comparison. Yes HMO's are flawed. So are doctors, so are patients. the idea of managed care is a debatable one because A. the management tries to weed out over eager docs and patients, and B. without them you have mass abuses by both groups and PARTICULARLY blatant in the medicare areana where it's government supposedly supervising who get's what test. If medicare has found trillions in abuses, how does that speak to THEIR management skills or the idea that things will get better if they take over the whole system???

Besides which....I have family on medicare...and the old adage, oh but your on medicare, so that's not available is something I've heard for 20 years while caring for a now 85 year old.
the idea to cut back on basics....like giving her an MRI, or my HMO refusing to give me one after going through a windshield?????? Neither of these groups are GOOD at management.
the real truth is sometime you use the word "legal" because it's the only way to awaken the slumbering bored and too infrequently held accountable professionals (loosely pros).

the real truth is the system is only as good as the people in it. Our morals have taken a nose dive. Now it shows up in more corruption in every arena. No moral backbone, no excellence in service.

and yes, I object too to the excess corruption, only excess to us seems new, why; because a million isn't what it once was. read up on the corruption in NY or chicagos governments and companies 70 years ago, you'll see there's nothing new under the sun.

I want the fake loan guys in JAIL, not white collar jail either, and hopefully they will be, more have gone lately than ever before. still a drop.
If congress wasn't so busy trying to malign everyone GB appointed, and maybe got back to their JOB, making laws, maybe 5 times more would be going.

you have to ask though, what kind of idiot takes out an interest only loan, or doesn't understand a deal to good to be true or even the concept of prime, or variable rates, or even basic economics. At some point, all good will and charity aside, I'd have to say,

look, I'm sorry you bought snake oil, I'm sorry you all had to have a house that was twice as big as what your means could really afford. I still think, it's not our place to bail them out. Let them take what equity or lumps they must, and for God sakes do not deregulate the banks like they now suggest. Greed is inherent in human beings. Brokers. lawyers you name it....suddenly we think bankers will be an exception? right!!

what I don't get, and this is me being stupid maybe, but they can hold and trace and freeze whole countries assets and have. Why is the Enron B. sitting on billions? I mean, wouldn't it make more sense to say, you get caught, you go to jail AND we hunt down your wife and children's trust funds??

If an enron employee has zip in retirement, and some brats somewhere are sucking on their life's work...and can't be touched because Ken was good at spreading the wealth around, how is that fair?
there would be a lot less corruption if men knew that they couldn't hide it anywhere, and that their family as well would be ruined.


nut back to the new loan debaucle, if my kids spends to much on a car, he'll learn when he tries to trade up and can't cause he to high into it....if he forgets to put oil in it, it blows up. Do I buy him a new one, or let him buy a junker and learn a lesson? I let him buy the junker!! It's buyer beware!!!

Unfortunately, many parent abducated their responsibility to teach their kids basic economic, leaving it to an ever degrading public education system. We are now seeing the effects of this.
How many kids know today that 6 percent doubles their homes cost or more even?

socializing house payments is maybe what we ought to call it. Hey, I live in a 50's ranch, but I don't mind paying for your 3 story granite lined gullibility??  Actually I used to be a socialist. Now I see it as communism just bumped over one land group or two. We won't call it that, but there's darn little difference.

I like the guy who said it cost's me an extra 3.50 per hour per employee now. Try triple that if we socialize and bail out for another ten years. there's only so long we can borrow as a nation before reaching insolvency. there's only so much benefit you can pay per employee before you can't feed your own...small business is the biggest piece of our county pie, they get it, No one else seems to understand that today.

Servicing the debt, debt Loads, PE ratios, remember that stuff...well don't explain it to me, write your congressman and explain it to him, I'm expecting we'll try repackaging the same old tired promises and deliver no belt tightening in this decade either, regardless of who's elected. it's not in most nature's anymore to connect the dots!!

Unfortunate because I'm expecting a melt down of this bloated ice cube before any other.

[merryBe]

I have excellent health care NOW and have for almost 2 of the last 20 years, before that I suffered under insured, no insurance, even had to go on state health care during cancer....every step of the way, even now.....I've had to fight for every scap....and had had to fight like a dog so often I mail myself monthly Advantage just to be safe!

the system is flawed, read my responses instead of just assuming you know how I think,
the question was...to socialize or not.......answer: sounds good BUT< but it won't be "all fixed" by socializing. It will be fixed by holding HMO's DOCS, DRug companies, AND our government accountable. By we as consumers demanding a return to sanity.  Even by using our legal system when necessary. What better cause!!  (and no I'm not a lawyer).

I'm sorry about your friend........been there.

It's unfortunate, but you have to be proactive yourself or have someone fight for you because there is SO MUCH entrenched apathy and stagnation. things in motion tend to stay in motion, well thing lump is stuck.

I lay here writing, prossibly dying, because of ineptitude, denied tests and procedures....
why would you presume someone clueless because they differ in approaches to fix things???

SO< still, I'm telling you socializing is not the answer. I agree your friend needed to be moved up, thank God a liver came in. If you follow the models in Europe and elsewhere, someone far less critical could have gotten that liver not because they were a better match, but because of where they were in the line.

The way it is now people who are too sick to fight still have to, or have someone doing it, or resign themselves to neglect which will deapen exponetially with socializm.....because the docs who should be pro active are too stapped, too busy, too regulated to "only spend 20 minutes with you" and few really advocate for their patients as a result. Only the rich can pay extra for a doc who will do this. AND they do. don't think our politicians wait in line either....they never will!!!!!!!!!!
No lines there.

But if you think socializing it will solve this, respectfully, you are wrong. You are assuming that the system will continue to improve if you remove all reward, all profit, and further regulate how much can be done and for whom. It's like asking farmers to plant corn, and telling them in advance the crop will fail!!

as flawed as our system is, socialing it will dehumanize it even more. Government workers are the least efficient of all classes of people. and the most jaded. I watched a road crew fill a hole on my road last month. It took six workers, who stood for an hour before the truck came, and took another hour when they got the asphalt. On hole, one wheel barrow full. 6 guys, 2 hours. Lazy, jaded, overrewarded bureaucrats. We need MORE of these????

At some point, like the Dutch we will find ourselves legislating to pay docs as much as clerks, and to euthanize the old people.anything to balance the budgets so everyone will get their raise and the elite can have their private non line system. Is that what we want? Hmmm...Hitler used that second idea...too much trouble those old people, line em up and pop!!!

I guess you have more faith in human nature than I do. I see the systems flaws as fixable when you take away the perks docs get from drug companies, and the kick backs from HMO's for denying care. Jail a few of them!!!!! But if you take it to government management you will bog it down to the point that you'll chaos in the ranks and little to no research etc.

ADJUNCT: whoever said medicare can't negotiate for cheaper drugs is misimformed. they can and do, big time.
what they can't do is force a company to GIVE away something still under patent.

[merryBe]

can't answer everybody, too tired.

but to end the night, eventually socializm and population growth and rising costs will mean busier more over crowded "public" hospitals. Period.

No, not all plastic surgery is done in Private quarters, if a person has anything that could mean a complication, they get a regular OR room.

Personally, I don't want my about to burst gallbladder pushed back because 3 plastics took longer than usual, so that whole system needs to change. Electives need to be handled differently and not given the same status as sick people. Sorry, but that has to change.

Also, where do people go overseas for this "better care". I have friends who travel all of whom have horror stories of European supposedly state of the art care. they can't wait to get state side.

Yes there are drug companies abroad as well...we aren't alone in discoveries. Check out the R and D, and patent protections they have as well. One area that can't be socialized in the true sense of the word is that one.
It would spell disaster. You cannot villianize the drug companies for all the ills in health care. It's scapegoatism and far too simplistic.

[merryBe]

finale'

who here knows who founded and wrote the first socialist doctrines?

who knows what USSR stands for?





hint, starts with a K
hint, 3rd word is socialist

[beamishboy]

we need to agree to disagree...no more

[Willy50]

other side....agreed.  That would also go for discussions other political or religion polemics.
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"Medical Bills Leading Cause of Bankruptcy, Harvard Study Finds
February 3, 2005
Illness and medical bills caused half of the 1,458,000 personal bankruptcies in 2001, according to a study published by the journal Health Affairs.

Bankruptcy Bill
• Senate Passes MBNA's Bankruptcy Bill
• Congress Ready to Tighten Bankruptcy Law
• Medical Bills Leading Cause of Bankruptcy, Harvard Study Finds


The study estimates that medical bankruptcies affect about 2 million Americans annually -- counting debtors and their dependents, including about 700,000 children.

Surprisingly, most of those bankrupted by illness had health insurance. More than three-quarters were insured at the start of the bankrupting illness. However, 38 percent had lost coverage at least temporarily by the time they filed for bankruptcy.

Most of the medical bankruptcy filers were middle class; 56 percent owned a home and the same number had attended college. In many cases, illness forced breadwinners to take time off from work -- losing income and job-based health insurance precisely when families needed it most."
(visit the link for the rest of the article.-Willy)
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I think that many people feel that the system is becoming increasingly broken if the people in the above article find themselves in bankruptcy.

I sometimes see arguments that seem based more on fear than on reason.  In spite of the fact that there are other socialized medical systems in place (yes, none are perfect) an appeal is made to scare us; "Yes, but if we change the current system it will be EVEN WORSE.  We must go in a certain direction or else all hell will break loose."  Seems like we got into a Mid East conflict with that same logic......or Viet Nam before that.  : )

It's all Rhetoric with a captital R.  People end up becoming so involved in defending a position that they don't answer other threads that ARE about HCV (this one ain't)....and isn't that why people come to a Hepatitis forum?  There are plenty of political forums out there......

Willy

[pigeonca]

Socialized delivery of medical care, as in Europe, does not eliminate privately or publicly owned pharmaceutical companies.  Schering and Roche etc. will probably do better under a national health plan than they do today because there will be more customers for their products.

Also, triage is used everywhere and trumps position in lines.  The gunshot wound always takes precedence over indigestion.  To think otherwise is just totally disingenuous.

[Myown]

BRAVO!!! *Standing O* Thunderous Applause!!!!

[beamishboy]

O.K. i gotta respond,but with this caveat:let's take it too the othr side......You never answered my questions;responded to my comments and quotes...merely went off on a RANT........read AMERICAN HISTORY..!!!!! we are the country,the nation that others looked to for guidance at becoming an Egalitarian society-in the past..you know,being free,equal,   fair,compassionate and taking care of our own...This Nation and it's wealth are the compounded results of natural resources and generations of labor..and i for one am not happy or proud to see the present state of affairs...i urge you to do a little reading about the American labor movement and the real history of this country(try howard zinn) if your heart doesn't swell with PRIDE and you are not moved to tears by the twisted path we have taken...at that point,i will v strongly agree to dissagree and 'say no more'......

[pigeonca]

"A People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn - one of the best, corrective pictures of our country's history I've ever read.  At my niece's high school, a fancy-schmancy private boarding school BTW, this book was part of the curriculum for AP US History.  Thanks for the reference.

[beamishboy]

you bet...i know i am preaching to the wrong choir..but when the problem is latd at the feet of 'guys w/ shovels' ..my umbrage kicks in...the greedheads that have run this country,the wallstreet wastrels are the real bums on the dole.

[gauf]

The politicians on both sides of the aisle are the real bums on the dole! Greed kills, but Socialism kills more! And that isn't revisionist history.

[pigeonca]

Isms kill the most of all.  Down with ideologies!!  Nothing is particularly clear-cut in this world, and I can't think of any -ism that acknowledges its own uncertainty.  That to me is the biggest problem.