Supplements

This forum is a wealth of information -- I just wanted everyone to know that, and I'm sure  everyone agrees.   I have read about all different kinds of supplements and get confused.  I take a multi vit., extra calcium (1200 mg total--I'm female/55), Omega-3, CoQ10 and a probiotic....I stopped Milk Thistle as I "think" I read somewhere not to take this, but now I'm not sure.  Can someone post what they may know on Milk Thistle.  Thank You, thank you!!

[Bill1954]

You

[Bill1954]

Good grief; this forum used to support the apostrophe font used by MS Works (but not Word) prior to the change of format. Can anyone tell me why it now only supports it *occasionally*?

A totally befuddled Bill....

[Tater-ToT]

LoL... They Have SOFTWARE ISSUES.... It's Not You!!!
Bless Your Heart!!

I know I made a post the other day & it wound up looking like some gibberish encryption or something!

When they first made the transfer I created a syntax (sp) error or something by my use of appostrophes ect... I can't remember what it was now... or if they are using appache or pearl.... but it has some bugs they are working out & it has to be sorrected on their end!

Maybe try using Note Pad or something!
;)

[Bill1954]

"Thanks, Vicki!" LOL!

[ChrisDDD]

My two cents' worth, my doc advocates taking Milk Thistle while OFF treatment, but never DURING treatment or within a couple of months beforehand for the reasons others here have stated.

[Bill1954]

Geez, I was trying to be cute by putting aprostrophies around my answer, using the same MS Works edit. That post accepted them?

Oh well, change the things I can, accept the things I can't....

Bill

[friole]

Hey Bill - never catch you online.  How is treatment going?  Have you been able to keep up those 8 miles a day?  Still on -- what is it - 2000 monster ribas a day?
bean

[frecklesmom]

my doc supports milk thistle- i think they usually go by nih standards or findings

[orphanedhawk]

I took milkthistle prior to tx and will start again after. I'm glad to be swallowing 6 less pills a day, especially on those days when I can't tell if I'm hungry or nauseous.

[Forseegood]

the reason why a lot of people like MT for liver disease is because it cleans liver pathways (I forgot the name of it) which prob isn't very good if youre on treatment cause you want the drugs to stay in the system as long as possible, one would think...so that's why I've heard it isn't good to take on treatment...there are some who do and swear by it...I'm allergic to it myself...

[Tater-ToT]

Bill... I Like your philosophy, LoL

As Per Milk thistle... I was Told NOT to take it on TX... so I didn'y...although I never asked why!

Humm!

[tallblonde1]

Are you treating, or planning to treat?  If you're taking the "watchful waiting" approach (as I've done for the past 3.5 years since being diagnosed), there are many other supplements you might consider taking.  For example, turmeric and ginger both have strong anti-inflammatory properties (as does fish oil).  Sam-e is another one that is quite beneficial to the liver, along with improving your mood and alleviating joint pain (a true "wonder drug").  Schizanda is another remarkable supplement that's known for lowering the viral load.

I'm also a big fan of a product that's available through Vitacost.com  It's called "Healthy Liver, Version 2."  It's the most affordable way to get virtually all of the most highly recommended supplements for HCV, including Milk Thistle, Alpha Lipoic Acid, CoQ10, NAC, etc. in one pill.

And speaking of NAC (N-Acetyl Cysteine), I highly recommended taking about a gram of this daily in three divided doses.  It is a very potent anti-viral.  And don't forget your Vitamin C and E.  I take 2 grams of C and 800 mg. of E daily.

Committing to such a protocol is pricey, no doubt, but I feel great after three years of strict adherence to it (along with drinking 3-4 cups of white tea daily).  

Is is working?  Well, my last viral load test was an astounding 180 I.U./mL and my liver enzymes are finally in the high end of the normal range.  My Fibroscan and Fibrosure tests both say I'm a Stage 0-1.  My biopsy three years ago said I was at Stage 1, so my liver definitely hasn't gotten worse, and may even have improved.

Good luck to you!

Susan

[tallblonde1]

I meant to say above that Schizandra is known for lowering LIVER ENZYMES, not VL.  Sorry.

[jmjm530]

TB: Well, my last viral load test was an astounding 180 I.U./mL
------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow. LOL. Sounds like you might be one of those rare birds that has a shot at eliminating the virus without drugs. I just wonder -- and it's only that -- if whether just a couple of shots of Peg and riba in conjunction with your strong immune system could push you over into SVR. Something maybe to discuss with the Boston doctor if you're still in touch.

Since you've been away, a list of supplements have been posted several times which I believed has been compiled from several sources, including some recommended by a medical researcher who visits here on occasion. Love to get your opinion if you're up to it.

Good to see you posting again and hope this finds you well -- List follows:

-- Jim

For glutathione boosting:

2 gms NAC (N Acetyl Cysteine)
2 gms ALC (Acetyl-L-Carnitine)
600 mgs Alpha Lipoic Acid
1200 mg SAM-e
Ursadiol (by prescription only in U.S.)


For general immune health:

3-4 caps Lactobacillus “GG” - Vitamin Research Product w/
1 sip of Lactulose (pure polysacchiride)
TMG (betaine)
EPA 1500 mgs w/ proportionate amount DHA


Anti-Fibrotics:

1gm Taurine
2700 mgs Polyenphosphatidyl Choline (*Phos Chol by NutraSal or
Hepatopro by LEF)
800-1200 IU Vitamin E
2-3 mgs Melatonin at bedtime, delayed delivery
500 mg Resveratrol – **LEF (should be 40% resveratrol content)
1 mg Mega Green Tea – LEF
1 mg Mega Silymarin – LEF
2 caps Curcumin – LEF

[jmjm530]

Also "Lactulose (sp?)" has been mentioned as something to take.

[tallblonde1]

I'm on my way out the door and won't be able to respond to you in detail until later tonight or tomorrow.  However, I must quickly tell you that Dr. A proposed the very same thing you suggested.  He said it wouldn't surprise him if one shot of interferon would wipe it out in my case.  I'm not sure if I believe it could be that easy, but maybe it's worth considering.

Gotta run...I'll respond to your list of supplements later.

Susan

[jmjm530]

Hmmm. Great minds think...LOL.

I think it's worth a try. Maybe pre-dose with riba for three weeks and then one or two shots of Peg. Maybe even skip the riba. As you know, I'm no fan of Peg -- and less now then when I was treating -- but I doubt one or two shots would have any long term negative effects.

Catch you later on the other stuff.


-- Jim

[tallblonde1]

One more quick thought...

I highly recommending searching the archives for Califia's posts.  I learned so much from her on herbs, vitamins and supplements.  I may know a lot after three years of intensive self-study, but I still don't hold a candle to her.  

More later...

[jmjm530]

I think the list I posted is partly/mostly hers. Not sure because she hasn't posted here recently. As you may or may not know, we have an MD (Hepatitisresearcher aka "HR") who posts here at times and is also into supplements. He's the one I believe who recommends the Lactulose. He also has his own Fibroscan machine in the LA area.

-- Jim

[Kalio1]

Yes it is Califia's list, and when posting it it should be attribured to her and also to HR as his input on the items on the list and the dosages are also very valuable.

[swahnzong]

Susan--

Hooray! I'm glad you're posting again, and hope you stick around. I don't post often, because I am not on tx. At present, I am attempting to implement what I've learned from this forum, various websites, and books in regard to vitamins, herbs, anti-oxidants, etc.

Basically, I am taking all the supplements that were mentioned in your above-post, with the exception of the herb, ginger. I also take olive leaf extract as an anti-viral, as suggested by another very helpful poster on this board.

I have learned a lot from the archives--(your posts as well as Califia's.) It's great that you are doing so well, and hope I can say the same when I visit my gastro in the near future.

Take care!  

[jmjm530]

Kalio: Yes it is Califia's list, and when posting it it should be attribured to her and also to HR as his input on the items on the list and the dosages are also very valuable.
----------------
Good point. I asked that question in the following thread when Goofy posted the list but no one, including you, gave me a definitive answer. But since you brought up HR, could you please tell us what part of the list is from Califia and what part is from HR. I believe I also asked that question in another thread, and also got no answer. Thanks.

http://www.medhelp.org/forums/Hepatitis/messages/45071.html

[Forseegood]

there's one on every board huh?.....anyway....yeah, I'm in pretty close proximity to what youre taking, a few dosages are different, I realllllly like the schizandra though, boy, that stuff is good...as well as the NAC, glad youre doing so well...

[Kalio1]

Yhe entire list was worked out or approved with HR.

The dose he recommends of laculose is one sip a day.

[tallblonde1]

Before Breakfast (on an empty stomach):

SAM-e 400 mg
Acetyl L-Carnitine 1.5 grams (for my peripheral neuropathy and brain fog)
N-Acetyl Cisteine 600 mg.
Probiotic 1 cap (Ultimate Flora Adult Formula, Renew Life brand)

After Breakfast (on a full stomach):

Health Liver 2 capsules (from Vitacost.com)
Centrum Silver Multi-Vitamin 1 tablet
Fish Oil 500 mg (Nature's Way "Fisol" Brand)
Vitamin C 1 gram (slow release)
Vitamin E 200 IU (Gamma E Tocopherol Complex)
Green Tea 500 mg
Schizandra 1 gram (Nature's Way)
St. John's Wort 300 mg
Evening Primrose Oil 500 mg (for my peripheral neuropathy)
Aspirin 81 mg. (enteric coated)
Ginger 1 gram
Turmeric (Curcumin) 900 mg

After Lunch:

Healthy Liver 2 capsules
Fish Oil 500 mg.
Alpha Lipoic Acid 300 mg
Green Tea 500 mg
CoQ10 100 mg
Schizandra 1 gram
Acetyl L-Carnitine 1.5 grams

At Bedtime:

Healthy Liver 2 capsules
Fish Oil 500 mg
Vitamin C 1 gram
Vitamin E 200 mg
Magnesium 500 mg
Calcium 1 gram
St. John's Wort 300 mg
Evening Primrose Oil 500 mg
Tumeric 900 mg
Ginger 1 gram
N-Acetyl Cisteine 600 mg
Digestive Enzyme (Digest More from Renew Life brand)

Note:
I get all of my vitamins and supplements online from Vitacost.com  I've never found another source with better pricing.  Unless specified above, all of the listed items are Vitacost's house brand "NSI."

If some of my dosages seem small, it's probably because the Healthy Liver Capsules contain more of the same ingredients, such as ALA, NAC, CoQ10, Vitamin E, etc. And, of course, I didn't list Milk Thistle, because it's the primary ingredient in the Healthy Liver.  The six capsules I take daily provide nearly 1 gram.

I'm not suggesting this protocol will lead everyone to the same results I have.  Just thought I'd share what I'm doing.  

Susan

[jmjm530]

Forsee: have you ever tried Good Karma Organic Rice Cream?
----------------------
Sounds very California to me :) Whatever happened to the Sushi? Also gluten and dairy free.

-- J

[tallblonde1]

Just wanted to say hi to both of you.  Thanks for the warm greeting.

Susan

[tallblonde1]

I also take 300 mcg of melantonin at bedtime.  This is a much smaller dose than what you listed, but I sleep like a baby every night on this amount.  

Melantonin is a very powerful hormone and I'm afraid to take too much of it.

Susan

[jmjm530]

TB: In reviewing the list you provided, I can pretty much tell which items were recommended by Califia and which ones came from HR.
----------------------------
Since Califia and HR haven't been posting recently, would you mind breaking them down or do I just subtract from what I posted in "C14" your list and then come up with what HR added?

TB:

Are you taking some/all of these things? After achieving SVR, is it necessary to take anything? Just curious.
---------------------------
Currently I'm not taking anything but a multi w/o iron, Omega 3's, Probiotics and sometimes a baby aspirin. That said, I am starting to do some research in terms of getting my immune system/metabolism better balanced. Be it with Chinese herbs (from reputable sources this time); supplements as listed; whatever.

Like many who have treated, the only improvement I've noticed from treatment is when I look at my blood labs and see normal enzymes and no detectible virus.

Physically and mentally, the treatment drugs not left me any better, to the contrary. Persistent skin and digestive problems and more problamatic, a deteriorating lipid profile, especially troublesome to someone like myself with a family history of cardiac problems. My treating doctor finally admitted that the interferon is known to worsen the metabolic syndrome.

No regrets on treating -- didn't have much of a choice as I was told between stage 3 and 4 -- but these drugs really can do a number on your immune and metabolic systems. Therefore the post treatment research to try and get back to where I was physically and mentally BEFORE I treated. So in a more direct answer to your question "is it necessary to take anything?" -- the answer is probably yes, but what to take post treatment may be different than what to take pre-treatment like in your case. And then there are our own individual medical histories to take into consideration.

You are one wise lady with your watch n' wait approach, including the supplements whose role I didn't understand very well way back then.

In case you wake up one night with the irresistible urge to treat, below is some bedside reading in case you missed these threads on some of the post treatment side effects being reported here.

That said, what Dr. A and I mentioned -- one or two shots -- is a different story, so do let us know if you end up pursuing that.

Thanks again for the supplement info and hopefully you'll be around from time to time.

All the best,

-- Jim

Links on post treatment side effects:

http://www.medhelp.org/forums/Hepatitis/messages/41434.html
http://www.medhelp.org/forums/Hepatitis/messages/41439.html
http://www.medhelp.org/forums/Hepatitis/messages/41446.html
http://www.medhelp.org/forums/Hepatitis/messages/41492.html
http://www.medhelp.org/forums/Hepatitis/messages/41498.html
http://www.medhelp.org/forums/Hepatitis/messages/41506.html
http://www.medhelp.org/forums/Hepatitis/messages/41513.html
http://www.medhelp.org/forums/Hepatitis/messages/41515.html

[jmjm530]

To clarify on what HR added to Califia's list --  would that be anything not listed in your protocol list (C26) but listed in what I posted in "C14".

Thanks.

[Eisbein]

The list came from HR. Califia was good enough to put it together for us.
She took many of the supplements prior to talking with him, but he felt some of her dosages needed to be increased to yield better results.

Ina

[tallblonde1]

These must be HR's recommendations, because I don't recall Califia commenting on them:

Ursadiol
Lactulose
TMG
Taurine
Resveratol
Curcumin (or Turmeric)

I do know that taurine is recommended for epilepsy.  I give it to my epileptic dog (along with phenobarbitol, posstassium bromide, and Keppra) and it's definitely lessened the severity of his weekly seizures.  Not sure why taurine is recommended for folks with HCV.

I'm sorry to hear that you continue to have post-tx problems.  How long have you been taking the probiotics?  I've noticed considerable improvement in my IBS since taking the probiotics AND digestive enzymes and consuming high-fiber foods.  Have you heard about Brenda Watson's H.O.P.E. formula?  Google it.

The other thing that I strongly believe has made a big difference for me is SLEEP.  I make sure that I get a full 8 hours of sleep every night.  A lot of healing takes place during sleep and I don't want to short-change myself of any healing.

Susan

[tallblonde1]

Not sure if you saw the message I posted to you last week (the thread was removed).  I said I was happy to read about your SVR and wished you continued healing of your post-tx sides.

I also said God bless you...

Susan

[jmjm530]

Thanks for further clarification. But Susan does bring to light an important issue when she asked if it was necessary to take these things AFTER treatment. My understanding is that Califia, like Susan, hasn't treated yet? In any event, I would imagine that a list like this is not necessarily one list fits all people and that it would be modified depending on whether one has treated, how much liver damage, as well as I assume other health issues. Too bad Califia and HR aren't around to help clarify and hopefully people will not simply copy down the list and start taking what's listed without getting clarification on who exactly the list is intended for. I'll try and present this question to HR when he returns but I have a feeling his answer will be that it depends on the persons individual profile -- although he will no doubt say it more impressively :)

-- Jim

[tallblonde1]

Califia completed her second tx more than a year ago.  She failed monotherapy back in the early 90's and then did an extended round of combo treatment, which led to SVR.

[tallblonde1]

Califia used herbs and supplements during the 10-plus years between treatments and her Stage 2-3 remained the same throughout that period.  No progression.

[jmjm530]

I started the Probiotics a couple of months ago. Which ones do you take and what doses? Same with the digestive enzymes. Do you take fiber supplements like psyillium and/or Flax? Forseegood recommended something called "Ultimate Fiber" which is bascially Psyllium. I will look into the Brenda Watson's formula. Part of me wants to agressively treat the IBS but the other part thinks a lot has to do with stress although I've been stressed before and never had it. Right now I'm upping my aerobic exercise which might help the stress part so between that and the supplements discussed maybe I'll see some progress. Thanks again.

-- Jim

[tallblonde1]

Jim,

My probiotic and digestive enzymes are both from Brenda Watson's company...Renew Life.  I purchase them from Vitacost (much, much cheaper), rather than through her website.

Here's the important thing about probiotics...

If you're looking to enhance your immune system, you need a probiotic that is high in bifidobacterium.  Her product is ("Ultimate Flora Adult Formula").

Also, you need an enteric coated capsule.

I take one probiotic capsule in the morning and one digestive enzyme capsule ("Digest More" by Renew Life) at night.  I don't take any supplemental fiber because I get plenty from my diet.

Susan

[tallblonde1]

Jim,

Another important thing about probiotics...

Look for brands (like the one I'm using) that contain FOS (fructooligosaccharides).  These organisms are called "prebiotics" and they're basically "food" for the probiotics.  Live organisms, like probiotics have to stay healthy, so they require their own food source.  FOS is the food source.

[Eisbein]

Susan, I didn't see your post, and I was not sure if you saw mine, because the thread was removed.
I miss talking to you. I hope you understood what I meant by "brige over troubled water".
Give me a dinge ling if you are up to it.
2006 was a hell of a year.
Now I have been dx with osteoarthritis of the lumbar spine...finally something not Interferon related.
Ain't that a blessing, even though my back is killing me.

____________________________

Jim, the list is also for post treaters who want to help their livers reverse some stages.
Califia unfortunately has still many areas of stage 3 fibrosis, right next to areas of healthy liver tissue.
In conjunction with numerous post tx issues she felt an aggressive supplement regimen could be beneficial.

I think you are correct, everything depends on our individual cicumstances as to how much supplementation we need.
I swallow about 30 vitamins and supplements a day, but only a couple are specifically for the liver.
I target specific organs with my slew of pills, but my diet, out of necessety is so damn good, I feel I don't need to help my liver...I need to help my brain and get out of the funk, as well as my joints, eyes etc.

I think one can improve mightily with diet alone...that leaves lots of improvement on your part:)

Ina

[najeen]

This has been a really good thread on the use of supplements and thanks to all who have contributed.

[jmjm530]

Eisbein: think one can improve mightily with diet alone...that leaves lots of improvement on your part:)
--------------------------
HUH:) Just for the record, those cheese omelet/bacon/home fries bkfasts were only when I was on treatment. I've cut down significantly on fats and carbs recently but have noticed my metabolism is not working as well as it did pre-treatment. Hopefully, I can get things more in gear by a combo of better diet, more exercise, and probably a gradual introduction of some of the supplements listed. BTW what makes you think the interferon didn't accelerate the oteo with your spine? It seem to accelerate anything lurking just under the surface.

Be well and don't forget to report back on any laser research you're doing per my last thread. No rush on this since I'll probably wait until Fall.

-- Jim

[jmjm530]

Thanks again. I'm printing this thread out.

-- Jim

[Forseegood]

saw you on here and I thought about you...have you ever tried Good Karma Organic Rice Cream? (faux Ice Cream) Very, Very Vanilla? It's really good, I'm hooked (for dessert) no gluten, no dairy...at Trader Joe's for cheap, try it!

[tallblonde1]

Hi Jim,

In reviewing the list you provided, I can pretty much tell which items were recommended by Califia and which ones came from HR.  I'm taking just aout everything (and more) that Califia suggested.  I don't know much about the things HR listed, but will eagerly begin reading up on them.

Are you taking some/all of these things?  After achieving SVR, is it necessary to take anything?  Just curious.

Susan

[swahnzong]

Susan--

Thank you for your time and effort in posting your protocol. I truly appreciate it. Best wishes to you!

[GoofyDad]

Kalio: Yes it is Califia's list, and when posting it it should be attribured to her and also to HR as his input on the items on the list and the dosages are also very valuable.

Jim: Good point. I asked that question in the following thread when Goofy posted the list but no one, including you, gave me a definitive answer.

Jim: .....hopefully people will not simply copy down the list and start taking what's listed without getting clarification on who exactly the list is intended for.

Goof: That's why I was uncharacteristically quiet. If the folks wanted it attibuted, I figured they could handle it.

  

[tallblonde1]

You're welcome.  I hope your watchful wait is as successful as mine has been so far (knock on wood).

Take care,
Susan

[tallblonde1]

I responded to your above message, but they zapped it because it too personal, I guess.  Did you see it, or should I repost on the other forum?

Susan

[jmjm530]

Goof: Goof: That's why I was uncharacteristically quiet. If the folks wanted it attibuted, I figured they could handle it.
-----------------------------------------
Good point and partly what I was trying to say. The way the internet is, after a few rounds this list will have either Cortisol (or maybe Courtesan :)) on it for relaxation. LOL. BTW, from the other thread, we no longer use "radio" tires, the newer cars use "tv" tires. Thought you'd want to know.

-- J

[Eisbein]

I wrote to you on the other side under Forseegood's post to you. See you there.

Ina