Vitamins

[PasoPerson]

Hah!  I took so long typing out my post that it timed out, so here I go again.  

60 y.o. white female, Hep C, genotype 1a.  Diagnosed <2 months ago, dormant at least since mid-70s.  Just had biopsy.  Want to condition liver best I can before next dr visit (July 21).  

I would like y'all to comment on what you think of the following regime.  Keep in mind I must take Neurontin (anti-convulsant) and Paxil (two kids, 11 & 15, and I'm 60, grrr, LOL).  

Neurontin, 600 mg

[seaone]

sorry it was pasoperson/carolyn's post  re Hyaluronic acid
not susan's  
i also started new subject hope thats ok

don't really know whats preferred

[seaone]

susan tnhep all  

thank you for many fine posts on this topic

susan you wrote taking Hylauronic Acid, 20 mg

[Tallblonde]

You write:

"They will not make any significant or noticeable difference in the health of your liver..."


If that's the case, then why bother taking them?  I'm just a bit confused by the contradictions in your post.  

Susan

[cheriums]

Yes, definitely increase the ALA to 300 mg twice/ day. Not more, tho -- more is not better, here.  If you have any history of stomach trouble (hyperacidity or ulcers), avoid the NAC, which is hard on tender stomachs and can quickly reignite pain and sorrow.  If you try it, and get stomach pain, stop taking it.  The Milk Thistle might be better taken in divided doses.
All of these supplements are support, not treatment, you understand?  They will not prevent your liver disease from progressing.  Might (or might not) slow it down.  I don't mean to discourage you from taking supplements -- I did pre-treatment and do post-treatment -- I just think it's important not to let oneself slide into believing supplements are all that's needed.  (I've seen people go there, drifting down that ol' river in Egypt.)  They will not make any significant or noticeable difference in the health of your liver in the little time between doctor visits.  

[cuteus]

I thought I was the only golden girl with a teenager! I think you got me beat on that one. Mine is now 16 and I am 53. Cool!

[PasoPerson]

Yes, I sure do have you beat, but would just as soon not win this one!  LOL

Mine are 11 (daughter) and 15 (son) and full of it.  Amazing journey, parenthood.  

Thanks for writing.

[bon_vivant]

No Problem... Take your time,,,,
Yep, I Understand completely how things get hectic...

I'll be around...& Oh those latest pictures of your grandbaby are just gorgious.... my has he grown in the 6 weeks!

I'm thinking about you all the time too...
In the meanwhile, I am sending big ol heartfelt hugs your way.. & looking forward to talking with you!

Hang In There...
Vicki

[hepcgetlost]

Great thread! Thank you Susan X,TnHepguy , califia, and all for taking the time to research and share the good info. And I'm relieved that Vitamin C is okay, because I too have been taking it religiously for too many years to count. Plan to click on the links tomorrow morning...too late right now.

Califia, never got around to responding to your beautiful and heartfelt post to me below re: relapse fear. It really went straight to the heart of the matter. I know it helped me and probably many others. You must write for a living -- if you don't, you should start right now. I'm not usually an envious person, but your your talent and facility with language are  turning me a nice shade of chartreuse, which by the way is my favorite color these days

I've decided to live life big, relapse or no relapse. I'll do the regular bloodwork, take the right supplements, exercise, sleep right and  live my life like a warrior. I still want to sing while you dance and Chevy fiddles, even if I did relapse. So when you feel up to it, get Chevy and her fiddle so we can rock!!!

Frank, thanks for the lovely posts below re: my relapse.  Your support  and wise words mean more than you can imagine.

Vicki, haven't had a minute today to respond to your email. Things have been a little hectic, something you can relate to all too well. I hope to get to it tomorrow or Wednesday. In the meantime, know that I'm thinking of you a lot.

I am thankful for all of you in my life...take care and keep up the good fight.
Judi :-)

[Califia]

Atta girl!   That's the spirit.  And thanks so much for the reminder  about life before tx, and hopefully after tx....  

Eerily enough chartreuse has always been one of my favorite colors, too.   It so happens that the first ceramic "art" I made as a child was a big lumpy chartreuse colored Sycamore leaf.  And there's even a patchwork of chartreuse and violet and bright scarlet in the garden just outside my window right now.

Colorful characters just have to keep on flaunting it, I suppose.

[PasoPerson]

A heartfelt THANKS to each of you for taking the time to answer this thread to the best of your knowledge.  You guys are the best!!  I am honored to be a part of this group, would rather other circumstances, but am honored nonetheless.

Thank you again, each of you.

Carolyn

[PasoPerson]

Thank you, all of you, for your insight.  Wow!  Interesting readng about Vitamin C!

I'll be out of town for two days, but will read additional posts tomorrow night.  Keep 'em coming!!

And thank you again, my friends.  God bless you and thank God for this site.

Carolyn
<///><

[scruffy]

We need to do what we can with the information we can find.Caution is wise but doing nothing may be unwise.Information shared here can be investigated and considered by each of us individually. So much more can be found by many then by one. I very much appreciate the info shared by those of you who take the time and effort to do so.This would be the long way to say "thanks". frank

[Califia]

Vicki, I second the "egads" on the Vitamin C study.  Still, the bottom line is how the study was structured and the summary doesn't give us any insight into that.  

Scruffy, back at ya.

TB, aargh!

[Tallblonde]

TnHepGuy e-mailed this to me last month.  This study suggests that Vitamin C might actually increase fibrosis in folks with Hep C.  I cut back on my dosage (3 grams daily) after reading it.  Califia, let me know what your opinion is.

Susan



Liver International
Volume 25 Issue 3 Page 518  - June 2005
doi:10.1111/j.1478-3231.2005.01049.x

Clinical Studies
Antioxidant levels in peripheral blood, disease activity and fibrotic stage in chronic hepatitis C
Priyanka Bandara1, Jacob George1, Geoffrey McCaughan2, Daya Naidoo3, Ora Lux3, Chris Salonikas3, James Kench4, Karen Byth5 and Geoffrey C Farrell1
Abstract:

Background: This study addressed the suggested association between levels of the antioxidants glutathione (GSH), vitamin C and vitamin E in peripheral blood and the histological activity and fibrosis stage in chronic hepatitis C (CHC). We then determined whether regular antioxidant supplementation influenced these antioxidant levels or disease severity.

Methods: Clinical, biochemical, histological and demographic data were collected from 247 CHC patients at the time of liver biopsy. Whole blood total GSH, plasma vitamin C and E were assessed by high-performance liquid chromatography. Statistical analyses were performed to test for associations between the variables and to identify independent predictors for hepatic necroinflammatory and fibrosis scores.

Results: GSH and vitamin C, but not vitamin E correlated with both portal/periportal activity (r=0.19, P=0.004; r=0.19, P=0.009 respectively) and fibrosis stage (r=0.18, P=0.007; r=0.18, P=0.009 respectively). GSH was an independent negative predictor of portal/periportal inflammation (P=0.02) and fibrosis (P=0.01). Vitamin C was an independent negative predictor of fibrosis stage (P=0.02). Antioxidant intake was associated with higher vitamin C (P<0.0001) and vitamin E (P=0.005) levels, but not GSH.

Conclusions: Whole blood GSH and plasma vitamin C are negatively associated with hepatic portal/periportal inflammation and fibrosis stage in CHC. Controlled intervention studies with vitamin C and agents that boost endogenous GSH levels are warranted.

[TnHepGuy_]

<a href="http://www.hivandhepatitis.com/hep_c/news/2005/ad/062905_b.html">Milk Thistle: Effects on Liver Disease and Cirrhosis and Clinical Adverse Effects</a>

<a href="http://www.hivandhepatitis.com/hep_c/news/2005/ad/062905_a.html">NIH Requests Applications for Clinical Studies of Milk Thistle in Chronic Liver Disease</a>

[TnHepGuy_]

<a href="http://www.hivandhepatitis.com/hep_c/news/2005/ad/070105_a.html">The Search for Improved Treatments for Chronic Hepatitis C</a>

[Tallblonde]

Oh...so Vitamin C is good?  I guess I interpreted the report wrong.  Thanks for clearing that up.

Hope you're feeling good these days and that your garden is thriving.  Picked my first cherry tomato this morning!  

Susan

[Xenigma]

My suggestion is to up the Vitamin C
to 1-2 grams (1000-2000 mg) of C per
day in 4 divided doses. 1000 IU's of E is
quite a bit. Vitamin E stays in the body for a long time and
can reach toxic levels so taking more of it is not better. (It's fat soluble not water soluble) Especially when the liver is not working up to it's potential.
It also depends on if you are taking synthetic E or natural E.
The max I would take is 400 units of the E per day.
You can either take 1- 400IU pill per day or buy the 200 IU and take one in the am and one in the pm.
Just my 2 cents...
Happy Independence Day everyone!
Hope you are enjoying the long weekend.
Enigma

[Califia]

Well, here goes.  Since Scruffy recommends being cautious, I just have to suggest that you push the envelope in a couple of places.  Maybe bring the Vitamin C up to a gram (divided doses) and and up the ALA to 300 mg 2x daily.  And also increase the selenium.  I've been known to take 800 mg of selenium daily without any problem.  400-600 mg is probably a better regular dose, though.  You could also add a gram of N-Acetyl Cysteine to your regime.  And last but not least  I wonder about that much biotin unless it's balanced out by large doses of the B-complex...can't remember clearly, but I think you have to increase B6 and folic if you're increasing biotin.    Does this sound familiar?  

Oh, don't forget extra zinc in addition to what's in your multi.  It just might be helpful in enhancing the effect of interferon.   If I were more awake I'd look up the study for you, but I'm not and it's easy to find if you do a search.  

Btw, I did the same thing you're doing before starting tx.  It's a bit like going into training for some kind of marathon. So another thing:  don't forget to exercise as much as possible now.  Keep it moving while you can because tx could well slow you down later on.  I really believe this is as important as cranking up the vitamins and minerals to therapeutic dosages.

Hope you'll find some of this useful.

[bon_vivant]

Egads.... Susan Thanks for passing this on... !!!

I'm not even going to tell ya'll how many milligrams of that I have been taking daily for more than 20 years... WoW

Makes me wonder how many others have been doing high doses for years.... I always did it because I smoked back then.. well up until last Nov. & I know that smoking depletes the vitamin C.

As per REGULAR Daily Vitamins... I know that many here take centrum silver due to iron content... but all my docs thus far have told me to take either Flintstones, or scooby doo chewables... twice a day.... they said that adult vitamins were not Regulated by the FDA, & that Children's Vitamins were.... they said we pay higher prices for the adult vitamins... & unless you do your homework on all the labels, that you never know what you are getting...

Have you or anyone else heard of this??? Now you have me wondering what else I Shouldn't be taking... Hummm!!

:) Vicki

[TnHepGuy_]

This particular study actually concludes that vitamin C and glutathione (GSH) - which is found in N Acetyl Cysteine - can potentially be beneficial when it comes to liver histology (though they are suggesting further targeted studies).

(from the paper):

"<i>Conclusions: Whole blood GSH and plasma vitamin C are negatively associated with hepatic portal/periportal inflammation and fibrosis stage in CHC.</i>"


It might help in understanding by looking conversely: a <b>positive</b> association with hepatic portal/periportal inflammation and fibrosis stage would mean that the study would determine GSH and vitamin C as being potential factors in <b>increased</b> histological damage. What they conclude is just the opposite. They find a <b>negative</b> association between the either vitamin C or GSH and any higher levels of liver damage. (They could not determine any correlation (positive or negative) with vitamin E and histology in this study.)


Sometimes the way that they word these studies can seem to stand things on it's head.


On a personal note, after I failed mono therapy in 1993 I looked into various things to take to try and beneift my liver. I ended up taking (among others) silymarin (Milk Thistle), N Acetyl Cysteine, and vitmain C for years. That is until chronic kidney stones put an end to any further supplementation via vitamin C.


TnHepGuy

[LukeL]

It seems you are into homeopathic medicine if so I would reccomend you go to www.mercola.com His site has a lot of great advice on how to treat common medical problems through natural means and he is an acreddited docotor so you need not worry.

[scruffy]

One recommendation would be to take the milk thistle 3x daily instead of at one time-if that was'nt a typo. There are plenty of things to read about and consider for liver health. Do your homework and be cautious. My best to you. frank

[PasoPerson]

Adele - Hi and thanks for posting!  Nice to see your name here; makes me feel more comfortable.

LukeL & Moeymitt - Thanks for your comments.  I appreciate all the insight I can get.